Wisconsin Wrestling Online

Hey All,

This message is mostly for those head coaches of the programs/schools who haven't voted yet on what next year's weight classes should look like.

I know many coaches around the state have already had their AD's place their vote on what they want next year's weight classes to look like.  From the sounds of the chatter I'm hearing, most people are torn between 13 or 14 weight classes.  So I'm just posting to share my opinion (and experience) on the matter and hope folks take a minute to read what I have to share.

I feel like I have a unique viewpoint on the debate between 13 and 14 weights, as I feel like the debate is often regarding teams that have a lot of forfeits/open weights vs. teams who fill most of, if not all their weights.  I've been in both situations and want to share my experience in both.

When I took over the Aquinas wrestling program 15 years ago, we weren't very good.  In fact, to be blunt, we were really bad. I finished my first season as head coach with 9 or 10 kids on my whole roster and we won ONE dual that year. We forfeited anywhere from 4-6 matches that year depending on the dual. The 2nd year we had more kids out, but often still forfeited several weights.

While our total team member numbers has steadily risen over my time here, so has our success. The last several years, we've had to forfeit a weight or two in some duals due to injury or sickness at times, but for the most part, have had 14 weights for almost every dual and tournament we've entered.

Looking back on this history of our program, having only 13 weight classes when we had only 9 or 10 kids wouldn't have helped grow our program, nor would it have helped with our success in terms of wins or losses.  I think folks sometimes think that by having only 13 weights, that duals will simply become more competitive.  I believe that's a false premise.  The only thing only 13 weights will do is make the strong teams even stronger. The Kaukauna's, Marshfield's, Luxemburg-Casco's, Prairie du Chien's and Fennimore's of the world will only become STRONGER dual teams.  And on the opposite end of the spectrum, the teams that fill only 6, 7, 8 or 9 weights like we once did, won't become more competitive simply because there's only 13 weights now instead of 14.  We still would've won only 1 dual my first year coaching here at Aquinas even if we had only 13 weights.

Everyone of us here is for growing the sport of wrestling. Cutting a weight class simply does not help grow the sport of wrestling. In my mind, it's actually counterintuitive to try and grow something by cutting something out of it.

There will be 40 less wrestlers next year at the state meet if a weight is cut. Were there 40 wrestlers at this year's state meet that you feel shouldn't have been there?  I can't think of one who didn't earn the right to be there and experience the thrill of wrestling on the floor of the Kohl Center.

Some have argued that fewer teams will co-op if we go to 13 weights.  Again, having one less weight for a team that only fills 6, 7 or 8 weight classes will not affect whether they decide to co-op or not. I know as I've been there and had discussions about co-oping with another area program when I first started here.  Had there been only 13 weights, the co-op discussion would've been the exact same.

Some argue that the state tournament would be more competitive.  This they are correct about, as there will be essentially the same amount of kids for less weights to choose from.  While this may be better from a fans standpoint in terms of watching wrestling, who is this sport really here for-the kids or the fans? I'm here for the kids, as I know every coach who sits in the corner is as well.

I think ultimately the weights discussion comes down to one question.  "Does cutting one weight help grow the sport of wrestling?" 

I know my answer to the question above, and I'll let each of you come up with your own.  Again, I'm not looking to start a proverbial fight here on the forum, I just wanted to share my experiences having been in both situations of having a team with several forfeits to now having 35+ kids in the room and rarely having to forfeit outside of an injury or illness.

Thanks for your time and consideration, and get those votes in if you haven't already! 

Deke Stanek
Head Wrestling Coach
La Crosse Aquinas High School

Well said! I agree with you 100%

If you want to eliminate an upper weight, vote for 13 weights. If you want to eliminate a lower and upper weight, vote for 12.

I favor sticking with 14.

Keep it how it is!

Did going from 12 to 13 and 13 to 14 grow wrestling?

14 classes is great for the sport.

 Every state championship last weekend was well deserved. Every bracket had kids wrestling state-title worthy wrestling, but falling short of the title due to the great competition. 

You really aren't helping anyone out by cutting a weight.

.....same old (unconvincing) arguments.

Seems like anyone who takes the time to post on this topic has their minds already made up.

Quote from: whatever on March 01, 2023, 06:08:23 PM.....same old (unconvincing) arguments.

Seems like anyone who takes the time to post on this topic has their minds already made up.

Pot...kettle

I know the survey is already out and all but here would be my opinion.

Keep the weights the same for ALL tournaments. State series included.

Drop the number of weight classes for dual meets. Get as many wrestlers quality varsity matches and put the duals in the coach's hands week to week.

14 weight classes for Individual and 12/13 for all duals. Some schools would have to sit some studs

I'm probably in a very small minority but I think the ideal situation is 12 weight classes:

105, 115.....college weights.

If the WIAA goes to two divisions in just a few years, as is the discussion, we will lose far more than 40 kids at State.
A proactive restructuring of weights lead by head coaches and the WWCA could at the very least buy several more years. This 14 weight experiment has gone on for 20 years. It hasn't increased numbers as many of us (myself included) envisioned it would. Going to 15,16,17, weights would not increase numbers. The higher number of weight classes vs lower number of weight classes simply changes the perception of what is a full team, close to full, half full, that administration tends to see. A team with 9 wrestlers across 12 weights is simply a different animal than 9 wrestlers across 14 weights.
I'm not saying that going to 12/13 weights will add the thousands of kids we no longer have out for the sport (girls wrestling might be what helps with that) but it can change the perception. There will still be forfeits, just an average of fewer of them. A team giving up 18 points in ff certainly can be a dual team threat vs giving up 30 points. Same number of wrestlers, very different outcomes. Teams with 9 kids now are often avoiding team tournaments, as they already know the outcome. Going to 12 weights and that team can be competitive, they can win! What does that do in your wrestling room, your school, your community? It creates positive vibes and energy. What can that do? Get more kids to participate.
While I love that we have the number of qualifiers at State that we do, I worry much more about the overall package and experience of our sport at the local level. I'm voting 12 and hoping for a few more JV matches and opportunities along the way.

Quote from: Handles II on March 02, 2023, 07:45:29 AMIf the WIAA goes to two divisions in just a few years, as is the discussion, we will lose far more than 40 kids at State.
A proactive restructuring of weights lead by head coaches and the WWCA could at the very least buy several more years. This 14 weight experiment has gone on for 20 years. It hasn't increased numbers as many of us (myself included) envisioned it would. Going to 15,16,17, weights would not increase numbers. The higher number of weight classes vs lower number of weight classes simply changes the perception of what is a full team, close to full, half full, that administration tends to see. A team with 9 wrestlers across 12 weights is simply a different animal than 9 wrestlers across 14 weights.
I'm not saying that going to 12/13 weights will add the thousands of kids we no longer have out for the sport (girls wrestling might be what helps with that) but it can change the perception. There will still be forfeits, just an average of fewer of them. A team giving up 18 points in ff certainly can be a dual team threat vs giving up 30 points. Same number of wrestlers, very different outcomes. Teams with 9 kids now are often avoiding team tournaments, as they already know the outcome. Going to 12 weights and that team can be competitive, they can win! What does that do in your wrestling room, your school, your community? It creates positive vibes and energy. What can that do? Get more kids to participate.
While I love that we have the number of qualifiers at State that we do, I worry much more about the overall package and experience of our sport at the local level. I'm voting 12 and hoping for a few more JV matches and opportunities along the way.

