Lots of opinions on this one. No doubt AWA has improved the quality of our best wrestlers. His actions have only hurt the college program which is having success despite his stubbornness.
I wish Ben would put his ego away like adults need to do sometimes and truly work to improve Wisconsin wrestling at all levels.
So, by your logic he can only be good for the State of Wisconsin if he supports the Badgers? A lot of mud keeps getting slung in Ben's direction. Has anyone every stopped and asked what about the other side? Let's not forget that Ben was hired to run their RTC. Was that not him putting his ego aside for the betterment of Wisconsin Wrestling. He Still had a club to run. Does this door only swing one way? Why are there so many former wrestlers that had ties to Bono that no longer do? Moran, Brown, Burwick to name a few. To me this has to work both ways. AWA has zero obligation to UW. I get fans wanting their college team to be good but some of you are just downright silly in your blind allegiance.
I would say Askren is very good for Wisconsin wrestling. I don't know the specifics of his program, but by increasing the interest and the skills of many, many kids it definitely helps the sport here. It is obvious that he can train some kids to be great, but I'm also guessing that other kids become better than they were - even if they don't necessarily have greatness in them. The more that kids get better, the level of competition rises and other kids get better and slowly but surely the overall skill level improves. It may not be easy to see or to measure - besides looking at the great kids - and it may take some time, but it certainly is happening and will continue to do so. Is he good for Wisconsin Badgers wrestling? Probably not directly especially given some of the current attitudes. But I still believe that by helping more and more kids improve Askren (and others like him) have a very strong net positive on the overall level of wrestling in our state.
Wouldn't it be way more self-serving for Bono to repair the relationship with Ben then the other way around?? And sounds like Ben is more than happy to do a face to face, albeit in a public forum. Anyway, my point is people can bash Ben for WI not getting recruits but it isn't Ben's job to get kids to go to the Badger's, it's coach Bono's. So if a club coach feels his wrestlers will get a better college wrestling experience outside of the state of Wisconsin, the ownness falls on coach Bono to prove him wrong and prove that kids can have a great college wrestling experience and be successful at the UW. People can bash Ben until they are blue in the face, and some of it may be for good reason, but the lack of WI high school wrestlers not going to UW isn't Ben's problem to solve, it falls squarely on coach Bono's shoulders.
And Ben is great for the state of WI wrestling...period!!
The real people that are hurt in this are the AWA high school wrestlers. Some (not all) of them are very likely being influenced out of the opportunity to wrestle for their home state school, be closer to home for family and friends to attend, compete in the best Conference in the country and most importantly lose out on the education of a top 10 public university (vs Missouri that isn't even in the top 50). I feel sorry for those kids
No matter what you think about Ben Askren, this thread is BS.
He's a person. Whatever your beef is with him, go talk to him. Making a blanket statement about whether he is good or bad for wrestling is taking a direct shot at him and his livelihood. And those who defend him and denegrate Chris Bono as a person are doing the same thing.
This thread is bad for wrestling.
Quote from: Ghetto on December 01, 2022, 09:28:39 AMNo matter what you think about Ben Askren, this thread is BS.
He's a person. Whatever your beef is with him, go talk to him. Making a blanket statement about whether he is good or bad for wrestling is taking a direct shot at him and his livelihood. And those who defend him and denegrate Chris Bono as a person are doing the same thing.
This thread is bad for wrestling.
Sorry for the rant, I've been somewhat quiet lately on purpose but wanted to share my thoughts.
1) My personal opinion (believe it or not as a Bono friend and fan) is that Ben is GREAT for Wisconsin Wrestling. His growing track record of preparing high level division 1 talent cannot be questioned. That is good for the state and Ben will continue to train and churn out top kids (the 2024 class is just a tease hopefully of how good the state will get with AWA, Nazer, Crass, RT, etc all hitting their stride with kids training them for longer and longer).
2) Agree with you that the way this topic was presented as a personal question about Ben is questionable but the feud/complete stop of any top level AWA wrestler going to the UW while Bono is head coach is a real thing that the state wrestling fans who enjoy both Wisconsin HIgh School wrestling AND the Wisconsin Badgers AND are fans of AWA should be able to discuss (as rationale adults). It's a Real issue and until the feud is resolved (many have said it will never be resolved), I don't believe any top level AWA wrestler will attend the University.
3) I have heard many close to the situation say "Ben wants Chris fired". I don't think Ben has kept it secret that he wants Chris fired. That is definitely attempting to affect Chris's livelihood. On the flip side, I don't believe (or at least I haven't heard) of anyone with the University saying "don't attend AWA", etc in a way that would hurt AWA's livelihood. It's just been fans on this forum. Both shouldn't happen.
4) Wisconsin is 100% NOT the best school for every athlete. However, with all they have going for them (top 10 academic school, closer to home than 99% of D1 schools for Wisconsin high schoolers, #1 best college sports town ranking, etc, etc), I would think it should be at least considered for ANY athlete of the state. If they decide to go elsewhere, at least they considered it (like Greyson did). It is my understanding that many of the top kids are not even considering Wisconsin, not even willing to meet with the coaches to learn about the school or see if it is a fit. There are 82 programs. I've been told some of these kids are ranking Wisconsin 83 on their list of schools (exaggeration but you get my point). I think that's unfortunate for a student athlete that COULD have a good experience (athletically and academically and socially) at Wisconsin.
5) I truly hope they can work this feud out. I hope Bono is head coach for a long time. I hope AWA continues to prosper for a long time! They can work together and help each other if they get over this!
Matt Deadman
Ben Askren is a great name and a big proponent of revolutionizing and improving wrestling each year. We all love the guy and what he can do. He inspires a ton of kids each year.
However, I'd like to know more about why UW is seemed to be so hated. I have friends at UW and they don't seem to know.
