Wisconsin Wrestling Online

I see on the WWCA meeting notes on the WWCA website many great things were discussed.

Getting individual state to use 8 mats... would be a great thing. Maybe that could happen next season.

Getting girls state at the Kohl center... would be nice. We would need a couple girls regionals like 3 or 4 weeks earlier to get a max of 12 (or so) to state at each weight. Also, girls wrestling is growing so the rising numbers may change how this is executed, So maybe having girls at the same time of boys won't be possible. Maybe they'd split into 2 divisions, etc, if the number of girls keeps rising.  Something to think about for the girl's sake. T

Reducing weight classes... not a great idea. 165 teams had 10 or less wrestlers at regionals, filling various weight classes. The top 100 teams filled all the classes or they were missing wrestlers at a random weight class, depending on whatever their roster looked like this year. Taking out a weight class or 2 only puts a 100 or so varsity level kids on the bench and doesn't grow the sport. It doesn't really help the bottom 50% of the teams in dual situations. I enjoyed the level of competition at each weight at state. Some teams are filled with lightweights, some teams filled with upper weights, just depends on the year.

Equal divisions- not a bad idea, then get 16 to state per weight each division and the 8 mats will help things run smoothly time-wise. Also, look at reforming how regionals and sectionals are created to get that more modernized and top teams separated.

Is there room for eight mats at the Kohls center?

Quote from: thequad on March 31, 2022, 06:25:59 PM
Is there room for eight mats at the Kohls center?

Mel Dow says yes.

Quote from: thequad on March 31, 2022, 06:25:59 PM
Is there room for eight mats at the Kohls center?

woody53 has also stated before that there is room for 8 mats.

Quote from: Redeemer on March 31, 2022, 09:19:07 AM
I see on the WWCA meeting notes on the WWCA website many great things were discussed.

Getting individual state to use 8 mats... would be a great thing. Maybe that could happen next season.

Getting girls state at the Kohl center... would be nice. We would need a couple girls regionals like 3 or 4 weeks earlier to get a max of 12 (or so) to state at each weight. Also, girls wrestling is growing so the rising numbers may change how this is executed, So maybe having girls at the same time of boys won't be possible. Maybe they'd split into 2 divisions, etc, if the number of girls keeps rising.  Something to think about for the girl's sake. T

Reducing weight classes... not a great idea. 165 teams had 10 or less wrestlers at regionals, filling various weight classes. The top 100 teams filled all the classes or they were missing wrestlers at a random weight class, depending on whatever their roster looked like this year. Taking out a weight class or 2 only puts a 100 or so varsity level kids on the bench and doesn't grow the sport. It doesn't really help the bottom 50% of the teams in dual situations. I enjoyed the level of competition at each weight at state. Some teams are filled with lightweights, some teams filled with upper weights, just depends on the year.

Equal divisions- not a bad idea, then get 16 to state per weight each division and the 8 mats will help things run smoothly time-wise. Also, look at reforming how regionals and sectionals are created to get that more modernized and top teams separated.

Eliminating weight classes does not grow the sport. If you don't have a full team, then wrestle in tournaments.

We were told that adding weight classes would grow the sport. The opposite occurred. 

Kids not ready for varsity were filling varsity spots. Retention of athletes was reduced vs when athletes went through the JV experience, creating more holes in the line ups.

Statewide we have an average of 10 wrestlers per varsity team. This has been the documented trend for the past 6 years. Fewer than 20% of teams in the state fill all 14 weight classes regularly.

The NWCA and NFHS wrestling representatives have been pushing for and the NFHS has granted the option of reducing weight classes in the future in every state. Avoiding co-ops and cutting of programs are key reasons. Both of these actually reduce opportunities for to be a participant on a wrestling team. Wrestling on JV rather than on Varsity does NOT reduce opportunities to be on a team.

Quote from: Handles II on April 01, 2022, 10:01:09 AM
We were told that adding weight classes would grow the sport. The opposite occurred. 

Kids not ready for varsity were filling varsity spots. Retention of athletes was reduced vs when athletes went through the JV experience, creating more holes in the line ups.

Statewide we have an average of 10 wrestlers per varsity team. This has been the documented trend for the past 6 years. Fewer than 20% of teams in the state fill all 14 weight classes regularly.

The NWCA and NFHS wrestling representatives have been pushing for and the NFHS has granted the option of reducing weight classes in the future in every state. Avoiding co-ops and cutting of programs are key reasons. Both of these actually reduce opportunities for to be a participant on a wrestling team. Wrestling on JV rather than on Varsity does NOT reduce opportunities to be on a team.

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

If we do the opposite it doesn't 100% mean we will grow the sport like you propose. Also wrestling on JV does reduce your opportunity. Most JV kids get significantly less matches, tournaments, etc than Varisty level kids. Reducing the number of weight classes does 100% reduce opportunities at the conference, regional, sectional, and state tournaments. Reducing weight classes for duals is probably a good idea go down to 12 or 13 as it would make for a better product, but hurts  in tournaments and the state series. Cut 106 and either 195 or 220(I believe those were lower according to your data) for ONLY duals and keep it the same.

Why would we be for 8 mats at state? Are we in a rush to get it over with? I often wish semi's were only on 3 mats, so I could watch more of the great matches. 

Quote from: wrastle63 on April 01, 2022, 10:34:43 AM

Quote from: Handles II on April 01, 2022, 10:01:09 AM
We were told that adding weight classes would grow the sport. The opposite occurred. 

Kids not ready for varsity were filling varsity spots. Retention of athletes was reduced vs when athletes went through the JV experience, creating more holes in the line ups.

Statewide we have an average of 10 wrestlers per varsity team. This has been the documented trend for the past 6 years. Fewer than 20% of teams in the state fill all 14 weight classes regularly.

The NWCA and NFHS wrestling representatives have been pushing for and the NFHS has granted the option of reducing weight classes in the future in every state. Avoiding co-ops and cutting of programs are key reasons. Both of these actually reduce opportunities for to be a participant on a wrestling team. Wrestling on JV rather than on Varsity does NOT reduce opportunities to be on a team.

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

If we do the opposite it doesn't 100% mean we will grow the sport like you propose. Also wrestling on JV does reduce your opportunity. Most JV kids get significantly less matches, tournaments, etc than Varisty level kids. Reducing the number of weight classes does 100% reduce opportunities at the conference, regional, sectional, and state tournaments. Reducing weight classes for duals is probably a good idea go down to 12 or 13 as it would make for a better product, but hurts  in tournaments and the state series. Cut 106 and either 195 or 220(I believe those were lower according to your data) for ONLY duals and keep it the same.

Right on. Correlation does not mean causation.

All those nearly 200 team with only 11, 10, or fewer wrestlers, will still have those kids wrestling varsity spots. it's not an issue being thrown into varsity. If they are only JV level, send them to JV tournies and then forfeit the varsity spot.

For the majority of WI teams, it's more of an individual sport than a team sport. For the top 60 or so teams, they do get excited about the team aspect.

Quote from: Scramble_king on April 01, 2022, 11:23:44 AM
Why would we be for 8 mats at state? Are we in a rush to get it over with? I often wish semi's were only on 3 mats, so I could watch more of the great matches.

Girls State Tournament runs at the same time as the Boys on the extra 2 mats.

Quote from: tigerking on April 01, 2022, 01:39:31 PM

Quote from: Scramble_king on April 01, 2022, 11:23:44 AM
Why would we be for 8 mats at state? Are we in a rush to get it over with? I often wish semi's were only on 3 mats, so I could watch more of the great matches.

Girls State Tournament runs at the same time as the Boys on the extra 2 mats.

I'd be pretty upset if our school seats were by the girls mats instead of the D1 mats. Don't think girls the same weekend as boys works very well.

Quote from: Scramble_king on April 01, 2022, 03:00:06 PM

Quote from: tigerking on April 01, 2022, 01:39:31 PM

Quote from: Scramble_king on April 01, 2022, 11:23:44 AM
Why would we be for 8 mats at state? Are we in a rush to get it over with? I often wish semi's were only on 3 mats, so I could watch more of the great matches.

Girls State Tournament runs at the same time as the Boys on the extra 2 mats.

I'd be pretty upset if our school seats were by the girls mats instead of the D1 mats. Don't think girls the same weekend as boys works very well.

I would guess that A) this would allow for a two match minimum plus B) Girls would likely be a separate round.

Quote from: Scramble_king on April 01, 2022, 11:23:44 AM
Why would we be for 8 mats at state? Are we in a rush to get it over with? I often wish semi's were only on 3 mats, so I could watch more of the great matches.

I agree completely. Then people go out and drink too much and cause trouble!

Does anyone know if they had discussion about the seeding in the state tournament.  I hope they do not drop the ball on this and forget about the uproar that it caused this last season.  Our athletes deserve better than what they got this last February.  This board was lit up just over a month ago.

My understanding is that having 8 mats would allow for having 16 man brackets in d2 and d3 with having girls also. I think that is the big discussion getting both in Madison. Please see below in this post for what probably will happen.

I thought girls went very well in lacrosse at the end of January. I only was told it went well so...

From my understanding if we go to girls state at the same time as boys, d2 and d3 more than likely will not be able to expand to 16 men bracket. There is so give and take to this.

If we can get double elimination, equal representation for all divisions, and girls wrestling, I'm all for having 8 mats. As long as the tournament still lasts 3 days. I don't think anyone wants anything to do with shortening the tournament. In fact, I say lengthen it out to 4 days ;D

Quote from: wrastle63 on April 01, 2022, 10:34:43 AM

Quote from: Handles II on April 01, 2022, 10:01:09 AM
We were told that adding weight classes would grow the sport. The opposite occurred. 

Kids not ready for varsity were filling varsity spots. Retention of athletes was reduced vs when athletes went through the JV experience, creating more holes in the line ups.

Statewide we have an average of 10 wrestlers per varsity team. This has been the documented trend for the past 6 years. Fewer than 20% of teams in the state fill all 14 weight classes regularly.

The NWCA and NFHS wrestling representatives have been pushing for and the NFHS has granted the option of reducing weight classes in the future in every state. Avoiding co-ops and cutting of programs are key reasons. Both of these actually reduce opportunities for to be a participant on a wrestling team. Wrestling on JV rather than on Varsity does NOT reduce opportunities to be on a team.

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

If we do the opposite it doesn't 100% mean we will grow the sport like you propose. Also wrestling on JV does reduce your opportunity. Most JV kids get significantly less matches, tournaments, etc than Varisty level kids. Reducing the number of weight classes does 100% reduce opportunities at the conference, regional, sectional, and state tournaments. Reducing weight classes for duals is probably a good idea go down to 12 or 13 as it would make for a better product, but hurts  in tournaments and the state series. Cut 106 and either 195 or 220(I believe those were lower according to your data) for ONLY duals and keep it the same.

I guess if you can show that it's only correlation, that's fine. Nationwide, youth and middle school numbers are up. High School numbers began their quickest drop after going to 14 weights, as did a drop in numbers of individual schools having wrestling. More co-ops occurred shortly after going to 14 weights. There's at least some causation there.  Co-ops and dropped programs are lost opportunities to participate both at the JV and Varsity levels.  That's undeniable.  Two teams = 28 varsity spots and 28 JV spots. Two teams co-oped = 14 varsity spots and 14 JV spots.  Two teams dropped = 0.
Additionally, coaches were willing to try going to 14 weights to see if it would work. It hasn't. Why not be willing to try to see if fewer weights improves the product? I'm also not sure when people, like yourself, started to think that a spot on varsity became the best/only way to gain experience in this sport. So what if a kid doesn't get to wrestle at Regionals or Conf. If they can't beat the guys at their potential weight classes, then they simply aren't going to wrestle at those events anyway, 14 weights or not. And if they are simply "getting" a spot without being ready, it doesn't mean that it's good for them.  It's pretty rare that a head FB coach puts a freshman at varsity QB, even if they can accurately pass the ball. Why are wrestling fans all of a sudden thinking that a wrestler can't learn and grow in the sport unless they get a varsity spot?

Quote from: Handles II on April 04, 2022, 07:49:44 AM

Quote from: wrastle63 on April 01, 2022, 10:34:43 AM

Quote from: Handles II on April 01, 2022, 10:01:09 AM
We were told that adding weight classes would grow the sport. The opposite occurred. 

Kids not ready for varsity were filling varsity spots. Retention of athletes was reduced vs when athletes went through the JV experience, creating more holes in the line ups.

Statewide we have an average of 10 wrestlers per varsity team. This has been the documented trend for the past 6 years. Fewer than 20% of teams in the state fill all 14 weight classes regularly.

The NWCA and NFHS wrestling representatives have been pushing for and the NFHS has granted the option of reducing weight classes in the future in every state. Avoiding co-ops and cutting of programs are key reasons. Both of these actually reduce opportunities for to be a participant on a wrestling team. Wrestling on JV rather than on Varsity does NOT reduce opportunities to be on a team.

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

If we do the opposite it doesn't 100% mean we will grow the sport like you propose. Also wrestling on JV does reduce your opportunity. Most JV kids get significantly less matches, tournaments, etc than Varisty level kids. Reducing the number of weight classes does 100% reduce opportunities at the conference, regional, sectional, and state tournaments. Reducing weight classes for duals is probably a good idea go down to 12 or 13 as it would make for a better product, but hurts  in tournaments and the state series. Cut 106 and either 195 or 220(I believe those were lower according to your data) for ONLY duals and keep it the same.

I guess if you can show that it's only correlation, that's fine. Nationwide, youth and middle school numbers are up. High School numbers began their quickest drop after going to 14 weights, as did a drop in numbers of individual schools having wrestling. More co-ops occurred shortly after going to 14 weights. There's at least some causation there.  Co-ops and dropped programs are lost opportunities to participate both at the JV and Varsity levels.  That's undeniable.  Two teams = 28 varsity spots and 28 JV spots. Two teams co-oped = 14 varsity spots and 14 JV spots.  Two teams dropped = 0.
Additionally, coaches were willing to try going to 14 weights to see if it would work. It hasn't. Why not be willing to try to see if fewer weights improves the product? I'm also not sure when people, like yourself, started to think that a spot on varsity became the best/only way to gain experience in this sport. So what if a kid doesn't get to wrestle at Regionals or Conf. If they can't beat the guys at their potential weight classes, then they simply aren't going to wrestle at those events anyway, 14 weights or not. And if they are simply "getting" a spot without being ready, it doesn't mean that it's good for them.  It's pretty rare that a head FB coach puts a freshman at varsity QB, even if they can accurately pass the ball. Why are wrestling fans all of a sudden thinking that a wrestler can't learn and grow in the sport unless they get a varsity spot?