Assuming you have 9 wrestlers I doubt you will need any jv opportunities. Coaches that vote for 12 and have 9 wrestlers are just lazy and are hoping to stay relevant, but sorry to say if our team of 24 wrestles your team of 9 in 12 weight classes the outcome will be the same or worse. I've said it before, our school has 200 kids we have 24 boys out in high school, 20+ in middle school and 70+ in K-4th. Build a program not just a high school team.

Quote from: Willie on March 02, 2023, 10:50:45 AMAssuming you have 9 wrestlers I doubt you will need any jv opportunities. Coaches that vote for 12 and have 9 wrestlers are just lazy and are hoping to stay relevant, but sorry to say if our team of 24 wrestles your team of 9 in 12 weight classes the outcome will be the same or worse. I've said it before, our school has 200 kids we have 24 boys out in high school, 20+ in middle school and 70+ in K-4th. Build a program not just a high school t

This 100%

I also think we should stop looking at college weights. Those only apply to the 1% then end up in college.

220 to 230
285 to Unlimited. 

We aren't acknowledging that kids are getting bigger.

Regarding a move from 14 to 12 or 13 weight classes, IMO you cannot be in favor of new weight classes without knowing what they would be would be even if you are the most vocal supporter of reducing weight classes.  Doing so is irresponsible and lazy.  We cannot evaluate a situation based on numbers (forfeits and small brackets), and then use our heart to decide which weight classes need to be eliminated or moved.  Where are the forfeits and the unfilled weight classes?  That's what needs to drive the choice on weight classes if they are going to change.

So, to provide some numbers, I did a quick pass on grabbing numbers from regionals from this year by division and weight class, and here are the 4 weight classes by division with fewest wrestlers at regionals across the state (I could have just listed 3 and it would have been ALL lower weights 106-120 for D1 and D2, and 106, 113, and 126 for D3):

In D1, it was 106, 113, 120, and 285.
In D2, it was 106, 113, 120, and 220.
In D3, it was 106, 113, 120, and 126.

Did anybody expect that data?  To be honest, I didn't.  The weight classes I expected to have the fewest wrestlers were 106, 113, 195, and either 220 or 285.  I guess that demonstrates just a little bit how dangerous it is to form opinions about numbers without actually looking at the numbers.

Adding up all 3 divisions, the lowest wrestler counts across the state were in 106, 113, 120, and 126.

With those numbers, if the desire is to reduce weight classes, where should they be???

I realize this is a small sample size, it's just this year.  I'm not sure how far back we can go given the advent of girls state and what it's impact may be on the number of wrestlers at regionals.  Maybe someone has those numbers from years before girls needed to choose which brackets they wanted to compete in?  Perhaps last years numbers would be useful too??

What are the new proposed 12 and 13 weight classes, and are they trying to address the issue from the upper end of the weight classes, or the lower end, or both??  If we are going to eliminate weight classes because we are trying to address weight classes where there are fewer wrestlers, and therefore forfeits and small brackets, and we primarily or only address it from the upper end of the weight classes, we are wasting our time based on these numbers.  If we reduce the weight classes because of wrestler counts, we absolutely have to use data to determine where the weight classes should be, and doing something like eliminating 182 looks completely insane when you look at these numbers..  182 and 195 didn't make the bottom 5 in wrestler count in any division.  I understand there will likely be other numbers available that have a little different perspective, but IMO these numbers should be enough to demonstrate that advocates of cutting weight classes need to stop with the one sided approach of looking primarily at the upper weights as the place to trim.  It should really be a conversation about where the weight classes should be, not just about what to cut, and the weight classes, as well as the gap between weight classes should be driven by the data (bell curve anyone?).  If you are advocating cutting a weight class, you must also be willing to consider movement at the lighter end of the weight classes (and not a pound like MN did), or you really aren't that interested in addressing the problems of forfeits and small brackets.

Below are the numbers from this years regionals:

D1         D2         D3   
106   90      106   66      106   49
113   79      113   69      113   57
120   88      120   63      120   59
126   95      126   76      126   55
132   107      132   82      132   62
138   107      138   84      138   65
145   103      145   89      145   67
152   108      152   88      152   65
160   110      160   82      160   69
170   97      170   89      170   61
182   102      182   78      182   62
195   102      195   77      195   64
220   100      220   69      220   63
285   93      285   72      285   64

INDIANAPOLIS, IN (April 20, 2021) — States will have a choice of 12, 13 or 14 weight classes for both boys and girls competition in high school wrestling, effective with the 2023-24 season.

This will be the first separate weight classes established for girls in high school wrestling, and it marks the first time that state associations will have a choice in the number of weight classes.

The landmark change in weight classes was one of several significant revisions recommended by the National Federation of State High School Associations (NFHS) Wrestling Rules Committee at its April 7-9 meeting held virtually this year. All recommendations were subsequently approved by the NFHS Board of Directors.

States must select one of the three sets (12, 13 or 14) of weight classes for girls and one of the three sets (12, 13 or 14) for boys. States cannot adopt all three sets and cannot switch back and forth during the season.

The following weight classes (in pounds) were established for girls competition (girls wrestling girls), effective July 1, 2023:

12 Weight Classes – 100, 107, 114, 120, 126, 132, 138, 145, 152, 165, 185, 235.

13 Weight Classes – 100, 106, 112, 118, 124, 130, 136, 142, 148, 155, 170, 190, 235.

14 Weight Classes – 100, 105, 110, 115, 120, 125, 130, 135, 140, 145, 155, 170, 190, 235.

The following weight classes (in pounds) were established for boys competition (boys wrestling boys or girls wrestling boys), effective July 1, 2023:

12 Weight Classes – 108, 116, 124, 131, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 190, 215, 285

13 Weight Classes – 107, 114, 121, 127, 133, 139, 145, 152, 160, 172, 189, 215, 285

14 Weight Classes – 106, 113, 120, 126, 132, 138, 144, 150, 157, 165, 175, 190, 215, 285

"Previous surveys have indicated a varying number of weight classes that states wanted, so the committee attempted to meet the needs of as many people as possible," said Elliot Hopkins, NFHS director of sports and student services and liaison to the Wrestling Rules Committee. "We have more and more state associations sponsoring girls wrestling and holding state championships for girls, so the committee believed it was time to establish uniform weight classifications for girls.

"The recommended weights were established based upon more than 215,000 assessments from the National Wrestling Coaches Association. We are excited about these changes to weight classes in high school wrestling as we believe it will provide more opportunities for male and female student-athletes to be involved in this great sport."

In another major change affecting risk minimization, a separate 5-minute time-out has been established for the onsite health-care professional to evaluate potential head and neck injuries involving the cervical column (HNC) and/or nervous system.

"There was a desire to establish a separate injury time-out that concerns the head and neck involving the cervical column and/or nervous system and not connect it with the existing 1½-minute injury time-outs or any other stoppage of the match," Hopkins said. "This separate time-out is supported and covered in existing rules that give the referee the authority to observe the signs, symptoms and behaviors of a concussion and respond appropriately."