Quote from: novice wrestler on December 01, 2022, 09:03:11 AMThe real people that are hurt in this are the AWA high school wrestlers. Some (not all) of them are very likely being influenced out of the opportunity to wrestle for their home state school, be closer to home for family and friends to attend, compete in the best Conference in the country and most importantly lose out on the education of a top 10 public university (vs Missouri that isn't even in the top 50). I feel sorry for those kids
Don't understand this logic, at all. They're being hurt by turning in to elite wrestlers? By having more opportunities because of what they were taught at AWA? Are you saying that the parents and wrestlers are easily influenced? I recall others defending Ben stating he showed pride in his wrestlers no matter what college they chose.
I like seeing our state schools succeed, but Ben doesn't work for the UW.
Quote from: ckwrestler on December 01, 2022, 06:40:10 PMQuote from: novice wrestler on December 01, 2022, 09:03:11 AMThe real people that are hurt in this are the AWA high school wrestlers. Some (not all) of them are very likely being influenced out of the opportunity to wrestle for their home state school, be closer to home for family and friends to attend, compete in the best Conference in the country and most importantly lose out on the education of a top 10 public university (vs Missouri that isn't even in the top 50). I feel sorry for those kids
Don't understand this logic, at all. They're being hurt by turning in to elite wrestlers? By having more opportunities because of what they were taught at AWA? Are you saying that the parents and wrestlers are easily influenced? I recall others defending Ben stating he showed pride in his wrestlers no matter what college they chose.
I like seeing our state schools succeed, but Ben doesn't work for the UW.
You are missing the point, yes HS/club coaches can influence some kids and parents! They build a strong trust(which is not bad) but some kids/parents just dont have other reference points. Its called a pipeline to a certain school which is exactly what is going on at Missouri.(not a novel thing, happens in all sports) Look at Missouri's roster and the number of kids from WI compared to neighboring states and every kid from WI are AWA kids. And this has been going on for years, pre-dating the current UW staff.
Why can UW attract elite HS/club kids and even get great (AA) wrestlers to transfer in from other colleges and thrive but this isnt happening with elite AWA wrestlers??? Something smells a little bad and has been for many years.
100% agreed, Ben and Maxx owe nothing to UW and currently we shouldn't expect anything different
Quote from: novice wrestler on December 02, 2022, 09:09:02 AMQuote from: ckwrestler on December 01, 2022, 06:40:10 PMQuote from: novice wrestler on December 01, 2022, 09:03:11 AMThe real people that are hurt in this are the AWA high school wrestlers. Some (not all) of them are very likely being influenced out of the opportunity to wrestle for their home state school, be closer to home for family and friends to attend, compete in the best Conference in the country and most importantly lose out on the education of a top 10 public university (vs Missouri that isn't even in the top 50). I feel sorry for those kids
Don't understand this logic, at all. They're being hurt by turning in to elite wrestlers? By having more opportunities because of what they were taught at AWA? Are you saying that the parents and wrestlers are easily influenced? I recall others defending Ben stating he showed pride in his wrestlers no matter what college they chose.
I like seeing our state schools succeed, but Ben doesn't work for the UW.
You are missing the point, yes HS/club coaches can influence some kids and parents! They build a strong trust(which is not bad) but some kids/parents just dont have other reference points. Its called a pipeline to a certain school which is exactly what is going on at Missouri.(not a novel thing, happens in all sports) Look at Missouri's roster and the number of kids from WI compared to neighboring states and every kid from WI are AWA kids. And this has been going on for years, pre-dating the current UW staff.
Why can UW attract elite HS/club kids and even get great (AA) wrestlers to transfer in from other colleges and thrive but this isnt happening with elite AWA wrestlers??? Something smells a little bad and has been for many years.
100% agreed, Ben and Maxx owe nothing to UW and currently we shouldn't expect anything different
So by this logic, Ben and Max have ALL the power in terms of where kids go and Bono doesn't have any responsibility for that?? Poor Bono is just at the whim of Ben and Max and where those kids end of going to college to wrestle.
Seems pretty ridiculous doesn't it.
This whole thing is a two-way street...Bono and Ben own it...period. But to blame one side over the other is absolutely ridiculous. I believe Ben truly would try and repair the relationship, because despite his bravado, he has proven over and over he wants what is best for his kids. As for Bono...I have no idea...don't know the man from a hole in the wall...but if he is just throwing his hands up in the air and being like, "well Ben is just steering kids away from the UW, nothing I can do" then a lot of the blame does fall on him. Good leaders sometimes have to swallow their pride and do what is best for the program, sure hope Bono does that.
Cody Goebel
Aidan Medora
Jack Severin
Josh Otto
Dominic Dentino
Almost 18% of the roster are AWA kids. Where are the Nazar, RT, Crass Trained wrestlers?
I should say this isn't a knock on any of those clubs. Point is they are also high level and are producing top quality kids as well.
A coach can only control what he/she can control.
Stating the obvious:
The main thing a coach has to do is create a winning program--through recruitment and development.
I have been attending duels since Bono's arrival and the level of excitement and attendance is excellent. This will pay dividends with recruitment. Then his ability to coach and develop will be put to the test.
The effect that AWA has on these kid's and there choices will be mitigated strongly simply by Bono's ability to create a next level wrestling program.
It would be nice to not have the obvious strife with the two groups. But, it is my hope as a Badger fan that Bono can get where he wants to go with this program in spite of this obstacle. It is a big country with a lot of good wrestlers. Cheering for Wisconsin Kids on the Badger team is a plus (and one I would certainly prefer), but not a necessity for Bucky to become elite.
Go Badgers.