You can't prove that its causation, but I have to prove that it isn't LOL.  ::) There are a big number of factors that go into sport participation. Dropping the weight classes to 10, 11, 12, or 13 isn't going to jump participation numbers up magically. You still won't and haven't addressed the dual vs tournament aspect and think it is a one sized all cut weight classes and we will have a better product. Most teams view wrestling as in individual sport first. In HS, College, and World level the focus is on individuals and tournaments not duals.

The football coach puts the best quarterback out there whether a freshman or any other grade.

Quote from: Handles II on April 04, 2022, 07:49:44 AM

Quote from: wrastle63 on April 01, 2022, 10:34:43 AM

Quote from: Handles II on April 01, 2022, 10:01:09 AM
We were told that adding weight classes would grow the sport. The opposite occurred. 

Kids not ready for varsity were filling varsity spots. Retention of athletes was reduced vs when athletes went through the JV experience, creating more holes in the line ups.

Statewide we have an average of 10 wrestlers per varsity team. This has been the documented trend for the past 6 years. Fewer than 20% of teams in the state fill all 14 weight classes regularly.

The NWCA and NFHS wrestling representatives have been pushing for and the NFHS has granted the option of reducing weight classes in the future in every state. Avoiding co-ops and cutting of programs are key reasons. Both of these actually reduce opportunities for to be a participant on a wrestling team. Wrestling on JV rather than on Varsity does NOT reduce opportunities to be on a team.

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

If we do the opposite it doesn't 100% mean we will grow the sport like you propose. Also wrestling on JV does reduce your opportunity. Most JV kids get significantly less matches, tournaments, etc than Varisty level kids. Reducing the number of weight classes does 100% reduce opportunities at the conference, regional, sectional, and state tournaments. Reducing weight classes for duals is probably a good idea go down to 12 or 13 as it would make for a better product, but hurts  in tournaments and the state series. Cut 106 and either 195 or 220(I believe those were lower according to your data) for ONLY duals and keep it the same.

I guess if you can show that it's only correlation, that's fine. Nationwide, youth and middle school numbers are up. High School numbers began their quickest drop after going to 14 weights, as did a drop in numbers of individual schools having wrestling. More co-ops occurred shortly after going to 14 weights. There's at least some causation there.  Co-ops and dropped programs are lost opportunities to participate both at the JV and Varsity levels.  That's undeniable.  Two teams = 28 varsity spots and 28 JV spots. Two teams co-oped = 14 varsity spots and 14 JV spots.  Two teams dropped = 0.
Additionally, coaches were willing to try going to 14 weights to see if it would work. It hasn't. Why not be willing to try to see if fewer weights improves the product? I'm also not sure when people, like yourself, started to think that a spot on varsity became the best/only way to gain experience in this sport. So what if a kid doesn't get to wrestle at Regionals or Conf. If they can't beat the guys at their potential weight classes, then they simply aren't going to wrestle at those events anyway, 14 weights or not. And if they are simply "getting" a spot without being ready, it doesn't mean that it's good for them.  It's pretty rare that a head FB coach puts a freshman at varsity QB, even if they can accurately pass the ball. Why are wrestling fans all of a sudden thinking that a wrestler can't learn and grow in the sport unless they get a varsity spot?

Quote from: wrastle63 on April 04, 2022, 08:14:38 AM

Quote from: Handles II on April 04, 2022, 07:49:44 AM

Quote from: wrastle63 on April 01, 2022, 10:34:43 AM

Quote from: Handles II on April 01, 2022, 10:01:09 AM
We were told that adding weight classes would grow the sport. The opposite occurred. 

Kids not ready for varsity were filling varsity spots. Retention of athletes was reduced vs when athletes went through the JV experience, creating more holes in the line ups.

Statewide we have an average of 10 wrestlers per varsity team. This has been the documented trend for the past 6 years. Fewer than 20% of teams in the state fill all 14 weight classes regularly.

The NWCA and NFHS wrestling representatives have been pushing for and the NFHS has granted the option of reducing weight classes in the future in every state. Avoiding co-ops and cutting of programs are key reasons. Both of these actually reduce opportunities for to be a participant on a wrestling team. Wrestling on JV rather than on Varsity does NOT reduce opportunities to be on a team.

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

If we do the opposite it doesn't 100% mean we will grow the sport like you propose. Also wrestling on JV does reduce your opportunity. Most JV kids get significantly less matches, tournaments, etc than Varisty level kids. Reducing the number of weight classes does 100% reduce opportunities at the conference, regional, sectional, and state tournaments. Reducing weight classes for duals is probably a good idea go down to 12 or 13 as it would make for a better product, but hurts  in tournaments and the state series. Cut 106 and either 195 or 220(I believe those were lower according to your data) for ONLY duals and keep it the same.

I guess if you can show that it's only correlation, that's fine. Nationwide, youth and middle school numbers are up. High School numbers began their quickest drop after going to 14 weights, as did a drop in numbers of individual schools having wrestling. More co-ops occurred shortly after going to 14 weights. There's at least some causation there.  Co-ops and dropped programs are lost opportunities to participate both at the JV and Varsity levels.  That's undeniable.  Two teams = 28 varsity spots and 28 JV spots. Two teams co-oped = 14 varsity spots and 14 JV spots.  Two teams dropped = 0.
Additionally, coaches were willing to try going to 14 weights to see if it would work. It hasn't. Why not be willing to try to see if fewer weights improves the product? I'm also not sure when people, like yourself, started to think that a spot on varsity became the best/only way to gain experience in this sport. So what if a kid doesn't get to wrestle at Regionals or Conf. If they can't beat the guys at their potential weight classes, then they simply aren't going to wrestle at those events anyway, 14 weights or not. And if they are simply "getting" a spot without being ready, it doesn't mean that it's good for them.  It's pretty rare that a head FB coach puts a freshman at varsity QB, even if they can accurately pass the ball. Why are wrestling fans all of a sudden thinking that a wrestler can't learn and grow in the sport unless they get a varsity spot?

You can't prove that its causation, but I have to prove that it isn't LOL.  ::) There are a big number of factors that go into sport participation. Dropping the weight classes to 10, 11, 12, or 13 isn't going to jump participation numbers up magically. You still won't and haven't addressed the dual vs tournament aspect and think it is a one sized all cut weight classes and we will have a better product. Most teams view wrestling as in individual sport first. In HS, College, and World level the focus is on individuals and tournaments not duals.

It's interesting how you said most "teams" view it as an individual sport first. By definition, that's not a "team". I would say that the majority of coaches want a strong team, that's at both the Varsity and JV levels whenever possible. Those coaches that focus on a few individuals usually do not stay around very long.   

Quote from: Handles II on April 04, 2022, 09:43:05 AM

Quote from: wrastle63 on April 04, 2022, 08:14:38 AM

Quote from: Handles II on April 04, 2022, 07:49:44 AM

Quote from: wrastle63 on April 01, 2022, 10:34:43 AM

Quote from: Handles II on April 01, 2022, 10:01:09 AM
We were told that adding weight classes would grow the sport. The opposite occurred. 

Kids not ready for varsity were filling varsity spots. Retention of athletes was reduced vs when athletes went through the JV experience, creating more holes in the line ups.

Statewide we have an average of 10 wrestlers per varsity team. This has been the documented trend for the past 6 years. Fewer than 20% of teams in the state fill all 14 weight classes regularly.

The NWCA and NFHS wrestling representatives have been pushing for and the NFHS has granted the option of reducing weight classes in the future in every state. Avoiding co-ops and cutting of programs are key reasons. Both of these actually reduce opportunities for to be a participant on a wrestling team. Wrestling on JV rather than on Varsity does NOT reduce opportunities to be on a team.

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

If we do the opposite it doesn't 100% mean we will grow the sport like you propose. Also wrestling on JV does reduce your opportunity. Most JV kids get significantly less matches, tournaments, etc than Varisty level kids. Reducing the number of weight classes does 100% reduce opportunities at the conference, regional, sectional, and state tournaments. Reducing weight classes for duals is probably a good idea go down to 12 or 13 as it would make for a better product, but hurts  in tournaments and the state series. Cut 106 and either 195 or 220(I believe those were lower according to your data) for ONLY duals and keep it the same.

I guess if you can show that it's only correlation, that's fine. Nationwide, youth and middle school numbers are up. High School numbers began their quickest drop after going to 14 weights, as did a drop in numbers of individual schools having wrestling. More co-ops occurred shortly after going to 14 weights. There's at least some causation there.  Co-ops and dropped programs are lost opportunities to participate both at the JV and Varsity levels.  That's undeniable.  Two teams = 28 varsity spots and 28 JV spots. Two teams co-oped = 14 varsity spots and 14 JV spots.  Two teams dropped = 0.
Additionally, coaches were willing to try going to 14 weights to see if it would work. It hasn't. Why not be willing to try to see if fewer weights improves the product? I'm also not sure when people, like yourself, started to think that a spot on varsity became the best/only way to gain experience in this sport. So what if a kid doesn't get to wrestle at Regionals or Conf. If they can't beat the guys at their potential weight classes, then they simply aren't going to wrestle at those events anyway, 14 weights or not. And if they are simply "getting" a spot without being ready, it doesn't mean that it's good for them.  It's pretty rare that a head FB coach puts a freshman at varsity QB, even if they can accurately pass the ball. Why are wrestling fans all of a sudden thinking that a wrestler can't learn and grow in the sport unless they get a varsity spot?

You can't prove that its causation, but I have to prove that it isn't LOL.  ::) There are a big number of factors that go into sport participation. Dropping the weight classes to 10, 11, 12, or 13 isn't going to jump participation numbers up magically. You still won't and haven't addressed the dual vs tournament aspect and think it is a one sized all cut weight classes and we will have a better product. Most teams view wrestling as in individual sport first. In HS, College, and World level the focus is on individuals and tournaments not duals.

It's interesting how you said most "teams" view it as an individual sport first. By definition, that's not a "team". I would say that the majority of coaches want a strong team, that's at both the Varsity and JV levels whenever possible. Those coaches that focus on a few individuals usually do not stay around very long.

LOL.... You just keep digging a deeper and deeper hole. Also still didn't address the dual vs individual aspect of the sport.

Not if you are a division 1 or 2 HS football team and any good.  As a Frosh more than likely does not even suit for varsity.

Quote from: MNbadger on April 04, 2022, 09:05:50 AM
The football coach puts the best quarterback out there whether a freshman or any other grade.

Quote from: Handles II on April 04, 2022, 07:49:44 AM

Quote from: wrastle63 on April 01, 2022, 10:34:43 AM

Quote from: Handles II on April 01, 2022, 10:01:09 AM
We were told that adding weight classes would grow the sport. The opposite occurred. 

Kids not ready for varsity were filling varsity spots. Retention of athletes was reduced vs when athletes went through the JV experience, creating more holes in the line ups.

Statewide we have an average of 10 wrestlers per varsity team. This has been the documented trend for the past 6 years. Fewer than 20% of teams in the state fill all 14 weight classes regularly.

The NWCA and NFHS wrestling representatives have been pushing for and the NFHS has granted the option of reducing weight classes in the future in every state. Avoiding co-ops and cutting of programs are key reasons. Both of these actually reduce opportunities for to be a participant on a wrestling team. Wrestling on JV rather than on Varsity does NOT reduce opportunities to be on a team.

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

If we do the opposite it doesn't 100% mean we will grow the sport like you propose. Also wrestling on JV does reduce your opportunity. Most JV kids get significantly less matches, tournaments, etc than Varisty level kids. Reducing the number of weight classes does 100% reduce opportunities at the conference, regional, sectional, and state tournaments. Reducing weight classes for duals is probably a good idea go down to 12 or 13 as it would make for a better product, but hurts  in tournaments and the state series. Cut 106 and either 195 or 220(I believe those were lower according to your data) for ONLY duals and keep it the same.

I guess if you can show that it's only correlation, that's fine. Nationwide, youth and middle school numbers are up. High School numbers began their quickest drop after going to 14 weights, as did a drop in numbers of individual schools having wrestling. More co-ops occurred shortly after going to 14 weights. There's at least some causation there.  Co-ops and dropped programs are lost opportunities to participate both at the JV and Varsity levels.  That's undeniable.  Two teams = 28 varsity spots and 28 JV spots. Two teams co-oped = 14 varsity spots and 14 JV spots.  Two teams dropped = 0.
Additionally, coaches were willing to try going to 14 weights to see if it would work. It hasn't. Why not be willing to try to see if fewer weights improves the product? I'm also not sure when people, like yourself, started to think that a spot on varsity became the best/only way to gain experience in this sport. So what if a kid doesn't get to wrestle at Regionals or Conf. If they can't beat the guys at their potential weight classes, then they simply aren't going to wrestle at those events anyway, 14 weights or not. And if they are simply "getting" a spot without being ready, it doesn't mean that it's good for them.  It's pretty rare that a head FB coach puts a freshman at varsity QB, even if they can accurately pass the ball. Why are wrestling fans all of a sudden thinking that a wrestler can't learn and grow in the sport unless they get a varsity spot?

The majority of teams have team atmosphere but they don't set lofty goals as they have only 10 or less wrestlers, with the majority of them not blessed with talent. That simple.

I'm glad to see them compete at individual state at whichever weight they choose when they have the talent.

Sorry. I can't stop myself.

We don't know what will happen when we drop a weight class. What we do know is that with 14 weight classes, over 70% of the teams don't fill a lineup. This is consistent over the past 15 years and the numbers are very slowly trending towards more teams not filling the lineup, not less.

Why wouldn't we try something different? Is going to 13 weights going to make the sport worse? Again, we don't know. Maybe that one kid stays at his home program, or that kid who was forced into the lineup gets to wrestle JV and doesn't quit, or a myriad of things. It's time to try something different rather than doing the same thing and expecting different results.

Quote from: Ghetto on April 04, 2022, 03:11:08 PM
Sorry. I can't stop myself.

We don't know what will happen when we drop a weight class. What we do know is that with 14 weight classes, over 70% of the teams don't fill a lineup. This is consistent over the past 15 years and the numbers are very slowly trending towards more teams not filling the lineup, not less.

Why wouldn't we try something different? Is going to 13 weights going to make the sport worse? Again, we don't know. Maybe that one kid stays at his home program, or that kid who was forced into the lineup gets to wrestle JV and doesn't quit, or a myriad of things. It's time to try something different rather than doing the same thing and expecting different results.

My honest opinion is the less starting spots available, the less kids that will go out for that sport.

Is this the same organization that they had a petition to not pay dues until their voices were heard? I guess all problems have blown over.