As a result of the separate HNC time-out, which takes effect next year, a number of other rules in the 2021-22 NFHS Wrestling Rules Book will be altered.

The other significant change in high school wrestling rules for 2021-22 addresses the number of matches allowed in one day of competition. Currently, no wrestler shall represent the school in more than one weight class in any meet or wrestle in more than five matches, excluding forfeits, in any one day of competition.

A change provides an exception to Rule 1-4-3 as follows: "No wrestler shall wrestle in more than six matches (championship or consolation), excluding forfeits, in any one day of a tournament conducted by the state high school association for qualification to the state high school championships or the specific state championships."

This change was enacted as a result of a successful experiment by the Tennessee Secondary School Athletic Association. Hopkins said that increasing the number of matches from five to six would allow postseason tournaments with more than eight competitors in a weight class to complete the tournament in one day. He said, in many cases, this change would eliminate the need for schools to stay overnight to participate in respective state qualifying tournaments and state championship events.

"Since this exception would only allow six matches per day to be wrestled in the postseason qualifying tournament or state championship event, the impact on the total number of matches that an individual wrestles in an entire season would be minimal," Hopkins said. "We do not want to extend this change to the regular season, and this exception would not come into play for the majority of participants."

Two other minor changes were made in the rules for next year. Rule 4-5-7 no longer will require low-cut socks to be worn as a part of the weigh-in procedure, and one change was made in Rule 5-1-1 dealing with choice of position during bad time.

A complete listing of the wrestling rules changes will be available on the NFHS website at www.nfhs.org. Click on "Activities & Sports" at the top of the home page and select "Wrestling."

According to the most recent NFHS High School Athletics Participation Survey, wrestling is the seventh-most popular sport for boys with 247,441 participants in 10,843 schools. In addition, a total of 21,124 girls are involved in the sport in 2,890 schools.

Queue Ghetto....

Quote from: bigoil on March 01, 2023, 05:13:51 PMDid going from 12 to 13 and 13 to 14 grow wrestling?

No.  I think you basically validated his points.  # of weight classes, whether up or down, do not "grow" wrestling. Tons of other things already discussed on this forum grow wrestling and most to none are being done by majority of struggling teams.

Congrats to the original poster on growing what was once a struggling program...and not needing to cut opportunities in the hope that it works.

I do think going all the way to 12 would greatly help wrestling.

Everyone is correct that the best will only get tougher and it is not going to change anything with  teams with really low numbers BUT>>>

I would be 70% of the teams are caught in between.  These are the programs that would really benefit.  More competitive duals would happen.  More JV duals would happen.  Coaches would feel less pressure to put guys in a varsity spot when not ready.

I don't think some people realize the pressure coaches feel from AD's and such to fill a complete lineup.  They know a kid is not ready but feel compelled to make it look good.

In regards to the lightest weight classes having the fewest numbers of wrestlers I don't know how anyone does not realize that and also realize many of those are underclassmen not even ready for varsity.  The problem with the lightest weight classes is nobody can wrestle up because there are so few small kids.  There are probably not as many 195 and 220 lbers but when there are to kids at 182 then one can wrestle 195 or two 195lbers and one wrestles 220.  When kids can wrestle up they fill weight classes.

I personally would get rid of a lower weight and would get rid of an upper weight and then space out more from 150 up.  Lots of kids weighing 150-180 and they can wrestle up to fill weight classes.

Quote from: asdf on March 02, 2023, 01:30:29 PM

Quote from: bigoil on March 01, 2023, 05:13:51 PMDid going from 12 to 13 and 13 to 14 grow wrestling?

No.  I think you basically validated his points.  # of weight classes, whether up or down, do not "grow" wrestling. Tons of other things already discussed on this forum grow wrestling and most to none are being done by majority of struggling teams.

Congrats to the original poster on growing what was once a struggling program...and not needing to cut opportunities in the hope that it works.

OP: "Everyone of us here is for growing the sport of wrestling. Cutting a weight class simply does not help grow the sport of wrestling. In my mind, it's actually counterintuitive to try and grow something by cutting something out of it."

My counter is did adding weights help grow it? I think the answer is a resounding no. I have no proof that reducing weight classes will help grow or potentially decline the sport. I'm simply challenging the assumption because I think the data shows it did not grow the sport.

I have zero fight in the battle, I understand the points people made that reducing will make the likes of Kaukauna stronger but I think there are counters to that. If I have budding program, I'd prefer to take on 12 of the strongest team members rather than 14 because they likely have those extra 2 at or around the weight class and I as budding program likely don't.

It is also a huge perception to AD's when not filling a roster. Please don't denigrate those coaches that don't have a full room. Yes maybe a few are "lazy" but most are in the schools or involved in schools to attract those kids. Majority of Sports in general the past few years have seen a decline in numbers (wrestling numbers have been on a decline for decades) due to options for kids either in school or outside. 

14 is too many, look at dual meets from the past 5 years.  Almost every match ends in a fall.  There are way too many JV level/first or second year wrestlers thrown into the varsity lineup because there isn't anyone else on the team at the weight.  Those kids go out, get pinned in 30 seconds and do not come out for the team the next year. 

Going to 12 weights would lower the numbers significantly.

I would prove it for over a thousand dollars in 5 years.

With needing 14 wrestlers to complete a varsity team, wrestling needs to be better at retaining athletes than compared to any other sport.  Wrestling is horrible at wrestler retention. 

Take the 300 wrestlers at your local Saturday tournament.  Anyone want to make a guess at the % that wrestle in high school.

I would love to see a study on how many wrestlers that compete at all as a freshman actually wrestle all 4 years.  What is your guess on that percentage?

For the record I completely disagree that kids will quit if they are not on varsity.  Every kid may think he wants to be on varsity until he gets destroyed and never gets his hand raised.

We need fewer forfeits for more competitive duals but as said earlier we also need more competitive matches with fewer numbers of 1st period pins.

Quote from: rankwizard on March 02, 2023, 04:15:36 PMGoing to 12 weights would lower the numbers significantly.

I would prove it for over a thousand dollars in 5 years.

Why would it?

Because fewer kids get to wrestle on varsity? So they quit or don't come out?
Because fewer kids make it to state?  So they quit or don't come out?

What else am I missing?  What would be the causes?

Quote from: rankwizard on March 02, 2023, 04:15:36 PMGoing to 12 weights would lower the numbers significantly.

I would prove it for over a thousand dollars in 5 years.

Might

IDK what that last sentence means, but I'm willing to bet you $1000 that going to 12 does not reduce numbers as much as they've fallen over the past five years.

We know what is happening with 14.  13 is just a subtle move.  12 is a legitimate change.  Nobody can say what might happen.  In my opinion if you are against 12 or even 13 then you are likely just against change and speculating.

I also cannot speculate what will happen but I am up for a legitimate change to 12 to try it.  If nothing has changed for the better then change it back.  Why it takes 20 years to try something different is beyond me.  Often change and different helps.

But I would make a ton of other drastic changes also to bring change and make attempts at improvements

Quote from: DocWrestling on March 02, 2023, 04:47:40 PMWe know what is happening with 14.  13 is just a subtle move.  12 is a legitimate change.  Nobody can say what might happen.  In my opinion if you are against 12 or even 13 then you are likely just against change and speculating.