Quote from: dman on December 02, 2022, 09:32:27 AMQuote from: novice wrestler on December 02, 2022, 09:09:02 AMQuote from: ckwrestler on December 01, 2022, 06:40:10 PMQuote from: novice wrestler on December 01, 2022, 09:03:11 AMThe real people that are hurt in this are the AWA high school wrestlers. Some (not all) of them are very likely being influenced out of the opportunity to wrestle for their home state school, be closer to home for family and friends to attend, compete in the best Conference in the country and most importantly lose out on the education of a top 10 public university (vs Missouri that isn't even in the top 50). I feel sorry for those kids
Don't understand this logic, at all. They're being hurt by turning in to elite wrestlers? By having more opportunities because of what they were taught at AWA? Are you saying that the parents and wrestlers are easily influenced? I recall others defending Ben stating he showed pride in his wrestlers no matter what college they chose.
I like seeing our state schools succeed, but Ben doesn't work for the UW.
You are missing the point, yes HS/club coaches can influence some kids and parents! They build a strong trust(which is not bad) but some kids/parents just dont have other reference points. Its called a pipeline to a certain school which is exactly what is going on at Missouri.(not a novel thing, happens in all sports) Look at Missouri's roster and the number of kids from WI compared to neighboring states and every kid from WI are AWA kids. And this has been going on for years, pre-dating the current UW staff.
Why can UW attract elite HS/club kids and even get great (AA) wrestlers to transfer in from other colleges and thrive but this isnt happening with elite AWA wrestlers??? Something smells a little bad and has been for many years.
100% agreed, Ben and Maxx owe nothing to UW and currently we shouldn't expect anything different
So by this logic, Ben and Max have ALL the power in terms of where kids go and Bono doesn't have any responsibility for that?? Poor Bono is just at the whim of Ben and Max and where those kids end of going to college to wrestle.
Seems pretty ridiculous doesn't it.
This whole thing is a two-way street...Bono and Ben own it...period. But to blame one side over the other is absolutely ridiculous. I believe Ben truly would try and repair the relationship, because despite his bravado, he has proven over and over he wants what is best for his kids. As for Bono...I have no idea...don't know the man from a hole in the wall...but if he is just throwing his hands up in the air and being like, "well Ben is just steering kids away from the UW, nothing I can do" then a lot of the blame does fall on him. Good leaders sometimes have to swallow their pride and do what is best for the program, sure hope Bono does that.
You are 100% correct, there is no arguing that it takes two to tango. Compromise is important in any relationship. But here is what I have observed and the basis for the comments. There was friction between the Askern's and Barry Davis dating back to a decade or more ago. Like 5 years ago enter a new person, Chris Bono who appears to have a different personality and much higher energy level. Outside of a short early honeymoon period, the Askern's have issues again with UW wrestling. To me, you then have to look at the history of things and think what the common denominator here?
I actually like the Wisconsin coaching staff and the AWA staff. When you get two alpha males together, sometimes they can't find a way to get along. I have seen it my whole life. I think they both can be successful. I also think they both have very different styles. Bono seems to focus on conditioning and toughness while Askren loves technique. The addition of Seth Gross has been awesome for the Wisconsin staff because he also loves technique. Jon Reader is one of the most stand up guys you will meet in the sport. Wisconsin has a lot to offer and it will just take time to really build something special. Nothing is guaranteed in this sport, especially since you have another 77 D1 coaches trying to climb the ladder as well.
Didn't Askren apply or inquire about the UW job and didn't get it?
Did Ben get along with Barry? I can't recall if they did get along but something tells me they didn't.
I will pull for most every kid (cannot think of any exceptions right now) who is from Wisconsin no matter where they wrestle in college. Just like I root for all our USA wrestlers in the Olympics or World Championships.
That being said I want the Badger program to be excellent and am happy with Coach Bono. I also want our Fargo teams to be excellent. I just find it extremely disappointing the relationship or lack of a relationship that is present between AWA and UW-Madison. No matter what the reason or the cause, it is highly disappointing.
To me it doesn't make sense to carry grudges, especially if it limits a kids options. I wish all parties could forgive, communicate, and get past this. It is how we are supposed to handle situations as adults. Sets a better example for our kids.
I agree. Both excellent coaches. It isn't his job to help Bono. It IS Bonos job to have positive relationships w coaches in the state.
Personally, I'd rather see our WI natives be successful than the Badger wrestling team, if I had to choose. That's just me. Obviously, both would be ideal since I'm also a Badger fan.
My answer is yes.
3). I have heard many close to the situation say "Ben wants Chris fired". I don't think Ben has kept it secret that he wants Chris fired. That is definitely attempting to affect Chris's livelihood. On the flip side, I don't believe (or at least I haven't heard) of anyone with the University saying "don't attend AWA", etc in a way that would hurt AWA's livelihood. It's just been fans on this forum. Both shouldn't happen.
Did Ben get along with Barry? I can't recall if they did get along but something tells me they didn't.
He didn't get along with Barry and now he doesn't get along with Bono and apparently wants him fired. He wanted Barry replaced too. He showed the utmost disrespect to a Big Ten champion and NCAA champion and Olympic medalist because he thinks he's something special. You know what that this tells me? He won't be satisfied unless the UW coach is his puppet or toadies to him in some way. Doesn't matter who the coach is. Sorry, UW's not going that route. Askren is free to do what he wants and if that means steering his kids away from UW that's fine too. Hope the internet is high speed wherever they live if people want to follow them as they wrestle out-of-state. As for UW, as Barry Alvarez once said to a recruit "We'll win whether they come to Wisconsin or not." The butt-kissing is over!
Quote from: wrestlemania on December 04, 2022, 09:07:23 PM
3). I have heard many close to the situation say "Ben wants Chris fired". I don't think Ben has kept it secret that he wants Chris fired. That is definitely attempting to affect Chris's livelihood. On the flip side, I don't believe (or at least I haven't heard) of anyone with the University saying "don't attend AWA", etc in a way that would hurt AWA's livelihood. It's just been fans on this forum. Both shouldn't happen.
Did Ben get along with Barry? I can't recall if they did get along but something tells me they didn't.
