Boy I have noticed a few coaching jobs opening up on this forum and heard of a few through word of mouth.
Is this a trend or are coaches retiring?
Yes.
Lotta headache for very little money. Not like you run out of passion; but you do run out of time after a while. When I went from classroom to counseling that pretty much ending coaching. But that's my spiel. I'm guessing some are getting older and/or moving on to other things. For me it's hard to coach without being able to wrestle with 'em. I gotta a knee that really doesn't want me to wrestle.
I say it repeatedly that wrestling is the toughest sport to coach of all the high school sports mainly due to the schedule.
1) It takes more time than any other sport. More time coaching and more time away from family. Having a dual every week and then an all day tournament most Saturdays is not something any other sport has to do. Need to find a way to at least free up more weekends. Other sports have their all day events during school hours and kids miss a day of school. (Tennis, golf, baseball, etc) Why not wrestling? Volleyball and maybe soccer are the only sports that have most of their tournament competitions on weekends. Need to move more tournaments to all day Fridays or Friday nights.
2) It overlaps both Thanksgiving and Christmas- Need to alter calendar or create some dead periods of coaches and wrestler families
3) Coaching staffs are small with many kids with a lot of needs and then wrestling rules require a lot of documentation and hassles. Certainly a lot easier to be a club coach than a high school coach.
4) Wrestlers don't need 50 matches and not many coaches want schedules that give them 50 matches but difficult for them to not go to maximum events when people see others doing it.
5) It is tough on your body if you actually want to wrestle or even demonstrate.
The pay sucks for all of that. Changing the schedule and reducing events I believe would draw in more wrestlers and more coaches. For those that want a longer season or even more events, the WIAA should continue the rule of allowing 2 out of school events during the season and thus there would be more "open" tournaments the diehard wrestlers could still go to.
Add dealing with Administrations, WIAA, parents, no days off for 4 months, etc....
In my opinion the actually coaching is the easy and fun part!
1. Schools lack of support toward wrestling is on the most part pretty limited.
2. I dont think the average parent or fan understands what coaches need to follow up with, especially this year. Skin sheets, covid sheets, daily feeling well sheets, mat cleaning schedules, setting up weight management appointment, grade issues, discipline issues. I know people want results and it only takes a bit to enter but after filling out all this covid stuff daily it gets old and everything becomes just a little bit and that adds up big time.
3. Dealing with informing parents of changes.
4. The time suck like mentioned.
5. Fund raisers
6. Out of pocket cost like individual awards to promote the program.
7. For the non school employees that coach the balancing act of your job, amount of take off time you need, employers understanding of this, money lost at your job to what your getting paid to coach.
Lots go in and when you toss in the Monday morning quarterbacks always trying to spout yhier opinion it gets really old.
Quote from: littleguy301 on February 25, 2021, 08:36:13 AM
In my opinion the actually coaching is the easy and fun part!
1. Schools lack of support toward wrestling is on the most part pretty limited.
2. I dont think the average parent or fan understands what coaches need to follow up with, especially this year. Skin sheets, covid sheets, daily feeling well sheets, mat cleaning schedules, setting up weight management appointment, grade issues, discipline issues. I know people want results and it only takes a bit to enter but after filling out all this covid stuff daily it gets old and everything becomes just a little bit and that adds up big time.
3. Dealing with informing parents of changes.
4. The time suck like mentioned.
5. Fund raisers
6. Out of pocket cost like individual awards to promote the program.
7. For the non school employees that coach the balancing act of your job, amount of take off time you need, employers understanding of this, money lost at your job to what your getting paid to coach.
Lots go in and when you toss in the Monday morning quarterbacks always trying to spout yhier opinion it gets really old.
Having an AD and administrative team who truly supports you is huge. We've been blessed with two who really cared about helping our program, even though they never wrestled.
The amount of paper we have to push is crazy. If you aren't a paper/organized person, you better have one on your staff or it is going to be a really tough road.
This year, with only quads and duals, the weekend stress was much less for coaches. If we take nothing out of this Covid season, it's that the 7/7 rule HAS to go away. It's not a NFHS rule as far as I know, as every state seems to have a different way of doing things. Having less 12 hour Saturdays is good for everyone involved.
I am not sure when schools stopped hiring teachers who could also coach, but it goes against what we believe in education. If you are truly trying to educate the whole child and build relationships, it is time to start hiring people who are willing to coach and teach.
Tough year to coach no doubt. It was never so clear that we are are not the favorite sport by the WIAA. Hard to explain to kids why their basketball counterparts could play 4 games per week. Really found out we have no voice when giving opinions and it makes you wonder at times if it's worth it.