I also cannot speculate what will happen but I am up for a legitimate change to 12 to try it.  If nothing has changed for the better then change it back.  Why it takes 20 years to try something different is beyond me.  Often change and different helps.

But I would make a ton of other drastic changes also to bring change and make attempts at improvements

Your defense of cutting weight classes seems a bit flawed.

-So, you admit there are a "ton" of other changes and options to make improvements in retention. 
-So, you admit you have "no idea what might happen" by reducing weight classes.
-So, you state in a different post that 300 kids in a youth tournament never make it to a high school team.  So, basically we are all doing something drastically wrong way before high school that greatly affects retention.
-So, you and others admit the good wrestling programs that miraculously found a way to be successful in the exact same environment as your school will actually get better. So they will still come into your dual and boot stomp your kids, but with just by 6-12 points less via forfeits.


What is most telling to me is a coach came onto this forum and stated he turned around a struggling program to full roster and 35+ kids every year.  I don't see one post asking him to share his formula for success.  Clearly it can be done  It is unfortunate a select few want to keep the blinders on, don't even want to hear it, and are trying to bring down all the others schools that are succeeding.

I came from a team with a full JV and Freshman team in the 80's and my sons team won a team championship in 2020. I'm not necessarily on either side just don't like the arguments I've heard for keeping it at 14.

asdf,

I don't disagree with anything you said but I know that wrestling doesn't even have an interest in all the other changes that I believe could help.  I am not arrogant enough to say going to 12 weight classes will change anything but many believe the status quo is a problem.  I guess I like change because it is change.  Can you imagine if nothing was changed and 98lbs was still the lightest weight class?  That weight class only existed because there were no weight cutting rules.

I also know that fewer and fewer people are becoming coaches.  Fewer people want to coach and there a fewer paid wrestling coaches positions in the state than there ever have been.  If the answer is finding great coaches like the aquinas coach then wrestling is doomed.  All sports are declining in number of coaches as much as they are athletes.  Fewer of those special coaches exist.

I will say many of the changes I would like to see would make it easier on coaches and maybe more would want to coach.  Things like start season after Thanksgiving, have a dead period over christmas break, get rid of all the stress of weight descent plans.  Do the fat test and be done.  Then I would maybe lower the allowed events to 13 to give another weekend off.  Let the diehard wrestlers wrestle in open tournaments prior to Thanksgiving and during the holiday dead period.

I do absolutely agree that  head coaches can lead to wrestlers but pretty tough these days to find middle school and JV coaches as well as high school coaches.  Ask old AD's with open jobs. They barely get any applications anymore.  I run a 26 team tournament.  Every year there is at least a 25% turnover in coaches.  So many coaches come and go.

I think 12 is the right number for Wisconsin.  There would still be opportunities in tournaments to allow a team to bring a few extra varsity caliber wrestlers to fill brackets. 

There are wrestlers that miss matches with injuries too.  Most programs do not fill all the weights.  School enrollments are declining almost everywhere.  That is why this is a national movement to reduce weight classes (to keep the sport competitive).

Minnesota went to 13 with Junior High helping to fill the team.  I think most that argue reducing from 14 would make the same points if we were at 16 and wanted to go to 14.

Go to 13 weights and make it 16 qualifiers in all 3 divisions, but I would flip the number of schools per division and instead of 128-D1, 104-D2 and 105-D3 go with 105-D1, 112-D2 and 120-D3.

Quote from: hasbeen on March 03, 2023, 08:50:13 AMGo to 13 weights and make it 16 qualifiers in all 3 divisions, but I would flip the number of schools per division and instead of 128-D1, 104-D2 and 105-D3 go with 105-D1, 112-D2 and 120-D3.

That's not at all what is being voted on.

Go back to 12 weight classes.

And while they are reviewing weight classes lets dump the weight allowances... Unless mutli-day tournament, why do they continually increase weight throughout the year? Make the weight or move up!

Another thing to think about here is small schools being able to fill 14 weight classes with 150-300 kids in the entire high school. I believe the original poster coaches at a private d 3 school that pulls kids from a huge district as well as across the border.  I wonder how many of those kids are home grown and brought up in their youth program. We are starting to see the privates that can recuit become more and more prevalent in wrestling. Look what they have done to bb and football. True small schools and their kids have very little chance of competing for team state titles and i fear that is coming in wrestling. I wonder what the population of lacrosse is compared to say Lomira or Glenwood City or Blair Taylor. Simply not a fair fight.  Not blaming these coaches or programs just stating the facts. With the way it is trending little value is placed into building a program and there is alot of value in getting high school kids to transfer. With that being said for small schools that grow their own it is very difficult to fill 14 weights with quality wrestlers from top to bottom. Bigger schools and privates that are located in large cities have a distinct advantage. Interested to hear others thoughts on this.

Quote from: tex on March 06, 2023, 08:21:28 PMAnother thing to think about here is small schools being able to fill 14 weight classes with 150-300 kids in the entire high school. I believe the original poster coaches at a private d 3 school that pulls kids from a huge district as well as across the border.  I wonder how many of those kids are home grown and brought up in their youth program. We are starting to see the privates that can recuit become more and more prevalent in wrestling. Look what they have done to bb and football. True small schools and their kids have very little chance of competing for team state titles and i fear that is coming in wrestling. I wonder what the population of lacrosse is compared to say Lomira or Glenwood City or Blair Taylor. Simply not a fair fight.  Not blaming these coaches or programs just stating the facts. With the way it is trending little value is placed into building a program and there is alot of value in getting high school kids to transfer. With that being said for small schools that grow their own it is very difficult to fill 14 weights with quality wrestlers from top to bottom. Bigger schools and privates that are located in large cities have a distinct advantage. Interested to hear others thoughts on this.

Pretty sure if you just google the populations of those towns, you'd get answer.  I could be wrong.  Let me know, Tex.   

I wrestled D3 in the 90s and now coach D1 so have experienced both large and small schools.  With the quality of wrestling on the rise in Wisconsin (recent Fargo results), do we really want to reduce the number of wrestlers qualifying for the state tournament?  Many year round wrestlers are left out of the state tournament the way it is. 

It seems the #1 issue in wrestling is lack of participation but reducing weight classes does nothing to solve this.  Keep 14 weight classes and give the kids the most opportunities possible.

Quote from: tex on March 06, 2023, 08:21:28 PMAnother thing to think about here is small schools being able to fill 14 weight classes with 150-300 kids in the entire high school. I believe the original poster coaches at a private d 3 school that pulls kids from a huge district as well as across the border.  I wonder how many of those kids are home grown and brought up in their youth program. We are starting to see the privates that can recuit become more and more prevalent in wrestling. Look what they have done to bb and football. True small schools and their kids have very little chance of competing for team state titles and i fear that is coming in wrestling. I wonder what the population of lacrosse is compared to say Lomira or Glenwood City or Blair Taylor. Simply not a fair fight.  Not blaming these coaches or programs just stating the facts. With the way it is trending little value is placed into building a program and there is alot of value in getting high school kids to transfer. With that being said for small schools that grow their own it is very difficult to fill 14 weights with quality wrestlers from top to bottom. Bigger schools and privates that are located in large cities have a distinct advantage. Interested to hear others thoughts on this.