He didn't get along with Barry and now he doesn't get along with Bono and apparently wants him fired. He wanted Barry replaced too. He showed the utmost disrespect to a Big Ten champion and NCAA champion and Olympic medalist because he thinks he's something special. You know what that this tells me? He won't be satisfied unless the UW coach is his puppet or toadies to him in some way. Doesn't matter who the coach is. Sorry, UW's not going that route. Askren is free to do what he wants and if that means steering his kids away from UW that's fine too. Hope the internet is high speed wherever they live if people want to follow them as they wrestle out-of-state. As for UW, as Barry Alvarez once said to a recruit "We'll win whether they come to Wisconsin or not." The butt-kissing is over!
This! Those of us who spent the last decade plus involved in youth wrestling know all to well the Askren ego is real, and a problem for the rest of Wisconsin wrestling. Ben cares about AWA, He has not real concern the state of wrestling as a whole. Bono also doesn't need AWA. Outside of O'tool, who was going to be a stud with or without Ben, there are not a lof of other wrestlers that crack our line up. Bono has this program moving in the rigth direction and shouldn't try to appease won guy who is never satisfied.
Did Ben get along with Barry? I can't recall if they did get along but something tells me they didn't.
In his book, Ben is pretty open about his relationship with Barry. Per his book, Ben liked Wisconsin and was a big fan of Donny Pritzlaff. But, Barry didn't like Ben and even went as far as to tell other coaches that he wasn't any good and not to recruit him.
Outside of O'tool, who was going to be a stud with or without Ben, there are not a lof of other wrestlers that crack our line up
Off the top of my head, Parker Keckeisen and Stephen Buchanan would fit in the lineup nicely.
Quote from: MRL_84 on December 05, 2022, 02:05:11 PMDid Ben get along with Barry? I can't recall if they did get along but something tells me they didn't.
In his book, Ben is pretty open about his relationship with Barry. Per his book, Ben liked Wisconsin and was a big fan of Donny Pritzlaff. But, Barry didn't like Ben and even went as far as to tell other coaches that he wasn't any good and not to recruit him.
Outside of O'tool, who was going to be a stud with or without Ben, there are not a lof of other wrestlers that crack our line up
Off the top of my head, Parker Keckeisen and Stephen Buchanan would fit in the lineup nicely.
He didn't wrestle for AWA. Parker would for sure look good in the lineup along with even Mocco.
My mistake on Buchanan... I guess its not just AWA wrestlers leaving the state. ???
Quote from: MRL_84 on December 05, 2022, 06:39:49 PMMy mistake on Buchanan... I guess its not just AWA wrestlers leaving the state. ???
To be fair, I think everyone missed on Buchanan. Props to Wyoming for seeing his potential.
Quote from: dman on December 02, 2022, 09:32:27 AMQuote from: novice wrestler on December 02, 2022, 09:09:02 AMQuote from: ckwrestler on December 01, 2022, 06:40:10 PMQuote from: novice wrestler on December 01, 2022, 09:03:11 AMThe real people that are hurt in this are the AWA high school wrestlers. Some (not all) of them are very likely being influenced out of the opportunity to wrestle for their home state school, be closer to home for family and friends to attend, compete in the best Conference in the country and most importantly lose out on the education of a top 10 public university (vs Missouri that isn't even in the top 50). I feel sorry for those kids
Don't understand this logic, at all. They're being hurt by turning in to elite wrestlers? By having more opportunities because of what they were taught at AWA? Are you saying that the parents and wrestlers are easily influenced? I recall others defending Ben stating he showed pride in his wrestlers no matter what college they chose.
I like seeing our state schools succeed, but Ben doesn't work for the UW.
You are missing the point, yes HS/club coaches can influence some kids and parents! They build a strong trust(which is not bad) but some kids/parents just dont have other reference points. Its called a pipeline to a certain school which is exactly what is going on at Missouri.(not a novel thing, happens in all sports) Look at Missouri's roster and the number of kids from WI compared to neighboring states and every kid from WI are AWA kids. And this has been going on for years, pre-dating the current UW staff.
Why can UW attract elite HS/club kids and even get great (AA) wrestlersQuote from: dman on December 02, 2022, 09:32:27 AMQuote from: novice wrestler on December 02, 2022, 09:09:02 AMQuote from: ckwrestler on December 01, 2022, 06:40:10 PMQuote from: novice wrestler on December 01, 2022, 09:03:11 AMThe real people that are hurt in this are the AWA high school wrestlers. Some (not all) of them are very likely being influenced out of the opportunity to wrestle for their home state school, be closer to home for family and friends to attend, compete in the best Conference in the country and most importantly lose out on the education of a top 10 public university (vs Missouri that isn't even in the top 50). I feel sorry for those kids
Don't understand this logic, at all. They're being hurt by turning in to elite wrestlers? By having more opportunities because of what they were taught at AWA? Are you saying that the parents and wrestlers are easily influenced? I recall others defending Ben stating he showed pride in his wrestlers no matter what college they chose.
I like seeing our state schools succeed, but Ben doesn't work for the UW.
You are missing the point, yes HS/club coaches can influence some kids and parents! They build a strong trust(which is not bad) but some kids/parents just dont have other reference points. Its called a pipeline to a certain school which is exactly what is going on at Missouri.(not a novel thing, happens in all sports) Look at Missouri's roster and the number of kids from WI compared to neighboring states and every kid from WI are AWA kids. And this has been going on for years, pre-dating the current UW staff.
Why can UW attract elite HS/club kids and even get great (AA) wrestlers to transfer in from other colleges and thrive but this isnt happening with elite AWA wrestlers??? Something smells a little bad and has been for many years.
100% agreed, Ben and Maxx owe nothing to UW and currently we shouldn't expect anything different
So by this logic, Ben and Max have ALL the power in terms of where kids go and Bono doesn't have any responsibility for that?? Poor Bono is just at the whim of Ben and Max and where those kids end of going to college to wrestle.