Quote from: Ghetto on April 04, 2022, 03:11:08 PM
Sorry. I can't stop myself.

We don't know what will happen when we drop a weight class. What we do know is that with 14 weight classes, over 70% of the teams don't fill a lineup. This is consistent over the past 15 years and the numbers are very slowly trending towards more teams not filling the lineup, not less.

Why wouldn't we try something different? Is going to 13 weights going to make the sport worse? Again, we don't know. Maybe that one kid stays at his home program, or that kid who was forced into the lineup gets to wrestle JV and doesn't quit, or a myriad of things. It's time to try something different rather than doing the same thing and expecting different results.

Ok, is Wisconsin forfeiting weights at sections and at state? I looked and saw 42 individual champs at state and it seem to me that all the brackets were full. So why do you want to cut weight class? Looks like cutting just one weight class you eliminated 40 kids from having a chance to win a state title or even place. Cut 2 weights that would be 80 and 3 weights 120 kids. Where do you want to stop. I believe in Wisconsin you have a JV state also I was told those were 24 person brackets. Sounds like alot of chances maybe eliminated. I dont have the answers but to me taking away chance of kids to get to state doesnt sound like a good idea overall. Wrestling is a sport you may get to wrestle back to a place after a loss. Alot of sports dont get that chance. I understand the not filling line ups but overall taking away chances isnt a sure fire answer either.

I love how this thread talks about doing what ever it takes to grow women's wrestling and how to cut mens wrestling in the same thread!!!
Wrestling is an Individual Sport, duals are fun but know one cares what a teams dual record is!!!
It's all about individual state, NCAA AA, World Medals and Olympic medals.
The best way to support your team in wrestling is to focus on yourself and score points all by yourself. Partners are great but there are a lot of Elite level guys on HS team without quality partners or coaches thanks to private clubs.
Keep 14 weight classes!!

Schools do not support "individual" sports very well.  There is a reason why there are a lot fewer gymnastics teams, tennis teams, swim teams, track teams, golf teams, etc.  Schools are not going to pay for coaches for an "individual" sport or might possibly pay for one coach.

For school budgets it will continue to be a numbers game and financial one. Wrestling continues to move from a team bus to a van of a few athletes going to a tournament.

It is only an individual sport for the very best wrestlers.  The other 80% wrestlers are there to be a part of the team.  A team sport to spend some time with friends and try and contribute in some way to the team.  These 80% are the ones that spend there entire Saturdays at tournaments and never place.

Quote from: DocWrestling on April 05, 2022, 08:34:18 AM
Schools do not support "individual" sports very well.  There is a reason why there are a lot fewer gymnastics teams, tennis teams, swim teams, track teams, golf teams, etc.  Schools are not going to pay for coaches for an "individual" sport or might possibly pay for one coach.

For school budgets it will continue to be a numbers game and financial one. Wrestling continues to move from a team bus to a van of a few athletes going to a tournament.

It is only an individual sport for the very best wrestlers.  The other 80% wrestlers are there to be a part of the team.  A team sport to spend some time with friends and try and contribute in some way to the team.  These 80% are the ones that spend there entire Saturdays at tournaments and never place.

Yes, we have seen examples of this even within the same school districts, where school A has a "team" focus and school B has an "individual" focus. The team B type schools have lost their programs or needed to be co-oped with team A or team C from the same district.  Unfortunately once a team is cut/co-oped, rarely does it ever return at the original school.

Quote from: DocWrestling on April 05, 2022, 08:34:18 AM
Schools do not support "individual" sports very well.  There is a reason why there are a lot fewer gymnastics teams, tennis teams, swim teams, track teams, golf teams, etc.  Schools are not going to pay for coaches for an "individual" sport or might possibly pay for one coach.

For school budgets it will continue to be a numbers game and financial one. Wrestling continues to move from a team bus to a van of a few athletes going to a tournament.

It is only an individual sport for the very best wrestlers.  The other 80% wrestlers are there to be a part of the team.  A team sport to spend some time with friends and try and contribute in some way to the team.  These 80% are the ones that spend there entire Saturdays at tournaments and never place.

Track, Cross Country, and Golf all get support. They are all individual sports just like wrestling where the individual contributes to a team point or score.

Quote from: hammer on April 04, 2022, 09:10:00 PM

Quote from: Ghetto on April 04, 2022, 03:11:08 PM
Sorry. I can't stop myself.

We don't know what will happen when we drop a weight class. What we do know is that with 14 weight classes, over 70% of the teams don't fill a lineup. This is consistent over the past 15 years and the numbers are very slowly trending towards more teams not filling the lineup, not less.

Why wouldn't we try something different? Is going to 13 weights going to make the sport worse? Again, we don't know. Maybe that one kid stays at his home program, or that kid who was forced into the lineup gets to wrestle JV and doesn't quit, or a myriad of things. It's time to try something different rather than doing the same thing and expecting different results.

Ok, is Wisconsin forfeiting weights at sections and at state? I looked and saw 42 individual champs at state and it seem to me that all the brackets were full. So why do you want to cut weight class? Looks like cutting just one weight class you eliminated 40 kids from having a chance to win a state title or even place. Cut 2 weights that would be 80 and 3 weights 120 kids. Where do you want to stop. I believe in Wisconsin you have a JV state also I was told those were 24 person brackets. Sounds like alot of chances maybe eliminated. I dont have the answers but to me taking away chance of kids to get to state doesnt sound like a good idea overall. Wrestling is a sport you may get to wrestle back to a place after a loss. Alot of sports dont get that chance. I understand the not filling line ups but overall taking away chances isnt a sure fire answer either.

Toss in another 128 wrestlers from sectionals that doesnt get a chance and your up to 168 kids in sectionals and state that doesnt get a chance to compete for a title or place.

I will add that with the loss of individuals participating in sectionals and the state event, that has to be a loss of fans for that weight also.

I understand both arguements of keeping the same or reducing weight classes. What I question is which weights to eliminate.

Ghetto.....I saw that 106, 113, 195, 120 were the most forfeited weight classes this past year, is that correct. If this is true then the data shows the bottom 3 classes should be the ones that are reduced. That is going to cause an out rage for sure if those 3 classes are reduced to 1 and reduce 1 upper weight classes. It isnt going to be an easy arguement and never thought of the reduction of what one class brings in loss of kids competing. 2 weight classes are well over 300 kids not getting a chance to compete. I doubt the WIAA reduces classes because of the loss of kids that can compete.

I think we need to really think this out before any drastic changes are made.

Quote from: littleguy301 on April 05, 2022, 10:21:49 AM

Quote from: hammer on April 04, 2022, 09:10:00 PM

Quote from: Ghetto on April 04, 2022, 03:11:08 PM
Sorry. I can't stop myself.

We don't know what will happen when we drop a weight class. What we do know is that with 14 weight classes, over 70% of the teams don't fill a lineup. This is consistent over the past 15 years and the numbers are very slowly trending towards more teams not filling the lineup, not less.

Why wouldn't we try something different? Is going to 13 weights going to make the sport worse? Again, we don't know. Maybe that one kid stays at his home program, or that kid who was forced into the lineup gets to wrestle JV and doesn't quit, or a myriad of things. It's time to try something different rather than doing the same thing and expecting different results.

Ok, is Wisconsin forfeiting weights at sections and at state? I looked and saw 42 individual champs at state and it seem to me that all the brackets were full. So why do you want to cut weight class? Looks like cutting just one weight class you eliminated 40 kids from having a chance to win a state title or even place. Cut 2 weights that would be 80 and 3 weights 120 kids. Where do you want to stop. I believe in Wisconsin you have a JV state also I was told those were 24 person brackets. Sounds like alot of chances maybe eliminated. I dont have the answers but to me taking away chance of kids to get to state doesnt sound like a good idea overall. Wrestling is a sport you may get to wrestle back to a place after a loss. Alot of sports dont get that chance. I understand the not filling line ups but overall taking away chances isnt a sure fire answer either.

Toss in another 128 wrestlers from sectionals that doesnt get a chance and your up to 168 kids in sectionals and state that doesnt get a chance to compete for a title or place.

I will add that with the loss of individuals participating in sectionals and the state event, that has to be a loss of fans for that weight also.

I understand both arguements of keeping the same or reducing weight classes. What I question is which weights to eliminate.

Ghetto.....I saw that 106, 113, 195, 120 were the most forfeited weight classes this past year, is that correct. If this is true then the data shows the bottom 3 classes should be the ones that are reduced. That is going to cause an out rage for sure if those 3 classes are reduced to 1 and reduce 1 upper weight classes. It isnt going to be an easy arguement and never thought of the reduction of what one class brings in loss of kids competing. 2 weight classes are well over 300 kids not getting a chance to compete. I doubt the WIAA reduces classes because of the loss of kids that can compete.

I think we need to really think this out before any drastic changes are made.

NAH! We have had declining numbers, so might as well just cut varsity spots. We have to try something and this is the best option. (sarcasm)

Look guys, just because there are a limited number of spots available at the state meet does NOT mean someone is denied a chance to compete for the title; EVERYONE has a chance to compete for the title. It begins by winning the varsity spot on your team. Then the next chance to compete for the title comes at regionals...and then sectionals, and then at state. You see, by design it is a narrowing process - it has to be or the tournament would be unmanageable. But just because someone is not at the state meet does NOT mean they didn't get a chance to compete for the title.

And too, just because a kid does not find a spot in the varsity lineup does NOT mean they do not get a chance to compete. Rather, they just get to compete with more similarly skilled athletes, e.g., JV. That's not a crime, that's not an indictment but rather, it is good management of our youth in getting them to be able to compete with comparably skilled kids and possibly experience some success before some zealous parents/coaches throw a young, unprepared, kid to the lions. How do I know he is unprepared for varsity competition? They call is junior varsity for a reason. Certainly there are exceptions, but they are just that - exceptions - they are not the rule.

Now, I don't know the impact increasing or decreasing the number of weights, I just know that this notion of "go varsity or go home" for a relatively younger kid is not a healthy mentality, or at least not one I would wish to cultivate if I were in a position for decision making on the matter.

The level of competition at 106, 113, and 120 at state was phenomenal. I am Not sure how cutting the weight classes would benefit the sport.

Quote from: factfinder on April 04, 2022, 10:07:55 PM
I love how this thread talks about doing what ever it takes to grow women's wrestling and how to cut mens wrestling in the same thread!!!
Wrestling is an Individual Sport, duals are fun but know one cares what a teams dual record is!!!
It's all about individual state, NCAA AA, World Medals and Olympic medals.
The best way to support your team in wrestling is to focus on yourself and score points all by yourself. Partners are great but there are a lot of Elite level guys on HS team without quality partners or coaches thanks to private clubs.
Keep 14 weight classes!!

Did Simley win the State tournament this year? last 4 years?

How many individuals are on that team? by my count there are more than 40+ wrestlers. I'm guessing those that are not the regular starters are thrilled to be part of the team and they out number the 14 varsity kids two to one.

"only" 7 wrestlers placed at state for Simley this year, the other half the team didn't place. I'd assume they feel very much part of the team.

Olympics is individual medal sport and yet people are over including those "individuals" on the team were super excited about how the Men's and Women's TEAM did overall.

Quote from: Redeemer on April 05, 2022, 02:22:31 PM
The level of competition at 106, 113, and 120 at state was phenomenal. I am Not sure how cutting the weight classes would benefit the sport.

Look at 195 and all the stud sophomores! How many of wisconsins 195 have floated in and out of the national rankings.

The data shows the 4 lowest number of kids at those weights but man I saw alot of great wrestling in those 4 weight classes as I did in the other 10!

Quote from: npope on April 05, 2022, 02:02:09 PM
Look guys, just because there are a limited number of spots available at the state meet does NOT mean someone is denied a chance to compete for the title; EVERYONE has a chance to compete for the title. It begins by winning the varsity spot on your team. Then the next chance to compete for the title comes at regionals...and then sectionals, and then at state. You see, by design it is a narrowing process - it has to be or the tournament would be unmanageable. But just because someone is not at the state meet does NOT mean they didn't get a chance to compete for the title.

And too, just because a kid does not find a spot in the varsity lineup does NOT mean they do not get a chance to compete. Rather, they just get to compete with more similarly skilled athletes, e.g., JV. That's not a crime, that's not an indictment but rather, it is good management of our youth in getting them to be able to compete with comparably skilled kids and possibly experience some success before some zealous parents/coaches throw a young, unprepared, kid to the lions. How do I know he is unprepared for varsity competition? They call is junior varsity for a reason. Certainly there are exceptions, but they are just that - exceptions - they are not the rule.

Now, I don't know the impact increasing or decreasing the number of weights, I just know that this notion of "go varsity or go home" for a relatively younger kid is not a healthy mentality, or at least not one I would wish to cultivate if I were in a position for decision making on the matter.

Well eliminating weight classes means there will be less kids competing at state/sectionals and less fans at either even. No matter how you look at it means there is less spots for athletes to compete whether varsity or JV. That in turn lead to less people showing up for meets if their wrestler isn't on varsity or JV.

Yes you have to earn a spot to compete on any level. Just trying to show the numbers the WIAA is going to look at and it is going to be a tough sell to have them or any other organization elimate weights or more than 1.

Others have said and I strongly agree reducing weight classes will not increase participation, pure and simple.

My point is that one does NOT have to BE at the state meet in order to have had his/her chance to have competed for the title. Everyone has their chance, it just may not be at the state meet. Fewer weights would mean fewer people at the state meet, true. But cutting weights isn't the point I am making, it's about a bigger principle. BTW, if more at the state meet is better than fewer participants, then why don't we just bring 60 or 80 kids to the state at each weight? There's a reason we don't, and part of it is because the state experience is a "pinnacle experience;" participation is supposed to be reserved for those uniquely skilled, qualified and tested; it stands as a unique achievement. I don't think the unique achievement reflected in a state meet appearance is enhanced by embracing a "more is better" philosophy. All that said, we could chase that tail round and round and never agree on the point.

A possibly bigger issue in my eyes is this seeming willingness of kids to quit if they don't make the varsity as an underclassman (and the seeming effort of some to accommodate kids with that attitude by trying to placate them with more spots on a varsity roster). I think accommodating that attitude does far more harm than good to our youth, much like doling out participation ribbons for anyone who shows up. There are other ways of instilling tenacity in our youth than merely capitulating and saying, "Okay, you get to put on the varsity uniform too, even thought you haven't really earned it yet." This latter strategy is weak and will ultimately do more harm than good. What about the next time the kid is expected to pay some dues before collecting a reward? We are training them to quit if it isn't handed to them.

Anyway, I am sure some will disagree (fine), but I think a lot of people can't see beyond a kid putting on a varsity uniform - its a bigger issue than just that.