It's not just private schools but in Green Bay and Appleton with open enrollment, whether it is recruiting by coaches or kids, parent choices, there is definitely an impact in many sports, including wrestling.

We had the opportunity with some great football teams, to come up just short before getting clobbered by Catholic Memorial.

It seems like it is a topic everyone talks about but wiaa is scared to touch. I suppose law suits ect.  I just do not like the fact that some d3 schools get their kids from their town of 1500 people and teach these kids wrestling from k-12, while other d3 programs are pulling from a town of 20000. Plus kids from other towns as well. It seems that these kids are learning wrestling elsewhere and then transfering together to a d3 school that has had nothing to do with them until they transfer.  One tries to build wrestlers the other seems to rent a kid. I have been around some of the best d3 coaches for a long time and it is ve r y very hard to get 14 quality kids spread out from 106 to 285. Many times it is not a lack of effort by coaches. There simply is not enough kids to get it done. 12 weights may help them compete. I would be interested to know from aquanis how many of their 14 starters have been with that program for 10 plus years.  Maybe i am wrong. I would love to see the numbers. In lacrosse i dont think there are any other real good programs to choose from. If i had a wrestler in that area i would probably consider sending them to a d3 private as well.

I noticed today the number of privates at state in smaller divisions for basketball. Still waiting for answer on aquanis number of kids that are home grown. Interested to hear from someone that actually knows.

Quote from: tex on March 12, 2023, 08:54:03 PMI noticed today the number of privates at state in smaller divisions for basketball. Still waiting for answer on aquanis number of kids that are home grown. Interested to hear from someone that actually knows.

You should ask for the number of their kids that are transfers.... and then look up their varsity wrestlers to see which ones went to a different school in years past. Next year they'll have a great chance to take down Fennimore, which is what they're trying to do.


As for the original topic, I would vote 14 but I'm alright with 13 also.

A lot of good arguments for 13 or 14 weight classes. However, based on the previous numbers provided earlier filling the lower weights are an issue. Why not find a solution for that? I think allowing 8th graders an opportunity to wrestle high school is a way to fill those weight classes. Likewise, this would also continue making the sport more competitive with there being many 8th graders ready for high school success. Other states do this currently and it seems to working just fine for them.

Quote from: WFactory19 on March 13, 2023, 08:56:52 AMA lot of good arguments for 13 or 14 weight classes. However, based on the previous numbers provided earlier filling the lower weights are an issue. Why not find a solution for that? I think allowing 8th graders an opportunity to wrestle high school is a way to fill those weight classes. Likewise, this would also continue making the sport more competitive with there being many 8th graders ready for high school success. Other states do this currently and it seems to working just fine for them.

That isn't being voted on, unfortunately.

Coaches should give everyone a chance to wrestle varsity. Fill the weight classes. Participation is the key. Actually going from the practice room to the mat is the key. Want parents more involved, let them watch their kid wrestle varsity.

And regionals... allow more than 1 wrestler per team per weight. Let as many kids try to qualify as want to.

Can't tell you how many 'duals' I've been to where a varsity slot could have been taken by a jv kid, even if he/she was going to get beat. Losing is part of learning.

With the 13 weight proposal from Minnesota, a kid like Mulvaney doesn't win a title.

It is true though that life isn't fair and never will be.

Quote from: ThumbWrestler on March 13, 2023, 03:37:46 PMCoaches should give everyone a chance to wrestle varsity. Fill the weight classes. Participation is the key. Actually going from the practice room to the mat is the key. Want parents more involved, let them watch their kid wrestle varsity.

And regionals... allow more than 1 wrestler per team per weight. Let as many kids try to qualify as want to.

Can't tell you how many 'duals' I've been to where a varsity slot could have been taken by a jv kid, even if he/she was going to get beat. Losing is part of learning.

One of the reasons we are even voting on less weights is that we don't have enough kids. Throwing kids out there to get their tails kicked is definitely a reason (excuse) that kids quit. They don't stick around if they get mangled week after week.

Someone far smarter than me had this suggestion, so I take no credit for it. And yes, I know we aren't voting on this.

Why not have 12 weights during the regular season, and go to 14 for the state tournament series? Qualify for team state by winning your conference dual tournament or something. Football somehow knows how to do a playoff system. Why not us?

Then there's no argument on "this kid can't make it to state cuz we cut one weight". It also brings the number down for duals, reduces the time tournaments take, and a million other reasons why we might cut weights in the first place.

I voted for 12 weights, and did so with 50 kids on our team.  I have no problem recruiting kids and having healthy numbers and filling 14 weights.  I coach football to do just that.  With that said even with 50 kids in the room, it is a real struggle to fill all 14 weights with Varsity caliber wrestlers and I absolutely hate wrestling kids varsity before they are ready.  The vast majority of my wrestlers come out for the first time in high school.  Personally with 12 weights, I would hope that it would lead to more JV opportunities or JV duals.  Our JV wrestlers need that team aspect to keep them engaged and motivated.  The more comradery we can build with those new wrestlers, the more likely we are to keep them out and grow the sport in my opinion. 

Quote from: CoachC on March 14, 2023, 10:28:47 AMI voted for 12 weights, and did so with 50 kids on our team.  I have no problem recruiting kids and having healthy numbers and filling 14 weights.  I coach football to do just that.  With that said even with 50 kids in the room, it is a real struggle to fill all 14 weights with Varsity caliber wrestlers and I absolutely hate wrestling kids varsity before they are ready.  The vast majority of my wrestlers come out for the first time in high school.  Personally with 12 weights, I would hope that it would lead to more JV opportunities or JV duals.  Our JV wrestlers need that team aspect to keep them engaged and motivated.  The more comradery we can build with those new wrestlers, the more likely we are to keep them out and grow the sport in my opinion. 

What is your definition of "varsity caliber"?

Just because a kid can't rack up a winning varsity record and compete for a spot at individual state doesn't mean that they can't hold a varsity spot.

Varsity caliber
Is it 25-30 winning percentage (excluding forfeits)?
Or maybe does not lose in less than 6 minutes more than half the time?

Quote from: rankwizard on March 14, 2023, 12:43:23 PM

Quote from: CoachC on March 14, 2023, 10:28:47 AMI voted for 12 weights, and did so with 50 kids on our team.  I have no problem recruiting kids and having healthy numbers and filling 14 weights.  I coach football to do just that.  With that said even with 50 kids in the room, it is a real struggle to fill all 14 weights with Varsity caliber wrestlers and I absolutely hate wrestling kids varsity before they are ready.  The vast majority of my wrestlers come out for the first time in high school.  Personally with 12 weights, I would hope that it would lead to more JV opportunities or JV duals.  Our JV wrestlers need that team aspect to keep them engaged and motivated.  The more comradery we can build with those new wrestlers, the more likely we are to keep them out and grow the sport in my opinion. 

What is your definition of "varsity caliber"?

Just because a kid can't rack up a winning varsity record and compete for a spot at individual state doesn't mean that they can't hold a varsity spot.