As far as teachers needing to be the coach not really sure what that has to do with anything. While it's easier to have a coach in the school for recruiting it would seem odd not to have the best coach in the room whether they are a teacher or a carpenter. Between youth, junior high and high school we've had one coach amongst them all that was a teacher for the last 22 years.
Saturdays, Saturdays, Saturdays.
I get that COVID gave us some extra things to navigate but BOY as a high school wrestling coach for the last 8 years it sure was refreshing to have a weekend off in the winter. Perhaps having these weekends made some coaches wonder, how am I gonna do a regular season next year?
People outside of our sport don't understand that a Saturday Scramble means Friday practice until 5:30/6 staying in the weight room until 6:30/7 to make sure a kid runs off some weight...Being to school at 4:30 or 5am and then getting home at 8-9 pm. Just to have enough energy to make sure all the kids get picked up by the time you make it home or go get some food its time for bed. Just to wake up Sunday upload the film, email parents, plan practice for the next week and hopefully find time to play your role as a family member before its Monday and time to start the grind again.
Covid to me taught us we have to find a way to do Friday PM or Thursday afternoon tourney's in order to open up a few weekends so coaches are allowed to be human beings and maybe be able to stay awake for the entire packer game :o
Coaches,
I beg of you to start a trend. Even if the 7/7 rule stays, you do not have to go to 7 Saturday tournaments. Your wrestlers will thank you, their families and yours will thank you. If they go to 2-3 less tournaments is that really going to change who they are at end of season. I think many might get better from an hour Saturday morning practice if needed where it can be optional and you can work individually with kids. Those are the Saturdays where you bring in your kids, etc and it is fun and relaxed and does not take up the whole day. Maybe even bring in some middle school kids to roll around and get to know you.
If you can't just eliminate those matches then add some duals or triangulars to replace tournaments on some Friday nights or weeknights!
What if 3 non-conference programs got together and just had some live wrestling on a Friday after school? Wouldnt all that live wrestling with a fun relaxed atmosphere be better and more wrestling than your kids will get sitting at a tournament all day Saturday. Pretty sure you could do this if you called it one of your competitions. Then take all the money you would have spent on refs, workers, etc and get the kids pizza and expand the brotherhood as wrestlers hang with kids from other teams.
YOU CAN DO IT DIFFERENTLY! Even without rule changes
Preach....
We are thankful to attend 2 Friday night varsity tournaments in January @ Port Washington & Homestead and 3 JV tournaments on weeknights @ Fort Atkinson, LG Badger & host one of our own.
Taking away kids Saturdays, especially at the JV level, does not help the sport or numbers whatsoever. I'm all in on this movement!
For me, I love Saturday tourneys Given the choice, I would opt out of our conference schedule, schedule maybe one single dual per week with teams we can compete with and do mostly Saturday Individual tournaments. The kids I coach agree with me and through the years most of the kids said the same thing.
I particularly hate weekday tris and quads. It is too late on a week night and that is worse if you are home and have to set up and tear down. WAY too much when you see basketball long gone by 9:00 at the latest.
Eliminate the recent additional tech stuff, including trackwrestling and the like.
Eliminate all the weigh loss control stuff that does NOTHING to make kids any safer.
All I need as a coach is your weigh in sheet and your wrestler's names, then let's wrestle.
People who are cheaters will cheat no matter what we do.
We are weighing in at home this year during COVID. We did this a number of years ago as well. In my opinion, one of the best things we have ever done, period. Actually, when we did home weigh ins before it was in the morning of the competition, this was good for kids and good for wrestling.
Back to the tech stuff. The day my assistant can't or won't do it, I am out.
I love practice, I love coaching, I love individual tournaments. That is what I want to do.
To those who love the technology, seeding meetings are maybe 20 minutes shorter at a normal 8-12 team tournament. Is it really worth all the extra stuff?
Yes, it is a great deal of time. I have spent most of my career coaching three sports. I am normally at school by 6:30 or 7:00 and for most of my thirty plus years I am the last one leaving the parking lot almost every day(this year with COVID the exception).
Another thing for me is that I have forever worked in a district that does not support sports in general, wrestling in particular. That is a killer. A couple of years ago, we cut middle school sports for a second time. It ultimately is the death knell for all sports over time.
Lastly, on top of this we have people posting about coaches not promoting their sport enough. Trust me, they do. A more important question to me is why doesn't football need to do this? Or basketball?