Seems pretty ridiculous doesn't it.
This whole thing is a two-way street...Bono and Ben own it...period. But to blame one side over the other is absolutely ridiculous. I believe Ben truly would try and repair the relationship, because despite his bravado, he has proven over and over he wants what is best for his kids. As for Bono...I have no idea...don't know the man from a hole in the wall...but if he is just throwing his hands up in the air and being like, "well Ben is just steering kids away from the UW, nothing I can do" then a lot of the blame does fall on him. Good leaders sometimes have to swallow their pride and do what is best for the program, sure hope Bono does that.
to transfer in from other colleges and thrive but this isnt happening with elite AWA wrestlers??? Something smells a little bad and has been for many years.
100% agreed, Ben and Maxx owe nothing to UW and currently we shouldn't expect anything different
So by this logic, Ben and Max have ALL the power in terms of where kids go and Bono doesn't have any responsibility for that?? Poor Bono is just at the whim of Ben and Max and where those kids end of going to college to wrestle.
Seems pretty ridiculous doesn't it.
This whole thing is a two-way street...Bono and Ben own it...period. But to blame one side over the other is absolutely ridiculous. I believe Ben truly would try and repair the relationship, because despite his bravado, he has proven over and over he wants what is best for his kids. As for Bono...I have no idea...don't know the man from a hole in the wall...but if he is just throwing his hands up in the air and being like, "well Ben is just steering kids away from the UW, nothing I can do" then a lot of the blame does fall on him. Good leaders sometimes have to swallow their pride and do what is best for the program, sure hope Bono does that.
By this logic is seems like you took what he said(can have
SOME INFLUENCE)...then you read it, it got cut with your own ideas and...lets be kind and say rationale and you used it and created an argument that fit your narrative better(something you could make a really foolish, sarcastic comment about) and argued THAT vs that point.
Please quote JUST the part of the comment that led you to believe that he was inferring Ben and Max have "ALL the power" and that Bono has "no responsibility?"
I'm trying to understand your deductive reasoning here and I'd simply like to know how that was your takeaway from what was ACTUALLY said...which was absolutely NOTHING remotely similar to how you interpreted it?
Now to answer the question, AWA is objectively good for the state.
Wisconsin just not on the level of Minnesota, Illinois, Michigan, Iowa, states that probably had a comparable level of talent because the wrestling was too spread out.
So Askren and the Crass brothers and Pinnacle, they are changing the sport of Wrestling in Wisconsin. And I think John Messinbrink is one of the best coaching working with individuals and getting the most out of them.
So yeah, he's ABSOLUTELY good for the State...in terms of creating and developing the best wrestlers.
Is his ego the best for all the kids and the States Flagship University? No, of course not. And...before someone stops me and says sommething foolish like, 'So you're saying these kids and their parents have absolutely no say in where they wrestle in College, they just go where Ben(and Maxx...who I suspect is FAR-FAR less concerned over this) order them to go?'
No...of course not. That'd be an inappropriate term01 conclusion. But if you put in the hours you put into wrestling at these camps and you develop the rapport that most coaches do with their athletes, the athletes come to have a great deal of respect for said coach and the parents see their kids earning D1 scholarships and they're proud and grateful and that will invariably lead to an outsized influence on the athletes.
So I'd say just the kids getting and opportunity to go to these clubs closer to their houses and work with other kids and learn from a HOF coach and D1 Wrestlers like Wagner's and the Askren's(or again, the Crass brothers or any clubs that have grown)...that is great and we're seeing the benefits pay off.
I think (and yes, I do understand that UW is not for everyone as I head you off at the pass for this inevitable response) it's also hurting the kids. They're not Wrestling in front of their home state, their fans, in the B1G, at one of the best schools that has D1 Wrestling in terms of academics.
Multiple things can be true.
Quote from: Vir Fortis on December 11, 2022, 05:25:29 AMNow to answer the question, AWA is objectively good for the state.
Wisconsin just not on the level of Minnesota, Illinois, Michigan, Iowa, states that probably had a comparable level of talent because the wrestling was too spread out.
So Askren and the Crass brothers and Pinnacle, they are changing the sport of Wrestling in Wisconsin. And I think John Messinbrink is one of the best coaching working with individuals and getting the most out of them.
So yeah, he's ABSOLUTELY good for the State...in terms of creating and developing the best wrestlers.
Is his ego the best for all the kids and the States Flagship University? No, of course not. And...before someone stops me and says sommething foolish like, 'So you're saying these kids and their parents have absolutely no say in where they wrestle in College, they just go where Ben(and Maxx...who I suspect is FAR-FAR less concerned over this) order them to go?'
No...of course not. That'd be an inappropriate term01 conclusion. But if you put in the hours you put into wrestling at these camps and you develop the rapport that most coaches do with their athletes, the athletes come to have a great deal of respect for said coach and the parents see their kids earning D1 scholarships and they're proud and grateful and that will invariably lead to an outsized influence on the athletes.
So I'd say just the kids getting and opportunity to go to these clubs closer to their houses and work with other kids and learn from a HOF coach and D1 Wrestlers like Wagner's and the Askren's(or again, the Crass brothers or any clubs that have grown)...that is great and we're seeing the benefits pay off.
I think (and yes, I do understand that UW is not for everyone as I head you off at the pass for this inevitable response) it's also hurting the kids. They're not Wrestling in front of their home state, their fans, in the B1G, at one of the best schools that has D1 Wrestling in terms of academics.
Multiple things can be true.
So to fit YOUR narrative you only look at it from what Ben is and isn't doing but nowhere in your ramblings do you hold Bono and staff responsible for the situation. My point since you seem to not understand is that it is a two-way street...period. So you can paint your narrative that big bad Ben holds responsibility for the lack of AWA kids going to UW, but I'll stick with both are at fault, but I think Bono owns the majority of the responsibility. Just as you say Ben's ego (which is large) is the problem, so is Bono's...maybe even more so.