Anyone with a .200 winning percentage was the line for me, though it should probably be higher in an era of scrambles.

Imagine if in baseball, they just took an out every time a "non-varsity caliber" player came to bat, or you played without a 2nd baseman because he isn't,"varsity caliber". If he/she is the best kid you have at your school, that's your varsity.  I use them for duals for sure. Part of the chess match. Individual tournaments are at the discretion of the coach on how to develop them. Most varsity tournaments allow for more matches against opponents of the same caliber later in the tournament. If you can go 0-2,1-2 at some tournaments, and get better. Learn to battle first. Wrestling is tough, so is life. just sayin

Quote from: Coach V on March 15, 2023, 07:46:59 AMImagine if in baseball, they just took an out every time a "non-varsity caliber" player came to bat, or you played without a 2nd baseman because he isn't,"varsity caliber". If he/she is the best kid you have at your school, that's your varsity.  I use them for duals for sure. Part of the chess match. Individual tournaments are at the discretion of the coach on how to develop them. Most varsity tournaments allow for more matches against opponents of the same caliber later in the tournament. If you can go 0-2,1-2 at some tournaments, and get better. Learn to battle first. Wrestling is tough, so is life. just sayin

There are times that you haven't sent out a kid though, so there is discretion that you do use.

I've seen kids who could have used development on jv, but the team I coached was always short kids and we sent out raw freshman, they weren't in the room sophomore year.

Kids badly want to be on varsity to say they are on varsity.  Then they seldom get their hand raised and see teammates who are even better than them having more fun winning on JV.  They soon realize being on varsity because they weigh the right amount is not that great and then the shine is off.  Hopefully the coach recognizes soon enough or that kid is done wrestling.

Truth is that this happens most in the light weights because that is where most of the holes in lineups are.  There are a ton of stud lightweights but so many others that should not be varsity.

I think...
1) There should be a different amount of weights for duals and tournaments
2) There should be different weight classes for JV duals.  They are younger wrestlers primarily and weigh less so all the weight classes should be 4-5 lbs less for JV.
3) All JV events should use weight classes and stop treating JV's like they are in a 3rd grade local tournament

Quote from: Coach V on March 15, 2023, 07:46:59 AMImagine if in baseball, they just took an out every time a "non-varsity caliber" player came to bat, or you played without a 2nd baseman because he isn't,"varsity caliber". If he/she is the best kid you have at your school, that's your varsity.  I use them for duals for sure. Part of the chess match. Individual tournaments are at the discretion of the coach on how to develop them. Most varsity tournaments allow for more matches against opponents of the same caliber later in the tournament. If you can go 0-2,1-2 at some tournaments, and get better. Learn to battle first. Wrestling is tough, so is life. just sayin

EXACTLY! We have all seen this in multiple sports. What about the team that isn't varisty caliber? Should they be forced to only wrestle JV? If a basketball team goes 4-20 should they be forced to only compete on the JV level? We are our own worst enemey....

If you cannot understand that wrestling is different then I don't know what to say but here goes.

Wrestling is one on one out there all by yourself.  Completely different than a team sport hiding and inexperienced kid in a team competition.

Wrestling is a combat physical sport.  It is more intense because of that.  Nobody likes getting beat up anywhere especially on a mat all by themselves with friends and family watching.  Is there any sport that is more humiliating than going out on a mat and getting whipped and pinned?  I agree it can build great character but may not be enough for that wrestler to keep coming back for more.

 Being on varsity does not keep kids in the sport.  Heck getting a letter does not even mean much anymore.  The one thing that keeps kids wrestling is validation for their hard work by getting their hand raised.

Quote from: DocWrestling on March 15, 2023, 10:41:29 AMIf you cannot understand that wrestling is different then I don't know what to say but here goes.

Wrestling is one on one out there all by yourself.  Completely different than a team sport hiding and inexperienced kid in a team competition.

Wrestling is a combat physical sport.  It is more intense because of that.  Nobody likes getting beat up anywhere especially on a mat all by themselves with friends and family watching.  Is there any sport that is more humiliating than going out on a mat and getting whipped and pinned?  I agree it can build great character but may not be enough for that wrestler to keep coming back for more.

 Being on varsity does not keep kids in the sport.  Heck getting a letter does not even mean much anymore.  The one thing that keeps kids wrestling is validation for their hard work by getting their hand raised.

Actually it does in a lot of cases.

Doc- baseball- pitcher vs batter- 1 on 1- strikeout- kinda the same as a pin. Error in the field, getting scored on, if it gives up a run, then its giving up a major, 2 runs- a tech, etc

1- Different weight classes for duals and tournaments is a tough with weight decent plans and who wrestles when, but it is an interesting concept- would have to see the weights and think some more.

2- again, could be problems if you need them on varsity sometimes with different weights. I do like the lower weight class for them.

3- agree. Tough with lower numbers at some tournaments and we want mat time for JV.

Big Oil- that's the chess match  ;)

Huge difference in the analogy of throwing a JV kid out there for basketball or baseball when you need someone in your lineup.  99% of the time in those sports the JV kid has played the sport before, understands the rules and has been in a live situation before.  In wrestling these first year kids when thrown into varsity matches don't know the rules, do not know how to cover in referees position, have no idea how scoring works, lock their hands, run full-nelsons, etc. 

Quote from: DocWrestling on March 15, 2023, 10:41:29 AMIf you cannot understand that wrestling is different then I don't know what to say but here goes.

Wrestling is one on one out there all by yourself.  Completely different than a team sport hiding and inexperienced kid in a team competition.

Wrestling is a combat physical sport.  It is more intense because of that.  Nobody likes getting beat up anywhere especially on a mat all by themselves with friends and family watching.  Is there any sport that is more humiliating than going out on a mat and getting whipped and pinned?  I agree it can build great character but may not be enough for that wrestler to keep coming back for more.

 Being on varsity does not keep kids in the sport.  Heck getting a letter does not even mean much anymore.  The one thing that keeps kids wrestling is validation for their hard work by getting their hand raised.

Do you hide a guy on the football field, volleyball court, or basketball court?? I am pretty sure opposing teams will know the weak points.

Quote from: Junkyardpig on March 15, 2023, 11:48:49 AMHuge difference in the analogy of throwing a JV kid out there for basketball or baseball when you need someone in your lineup.  99% of the time in those sports the JV kid has played the sport before, understands the rules and has been in a live situation before.  In wrestling these first year kids when thrown into varsity matches don't know the rules, do not know how to cover in referees position, have no idea how scoring works, lock their hands, run full-nelsons, etc. 

Also, in team sports there are ways to hide weak spots, even on great teams. Also, in team sports, one may not be adapt to offense or defense, but often times they can perform the other. My daughters basketball coach only allowed 3 members to shoot the ball in important games, lost about 10 games in 4 years. In baseball, a strike out is 1/9th and equal to a ground out (sometimes worse, sometimes better) and an improvement is 3 to 4 out of 10, not exactly the same as always giving up 6.

Not all non-varsity caliber kids have never wrestled before but the point is the same when throwing a freshman or sophomore out there against a kid two years older and at a complete and different time in maturity and strength. Striking out is one on one with the pitcher but there is a catcher and other players on the field so it is a little different mentally.  But the main difference is basically that when you strike out you did not lose.  You made an out.  And you did not physically brawl and get beat. 