It is one more thing that gets dubious results(trust me, I've been through it all).
Quote from: padre on February 25, 2021, 10:18:02 AM
As far as teachers needing to be the coach not really sure what that has to do with anything. While it's easier to have a coach in the school for recruiting it would seem odd not to have the best coach in the room whether they are a teacher or a carpenter. Between youth, junior high and high school we've had one coach amongst them all that was a teacher for the last 22 years.
Never said that it needs to be a teacher/coach. I could say the sky was blue and you'd argue it...
My point is that districts have gone away from looking for the dual role. They'd rather hire someone outside the district. Being on a non-teacher can cause issues with practice and competition due to job schedules. The school days end at the same time every day. If you are a carpenter, etc there are days you have to work late, etc.
To add: If we in MN had to do all the weight descent stuff you guys do in WI, I would literally resign on the spot.
I definitely feel for you there.
Our high school coaches have to be teachers or sometimes retired teachers. We have a few assistant coaches in sports that are not teachers but otherwise everyone is a teacher.
If you want the ideal coach you want a single guy or maybe a guy without kids. Then they can be married to wrestling. LOL!
Saturday tournaments are a positive for the wrestling die hards. As a middle aged fan with no kids at home, I love them. Often translates to large brackets and tough competition. The problem is young coaches with families are not attracted to having to give up 6-7 Saturdays every winter. It also is not popular with the kids. We can rationalize it all we want, but the biggest complaint I heard from HS kids was having to wake up early and sacrifice so many Saturdays.
The track meets are really long too! I'm not a track diehard.
Quote from: Wis-Mallard on February 25, 2021, 05:24:56 PM
The track meets are really long too! I'm not a track diehard.
They are long, and seem to be brutal weather for the first few outdoor meets. Most people don't stay from the start of field vents to the 1600 relay though.
I can't believe anyone here has been to any swim meets if you are thinking wrestling is long/boring.
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 25, 2021, 02:38:15 PM
Coaches,
I beg of you to start a trend. Even if the 7/7 rule stays, you do not have to go to 7 Saturday tournaments. Your wrestlers will thank you, their families and yours will thank you. If they go to 2-3 less tournaments is that really going to change who they are at end of season. I think many might get better from an hour Saturday morning practice if needed where it can be optional and you can work individually with kids. Those are the Saturdays where you bring in your kids, etc and it is fun and relaxed and does not take up the whole day. Maybe even bring in some middle school kids to roll around and get to know you.
If you can't just eliminate those matches then add some duals or triangulars to replace tournaments on some Friday nights or weeknights!
What if 3 non-conference programs got together and just had some live wrestling on a Friday after school? Wouldnt all that live wrestling with a fun relaxed atmosphere be better and more wrestling than your kids will get sitting at a tournament all day Saturday. Pretty sure you could do this if you called it one of your competitions. Then take all the money you would have spent on refs, workers, etc and get the kids pizza and expand the brotherhood as wrestlers hang with kids from other teams.
YOU CAN DO IT DIFFERENTLY! Even without rule changes
Getting together and wrestling live with any school is called a scrimmage and can be done once during the year not sure that would fly in high school but works well in middle school actually works great!
Quote from: MNbadger on February 25, 2021, 04:32:21 PM
To add: If we in MN had to do all the weight descent stuff you guys do in WI, I would literally resign on the spot.
I definitely feel for you there.
Another really poor idea. Plus the wiaa needs to give every wrestler their own pass word so they can follow their own. You certainly dont give out the coaches to track.
Also, peinting out each weight decent for the kids is a pain.
Toss in weight room time and open gyms during summer months as part of coaching and it chews up alot of time.
One thing that really needs to be considered is the fact that teachers' jobs are increasingly demanding, stressful, and time consuming. Over the past decade, I've seen a lot of teacher-coaches of all sports stop coaching. According to several I've talked to, it was necessary just to keep their heads above water.
Quote from: littleguy301 on February 25, 2021, 11:33:29 PM
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 25, 2021, 02:38:15 PM
Coaches,
I beg of you to start a trend. Even if the 7/7 rule stays, you do not have to go to 7 Saturday tournaments. Your wrestlers will thank you, their families and yours will thank you. If they go to 2-3 less tournaments is that really going to change who they are at end of season. I think many might get better from an hour Saturday morning practice if needed where it can be optional and you can work individually with kids. Those are the Saturdays where you bring in your kids, etc and it is fun and relaxed and does not take up the whole day. Maybe even bring in some middle school kids to roll around and get to know you.