Quote from: 1Iota on December 05, 2022, 01:32:22 PMQuote from: wrestlemania on December 04, 2022, 09:07:23 PM
3). I have heard many close to the situation say "Ben wants Chris fired". I don't think Ben has kept it secret that he wants Chris fired. That is definitely attempting to affect Chris's livelihood. On the flip side, I don't believe (or at least I haven't heard) of anyone with the University saying "don't attend AWA", etc in a way that would hurt AWA's livelihood. It's just been fans on this forum. Both shouldn't happen.
Did Ben get along with Barry? I can't recall if they did get along but something tells me they didn't.
He didn't get along with Barry and now he doesn't get along with Bono and apparently wants him fired. He wanted Barry replaced too. He showed the utmost disrespect to a Big Ten champion and NCAA champion and Olympic medalist because he thinks he's something special. You know what that this tells me? He won't be satisfied unless the UW coach is his puppet or toadies to him in some way. Doesn't matter who the coach is. Sorry, UW's not going that route. Askren is free to do what he wants and if that means steering his kids away from UW that's fine too. Hope the internet is high speed wherever they live if people want to follow them as they wrestle out-of-state. As for UW, as Barry Alvarez once said to a recruit "We'll win whether they come to Wisconsin or not." The butt-kissing is over!
This! Those of us who spent the last decade plus involved in youth wrestling know all to well the Askren ego is real, and a problem for the rest of Wisconsin wrestling. Ben cares about AWA, He has not real concern the state of wrestling as a whole. Bono also doesn't need AWA. Outside of O'tool, who was going to be a stud with or without Ben, there are not a lof of other wrestlers that crack our line up. Bono has this program moving in the rigth direction and shouldn't try to appease won guy who is never satisfied.
Didn't O'toole get most of his coaching from Gomez Wrestling in the first place? He was pretty elite before he got to Askren.
Didn't O'toole get most of his coaching from Gomez Wrestling in the first place? He was pretty elite before he got to Askren.
[/quote]
I am assuming this is an innocent question. But the answer is no, not even close in my opinion. Most of his training up until like 4th grade was mainly from Gomez. And yes he was elite at that time. But we are talking about a 4th grader. The majority of his coaching and true life lessons, that make him as good as he is, came after that point from his parents, AWA, and his HS coach Ferrell.
Quote from: dman on December 11, 2022, 09:49:58 AMQuote from: Vir Fortis on December 11, 2022, 05:25:29 AMNow to answer the question, AWA is objectively good for the state.
Wisconsin just not on the level of Minnesota, Illinois, Michigan, Iowa, states that probably had a comparable level of talent because the wrestling was too spread out.
So Askren and the Crass brothers and Pinnacle, they are changing the sport of Wrestling in Wisconsin. And I think John Messinbrink is one of the best coaching working with individuals and getting the most out of them.
So yeah, he's ABSOLUTELY good for the State...in terms of creating and developing the best wrestlers.
Is his ego the best for all the kids and the States Flagship University? No, of course not. And...before someone stops me and says sommething foolish like, 'So you're saying these kids and their parents have absolutely no say in where they wrestle in College, they just go where Ben(and Maxx...who I suspect is FAR-FAR less concerned over this) order them to go?'
No...of course not. That'd be an inappropriate term01 conclusion. But if you put in the hours you put into wrestling at these camps and you develop the rapport that most coaches do with their athletes, the athletes come to have a great deal of respect for said coach and the parents see their kids earning D1 scholarships and they're proud and grateful and that will invariably lead to an outsized influence on the athletes.
So I'd say just the kids getting and opportunity to go to these clubs closer to their houses and work with other kids and learn from a HOF coach and D1 Wrestlers like Wagner's and the Askren's(or again, the Crass brothers or any clubs that have grown)...that is great and we're seeing the benefits pay off.
I think (and yes, I do understand that UW is not for everyone as I head you off at the pass for this inevitable response) it's also hurting the kids. They're not Wrestling in front of their home state, their fans, in the B1G, at one of the best schools that has D1 Wrestling in terms of academics.
Multiple things can be true.
So to fit YOUR narrative you only look at it from what Ben is and isn't doing but nowhere in your ramblings do you hold Bono and staff responsible for the situation. My point since you seem to not understand is that it is a two-way street...period. So you can paint your narrative that big bad Ben holds responsibility for the lack of AWA kids going to UW, but I'll stick with both are at fault, but I think Bono owns the majority of the responsibility. Just as you say Ben's ego (which is large) is the problem, so is Bono's...maybe even more so.
Past behavior is a great predictor of future behavior. The Askern's had negative things to says about Barry Davis and promoted him getting fired. That started well over a decade ago. Enter Chris Bono and that past behavior reared its ugly head yet again. So Chris does have some responsibility but your argument lacks the teeth needed to make it that credible. Ben and Maxx's behavior/attitude is pretty predictable and it is a little silly to thing otherwise
Quote from: dman on December 11, 2022, 09:49:58 AMQuote from: Vir Fortis on December 11, 2022, 05:25:29 AMNow to answer the question, AWA is objectively good for the state.
Wisconsin just not on the level of Minnesota, Illinois, Michigan, Iowa, states that probably had a comparable level of talent because the wrestling was too spread out.
So Askren and the Crass brothers and Pinnacle, they are changing the sport of Wrestling in Wisconsin. And I think John Messinbrink is one of the best coaching working with individuals and getting the most out of them.
So yeah, he's ABSOLUTELY good for the State...in terms of creating and developing the best wrestlers.
Is his ego the best for all the kids and the States Flagship University? No, of course not. And...before someone stops me and says sommething foolish like, 'So you're saying these kids and their parents have absolutely no say in where they wrestle in College, they just go where Ben(and Maxx...who I suspect is FAR-FAR less concerned over this) order them to go?'