Quote from: npope on April 05, 2022, 08:10:11 PM
My point is that one does NOT have to BE at the state meet in order to have had his/her chance to have competed for the title. Everyone has their chance, it just may not be at the state meet. Fewer weights would mean fewer people at the state meet, true. But cutting weights isn't the point I am making, it's about a bigger principle. BTW, if more at the state meet is better than fewer participants, then why don't we just bring 60 or 80 kids to the state at each weight? There's a reason we don't, and part of it is because the state experience is a "pinnacle experience;" participation is supposed to be reserved for those uniquely skilled, qualified and tested; it stands as a unique achievement. I don't think the unique achievement reflected in a state meet appearance is enhanced by embracing a "more is better" philosophy. All that said, we could chase that tail round and round and never agree on the point.

A possibly bigger issue in my eyes is this seeming willingness of kids to quit if they don't make the varsity as an underclassman (and the seeming effort of some to accommodate kids with that attitude by trying to placate them with more spots on a varsity roster). I think accommodating that attitude does far more harm than good to our youth, much like doling out participation ribbons for anyone who shows up. There are other ways of instilling tenacity in our youth than merely capitulating and saying, "Okay, you get to put on the varsity uniform too, even thought you haven't really earned it yet." This latter strategy is weak and will ultimately do more harm than good. What about the next time the kid is expected to pay some dues before collecting a reward? We are training them to quit if it isn't handed to them.

Anyway, I am sure some will disagree (fine), but I think a lot of people can't see beyond a kid putting on a varsity uniform - its a bigger issue than just that.

First of all I dont give a RIP what event your talking about PERIOD! I am piggie back some one elses post of least weights equal less kids in either varsity or JV!

First of all if you look at the WIAA or NFHS they are not going to eliminate weight classes because they look at numbers. Now some states have reduced weight classes and I havent heard any feed back at this point.

NFHS has let states do experiment with this but for one the WIAA isnt planning on reduction for at least next year. While I am not a fan of the WIAA I will give them this, they are pretty constitant on preaching giving kids a chance and crowning a state champ. I would get that if coaches and AD want a reduction the WIAA would probably go with what is recommended but I would also bet there would be no chance of getting the classes back.

I dont understand what your getting at about state. I am once again piggie backing the numbers if less. Looking at it as the WIAA probably would. I can say I want to cut weights in wrestling because most teams dont fill the weight classes. Mostly true statement but what about the 300 plus kids in the state series that dont get to a weight class. The kids at local tournaments that dont get to compete.. there is 2 sides to the arguement.

Also your point about kids quitting because they dont get a spot. Well I am sure that is a reason among many that kids use for quitting a sport. I dont have an answer to why kids think that and if you do have an answer please let coaches know how to solve that issue!

"Getting rid of weight X" is an emotional argument. That's the problem. Everyone knows someone great who wrestled that weight.

No kid that went to state was undeserving.

Again, we THINK that going to 13 weights will not increase participation. We THINK it's a bad idea. We KNOW that less kids are wrestling. It's been 15+ years of decline. Maybe it's time to try something?

I don't know how it is in other parts of the state, but near us there is never a limit on how many JV matches we can have at a dual or how many JV kids we bring to a tournament. Going to 13 weights isn't gonna result in kids not being able to wrestle.

The discussion should be about moving to 12 weights.

If a team has 2 varsity caliber kids at a weight (or two), the coach has the option to find tournaments that will allow multiple entries.  Tournaments will adjust.  Life will be fine and wrestling will move forward. 

The idea of having JV duals instead of just JV matches is a bonus.

Still hasn't been addressed, but why do we have to reduce weight classes for individual tournaments like the state series. Would allow for individuals to compete at their best weight class and also create better duals. I am all in favor of reducing weight classes for duals. IMO go to 12 weight classes for duals and get rid of 106 and 195 based on the data that has been presented. If there are good 106s or 195s they can wrestle up to 113 or 220(which both had lower % of wrestlers as well). Everything else is exactly the same.

Quote from: wrastle63 on April 06, 2022, 08:10:32 AM
Still hasn't been addressed, but why do we have to reduce weight classes for individual tournaments like the state series. Would allow for individuals to compete at their best weight class and also create better duals. I am all in favor of reducing weight classes for duals. IMO go to 12 weight classes for duals and get rid of 106 and 195 based on the data that has been presented. If there are good 106s or 195s they can wrestle up to 113 or 220(which both had lower % of wrestlers as well). Everything else is exactly the same.

I would be all in for 14 weights for the state tournament series. 12 for the season.

With the data in trackwrestling, it would be easy to see if a kid could make 106 or whatever weight. Keep it simple. No weight allowance. Or just call the weights 109, etc. for regionals.

Love that idea.

Quote from: Numbers on April 05, 2022, 11:07:54 PM
The discussion should be about moving to 12 weights.

If a team has 2 varsity caliber kids at a weight (or two), the coach has the option to find tournaments that will allow multiple entries.  Tournaments will adjust.  Life will be fine and wrestling will move forward. 

The idea of having JV duals instead of just JV matches is a bonus.

Almost every tournament, minus the big holiday tournaments that we go to allow for more than one kid per weight. It's not hard to find.

Quote from: Ghetto on April 06, 2022, 10:08:19 AM

Quote from: wrastle63 on April 06, 2022, 08:10:32 AM
Still hasn't been addressed, but why do we have to reduce weight classes for individual tournaments like the state series. Would allow for individuals to compete at their best weight class and also create better duals. I am all in favor of reducing weight classes for duals. IMO go to 12 weight classes for duals and get rid of 106 and 195 based on the data that has been presented. If there are good 106s or 195s they can wrestle up to 113 or 220(which both had lower % of wrestlers as well). Everything else is exactly the same.

I would be all in for 14 weights for the state tournament series. 12 for the season.

With the data in trackwrestling, it would be easy to see if a kid could make 106 or whatever weight. Keep it simple. No weight allowance. Or just call the weights 109, etc. for regionals.

Love that idea.

Would the team tournament series be 12 or 14 weights?

Quote from: tigerking on April 06, 2022, 10:30:01 AM

Quote from: Ghetto on April 06, 2022, 10:08:19 AM

Quote from: wrastle63 on April 06, 2022, 08:10:32 AM
Still hasn't been addressed, but why do we have to reduce weight classes for individual tournaments like the state series. Would allow for individuals to compete at their best weight class and also create better duals. I am all in favor of reducing weight classes for duals. IMO go to 12 weight classes for duals and get rid of 106 and 195 based on the data that has been presented. If there are good 106s or 195s they can wrestle up to 113 or 220(which both had lower % of wrestlers as well). Everything else is exactly the same.

With the data in trackwrestling, it would be easy to see if a kid could make 106 or whatever weight. Keep it simple. No weight allowance. Or just call the weights 109, etc. for regionals.

Love that idea.

Would the team tournament series be 12 or 14 weights?

I feel like it would be 12. Stay consistent with the dual season. That would probably have to be coincide with a different way of qualifying for team state though.

Best system is likely a compromise with 11 or 12 weight classes for duals and 14 for tournaments.

There is a ton of great wrestling at end of sectionals and at state.  Nobody will debate that.  If you had 18 weight classes you would still have that.

I personally 11 or 12 weight classes will help the sport by greatly improving the team concept at both varsity and JV levels.  When wrestling was huge in our community we had weight classes and duals in middle school.  It was always about the team and not the individuals

Those that don't want to cut weight classes have your reasons but based on your reasons some of you should be fighting for 18 weight classes so more kids have the opportunity to wrestle varsity and more kids can wrestle at state and sectionals.  If you think that will help numbers then fight for that change and nobody knows but maybe you are right.

But anyone that thinks the status quo is working has their head buried in the sand or is lost in the their local community and does not see the big picture for the sport and what is happening in so many other districts.

And better coaches and more involved coaches is not the solution.  Why is that?  Because while programs have not been cut, the number of paid coaches has dropped dramatically over the years with fewer wrestlers and fewer "teams" and more "individuals".  Many schools still have a program but they don't even have a paid JV coach.  Add that to fewer teachers willing to put up with the hassles of parents and coaching. Have to fix the system to make it easier on coaches and draw more of them in.   First thing I would do is start the season after Thanksgiving and create a dead period over the holidays.  Let the clubs have November and they can run open tournaments over the Holiday dead period.

Quote from: DocWrestling on April 09, 2022, 04:34:50 PM
Best system is likely a compromise with 11 or 12 weight classes for duals and 14 for tournaments.

There is a ton of great wrestling at end of sectionals and at state.  Nobody will debate that.  If you had 18 weight classes you would still have that.

I personally 11 or 12 weight classes will help the sport by greatly improving the team concept at both varsity and JV levels.  When wrestling was huge in our community we had weight classes and duals in middle school.  It was always about the team and not the individuals

Those that don't want to cut weight classes have your reasons but based on your reasons some of you should be fighting for 18 weight classes so more kids have the opportunity to wrestle varsity and more kids can wrestle at state and sectionals.  If you think that will help numbers then fight for that change and nobody knows but maybe you are right.

But anyone that thinks the status quo is working has their head buried in the sand or is lost in the their local community and does not see the big picture for the sport and what is happening in so many other districts.

And better coaches and more involved coaches is not the solution.  Why is that?  Because while programs have not been cut, the number of paid coaches has dropped dramatically over the years with fewer wrestlers and fewer "teams" and more "individuals".  Many schools still have a program but they don't even have a paid JV coach.  Add that to fewer teachers willing to put up with the hassles of parents and coaching. Have to fix the system to make it easier on coaches and draw more of them in.   First thing I would do is start the season after Thanksgiving and create a dead period over the holidays.  Let the clubs have November and they can run open tournaments over the Holiday dead period.

Ok doc, woke up tonight couldn't sleep and decide to check out the forum

First I was peeved off but after re reading you make some serious points but in a round about way.

While I have never met you I would guess we run in the same age bracket....maybe. back in the day I remember making weight in middle school but having 20 plus weight classes which were full minus maybe a big heavy and the smallest weight.

You made one of the best points to keep weight classes I have ever read on this forum bar none. If you had 18 weights classes you would still have great matches. That is the bottom line, we want great wrestling at the end of the year and we are getting it!

I am notmdighting for 18 weight classes I am fighting to keep what we have!

Cutting weights will not grow wrestling might make some better overall wrestling but will not increase numbers PERIOD! Less chances less kids is the bottom line sorry but it is.

Ok so looking state wide I totally get that something needs to change. I would like to see options for schoolsmto chose them. Many people have really good thoughts of 12 team, 14 individuals and many other choices I like that option alot and let each school figure that out not punish certain schools that for what ever reason gets all the kids out, fund raise, recruit or what ever. Let school with less numbers navigate their own path with what they have.

Pay coaches more may help alot also, with schoolmbugets that is going to be difficult but getting a year around coach is a monster deal in alot of places. I agree not having jv coaches hurt but maybe fund raise for one or at less look into trying to fund another coach on staff. Some times just asking is a great start.

I look on the forum and see coaching jobs posted all the time. Good and bad if you ask me. Great there is an opportunity to coach but why is one leaving.

I like your starting time....though letting clubs run the other time becomes a slippery slope. How much do you want the clubs to run the show, before we know it wrestling has become a club sport and.......clubs are great but lots to think of.

m

Quote from: DocWrestling on April 09, 2022, 04:34:50 PM
Best system is likely a compromise with 11 or 12 weight classes for duals and 14 for tournaments.

There is a ton of great wrestling at end of sectionals and at state.  Nobody will debate that.  If you had 18 weight classes you would still have that.

I personally 11 or 12 weight classes will help the sport by greatly improving the team concept at both varsity and JV levels.  When wrestling was huge in our community we had weight classes and duals in middle school.  It was always about the team and not the individuals

Those that don't want to cut weight classes have your reasons but based on your reasons some of you should be fighting for 18 weight classes so more kids have the opportunity to wrestle varsity and more kids can wrestle at state and sectionals.  If you think that will help numbers then fight for that change and nobody knows but maybe you are right.

But anyone that thinks the status quo is working has their head buried in the sand or is lost in the their local community and does not see the big picture for the sport and what is happening in so many other districts.

And better coaches and more involved coaches is not the solution.  Why is that?  Because while programs have not been cut, the number of paid coaches has dropped dramatically over the years with fewer wrestlers and fewer "teams" and more "individuals".  Many schools still have a program but they don't even have a paid JV coach.  Add that to fewer teachers willing to put up with the hassles of parents and coaching. Have to fix the system to make it easier on coaches and draw more of them in.   First thing I would do is start the season after Thanksgiving and create a dead period over the holidays.  Let the clubs have November and they can run open tournaments over the Holiday dead period.

I don't understand your logic on how 11 weight classes helps the team concept? It will make the the gap between the good teams and the developmental teams even bigger!! My son is on one of the best public schools teams in the Mid West and if we only had 12 weight classes we would never have a hole in the line up. We would also lose our multi sport athletes, we typically only have 4 spots open for none year round wrestlers, This will make the power teams untouchable!!
>This is an individual sport!! We keep team score at individual tournaments.
>The best wrestlers are typically practicing with partners out side of their HS room, so good partners are not even as important as they once were.
>At the highest level's in this sport there is Zero focus on team.
>The best teams in Wisconsin make team state based on how they do at an individual regional tournament.
>What does 14 weight classes hurt? There are much bigger hurdles in improving the sport before cutting should even be on the table. Statistically the first weight classes that should be cut are 106 and 113 do to the fact that they have the lowest numbers nationally. I PERSONALLY DON'T KNOW ANYONE that thinks that is a good idea?? What weight classes do you cut based on facts? 106 and 113 are the most FF weights so do we do this based on facts or emotion?
Duals are fun but not as important as individual success in the sport, but if you want duals to be more competitive change the scoring mechanism to the same way we score freestyle duals.
With the elimination of 7 and 7 there is nothing that stops a coach for lining up competition with similar teams, its not hard to line up quads with other teams that have a full roster or teams with out a full line up, its being done in other states. Coaches can agree at duals to not put out 14 right now, there is nothing that stop two coaches saying lets line up are teams other then the most over the top decent plan in the nation!!! No state enforces the decent plan the way the WIAA does! how many FF are do to the fact the decent plan prohibits coaches from putting out a full line up? I would say getting rid of the way WIAA does the decent plan Is the first step in fixing the "team concept", then if that doesn't help you can look to eliminate weight classes. We all know cutting weight classes will not help with JV depth so let's be honest, if you cut weights you will cut kids at that size.
I personally have no issue with kids being on varsity that are not hammers, we only notice this because its an individual sport. Every Football team has guys on varsity that are a liability, that's what's great about HS sports, it a developmental age.