If you can't just eliminate those matches then add some duals or triangulars to replace tournaments on some Friday nights or weeknights!
What if 3 non-conference programs got together and just had some live wrestling on a Friday after school? Wouldnt all that live wrestling with a fun relaxed atmosphere be better and more wrestling than your kids will get sitting at a tournament all day Saturday. Pretty sure you could do this if you called it one of your competitions. Then take all the money you would have spent on refs, workers, etc and get the kids pizza and expand the brotherhood as wrestlers hang with kids from other teams.
YOU CAN DO IT DIFFERENTLY! Even without rule changes
Getting together and wrestling live with any school is called a scrimmage and can be done once during the year not sure that would fly in high school but works well in middle school actually works great!
Couldn't you just call it a competition? What is the WIAA definition of a competition?
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 26, 2021, 08:07:38 AM
Quote from: littleguy301 on February 25, 2021, 11:33:29 PM
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 25, 2021, 02:38:15 PM
Coaches,
I beg of you to start a trend. Even if the 7/7 rule stays, you do not have to go to 7 Saturday tournaments. Your wrestlers will thank you, their families and yours will thank you. If they go to 2-3 less tournaments is that really going to change who they are at end of season. I think many might get better from an hour Saturday morning practice if needed where it can be optional and you can work individually with kids. Those are the Saturdays where you bring in your kids, etc and it is fun and relaxed and does not take up the whole day. Maybe even bring in some middle school kids to roll around and get to know you.
If you can't just eliminate those matches then add some duals or triangulars to replace tournaments on some Friday nights or weeknights!
What if 3 non-conference programs got together and just had some live wrestling on a Friday after school? Wouldnt all that live wrestling with a fun relaxed atmosphere be better and more wrestling than your kids will get sitting at a tournament all day Saturday. Pretty sure you could do this if you called it one of your competitions. Then take all the money you would have spent on refs, workers, etc and get the kids pizza and expand the brotherhood as wrestlers hang with kids from other teams.
YOU CAN DO IT DIFFERENTLY! Even without rule changes
Getting together and wrestling live with any school is called a scrimmage and can be done once during the year not sure that would fly in high school but works well in middle school actually works great!
Couldn't you just call it a competition? What is the WIAA definition of a competition?
If no points are scored then scrimmage. Maybe it is no refs. You are allowed one of these types a year.
Quote from: Wis-Mallard on February 25, 2021, 05:24:56 PM
The track meets are really long too! I'm not a track diehard.
Yep. Had one of mine do the discus and the mile :o
I guess I just interpret the WIAA rule as you are allowed 1 scrimmage plus 7/7. But couldn't you have another scrimmage if you eliminate one tournament and count that 2nd scrimmage as an event? I wonder what they would say. Imagine wrestlers from different teams drilling with each other and live wrestling for two hours rather than 6 minutes. Why would the WIAA be against that? Wouldn't that benefit your wrestlers more than an all day tournament?
The coaches have to stay for the entire event.
Quote from: bigoil on February 25, 2021, 06:11:55 PM
Quote from: Wis-Mallard on February 25, 2021, 05:24:56 PM
The track meets are really long too! I'm not a track diehard.
They are long, and seem to be brutal weather for the first few outdoor meets. Most people don't stay from the start of field vents to the 1600 relay though.
Quote from: Wis-Mallard on February 26, 2021, 12:20:10 PM
The coaches have to stay for the entire event.
Quote from: bigoil on February 25, 2021, 06:11:55 PM
Quote from: Wis-Mallard on February 25, 2021, 05:24:56 PM
The track meets are really long too! I'm not a track diehard.
They are long, and seem to be brutal weather for the first few outdoor meets. Most people don't stay from the start of field vents to the 1600 relay though.
Understood, I was taking it from a spectator...I also stayed for the full events because despite the Pit being open, my daughter took her time taking her 3 jumps, so then finals are pushed back and then she did the same thing in the Triple. Some cold days out there next to the sand :)
Wrightstown went to a couple multi duals/dual tournaments on Friday nights that was awesome for the kids and parents.
Agreed multi duals mid week suck, we had a quad conference meet a couple of years ago and it was after 11:00 when we finished wrestling Freedom.
Quote from: MNbadger on February 25, 2021, 09:46:00 PM
I can't believe anyone here has been to any swim meets if you are thinking wrestling is long/boring.
When our wrestling team and swimming team switched one day, swimming workout was harder for us than ours to them, if you just go by physical wearout. We were puking water, and I slept with the dead that night.