Truth is kids can know wrestling but mentally they are not ready to go out on their own and brawl if that makes sense.  Wrestling, boxing, MMA, etc. are just fights with rules.  Being mentally ready may be more important than physically ready and is more important than knowing fundamentals

So when is the voting by the coaches completed and does the voting actually determine how many weight classes there will be or is the vote just to provide the WIAA with information to make a decision?  Also, any idea when a decision will be made?

Great idea, this 14 to 12 thing.

Weaken the best programs. Take away two more chances for kids to wrestle varsity and participate in end of season tournaments.

Yeah, that'll build the sport.

Pretty simple... ask the KID if he wants to be on Varsity and get beat up. If he doesn't, great. If he does, great.

Also, now I understand that every kid that wrestles high school started when they were freshmen. Got it.

Good thing the girls aren't afraid to go on the mat and give it their best shot. What does that say about the boys you are trying to protect?

Sticking with my vote to keep all weight classes but let 7th and 8th graders participate in h.s. events.  ;D

Quote from: tyben on March 16, 2023, 10:53:22 AMSo when is the voting by the coaches completed and does the voting actually determine how many weight classes there will be or is the vote just to provide the WIAA with information to make a decision?  Also, any idea when a decision will be made?

Coaches give their recommendation to their AD. The AD gives their own and the Coach's recommendation to the wiaa. So it's not a true coaches vote.

Quote from: OneEyedFatMan on March 16, 2023, 03:19:38 PMSticking with my vote to keep all weight classes but let 7th and 8th graders participate in h.s. events.  ;D

No way. Ppl already holding their kids back for more high school advantage . Now they'll hold kids back in 5th grade.

Quote from: ThumbWrestler on March 16, 2023, 12:13:00 PMGreat idea, this 14 to 12 thing.

Weaken the best programs. Take away two more chances for kids to wrestle varsity and participate in end of season tournaments.

Yeah, that'll build the sport.

Pretty simple... ask the KID if he wants to be on Varsity and get beat up. If he doesn't, great. If he does, great.

Also, now I understand that every kid that wrestles high school started when they were freshmen. Got it.

Good thing the girls aren't afraid to go on the mat and give it their best shot. What does that say about the boys you are trying to protect?

The strongest programs aren't hurt by cutting weights. They probably get a bit stronger, but that's not the point. We have to look at wrestling as a whole and not individual programs.

Totally agree that there should be some conversation as to whether a kid should be pushed up to varsity when they may not be ready.

Quote from: rankwizard on March 15, 2023, 12:33:20 PM

Quote from: DocWrestling on March 15, 2023, 10:41:29 AMIf you cannot understand that wrestling is different then I don't know what to say but here goes.

Wrestling is one on one out there all by yourself.  Completely different than a team sport hiding and inexperienced kid in a team competition.

Wrestling is a combat physical sport.  It is more intense because of that.  Nobody likes getting beat up anywhere especially on a mat all by themselves with friends and family watching.  Is there any sport that is more humiliating than going out on a mat and getting whipped and pinned?  I agree it can build great character but may not be enough for that wrestler to keep coming back for more.

 Being on varsity does not keep kids in the sport.  Heck getting a letter does not even mean much anymore.  The one thing that keeps kids wrestling is validation for their hard work by getting their hand raised.

Do you hide a guy on the football field, volleyball court, or basketball court?? I am pretty sure opposing teams will know the weak points.

Yes, no clue, yes.

Of COURSE you can hide kids. You're also on the field with 21 other kids in Football. In Basketball, you put your worse defender on their worst offensive player. Do you follow Basketball? It's the Trae Young, Steph Curry(and on and on) philosophy. So they're doing it at the highest level.


Obviously Wrestling is different than all those other sports.

Quote from: ThumbWrestler on March 16, 2023, 12:13:00 PMGreat idea, this 14 to 12 thing.

Weaken the best programs. Take away two more chances for kids to wrestle varsity and participate in end of season tournaments.

Yeah, that'll build the sport.

Pretty simple... ask the KID if he wants to be on Varsity and get beat up. If he doesn't, great. If he does, great.

Also, now I understand that every kid that wrestles high school started when they were freshmen. Got it.

Good thing the girls aren't afraid to go on the mat and give it their best shot. What does that say about the boys you are trying to protect?

 ::)  ::)

Who's making a new account just to come on here and play the intentionally obtuse/snide role?

Yes, the argument has CLEARLY been that nobody wrestles before High School. I remember seeing that dozens(or zero) times in this thread. The point has been made that some Wrestlers are lost because they're pushed out there before being ready. Do you really not believe this happens?

Or is your only rebuttal something ridiculous that OBVIOUSLY nobody ever said or inferred?

Second, you think just "asking the kid," is the way to go? Yes...HS Boys are notoriously not influenced by what their peers think of them.


And if all else fails...just throw it out there that the boys aren't as tough as the girls! That's right! Insult their manhood! I mean, that's REALLY the best way to "grow the sport." ::)  ::)  ::)

Truth is that the overwhelming majority of teams do have to rely on wrestlers that just started wrestling as freshman or later.  People are always on here saying coaches have to get out and recruit.  Well they are recruiting kids that have never wrestled.

In my opinion it is also much easier for 182+ weight newbie to come in and compete because the wrestling is a little less technical.  A small wrestler really needs to learn how to wrestle.  I have seen heavy football players come in and able to compete fairly quickly.  Much tougher in the light weights.  If you weigh less than 106 as a freshman and have not wrestled before you probably have not played too many other physical sports.

Voting was done by March 15th
Coaches Advisory Board meets March 29th to make its recommendation to the WIAA. This starts the process.

Matt

Quote from: Vir Fortis on March 19, 2023, 12:41:38 PM

Quote from: ThumbWrestler on March 16, 2023, 12:13:00 PMGreat idea, this 14 to 12 thing.

Weaken the best programs. Take away two more chances for kids to wrestle varsity and participate in end of season tournaments.

Yeah, that'll build the sport.

Pretty simple... ask the KID if he wants to be on Varsity and get beat up. If he doesn't, great. If he does, great.

Also, now I understand that every kid that wrestles high school started when they were freshmen. Got it.

Good thing the girls aren't afraid to go on the mat and give it their best shot. What does that say about the boys you are trying to protect?

 ::)  ::)

Who's making a new account just to come on here and play the intentionally obtuse/snide role?

Yes, the argument has CLEARLY been that nobody wrestles before High School. I remember seeing that dozens(or zero) times in this thread. The point has been made that some Wrestlers are lost because they're pushed out there before being ready. Do you really not believe this happens?

Or is your only rebuttal something ridiculous that OBVIOUSLY nobody ever said or inferred?

Second, you think just "asking the kid," is the way to go? Yes...HS Boys are notoriously not influenced by what their peers think of them.


And if all else fails...just throw it out there that the boys aren't as tough as the girls! That's right! Insult their manhood! I mean, that's REALLY the best way to "grow the sport." ::)  ::)  ::)

Strongman...(giggle)...
Spent past 15 years involved in wrestling. Had 4 boys all wrestle. One started Jr year. Another Freshman year. One in middle school and another in 3rd grade.