Question? How do we know that having 14 weight classes hasn't helped with numbers over the years by making it easier to make varsity? If the NFHS would have never gone to 14 weight classes you could make an argument the numbers could even be worse??? Thoughts?

Do you think this is true: " We were told that adding weight classes would grow the sport. The opposite occurred. "
Actually wrestling has stayed steady as the fifth most popular sport for boys for at least thirty or forty years.  As I remember, the upper weights were added with the belief that it would get more football players to participate. 
The reality is participation is down in most sports.  I do not believe contraction will help our sport.  Less is less no matter how you slice it.  Wrestling overall is better, higher quality (probably true in all sports in fact).  I am firmly against retraction and I am a t a school where we do not have a full line up at this time.  Wrestling is first and foremost an individual sport.  I am of the opinion that if we retract, our numbers overall will actually decline.
Wrestling numbers have sta"

Quote from: Handles II on April 01, 2022, 10:01:09 AM
We were told that adding
Kids not ready for varsity were filling varsity spots. Retention of athletes was reduced vs when athletes went through the JV experience, creating more holes in the line ups.

Statewide we have an average of 10 wrestlers per varsity team. This has been the documented trend for the past 6 years. Fewer than 20% of teams in the state fill all 14 weight classes regularly.

The NWCA and NFHS wrestling representatives have been pushing for and the NFHS has granted the option of reducing weight classes in the future in every state. Avoiding co-ops and cutting of programs are key reasons. Both of these actually reduce opportunities for to be a participant on a wrestling team. Wrestling on JV rather than on Varsity does NOT reduce opportunities to be on a team.

Is it possible that participation in the sport should be more broadly defined than merely recognizing those who participate at the varsity level, e.g., more opportunities for wrestlers to compete in the end of the season tournaments? Is it possible that the problem lays not at the highly visible varsity level but instead, at the grass roots level, at the kids' wrestling level? I'm not saying it does but rather, think widely and outside of the obvious box. Maybe its the feeder system that is crimping the system? Kids wrestling exploded onto the scene in the 1970s - is it still functioning on the same level these days? I don't know the answer to that, but maybe folks need to redefine the problem in order to see the problem. Just a thought.

Quote from: DocWrestling on April 09, 2022, 04:34:50 PM
Best system is likely a compromise with 11 or 12 weight classes for duals and 14 for tournaments.

There is a ton of great wrestling at end of sectionals and at state.  Nobody will debate that.  If you had 18 weight classes you would still have that.

I personally 11 or 12 weight classes will help the sport by greatly improving the team concept at both varsity and JV levels.  When wrestling was huge in our community we had weight classes and duals in middle school.  It was always about the team and not the individuals

Those that don't want to cut weight classes have your reasons but based on your reasons some of you should be fighting for 18 weight classes so more kids have the opportunity to wrestle varsity and more kids can wrestle at state and sectionals.  If you think that will help numbers then fight for that change and nobody knows but maybe you are right.

But anyone that thinks the status quo is working has their head buried in the sand or is lost in the their local community and does not see the big picture for the sport and what is happening in so many other districts.

And better coaches and more involved coaches is not the solution.  Why is that?  Because while programs have not been cut, the number of paid coaches has dropped dramatically over the years with fewer wrestlers and fewer "teams" and more "individuals".  Many schools still have a program but they don't even have a paid JV coach.  Add that to fewer teachers willing to put up with the hassles of parents and coaching. Have to fix the system to make it easier on coaches and draw more of them in.   First thing I would do is start the season after Thanksgiving and create a dead period over the holidays.  Let the clubs have November and they can run open tournaments over the Holiday dead period.

How do you propose to manage different weight classes for duals and tournaments??  The only way it would make any sense at all would be to just straight chop 2 of the existing weight classes out to get to 12 (113, 120, 126, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 182, 220, 285) when that probably isn't the best choice of 12 weight classes to have the greatest reduction in forfeits.  Let's just say for sake of argument that after analyzing the data, the optimal weight classes are say 115, 122, 130, 135, 140, 145, 152, 160, 170, 182, 205, and 285.  Why would we want to hold on to 12 of the old weight classes just to have 14 in tournaments if that is the case.  Another complexity no matter how you do it..  12 weight classes for conference duals, 14 for conference tournament?  I know some want to get rid of the conference tournament, but I don't see that happening.   14 weight classes for regionals, 12 for team sectionals??   It's already deemed unfair by many to determine regional team champ at the individual tourney, then you add in the fact that 2 weight classes that aren't even wrestled at team sectionals are used to determine the regional team champ.   Different weight classes for duals and tournaments is a mess IMO.

Myself, I'm not even sure cutting weight classes is going to accomplish what people want to.  I guess first, we have to clearly define the goal of cutting weight classes, analyze proposed solutions for how effectively they would achieve that goal, and then determine if the cost (loss of matches) is worth those results.  If the goal is to reduce forfeits, and we run the numbers based on the optimal weight classes whatever they project to be, and state wide we project to average 1.5 fewer matches per dual with 0.75 fewer forfeits, is that worth it??

The sport as is right now works very well for the top 20% teams and the top 20% individuals and always has.  The other 80% is why things need to be changed.  That 80% is where we are seeing declining participation.

We once had fewer weight classes and one division and old timers will tell you we had more wrestlers.

My teammates and I had so much pride in wrestling because we knew it was the most demanding sport and had the toughest practices.  We wrestled at our junior high duals for 9th grade since our high school was only 10-12.  Then we wrestled JV as sophomores because we were not good enough.  We battled for our teams in junior high and JV duals that also had full weight classes.  When we finally earned that varsity spot we were so proud and most of us went from sophomore JV's to conference champs as juniors or seniors. 

Now we make practices easy to keep numbers.  Now we hand out varsity spots like candy because that is what keeps kids involved.  Now we also somehow have to wrestle 50+ matches when 35 used to be a lot. It was not all good back then.  We used to cut a ton of weight and did it in a lot of bad ways.

The system has changed since then.  Is that the cause for issues now?  Is it that the kids have changed?

Personally I think the reason for lower participation is because middle school and JV system is so messed up.  Kids want to be varsity because then things are different.  That is the only place you get to wrestle a dual.  Kids start in 3rd grade and nothing changes in middle school or JV.  Match up some kids similar in weight into 4-man round robins. 

We care also lacking in people willing to coach at all levels. Heck, just like wrestlers all coaches want to be on the varsity staff rather than coach middle school or JV  You want better numbers for your varsity team well then you need your best coaches at the middle school and JV level

I had a lot of success as a wrestler and getting your hand raised is the ultimate reward for that hard work.  My best memories are about my teammates that worked hard but seldom got their hand raised.  We loved the team concept in duals because they wrestlers would go out there and battle to not get pinned or  not get majored.  we had a junior high heavy weight that got pinned 80% of the time and I don't remember him ever winning.  But he battled every dual and our whole team would go wild and he would have the biggest smile if he did not get pinned and saved us those team points.  If we had no duals back then in junior high or JV so many kids would have quit before they even had a chance to become better.

Getting rid of wrestling conference would also be great thing as far as duals.  Let the best teams set up duals against the best teams and the middle talented teams do the same.  Would be better for all.  We dominated our conference and when my teammates get together we only talk about our two non-conference duals we would wrestle that would be intense and in packed gyms.

Cutting weight classes won't solve a thing. Retraction will not help. If you guys want to test out your theory, go ahead. Ten years later you may learn.

There are a high number of quality wrestlers at each weight class, so some people need to quit drinking this Kool-Aid of cutting out a lower weight and an upper weight.

Quote from: Redeemer on April 10, 2022, 06:47:58 PM
Cutting weight classes won't solve a thing. Retraction will not help. If you guys want to test out your theory, go ahead. Ten years later you may learn.

There are a high number of quality wrestlers at each weight class, so some people need to quit drinking this Kool-Aid of cutting out a lower weight and an upper weight.

But wasn't it about ten years ago they moved from 12 to 14 weights and has the situation improved? Numbers up? Popularity up? You denigrate those who want to cut weights and prophesize "failure." If so, then what have we got now?

The truth is that since wrestling's hey-day about 20-40 years ago kids and society have changed. Personally, I think grit has lost its cachet with the youth of today and that is what wrestling actually had to sell - not unlike boxing in its prime, and now...it is reduced to a side show with a bunch of no-names. And I think the powers-that-be recognize this reality, but are afraid to tell the emperor that he wears no clothes. Instead, they tweak this, water down that, etc., until everyone's a "champ." And that reality is readily recognizable by participants and over time, the sport loses its luster in its ability to create character and reward grit; without that, what value does it have? The journey for the "real" champs has been diluted to the point where they too lose that incredible sense of pride in their accomplishments - knowing that they did indeed "climb a mountain." Gentlemen, this issue is far bigger than dithering over adding/deleting a couple of weights; the sport is being neutered while we sit around pondering whether to add or delete a weight, as if that is going to change the value system of today's youth. We are shooting wide of the barn.

Quote from: npope on April 10, 2022, 07:50:01 PM

Quote from: Redeemer on April 10, 2022, 06:47:58 PM
Cutting weight classes won't solve a thing. Retraction will not help. If you guys want to test out your theory, go ahead. Ten years later you may learn.

There are a high number of quality wrestlers at each weight class, so some people need to quit drinking this Kool-Aid of cutting out a lower weight and an upper weight.

But wasn't it about ten years ago they moved from 12 to 14 weights and has the situation improved? Numbers up? Popularity up? You denigrate those who want to cut weights and prophesize "failure." If so, then what have we got now?

The truth is that since wrestling's hey-day about 20-40 years ago kids and society have changed. Personally, I think grit has lost its cachet with the youth of today and that is what wrestling actually had to sell - not unlike boxing in its prime, and now...it is reduced to a side show with a bunch of no-names. And I think the powers-that-be recognize this reality, but are afraid to tell the emperor that he wears no clothes. Instead, they tweak this, water down that, etc., until everyone's a "champ." And that reality is readily recognizable by participants and over time, the sport loses its luster in its ability to create character and reward grit; without that, what value does it have? The journey for the "real" champs has been diluted to the point where they too lose that incredible sense of pride in their accomplishments - knowing that they did indeed "climb a mountain." Gentlemen, this issue is far bigger than dithering over adding/deleting a couple of weights; the sport is being neutered while we sit around pondering whether to add or delete a weight, as if that is going to change the value system of today's youth. We are shooting wide of the barn.

I think he was getting at 10 from.now.

It has.been posted that most sports have dropping numbers and wrestling is actually holding pretty steady in number yet many are wanting to push the panic button and cut weights.

We have big numbers drop in the youth for various sports in my district but yet the basketball team isn't dropping to 4 spots on the court why should wrestling?

Tennis looking into going to 3 and 2 meaning 3 singles and 2 doubles team but at this point they are still going with 4 singles and 3 doubles even though teams may forfeit one or the other. Tennis doesn't want to punish teams that have kids so most adjust to fit their needs like tournaments.

Quote from: DocWrestling on April 10, 2022, 06:41:13 PM
The sport as is right now works very well for the top 20% teams and the top 20% individuals and always has.  The other 80% is why things need to be changed.  That 80% is where we are seeing declining participation.

We once had fewer weight classes and one division and old timers will tell you we had more wrestlers.

My teammates and I had so much pride in wrestling because we knew it was the most demanding sport and had the toughest practices.  We wrestled at our junior high duals for 9th grade since our high school was only 10-12.  Then we wrestled JV as sophomores because we were not good enough.  We battled for our teams in junior high and JV duals that also had full weight classes.  When we finally earned that varsity spot we were so proud and most of us went from sophomore JV's to conference champs as juniors or seniors. 

Now we make practices easy to keep numbers.  Now we hand out varsity spots like candy because that is what keeps kids involved.  Now we also somehow have to wrestle 50+ matches when 35 used to be a lot. It was not all good back then.  We used to cut a ton of weight and did it in a lot of bad ways.

The system has changed since then.  Is that the cause for issues now?  Is it that the kids have changed?

Personally I think the reason for lower participation is because middle school and JV system is so messed up.  Kids want to be varsity because then things are different.  That is the only place you get to wrestle a dual.  Kids start in 3rd grade and nothing changes in middle school or JV.  Match up some kids similar in weight into 4-man round robins. 

We care also lacking in people willing to coach at all levels. Heck, just like wrestlers all coaches want to be on the varsity staff rather than coach middle school or JV  You want better numbers for your varsity team well then you need your best coaches at the middle school and JV level

I had a lot of success as a wrestler and getting your hand raised is the ultimate reward for that hard work.  My best memories are about my teammates that worked hard but seldom got their hand raised.  We loved the team concept in duals because they wrestlers would go out there and battle to not get pinned or  not get majored.  we had a junior high heavy weight that got pinned 80% of the time and I don't remember him ever winning.  But he battled every dual and our whole team would go wild and he would have the biggest smile if he did not get pinned and saved us those team points.  If we had no duals back then in junior high or JV so many kids would have quit before they even had a chance to become better.

Getting rid of wrestling conference would also be great thing as far as duals.  Let the best teams set up duals against the best teams and the middle talented teams do the same.  Would be better for all.  We dominated our conference and when my teammates get together we only talk about our two non-conference duals we would wrestle that would be intense and in packed gyms.

Ok now we are using 20% i thought it was like 33% or higher.

Haven't seen the final data but I thought about 40% of teams had 14 wrestlers at regionals. So we are getting to close to half.

Like I said go 2 divisions one with 14 and 1 with less.

For all that want less and talk about going to college like weights why not go to the Olympic weights with 6. Image the competition with just 6 weights! Certainly will not.have numbers but those that stick it out are going to be incredible!

Quote from: npope on April 10, 2022, 07:50:01 PM

Quote from: Redeemer on April 10, 2022, 06:47:58 PM
Cutting weight classes won't solve a thing. Retraction will not help. If you guys want to test out your theory, go ahead. Ten years later you may learn.

There are a high number of quality wrestlers at each weight class, so some people need to quit drinking this Kool-Aid of cutting out a lower weight and an upper weight.

But wasn't it about ten years ago they moved from 12 to 14 weights and has the situation improved? Numbers up? Popularity up? You denigrate those who want to cut weights and prophesize "failure." If so, then what have we got now?