No...of course not. That'd be an inappropriate term01 conclusion. But if you put in the hours you put into wrestling at these camps and you develop the rapport that most coaches do with their athletes, the athletes come to have a great deal of respect for said coach and the parents see their kids earning D1 scholarships and they're proud and grateful and that will invariably lead to an outsized influence on the athletes.
So I'd say just the kids getting and opportunity to go to these clubs closer to their houses and work with other kids and learn from a HOF coach and D1 Wrestlers like Wagner's and the Askren's(or again, the Crass brothers or any clubs that have grown)...that is great and we're seeing the benefits pay off.
I think (and yes, I do understand that UW is not for everyone as I head you off at the pass for this inevitable response) it's also hurting the kids. They're not Wrestling in front of their home state, their fans, in the B1G, at one of the best schools that has D1 Wrestling in terms of academics.
Multiple things can be true.
So to fit YOUR narrative you only look at it from what Ben is and isn't doing but nowhere in your ramblings do you hold Bono and staff responsible for the situation. My point since you seem to not understand is that it is a two-way street...period. So you can paint your narrative that big bad Ben holds responsibility for the lack of AWA kids going to UW, but I'll stick with both are at fault, but I think Bono owns the majority of the responsibility. Just as you say Ben's ego (which is large) is the problem, so is Bono's...maybe even more so.
1-Yes...I DO look at the question "Is Ben Askren good for Wisconsin Wrestling," at what Ben is and isn't doing. That kinda seems like the logical way to come to a conclusion on this one, no?
How else do YOU judge if someone is good for the state?
2-Rambling? And back with the ad hominem. Not surprised. You're DMAN! Curious, which part of it was rambling? I'm working on being more concise?
3-Yeah, the problem with things NEEDING to be a two way street, when one way gets closed down and it happens over decades with various coaches, I start to believe one of those streets is closed off.
Though...I'm confused, was this or was this NOT about Ben Askren specifically and if HE is good for the State of Wisconsin's Wrestling? Mind sharing with me where I rambled? Perhaps exactly what I objected to EXACTLY beyond not making the topic about someone else? I feel like a great mind like you has a lot to offer. Maybe you could teach me. You also strike me as the type to pick up on a facetious comment very quickly.
Now, I'm curious how you'll take what I wrote here and then turn it into something entirely different so you can then argue against that point?
Quote from: novice wrestler on December 12, 2022, 01:28:21 PMQuote from: dman on December 11, 2022, 09:49:58 AMQuote from: Vir Fortis on December 11, 2022, 05:25:29 AMNow to answer the question, AWA is objectively good for the state.
Wisconsin just not on the level of Minnesota, Illinois, Michigan, Iowa, states that probably had a comparable level of talent because the wrestling was too spread out.
So Askren and the Crass brothers and Pinnacle, they are changing the sport of Wrestling in Wisconsin. And I think John Messinbrink is one of the best coaching working with individuals and getting the most out of them.
So yeah, he's ABSOLUTELY good for the State...in terms of creating and developing the best wrestlers.
Is his ego the best for all the kids and the States Flagship University? No, of course not. And...before someone stops me and says sommething foolish like, 'So you're saying these kids and their parents have absolutely no say in where they wrestle in College, they just go where Ben(and Maxx...who I suspect is FAR-FAR less concerned over this) order them to go?'
No...of course not. That'd be an inappropriate term01 conclusion. But if you put in the hours you put into wrestling at these camps and you develop the rapport that most coaches do with their athletes, the athletes come to have a great deal of respect for said coach and the parents see their kids earning D1 scholarships and they're proud and grateful and that will invariably lead to an outsized influence on the athletes.
So I'd say just the kids getting and opportunity to go to these clubs closer to their houses and work with other kids and learn from a HOF coach and D1 Wrestlers like Wagner's and the Askren's(or again, the Crass brothers or any clubs that have grown)...that is great and we're seeing the benefits pay off.
I think (and yes, I do understand that UW is not for everyone as I head you off at the pass for this inevitable response) it's also hurting the kids. They're not Wrestling in front of their home state, their fans, in the B1G, at one of the best schools that has D1 Wrestling in terms of academics.
Multiple things can be true.
So to fit YOUR narrative you only look at it from what Ben is and isn't doing but nowhere in your ramblings do you hold Bono and staff responsible for the situation. My point since you seem to not understand is that it is a two-way street...period. So you can paint your narrative that big bad Ben holds responsibility for the lack of AWA kids going to UW, but I'll stick with both are at fault, but I think Bono owns the majority of the responsibility. Just as you say Ben's ego (which is large) is the problem, so is Bono's...maybe even more so.
Past behavior is a great predictor of future behavior. The Askern's had negative things to says about Barry Davis and promoted him getting fired. That started well over a decade ago. Enter Chris Bono and that past behavior reared its ugly head yet again. So Chris does have some responsibility but your argument lacks the teeth needed to make it that credible. Ben and Maxx's behavior/attitude is pretty predictable and it is a little silly to thing otherwQuote from: novice wrestler on December 12, 2022, 01:28:21 PMQuote from: dman on December 11, 2022, 09:49:58 AMQuote from: Vir Fortis on December 11, 2022, 05:25:29 AMNow to answer the question, AWA is objectively good for the state.
Wisconsin just not on the level of Minnesota, Illinois, Michigan, Iowa, states that probably had a comparable level of talent because the wrestling was too spread out.
So Askren and the Crass brothers and Pinnacle, they are changing the sport of Wrestling in Wisconsin. And I think John Messinbrink is one of the best coaching working with individuals and getting the most out of them.
So yeah, he's ABSOLUTELY good for the State...in terms of creating and developing the best wrestlers.
Is his ego the best for all the kids and the States Flagship University? No, of course not. And...before someone stops me and says sommething foolish like, 'So you're saying these kids and their parents have absolutely no say in where they wrestle in College, they just go where Ben(and Maxx...who I suspect is FAR-FAR less concerned over this) order them to go?'