Just because I signed up to make a comment on this under-utilized wrestling forum that gets 4 posts/week, doesn't make me a newbie. But looking at your posts, I see you just got off the short bus so I'll leave it at that.

The cure to wrestling woes begins at the youth level. Engage kids by making  the sport fun, not just grueling. Talk to the Alpha parents. Have their kids recruit their friends. Make practices not only challenging, but rewarding.

Right now there is too much emphasis on winning. Parents need to back off. Heck, one of my kids one year lost every match by pin in middle school. Did he quit like you expect kids to? No, became a HS state qualifier. Teach the love of the sport - the internal gratification that comes with trying your best.

Surround these kids with great coaches early... not just the clubs and tournaments, but form grade and middle school teams. Put your excellent coaches there and the rest (high school) will take care of itself.

Quote from: Vir Fortis on March 19, 2023, 12:41:38 PM

Quote from: ThumbWrestler on March 16, 2023, 12:13:00 PMGreat idea, this 14 to 12 thing.

Weaken the best programs. Take away two more chances for kids to wrestle varsity and participate in end of season tournaments.

Yeah, that'll build the sport.

Pretty simple... ask the KID if he wants to be on Varsity and get beat up. If he doesn't, great. If he does, great.

Also, now I understand that every kid that wrestles high school started when they were freshmen. Got it.

Good thing the girls aren't afraid to go on the mat and give it their best shot. What does that say about the boys you are trying to protect?

 ::)  ::)

Who's making a new account just to come on here and play the intentionally obtuse/snide role?

Yes, the argument has CLEARLY been that nobody wrestles before High School. I remember seeing that dozens(or zero) times in this thread. The point has been made that some Wrestlers are lost because they're pushed out there before being ready. Do you really not believe this happens?

Or is your only rebuttal something ridiculous that OBVIOUSLY nobody ever said or inferred?

Second, you think just "asking the kid," is the way to go? Yes...HS Boys are notoriously not influenced by what their peers think of them.


And if all else fails...just throw it out there that the boys aren't as tough as the girls! That's right! Insult their manhood! I mean, that's REALLY the best way to "grow the sport." ::)  ::)  ::)

He wasn't insulting anyone. You are twisting his words. Girls do go out there to compete against guys knowing they'll lose but it aint about winning for everyone... it's about competing. Not everyone gets a winning record.

Coaches can manage their kids better if they feel some kid doesn't want to go out there. Ask Kaukauna or other top programs that have to send out a "sub-varsity" wrestler in the starting lineup because they don't happen to have a "varsity caliber" wrestler at that weight class in the given year.

I know several dozen teams that maybe want HWT eliminated under your line of reasoning, because they don't have a legit hwt. Probably over 100 teams want HWT eliminated according to your logic.

62.8 percent of the D1 teams in Wisconsin had 12 or less kids on their regional roster.

Why are you bringing numbers into this debate?  I thought it was supposed to be all about opinions and emotions and feelings?

Quote from: Ghetto on March 22, 2023, 10:46:53 PM62.8 percent of the D1 teams in Wisconsin had 12 or less kids on their regional roster.

40.38% (42 of 104 schools) of Division 2 teams had 12 or more wrestlers at Regionals

27.27% of (27 of 99 schools) Division 3 teams had 12 or more wrestlers at Regionals

Quote from: whatever on March 23, 2023, 02:51:31 PMWhy are you bringing numbers into this debate?  I thought it was supposed to be all about opinions and emotions and feelings?

 ;D

Quote from: RWargula on March 23, 2023, 03:29:47 PM

Quote from: Ghetto on March 22, 2023, 10:46:53 PM62.8 percent of the D1 teams in Wisconsin had 12 or less kids on their regional roster.

40.38% (42 of 104 schools) of Division 2 teams had 12 or more wrestlers at Regionals

27.27% of (27 of 99 schools) Division 3 teams had 12 or more wrestlers at Regionals

We are doing different math.

74.0% of D2 schools had 12 or less at regionals

Quote from: rankwizard on March 22, 2023, 07:49:41 AM

Quote from: Vir Fortis on March 19, 2023, 12:41:38 PM

Quote from: ThumbWrestler on March 16, 2023, 12:13:00 PMGreat idea, this 14 to 12 thing.

Weaken the best programs. Take away two more chances for kids to wrestle varsity and participate in end of season tournaments.

Yeah, that'll build the sport.

Pretty simple... ask the KID if he wants to be on Varsity and get beat up. If he doesn't, great. If he does, great.

Also, now I understand that every kid that wrestles high school started when they were freshmen. Got it.

Good thing the girls aren't afraid to go on the mat and give it their best shot. What does that say about the boys you are trying to protect?

 ::)  ::)

Who's making a new account just to come on here and play the intentionally obtuse/snide role?

Yes, the argument has CLEARLY been that nobody wrestles before High School. I remember seeing that dozens(or zero) times in this thread. The point has been made that some Wrestlers are lost because they're pushed out there before being ready. Do you really not believe this happens?

Or is your only rebuttal something ridiculous that OBVIOUSLY nobody ever said or inferred?

Second, you think just "asking the kid," is the way to go? Yes...HS Boys are notoriously not influenced by what their peers think of them.


And if all else fails...just throw it out there that the boys aren't as tough as the girls! That's right! Insult their manhood! I mean, that's REALLY the best way to "grow the sport." ::)  ::)  ::)

He wasn't insulting anyone. You are twisting his words. Girls do go out there to compete against guys knowing they'll lose but it aint about winning for everyone... it's about competing. Not everyone gets a winning record.

Coaches can manage their kids better if they feel some kid doesn't want to go out there. Ask Kaukauna or other top programs that have to send out a "sub-varsity" wrestler in the starting lineup because they don't happen to have a "varsity caliber" wrestler at that weight class in the given year.

I know several dozen teams that maybe want HWT eliminated under your line of reasoning, because they don't have a legit hwt. Probably over 100 teams want HWT eliminated according to your logic.

Suuuure he wasn't!

QuoteGood thing the girls aren't afraid to go on the mat and give it their best shot. What does that say about the boys you are trying to protect?

So...then what DOES it say?

QuoteAlso, now I understand that every kid that wrestles high school started when they were freshmen. Got it.

Yup. That's ME twisting words!

LOL...the other guy isn't even worth responding to.

Quote from: Ghetto on March 23, 2023, 03:45:31 PM

Quote from: RWargula on March 23, 2023, 03:29:47 PM

Quote from: Ghetto on March 22, 2023, 10:46:53 PM62.8 percent of the D1 teams in Wisconsin had 12 or less kids on their regional roster.

40.38% (42 of 104 schools) of Division 2 teams had 12 or more wrestlers at Regionals

27.27% of (27 of 99 schools) Division 3 teams had 12 or more wrestlers at Regionals

We are doing different math.

74.0% of D2 schools had 12 or less at regionals

I included teams that entered 12, 13, or 14 as "full teams"  as those are the number of weight classes that are being debated.  I assume you included 12 as teams that "were not full", hopefully that makes sense.  I feel like we are on the same page overall.

Does anyone know when we are expected to hear a decision on weight classes from the WIAA?