The truth is that since wrestling's hey-day about 20-40 years ago kids and society have changed. Personally, I think grit has lost its cachet with the youth of today and that is what wrestling actually had to sell - not unlike boxing in its prime, and now...it is reduced to a side show with a bunch of no-names. And I think the powers-that-be recognize this reality, but are afraid to tell the emperor that he wears no clothes. Instead, they tweak this, water down that, etc., until everyone's a "champ." And that reality is readily recognizable by participants and over time, the sport loses its luster in its ability to create character and reward grit; without that, what value does it have? The journey for the "real" champs has been diluted to the point where they too lose that incredible sense of pride in their accomplishments - knowing that they did indeed "climb a mountain." Gentlemen, this issue is far bigger than dithering over adding/deleting a couple of weights; the sport is being neutered while we sit around pondering whether to add or delete a weight, as if that is going to change the value system of today's youth. We are shooting wide of the barn.

+10000 npope!!

Ok so in the past 20 years wrestling numbers are down like 1%. About the time they added the 14th weight class. In the same time frame football is down like 23%. 30k kids in 2001 and 24k in 2019. Wrestling is like 7300 in 2001 to a tick under 7k in 2019.

Wrestling was also up in 2009 so over a 20 year period wrestling has remained flat in numbers but football has taken a monster hit. Also those 2019 numbers are including 8 man.

So the fact is reducing numbers in football is not helping.

Npope I don't have 40 years ago numbers but I do believe their were more kids out 40 years ago but if you watch wrestling from back then I think you know why...... ;)

The NFHS web site is only showing 20 year rolling numbers, so here is what I found so far, I will put out more data later.

2002 111,506 Total boys out for sports (not unique athletes, many are multi sport athletes)
            7,368 wrestlers
           30,548 Football

2019 104,711 total boys (-13%)
            6,669 wrestlers (-10%)
           23,754 Football (-22.3%) This includes 8 man numbers.


I just don't know if a -13% in total boys participation and wrestling down -10% is cause for a major change like cutting weight classes.  Wrestling is managing better then other sports, especially when you add in the addition of two winter sports like Boys hockey 2002 and Boys Volleyball 2009  (roughly 4000 boys between the two sports).

If you really wan't to "fix" boys wrestling addressing 106 & 113 weight classes is the key IMO. The fight should be adding JR Inclusion not cutting weight classes!!!!!
Everyone on this "old timer forum" agrees that MS wrestling is a major concern and we lose to many kids at that age. So why isn't anyone fighting for JR Inclusion?

Quote from: factfinder on April 11, 2022, 09:15:14 AM
The NFHS web site is only showing 20 year rolling numbers, so here is what I founds far, I will put out more data later.

2002 111,506 Total boys out for sports (not unique athletes, many are multi sport athletes)
            7,368 wrestlers
           30,548 Football

2019 104,711 total boys (-13%)
            6,669 wrestlers (-10%)
           23,754 Football (-22.3%) This includes 8 man numbers.


I just don't know if a -13% in total boys participation and wrestling down -10% is cause for a major change like cutting weight classes.  Wrestling is managing better then other sports, especially when you add in the addition of two winter sports like Boys hockey 2002 and Boys Volleyball 2009  (roughly 4000 boys between the two sports).

If you really wan't to "fix" boys wrestling addressing 106 & 113 weight classes is the key IMO. The fight should be adding JR Inclusion not cutting weight classes!!!!!
Everyone on this "old timer forum" agrees that MS wrestling is a major concern and we lose to many kids at that age. So why isn't anyone fighting for JR Inclusion?

JHI inclusion would solve a lot of the problems. 1. It would add smaller kids and fill in the 106-120 spots on teams which would reduce in less forfeits. 2. It would add more wrestlers to teams and that would increase your JV team size and would increase the number of JV opportunities for teams including competitions. 3. Would allow for the excellent MS kids to be challenged. 4. It would bring more eyes to the season as you would increase the number of wrestlers in the particular season and would get rid of the MS issue with some teams starting in November and some in January. 5. It would make duals more competitive. There have been many years where we have had a 100-120lb middle school kid who would beat our varsity kids handily. The problem is the WIAA won't do this because people are more focused on State seeding, super regional/sectionals, team duals to determine who goes to state, and cutting weight classes(which won't help anything).

For those that have expressed concerns that the individual aspect is the most important, and if we remove a weight class or two to more closely fit the actual numbers of varsity participants per team, then hundreds of kids won't get to participate at state...
Why aren't you advocating to add another division or  two?  Several states have up to 6 divisions. That means hundreds more wrestlers get to participate in state. If this is about individuals getting their chance to shine, I'm surprised that this hasn't been brought up. Since it hasn't, then to all of you, why not?

It's been 20 years since we went to 14 weights (2002). Not 10 or so.  We've (WI) averaged about 10 varsity wrestlers per team for 80% of our teams for a decade or more. The NWCA has recognized this, the NFHS has recognized this here and in other states. My understanding is that the options to reduce weight classes ISN'T about an individual qualifying for state or not, it's about hopefully reducing forfeits and reducing teams being cut or co-oped.

                                     

OK-Here's my rant. 

14 weights is not about just creating more opportunities for pure numbers.  It is about creating an opportunity for people based on their current weight.  Yes, there will still be weight cutting (The U.S. is the 9th highest obese country in the world...so cutting might be relative...I digress), but it provides an opportunity for winter athletes that may not be a great fit for the other sports.  Many national wrestling sportscasters talk about the importance of the weight class 103 or 106 (David Taylor is one example among others).   For those coaching staffs who cannot fill 14 weights, then the focus is on the individual accomplishments.  The same is true in track and field or cross country.  We talk about watering down the sport with more weight classes, but aren't we really watering down our expectations?  Do we really think changing to fewer weight classes in high school will grow the sport?  So like in 10 years the sport will have more wrestlers because we switched from 14 weight classes to 12?   We must also face the fact that athletes with the most success at the next level have considerable investment of time and resources. 

I read a lot of people saying kids are soft compared to wrestling in its hay day.  That's not because we have 14 weight classes.  That's because many of us busted our humps to land where we have landed and want a better life for our kids.  Instead, they just have more stuff and not necessarily more happiness.  I read some of the posts and think that some are trying fix the current ills of society by reducing weight classes in wrestling.  I get that we want a better product, but at the end of the day there is still going to be one team state champion in each of the divisions.   It takes a lot of hard work and leadership to build a program (No matter what sport). The best programs go beyond what happens on the mat.  They have committed adults who like to work together.   They view it as civic and social.   It requires parent sacrifice, volunteer coaches, leadership, and social capital and buy-in from the participants.  They are inclusive and inviting.  It has nothing to do with the amount of weight classes.  They understand that kids need relationships and opportunities...not stuff.

Before considering any weight changes and taking opportunities away from HIGH SCHOOL students, we must answer these questions.

What is the purpose of high school wrestling?  (My answer: To create opportunities for students to apply athletic skills, practice leadership skills, build collaboration skills in an athletic context, and learn the value of high level physical activity).

What is the mission of high school wrestling?  (My answer:  To create more individuals who understand the meaning of being disciplined while understanding that being accountable to themselves makes those around them more successful.)

What is the vision for high school wrestling in Wisconsin? (My answer:  To grow the sport of wrestling so that non-wrestlers enjoy watching it and more athletes participate and become life-long supporters of wrestling, while providing an experience in wrestling that the student might not otherwise know).

What are the core values? (Hard work, discipline, sacrifice, competition, adversity, goal attainment, strength and agility development)

That data is good as it gets beyond the gut-feeling.    When making changes ask yourself?  What are we trying to change or the outcome we are trying to achieve.? (dependent variable).    Then what activities will make that change? (The independent variables)?  Then examine the relationships of those two.   These are leadership discussions. If our wrestling leaders aren't framing the conversation around focused outcomes then we are just engaging in activities or making changes and hoping for the best.

WOW! Like someone posted let's go to 6 classes and make numbers way less but have some seriously tough wrestling!

People, JHI is the answer to this 100% you fill up the 3 lowest weight classes in a click of the fingers! Also has anyone on this forum listened to any podcasts? Teague and Steve talked alot about depth and how good Wisconsin wrestling is

Go ahead and continue to want to cut weights, complain about singlets, weight plans and so on and over look the fact that through all of the adults complaining their is a rising amount of seriously talented Wisconsin wrestlers that have some how navigated all of the mess of this to become some of the top kids in the nation!

Quote from: littleguy301 on April 11, 2022, 09:13:19 AM
Npope I don't have 40 years ago numbers but I do believe their were more kids out 40 years ago but if you watch wrestling from back then I think you know why...... ;)

Not sure what the implication is here littleguy, but I am sure it is wry  :)

Speaking of wry. I liken the current discussion with that of a great sippin' whiskey. It tastes great as it is, but the drinkers complain that it costs too much so the brewer adds water diluting it and is able to decrease the price. The drinkers no longer find the taste as palatable because it is diluted and they stop buying the product. The brewer is perplexed, as he gave them what they said they wanted - cheaper whiskey.

Go figger

Football numbers have dropped quite a bit.  Thus WI has added 8-man football and it is growing greatly.

Basketball and other sports are also seeing drops and I would bet that there are fewer freshman teams right now than ever before.  Many schools have dropped paid coaches for freshman teams.  The other recent adaptation is we no longer have varsity, JV, and freshman teams.  We now have varsity, JV1, and JV2 teams.  This allows sophomores to participate on JV2 teams and still have opportunity to play.

Wrestling has grown into new states as well so not a true comparison with football which has been played in all states for a long time.

example: I have no idea if La Crosse is growing or not, but it is in WI, that doesn't mean the sport is growing in it's base.

The South, Texas to the SouthEast has seen a growth in access to wrestling, I believe MS still does not have a state Championship (maybe not even sanctioned).

Quote from: DocWrestling on April 11, 2022, 01:41:35 PM
Football numbers have dropped quite a bit.  Thus WI has added 8-man football and it is growing greatly.

Basketball and other sports are also seeing drops and I would bet that there are fewer freshman teams right now than ever before.  Many schools have dropped paid coaches for freshman teams.  The other recent adaptation is we no longer have varsity, JV, and freshman teams.  We now have varsity, JV1, and JV2 teams.  This allows sophomores to participate on JV2 teams and still have opportunity to play.

I think the factfinder showed in the 2019 that he included the 8 man numbers. So Wisconsin looks to have dropped big time in football but ismstarting close to even in wrestling but everyone is up in arms about cutting weight classes. Go figure.

Quote from: npope on April 11, 2022, 12:51:19 PM

Quote from: littleguy301 on April 11, 2022, 09:13:19 AM
Npope I don't have 40 years ago numbers but I do believe their were more kids out 40 years ago but if you watch wrestling from back then I think you know why...... ;)

Not sure what the implication is here littleguy, but I am sure it is wry  :)

Speaking of wry. I liken the current discussion with that of a great sippin' whiskey. It tastes great as it is, but the drinkers complain that it costs too much so the brewer adds water diluting it and is able to decrease the price. The drinkers no longer find the taste as palatable because it is diluted and they stop buying the product. The brewer is perplexed, as he gave them what they said they wanted - cheaper whiskey.

Go figger

Yes that is about right but you have a choice as to quite drinking or drink the water down version. You cut weight classes your not getting them back, ever!

Quote from: bigoil on April 11, 2022, 04:20:15 PM
Wrestling has grown into new states as well so not a true comparison with football which has been played in all states for a long time.

example: I have no idea if La Crosse is growing or not, but it is in WI, that doesn't mean the sport is growing in it's base.

The South, Texas to the SouthEast has seen a growth in access to wrestling, I believe MS still does not have a state Championship (maybe not even sanctioned).

Your right the south has grown but the numbers that are being used are Wisconsin numbers. Sure the La Crosse area could be frowning and others are falling but the numbers are pretty close since they when to 14 weights so not sure why everyone is so testy. Complaining about a few % and missing out on great wrestling from kids from Wisconsin, pretty amazing if you ask me.

Quote from: DocWrestling on April 11, 2022, 01:41:35 PM
Football numbers have dropped quite a bit.  Thus WI has added 8-man football and it is growing greatly.

Basketball and other sports are also seeing drops and I would bet that there are fewer freshman teams right now than ever before.  Many schools have dropped paid coaches for freshman teams.  The other recent adaptation is we no longer have varsity, JV, and freshman teams.  We now have varsity, JV1, and JV2 teams.  This allows sophomores to participate on JV2 teams and still have opportunity to play.

Doc,
I am not trying to be a jerk!!! I am sure you are a very nice guy and mean well.
But I would enjoy meeting you and learning where you get your information? 8 man football hasn't helped at all! there are already 8 man football teams Co-oped. The numbers I posted had no 8 man football teams in 2002 and the numbers were over 35,500, then they dropped mandatory 11 man teams and the numbers still dropped and teams are having to Co-op at the 8 man level already, those teams should have stayed 11 man and Co-oped sooner.
Football added smaller teams and the numbers dropped by (-22%) (41% worse then the state average)
Wrestling maintained 14 man teams and dropped (-10%) (23% better then the state average) I will take this option please!!!!!!!

First post, so bear with me as I try and offer my thoughts.

It seems to me that people who love wrestling looking for ways to fix wrestling for those who do not love wrestling won't get us anywhere.  We can't really understand why someone would choose to leave something we care so deeply about.  As a result, we could never change it in a meaningful way (unless we just got lucky) to fix it for the next generation. We have opinions and thoughts as to why, but we have little if any data.  We aren't asking the people whose information we really need.

In an effort to get data, what if we had a standard approach to ask kids why they quit or choose a different sport? Not necessarily to convince them to return, but rather to impact the next generation of young wrestlers.  I certainly don't have the form, but if we started with a questionnaire of like 5 questions we could at least start to figure out the why.  If every coach had the same set of 5 questions we could look to see if there were any trends that we could address.  Each coach could then compile the results into a database of the larger state and see if we can find a trend and maybe even a solution.  We all see it through the lens of our own experiences, but a broader gaze might be needed. 

Just an idea curious to hear people's thoughts what are people's thoughts on how NAIA runs their conference then national tournaments 10 weights but you can bring 4 extra guys at different weights. I'm not saying 10 but a lot of people seem really interested in cutting weight classes so what about 12 weight classes then when you get to the state tournament series teams that think they have two guys at the same weight get that opportunity to show that at the state level and they can follow eachother from regionals to the state finals. I really like this idea and would be cool to try it out

Quote from: No one on April 12, 2022, 11:10:32 AM
First post, so bear with me as I try and offer my thoughts.

It seems to me that people who love wrestling looking for ways to fix wrestling for those who do not love wrestling won't get us anywhere.  We can't really understand why someone would choose to leave something we care so deeply about.  As a result, we could never change it in a meaningful way (unless we just got lucky) to fix it for the next generation. We have opinions and thoughts as to why, but we have little if any data.  We aren't asking the people whose information we really need.