No...of course not. That'd be an inappropriate term01 conclusion. But if you put in the hours you put into wrestling at these camps and you develop the rapport that most coaches do with their athletes, the athletes come to have a great deal of respect for said coach and the parents see their kids earning D1 scholarships and they're proud and grateful and that will invariably lead to an outsized influence on the athletes.
So I'd say just the kids getting and opportunity to go to these clubs closer to their houses and work with other kids and learn from a HOF coach and D1 Wrestlers like Wagner's and the Askren's(or again, the Crass brothers or any clubs that have grown)...that is great and we're seeing the benefits pay off.
I think (and yes, I do understand that UW is not for everyone as I head you off at the pass for this inevitable response) it's also hurting the kids. They're not Wrestling in front of their home state, their fans, in the B1G, at one of the best schools that has D1 Wrestling in terms of academics.
Multiple things can be true.
So to fit YOUR narrative you only look at it from what Ben is and isn't doing but nowhere in your ramblings do you hold Bono and staff responsible for the situation. My point since you seem to not understand is that it is a two-way street...period. So you can paint your narrative that big bad Ben holds responsibility for the lack of AWA kids going to UW, but I'll stick with both are at fault, but I think Bono owns the majority of the responsibility. Just as you say Ben's ego (which is large) is the problem, so is Bono's...maybe even more so.
Past behavior is a great predictor of future behavior. The Askern's had negative things to says about Barry Davis and promoted him getting fired. That started well over a decade ago. Enter Chris Bono and that past behavior reared its ugly head yet again. So Chris does have some responsibility but your argument lacks the teeth needed to make it that credible. Ben and Maxx's behavior/attitude is pretty predictable and it is a little silly to thing otherwise
ise
Yup!
Also, I've yet to hear Bono take any public shots at the other.
I have seen it go the other way.
Very simple concepts here...first off, the entire thread started on an absolutely ridiculous premise by asking the question if Ben is good for Wisconsin wrestling...Ben has done 100X more for wrestling in the state of Wisconsin then any of the talking heads on this thread could even think about. Second part is I am just calling it how it is, some of you just hate Ben, that is fine and your propagative, but since it is a wrestling forum and people are free to express their opinions, I am going to call out the clearly slanted viewpoints people paint when it would be more palatable if people just said, "Yeah, I hate Ben Askren"...period. That's my opinion. I personally dislike it when people try and paint a certain narrative to hide their true feelings.
Once again, my feelings on the Ben and Bono thing...Ben has an ego and his faults, but so does Bono. I wish both sides would come together because them not getting along isn't what is best for wrestling in Wisconsin. But if they never do, Ben will still be a great thing for wrestling in Wisconsin, and by all signs, Bono is a good coach for the UW.
Quote from: dman on December 13, 2022, 07:55:34 AMVery simple concepts here...first off, the entire thread started on an absolutely ridiculous premise by asking the question if Ben is good for Wisconsin wrestling...Ben has done 100X more for wrestling in the state of Wisconsin then any of the talking heads on this thread could even think about. Second part is I am just calling it how it is, some of you just hate Ben, that is fine and your propagative, but since it is a wrestling forum and people are free to express their opinions, I am going to call out the clearly slanted viewpoints people paint when it would be more palatable if people just said, "Yeah, I hate Ben Askren"...period. That's my opinion. I personally dislike it when people try and paint a certain narrative to hide their true feelings.
Once again, my feelings on the Ben and Bono thing...Ben has an ego and his faults, but so does Bono. I wish both sides would come together because them not getting along isn't what is best for wrestling in Wisconsin. But if they never do, Ben will still be a great thing for wrestling in Wisconsin, and by all signs, Bono is a good coach for the UW.
First off, I took the original question to be is Ben good for the Wisconsin Badger program, not the State as a whole. It seems clear to me that was the intent of the original poster. I personally don't hate Ben and believe AWA is the top youth program in the State. Having said that, he is not good for UW. I don't know how that can be argued. Bono may have an ego, but he is driven to build the UW program. Ben's ego is working against that imo.
Yes, my original post was focused on Wisconsin Wrestling at the collegiate level.
There is no doubt, AWA and all wrestling clubs have greatly improved the level of wrestling in Wisconsin.
The end result of any blue chip athlete having success at the high school national level and then success at the college level has many factors. Youth club coaches, High School coaches, Club coaches, Volunteer coaches, camps, clinics, training partners, etc.
It is a two way street. Bono must share in the current situation...but it is very difficult to change minds when the Pied Piper of AWA is actively working against you.
UW-Madison, under Bono is proving to be a top notch program without the support of Ben. Imagine how it could be if it was supported and promoted.
Quote from: wrestler_73 on December 13, 2022, 12:29:11 PMUW-Madison, under Bono is proving to be a top notch program without the support of Ben. Imagine how it could be if it was supported and promoted.
This 👆
Quote from: wrestler_73 on December 13, 2022, 12:29:11 PMYes, my original post was focused on Wisconsin Wrestling at the collegiate level.
There is no doubt, AWA and all wrestling clubs have greatly improved the level of wrestling in Wisconsin.
The end result of any blue chip athlete having success at the high school national level and then success at the college level has many factors. Youth club coaches, High School coaches, Club coaches, Volunteer coaches, camps, clinics, training partners, etc.
It is a two way street. Bono must share in the current situation...but it is very difficult to change minds when the Pied Piper of AWA is actively working against you.
UW-Madison, under Bono is proving to be a top notch program without the support of Ben. Imagine how it could be if it was supported and promoted.
I essentially agree with everything you wrote.
Anybody willing to share the reason for Askren's departure from the Wisconsin Wrestling Club role? That all occurred fairly quietly without much comment from anyone. That might go a long way toward explaining why bad-blood exists between the two central characters here.