In an effort to get data, what if we had a standard approach to ask kids why they quit or choose a different sport? Not necessarily to convince them to return, but rather to impact the next generation of young wrestlers.  I certainly don't have the form, but if we started with a questionnaire of like 5 questions we could at least start to figure out the why.  If every coach had the same set of 5 questions we could look to see if there were any trends that we could address.  Each coach could then compile the results into a database of the larger state and see if we can find a trend and maybe even a solution.  We all see it through the lens of our own experiences, but a broader gaze might be needed.

Great thoughts and thinking.

I have asked kids that chose to not continue a sport and reasoning is all over the place. This isn't just wrestling either. Our school has been hit hard in football, falls in line with the data.

Time is one answer I hear some, the sport just isn't fun is the other answer that rears it ugly head. I think as a coach we.need to.listen to those comments amoung many others and adjust coaching to meet those also.

Not a rant but I blame myself for kids not going out. Did I ask to much and there also needs to be a level of fun in the sport. Coaches need to also look at dropping numbers and think what they can do to improve before saying the dreaded word cut.

Quote from: ObsessedObserver on April 12, 2022, 12:08:44 PM
Just an idea curious to hear people's thoughts what are people's thoughts on how NAIA runs their conference then national tournaments 10 weights but you can bring 4 extra guys at different weights. I'm not saying 10 but a lot of people seem really interested in cutting weight classes so what about 12 weight classes then when you get to the state tournament series teams that think they have two guys at the same weight get that opportunity to show that at the state level and they can follow eachother from regionals to the state finals. I really like this idea and would be cool to try it out

I'm throwing a flag on you, Obessed! Waaay outside the box  ;)

Quote from: No one on April 12, 2022, 11:10:32 AM
First post, so bear with me as I try and offer my thoughts.

It seems to me that people who love wrestling looking for ways to fix wrestling for those who do not love wrestling won't get us anywhere.  We can't really understand why someone would choose to leave something we care so deeply about.  As a result, we could never change it in a meaningful way (unless we just got lucky) to fix it for the next generation. We have opinions and thoughts as to why, but we have little if any data.  We aren't asking the people whose information we really need.

In an effort to get data, what if we had a standard approach to ask kids why they quit or choose a different sport? Not necessarily to convince them to return, but rather to impact the next generation of young wrestlers.  I certainly don't have the form, but if we started with a questionnaire of like 5 questions we could at least start to figure out the why.  If every coach had the same set of 5 questions we could look to see if there were any trends that we could address.  Each coach could then compile the results into a database of the larger state and see if we can find a trend and maybe even a solution.  We all see it through the lens of our own experiences, but a broader gaze might be needed.

Thanks for chiming in and joining the conversation. Yes, data - good data - the right data, would be helpful in better understanding. But littleguy kinda hit on my thoughts, I bet I could tick off about 4 out of the top 5 reasons - they seem obvious to me (because I saw them both as a coach and as a competitor) and they were the same ones I had when I let other sports fall by the wayside as I grew up.

1. No fun
2. Not good enough to get playing time
3. Busy with other interests
4. Didn't like getting smashed (I was 120 pounds looking for playing time as a junior in football - yikes!!)
5. Nobody cares about wrestling, not even their (girl)friends

I bet data would support a lot of the rationale for quitting.

That's kind of the idea behind accumulating data, we wouldn't have to guess.  I too have had wrestlers list those very same reason, but this is anecdotal.  If we had hard data we could know for sure and make adjustments to make the sport more attractive.  If all the coaches around the state find that we have the same 3 reasons why kids are quitting, we could then explore ways to improve rather than just guessing about adding or cutting weight classes.  We may even find that no changes are needed, but right now we are just guessing based on our own personal experiences.

Quote from: npope on April 12, 2022, 12:26:56 PM

Quote from: ObsessedObserver on April 12, 2022, 12:08:44 PM
Just an idea curious to hear people's thoughts what are people's thoughts on how NAIA runs their conference then national tournaments 10 weights but you can bring 4 extra guys at different weights. I'm not saying 10 but a lot of people seem really interested in cutting weight classes so what about 12 weight classes then when you get to the state tournament series teams that think they have two guys at the same weight get that opportunity to show that at the state level and they can follow eachother from regionals to the state finals. I really like this idea and would be cool to try it out

I'm throwing a flag on you, Obessed! Waaay outside the box  ;)

You mean like MHSSA

Michigan High School Wrestling 2021-2022

https://www.mhsaa.com/portals/0/documents/wr/psti.pdf (https://www.mhsaa.com/portals/0/documents/wr/psti.pdf)

Quote from: LaValle on April 12, 2022, 01:21:15 PM

Quote from: npope on April 12, 2022, 12:26:56 PM

Quote from: ObsessedObserver on April 12, 2022, 12:08:44 PM
Just an idea curious to hear people's thoughts what are people's thoughts on how NAIA runs their conference then national tournaments 10 weights but you can bring 4 extra guys at different weights. I'm not saying 10 but a lot of people seem really interested in cutting weight classes so what about 12 weight classes then when you get to the state tournament series teams that think they have two guys at the same weight get that opportunity to show that at the state level and they can follow eachother from regionals to the state finals. I really like this idea and would be cool to try it out

I'm throwing a flag on you, Obessed! Waaay outside the box  ;)

You mean like MHSSA

Michigan High School Wrestling 2021-2022

https://www.mhsaa.com/portals/0/documents/wr/psti.pdf (https://www.mhsaa.com/portals/0/documents/wr/psti.pdf)

INDIVIDUAL FORMAT - In the Individual tournament series, school teams are assigned to one of 8 Districts in
each Division where wrestlers compete as individuals in bracketed, seeded competition. Individual matches will
take place in 14 weight classes with the top four wrestlers advancing to one of 4 Regionals in each Division with
two Districts feeding each Regional. The top four wrestlers in each weight class at the Regional tournament
qualify for the MHSAA Individual Finals at Ford Field. A school may enter a maximum of 14 wrestlers at the
Individual District Tournament with no more than 2 wrestlers in any one weight class. Pairings for the Individual
Finals will consist of seeding the four Regional champions, then completing the remainder of the bracket based
on formula.



They also use the old weight....Darn NFHS rule breakers

I love the idea of 12 for the regular season and 14 for regionals --> state with multiple kids possible in each weight. It's the best of both worlds actually.

What a great compromise.

On the reasons that kids quit, that would be interesting if kids would be honest about it.

Rather than have each individual coach have their own, why not have a shared link that all the data would populate all in one spot? If that's something a bunch of coaches would use, I'd be happy to make a google form to make it happen.

8-man football has saved a lot of football "opportunities" to play

The only "opportunities" lost in wrestling are when teams are cut or co-oped.

Without 8-man football there would be a lot fewer high school football teams and a lot of kids that would not have had the chance to play football.

I am proponent of change in wrestling to prevent further loss of wrestling teams. To be honest I am not even worried about losing wrestlers.  We have to keep the teams and the coaches in budgets to even give wrestlers and opportunity to compete.

I do believe that it is harder for administrators to cut wrestling when teams have an easier chance to come loser to fulfilling a full roster meaning most of the weight classes.

Quote from: DocWrestling on April 12, 2022, 09:47:13 PM
8-man football has saved a lot of football "opportunities" to play

The only "opportunities" lost in wrestling are when teams are cut or co-oped.

Without 8-man football there would be a lot fewer high school football teams and a lot of kids that would not have had the chance to play football.

I am proponent of change in wrestling to prevent further loss of wrestling teams. To be honest I am not even worried about losing wrestlers.  We have to keep the teams and the coaches in budgets to even give wrestlers and opportunity to compete.

I do believe that it is harder for administrators to cut wrestling when teams have an easier chance to come loser to fulfilling a full roster meaning most of the weight classes.

Dear lord...... so your ok if we keep all the teams but go to 5 weight classes and our numbers drop by thousands? There are no "opportunities" lost in this situation. This is an awful take.

Quote from: DocWrestling on April 12, 2022, 09:47:13 PM
8-man football has saved a lot of football "opportunities" to play

The only "opportunities" lost in wrestling are when teams are cut or co-oped. THEY ARE CO-OPING AT THE 8 MAN LEVEL, PLEASE DO SOME RESEARCH!!

Without 8-man football there would be a lot fewer high school football teams and a lot of kids that would not have had the chance to play football. THEY WOULD NEED TO CO-OP.

I am proponent of change in wrestling to prevent further loss of wrestling teams. To be honest I am not even worried about losing wrestlers.  We have to keep the teams and the coaches in budgets to even give wrestlers and opportunity to compete.You are assuming that Co-oping would hurt opportunity's? that hasn't held true in other states. MN has co-oped 30+ teams in the past 20 years and participation numbers have held, and in some communities the numbers went up!





I do believe that it is harder for administrators to cut wrestling when teams have an easier chance to come loser to fulfilling a full roster meaning most of the weight classes.

The data would support WI schools should consider CO-OPING as a possible solution before cutting weight classes.

Wisconsin ranks 41 out of 50 for the least amount of students per school with 290 students per school, the national average is 384 per "Public" school.
Wisconsin ranks 19th for total student body. (Actually real strong)
Wisconsin ranks 4th highest in the nation with 14% attending private schools.
With the high participation in private schools Wisconsin may have the smallest student enrollment per school in the nation.

Local comparison

             Total schools.       Free and reduced lunch.        students per school.       private school %.   teacher student ratio
IL.              4139.                    55%                                     373                               11%                   14:1

MI              3181                     49%                                     358                                8%                     16:1

WI             2378                      44%                                   (290)                                   14%                    14:1

MN            1982                       40%                                    335                                8%                      14:1

IA             1164                       44%                                    321                                9%                       14:1

No wonder WI taxes are so high!!!

It may be easier to make a varsity line up (for any sport) in WI than any other state in the nation based on the amount of schools per student body and moderate free and reduced %'s.

So reducing to 12 weight classes is losing "opportunities" to wrestle because JV is not an "opportunity" but having teams co-op is not losing opportunities?

If two teams co-op that is losing 14 weight classes in I guess my distorted mind?

Co-ops lead to lost teams, lost wrestling rooms, and lost coaches.

Quote from: DocWrestling on April 13, 2022, 07:39:49 AM
So reducing to 12 weight classes is losing "opportunities" to wrestle because JV is not an "opportunity" but having teams co-op is not losing opportunities?

If two teams co-op that is losing 14 weight classes in I guess my distorted mind?

Co-ops lead to lost teams, lost wrestling rooms, and lost coaches.

That hasn't held true!!
8/9 man football hasn't saved numbers in WI,MI or Il, but Co-oping in MN has help maintain total participation.
Cutting to 8/9 football did not stop co-oping, so they went from 11 to 8 and still ended up co-oping!!
I am also saying sports are not the priority, but I am suggesting some of these schools should co-op and or merge.
Cutting positions in wrestling or football is not going to solve small town schools from overall numbers steadily declining.

Around and around we go!

First it was about varsity opportunities.  Now it is about "participation"?

Team A and Team B each have 14 varsity opportunities for a total of 28

Co-op A/B only has 14 weight varsity opportunities?  I thought you said varsity opportunities were the key to numbers of wrestlers participating?  How is participation staying the same with only 14 varsity spots between 2 high schools when if we decrease a high school by 2 weight classes it is going to hurt numbers?

Quote from: DocWrestling on April 13, 2022, 08:27:40 AM
Around and around we go!

First it was about varsity opportunities.  Now it is about "participation"?

Team A and Team B each have 14 varsity opportunities for a total of 28

Co-op A/B only has 14 weight varsity opportunities?  I thought you said varsity opportunities were the key to numbers of wrestlers participating?  How is participation staying the same with only 14 varsity spots between 2 high schools when if we decrease a high school by 2 weight classes it is going to hurt numbers?

I see what your saying and it is an around an around arguement. I think what these numbers are showing isnt a sports thing it is more of maybe schools should co-op instead. Less than 300 students a school is the average, man that is alot of small school that are costing the tax payer some serious money!

I like wrestling numbers in the past 20 years vs football numbers in the same time period.

Some co-op have worked real well over the years. Doc....would younrather have a co-op vs losing a program for good?

Quote from: DocWrestling on April 13, 2022, 08:27:40 AM
Around and around we go!

First it was about varsity opportunities.  Now it is about "participation"?

Team A and Team B each have 14 varsity opportunities for a total of 28

Co-op A/B only has 14 weight varsity opportunities?  I thought you said varsity opportunities were the key to numbers of wrestlers participating?  How is participation staying the same with only 14 varsity spots between 2 high schools when if we decrease a high school by 2 weight classes it is going to hurt numbers?

Your not getting this! Dropping to 12 WILL NOT STOP the need to eventually Co-op for 80% of the schools struggling to get numbers.
That leaves you with 2 options.
Option A) 2 schools with 14 opportunities?
Option B) 2 schools with 12 opportunities?
Wisconsins small schools are declining in enrollment every year, But the overall student body is very strong do to new booming towns.
Small schools need to co-op or merge together! Wisconsin has more brick and mortar building per student than any state out there when you factor in privet schools. 
Cutting weight classes is similar to cutting off an arm to fix colon cancer.

I also understand your agenda is different then mine. I want to do what ever we need to do to provide opportunities for kids whether it's a co-op or not. You are motivated to keep teams and mascots in place over kids!!
This is the issue a lot of old timers have, they are choosing town pride over kids getting opportunities. They are not in tune with modern family's and the flexibility so many have these days to put their kids in the best situations.

What about not looking for next year's fix/adjustment.   What if we look at participation as a seperate issue? With an If ...Then chart.   If we increase numbers at the youth level by doing X then we will have more numbers in middle school... if we have more numbers in middle school then we have more in high school.   Does somebody have a model that outlines activities and roles ?  I remember the 1980s the basketball coaches association all got together and developed a Saturday morning youth curriculum and outlined the skills that would be worked on in 3rd through 6th grade.  No emphasis on competition just activities....their numbers increased.  Bottom line:  what's the solution to increasing participation vs.  changing the proportion of wrestlers to weight classes by cutting the denominator?    When there's problems with numbers whether it's budgets or allocations, the easy solution is always to cut.  The creative and harder solutions require effort and dedication to grow.  Isn't this what the IOC did to "improve" wrestling? 

Quote from: greysquirrelmobile on April 13, 2022, 01:34:37 PM
What about not looking for next year's fix/adjustment.   What if we look at participation as a seperate issue? With an If ...Then chart.   If we increase numbers at the youth level by doing X then we will have more numbers in middle school... if we have more numbers in middle school then we have more in high school.   Does somebody have a model that outlines activities and roles ?  I remedying the 1980s the basketball coaches association all got together and developed a Saturday morning youth curriculum and outlined the skills that would be worked on in 3rd through 6th grade. No emphasis on competition just activities.    Bottom line:  what's the solution to increasing participation vs.  changing the proportion of wrestlers to weight classes by cutting the denominator?    When there's problems with numbers whether it's budgets or allocations, the easy solution is always to cut.  The creative and harder solutions require effort and dedication to grow.  Isn't this what the IOC did to "improve" wrestling?

Probably our biggest problem as a sport imo. More matches than practices especially for kids new to the sport at a young age.

Here is my final break down, I have no more band with left to dive in any deeper. There doesn't seem to be any trends that jump off the page. It seems thing go up and down in every state with participation spikes as high as 12% and lows that bottom out a -21%.
First observation is the participation rate for wrestling to total male athlete's (many may be duplicated with multi sport athletes) for the past 20 years.

>Wisc median ave. for total male athletes is 110,085 a year, with 7433 wrestlers a year 6.7%
>MN Median ave. for total male athletes is 118,696 a year, with 8137 wrestlers a year 6.8%
>Iowa median ave. for total male athletes is 85,755 a year, with 6772 wrestler a year 7.8%
>IL median ave. for total male athletes is 192,632 a year, with 15540 wrestlers a year 8.0%
>MI median ave. for total male athletes is 172,291 a year, with 10,810 wrestlers a year 6.2%
This gives a baseline of 7.1% participation rate, so if Wisconsin was at 7.1 they would have an additional 383 wrestlers.

             2002                       2009                                 2012                        2019

Wisc.      7368.                      8337.  (+969)                   7399. (+31)              6669. (down -699)
MN.        8587.                      7911.  (-676)                    8137 (-450)               8085  (down -502)
Iowa.      6490.                      7032.  (-542)                    7044. (+554)            6523.  (up +33)
IL.         14,655.                   16,213. (-1558)                 17112.(+2457)          14170 (down -485)
MI.        11624.                     11546. (-78)                     10904. (-720)            9167. (down -2457)  YIKES

In summary it looks as the wrestling numbers goes up and down in close parallel to total all sports participation numbers.

Map of programs
https://portal.nwcaonline.com/aspx/ProgramsMap?fbclid=IwAR2hechNbIKAbtCk0m7rmH97CugYRva9GcDWxu3kCpHQNRK7000S7JW0A1I

High school participation
https://www.nwcaonline.com/growing-wrestling/high-school-participation-numbers/

Quote from: greysquirrelmobile on April 13, 2022, 01:34:37 PM
What about not looking for next year's fix/adjustment.   What if we look at participation as a seperate issue? With an If ...Then chart.   If we increase numbers at the youth level by doing X then we will have more numbers in middle school... if we have more numbers in middle school then we have more in high school.   Does somebody have a model that outlines activities and roles ?  I remember the 1980s the basketball coaches association all got together and developed a Saturday morning youth curriculum and outlined the skills that would be worked on in 3rd through 6th grade.  No emphasis on competition just activities....their numbers increased.  Bottom line:  what's the solution to increasing participation vs.  changing the proportion of wrestlers to weight classes by cutting the denominator?    When there's problems with numbers whether it's budgets or allocations, the easy solution is always to cut.  The creative and harder solutions require effort and dedication to grow.  Isn't this what the IOC did to "improve" wrestling?

Our youth numbers are high. I would agree that our young kids compete too much and they burn out. The problem we run into is that parents WANT that and if you as a club don't don't do that, they'll figure out a way. It's not just wrestling. It's all sports.

Quote from: Ghetto on April 14, 2022, 12:57:48 PM

Quote from: greysquirrelmobile on April 13, 2022, 01:34:37 PM
What about not looking for next year's fix/adjustment.   What if we look at participation as a seperate issue? With an If ...Then chart.   If we increase numbers at the youth level by doing X then we will have more numbers in middle school... if we have more numbers in middle school then we have more in high school.   Does somebody have a model that outlines activities and roles ?  I remember the 1980s the basketball coaches association all got together and developed a Saturday morning youth curriculum and outlined the skills that would be worked on in 3rd through 6th grade.  No emphasis on competition just activities....their numbers increased.  Bottom line:  what's the solution to increasing participation vs.  changing the proportion of wrestlers to weight classes by cutting the denominator?    When there's problems with numbers whether it's budgets or allocations, the easy solution is always to cut.  The creative and harder solutions require effort and dedication to grow.  Isn't this what the IOC did to "improve" wrestling?

Our youth numbers are high. I would agree that our young kids compete too much and they burn out. The problem we run into is that parents WANT that and if you as a club don't don't do that, they'll figure out a way. It's not just wrestling. It's all sports.

Too many parents think that their kid wants it, that they aren't going to be the one that burns out, maybe because too many parents want their kids to want it.  Some parents are right, and their kid wants to compete and to practice a lot, but many, perhaps most, are not, and their kids flame out.  Very few parents see burn out coming in time to do anything about it.  Usually they don't see it until their kid decides they are done.  Don't make your kid think that part of making you happy is them wanting it, because then they will want it for the wrong reason, and you won't see it.  It's very hard to tell when a kid wants it for themselves and when they are trying to please a parent.  For me, the most important thing is to make sure the kids keep having fun, because if it's not fun, they move on to something that is.

Quote from: ChargerDad on April 15, 2022, 08:23:46 AM

Quote from: Ghetto on April 14, 2022, 12:57:48 PM

Quote from: greysquirrelmobile on April 13, 2022, 01:34:37 PM
What about not looking for next year's fix/adjustment.   What if we look at participation as a seperate issue? With an If ...Then chart.   If we increase numbers at the youth level by doing X then we will have more numbers in middle school... if we have more numbers in middle school then we have more in high school.   Does somebody have a model that outlines activities and roles ?  I remember the 1980s the basketball coaches association all got together and developed a Saturday morning youth curriculum and outlined the skills that would be worked on in 3rd through 6th grade.  No emphasis on competition just activities....their numbers increased.  Bottom line:  what's the solution to increasing participation vs.  changing the proportion of wrestlers to weight classes by cutting the denominator?    When there's problems with numbers whether it's budgets or allocations, the easy solution is always to cut.  The creative and harder solutions require effort and dedication to grow.  Isn't this what the IOC did to "improve" wrestling?

Our youth numbers are high. I would agree that our young kids compete too much and they burn out. The problem we run into is that parents WANT that and if you as a club don't don't do that, they'll figure out a way. It's not just wrestling. It's all sports.

Too many parents think that their kid wants it, that they aren't going to be the one that burns out, maybe because too many parents want their kids to want it.  Some parents are right, and their kid wants to compete and to practice a lot, but many, perhaps most, are not, and their kids flame out.  Very few parents see burn out coming in time to do anything about it.  Usually they don't see it until their kid decides they are done.  Don't make your kid think that part of making you happy is them wanting it, because then they will want it for the wrong reason, and you won't see it.  It's very hard to tell when a kid wants it for themselves and when they are trying to please a parent.  For me, the most important thing is to make sure the kids keep having fun, because if it's not fun, they move on to something that is.

+1000
Very well said!
Every parent hopes their child is the next Spencer Lee or Kyle Snyder that wins everything from 2nd grade all the way to NCAA titles. And maybe a few are? But I also see a lot of burn out from kids (and parents) trying to keep up with other elite kids, thinking they are falling behind if they are not getting in 5-8 "hard" practices a week.
Working real hard and going to practices with average technique will never catch up to consistent practices with great technique!! Be smart about where the kids train and then pull off the gas and let them have balance in their life.
Remember even in the Big 10 most teams are only practicing 3-4x a week, and that's the most elite dedicated young men out there in the wrestling world!

Doing JHI would solve 3 of the weight class issues in a heartbeat. 106, 113 and 120.  Sounds like in the states they have combined 182 and 195 didnt result in the numbers people first thought. I have heard that basically the numbers went down in that area due to reducing a weight class and states with out JHI still are struggling to fill the lowest 3 classes.

Quote from: hammer on April 18, 2022, 10:25:35 AM
Doing JHI would solve 3 of the weight class issues in a heartbeat. 106, 113 and 120.  Sounds like in the states they have combined 182 and 195 didnt result in the numbers people first thought. I have heard that basically the numbers went down in that area due to reducing a weight class and states with out JHI still are struggling to fill the lowest 3 classes.

Yea, cutting weight classes will only convince more low-tier/middle tier middle school wrestlers to quit wrestling... and the point of   burnout and parents mismanaging their children is more accurate than the 14 weight classes.

As I said before, the level of competition at all 14 weights is pretty high at the top and cutting weights will only be detrimental in the long run. Just because many of the low--tier wrestlers quit wrestling in middle school, doesn't mean the competition at the top is hurting.. and cutting classes won't convince these low-tier wrestlers to stick it out. It's parents and coaches.

It's sad to see some of the logic on this thread about redrawing the weight classes.

Quote from: Redeemer on May 06, 2022, 08:51:13 AM

Quote from: hammer on April 18, 2022, 10:25:35 AM
Doing JHI would solve 3 of the weight class issues in a heartbeat. 106, 113 and 120.  Sounds like in the states they have combined 182 and 195 didnt result in the numbers people first thought. I have heard that basically the numbers went down in that area due to reducing a weight class and states with out JHI still are struggling to fill the lowest 3 classes.

Yea, cutting weight classes will only convince more low-tier/middle tier middle school wrestlers to quit wrestling... and the point of   burnout and parents mismanaging their children is more accurate than the 14 weight classes.

As I said before, the level of competition at all 14 weights is pretty high at the top and cutting weights will only be detrimental in the long run. Just because many of the low--tier wrestlers quit wrestling in middle school, doesn't mean the competition at the top is hurting.. and cutting classes won't convince these low-tier wrestlers to stick it out. It's parents and coaches.

It's sad to see some of the logic on this thread about redrawing the weight classes.

Lack of logic being used. Other sports have like football have been given as an example to show it doesn't help the sport.

Quote from: wrastle63 on May 06, 2022, 08:56:48 AM

Quote from: Redeemer on May 06, 2022, 08:51:13 AM

Quote from: hammer on April 18, 2022, 10:25:35 AM
Doing JHI would solve 3 of the weight class issues in a heartbeat. 106, 113 and 120.  Sounds like in the states they have combined 182 and 195 didnt result in the numbers people first thought. I have heard that basically the numbers went down in that area due to reducing a weight class and states with out JHI still are struggling to fill the lowest 3 classes.

Yea, cutting weight classes will only convince more low-tier/middle tier middle school wrestlers to quit wrestling... and the point of   burnout and parents mismanaging their children is more accurate than the 14 weight classes.

As I said before, the level of competition at all 14 weights is pretty high at the top and cutting weights will only be detrimental in the long run. Just because many of the low--tier wrestlers quit wrestling in middle school, doesn't mean the competition at the top is hurting.. and cutting classes won't convince these low-tier wrestlers to stick it out. It's parents and coaches.

It's sad to see some of the logic on this thread about redrawing the weight classes.

Lack of logic being used THAT AGREES WITH THE POSITION I'VE TAKEN. Other sports have like football have been given as an example to show it doesn't help the sport.

Fixed it for you.

Quote from: Ghetto on May 06, 2022, 10:27:37 AM

Quote from: wrastle63 on May 06, 2022, 08:56:48 AM

Quote from: Redeemer on May 06, 2022, 08:51:13 AM

Quote from: hammer on April 18, 2022, 10:25:35 AM
Doing JHI would solve 3 of the weight class issues in a heartbeat. 106, 113 and 120.  Sounds like in the states they have combined 182 and 195 didnt result in the numbers people first thought. I have heard that basically the numbers went down in that area due to reducing a weight class and states with out JHI still are struggling to fill the lowest 3 classes.

Yea, cutting weight classes will only convince more low-tier/middle tier middle school wrestlers to quit wrestling... and the point of   burnout and parents mismanaging their children is more accurate than the 14 weight classes.

As I said before, the level of competition at all 14 weights is pretty high at the top and cutting weights will only be detrimental in the long run. Just because many of the low--tier wrestlers quit wrestling in middle school, doesn't mean the competition at the top is hurting.. and cutting classes won't convince these low-tier wrestlers to stick it out. It's parents and coaches.

It's sad to see some of the logic on this thread about redrawing the weight classes.

Lack of logic being used THAT AGREES WITH THE POSITION I'VE TAKEN. Other sports have like football have been given as an example to show it doesn't help the sport.

Fixed it for you.

No I gave a solution of having 12 weights for duals to the "problem" of duals. That doesn't hurt individuals, doesn't bring less kids to the sport, doesn't bring less kids to sectionals, state, etc. but still makes duals better. 

Don't make a change like that for something that you HOPE MIGHT make a better product. There will still be huge lopsided duals with forfeits and quick pins. 

Quote from: wrastle63 on May 06, 2022, 10:31:11 AM

Quote from: Ghetto on May 06, 2022, 10:27:37 AM

Quote from: wrastle63 on May 06, 2022, 08:56:48 AM

Quote from: Redeemer on May 06, 2022, 08:51:13 AM

Quote from: hammer on April 18, 2022, 10:25:35 AM
Doing JHI would solve 3 of the weight class issues in a heartbeat. 106, 113 and 120.  Sounds like in the states they have combined 182 and 195 didnt result in the numbers people first thought. I have heard that basically the numbers went down in that area due to reducing a weight class and states with out JHI still are struggling to fill the lowest 3 classes.

Yea, cutting weight classes will only convince more low-tier/middle tier middle school wrestlers to quit wrestling... and the point of   burnout and parents mismanaging their children is more accurate than the 14 weight classes.

As I said before, the level of competition at all 14 weights is pretty high at the top and cutting weights will only be detrimental in the long run. Just because many of the low--tier wrestlers quit wrestling in middle school, doesn't mean the competition at the top is hurting.. and cutting classes won't convince these low-tier wrestlers to stick it out. It's parents and coaches.

It's sad to see some of the logic on this thread about redrawing the weight classes.

Lack of logic being used THAT AGREES WITH THE POSITION I'VE TAKEN. Other sports have like football have been given as an example to show it doesn't help the sport.

Fixed it for you.

No I gave a solution of having 12 weights for duals to the "problem" of duals. That doesn't hurt individuals, doesn't bring less kids to the sport, doesn't bring less kids to sectionals, state, etc. but still makes duals better.

I think that's a great start. Doesn't hurt the large majority of teams and allows for the same state tournament.

I also like being able to send 14 kids to regionals regardless of weight.

The level and depth of talent at 106, 113, 120, and 126 was pretty fun to follow last season... sorry to see some of you guys not appreciating it, while most of us did.