Quote from: bigG on February 26, 2021, 02:36:43 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on February 25, 2021, 09:46:00 PM
I can't believe anyone here has been to any swim meets if you are thinking wrestling is long/boring.
When our wrestling team and swimming team switched one day, swimming workout was harder for us than ours to them, if you just go by physical wearout. We were puking water, and I slept with the dead that night.
If wrestling didn't have the mental aspect of losing weight, swimming is the next hardest sport. Those guys are in great shape!
Quote from: bigoil on February 26, 2021, 02:43:48 PM
Quote from: bigG on February 26, 2021, 02:36:43 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on February 25, 2021, 09:46:00 PM
I can't believe anyone here has been to any swim meets if you are thinking wrestling is long/boring.
When our wrestling team and swimming team switched one day, swimming workout was harder for us than ours to them, if you just go by physical wearout. We were puking water, and I slept with the dead that night.
If wrestling didn't have the mental aspect of losing weight, swimming is the next hardest sport. Those guys are in great shape!
We were shocked at how quickly we fatigued. If you ever play water polo for 15 minutes, you will sleep well. This was two hours of heck. I think the mental toughness of just not drowning is impressive.
This thread is interesting. I am sure this will be a very unpopular opinion.
We have just spent the past 3 months bitching how unfair it was the WIAA was limiting wrestling opportunities and now that the season is over for about a hot minute we are back to talking about limiting the number of wrestling opportunities. Yep...coaching is low pay for little personal glory. It is a time commitment that is not equally compensated by $$. If that is the problem...quit. We have noticed club wrestling will step in and fill the void. My gut tells me if the WIAA and HS look for reasons to limit opportunities for kids to wrestle parents will start to move to club wrestling.
Coaching wrestling is not unique. Every sport has athletes that need different attention. Each sport is a time commitment by the coach, each sport has parents that will crawl up the coaches backside, each sport has paperwork, grade issues, discipline issues, injuries.
The WIAA gives wrestling 14 opportunities to compete in season. 7 duels and 7 tournaments (not counting the tournament series). WIAA maximum competition allowance for other sports: Gymnastics 14 (that is a tough sport - weightlifting, watching weight, injuries), Track 20 (individuals compete in multiple events and typically minimal coaches), Hockey 20 (I wish hockey would go away...those are great wrestling recruits), Basketball 24 (I have watched basketball practice...they run all the Dang time), swimming 15 (most of us would drown after one practice), baseball/softball 26
Baseball - 26 games allowed. The season...2019 first game was April 2nd last game before the tournament series was May 25. 24 games played in 8 weeks (do the math). But of course baseball coaches don't have to deal with grades, paperwork, injuries, parents, the pay is awesome, the sport is not hard on an old guys body, there are no holidays (Easter, Mother's Day). Of those 24 games half were on a weekday starting after 4:30 pm. So Doc...your point about other sports have all day events during school hours is not factual. I don't believe school goes until 4:30 in the afternoon. (BTW...I am not a baseball coach and neither of my boys played in HS)
I know...the inappropriate term1 is all day tournaments on Saturdays. We all know every one of those tournaments could be shortened to half that time with less breaks. inappropriate term3...we saw the state tournament could be cut from 3 days to one. So it is very reasonable to believe a one day tournament could be cut in half with less hour long breaks.
My point...let's cut back wrestling opportunities for the athlete. Let's start a letter to the WIAA and have competitions only on weekdays, cut the number down to 9 like football, and let's cut weight classes down to 10. And then this forum can be bitching about low numbers in HS wrestling.
Quote from: bulldog on March 02, 2021, 08:53:19 AM
This thread is interesting. I am sure this will be a very unpopular opinion.
We have just spent the past 3 months bitching how unfair it was the WIAA was limiting wrestling opportunities and now that the season is over for about a hot minute we are back to talking about limiting the number of wrestling opportunities. Yep...coaching is low pay for little personal glory. It is a time commitment that is not equally compensated by $$. If that is the problem...quit. We have noticed club wrestling will step in and fill the void. My gut tells me if the WIAA and HS look for reasons to limit opportunities for kids to wrestle parents will start to move to club wrestling.
Coaching wrestling is not unique. Every sport has athletes that need different attention. Each sport is a time commitment by the coach, each sport has parents that will crawl up the coaches backside, each sport has paperwork, grade issues, discipline issues, injuries.
The WIAA gives wrestling 14 opportunities to compete in season. 7 duels and 7 tournaments (not counting the tournament series). WIAA maximum competition allowance for other sports: Gymnastics 14 (that is a tough sport - weightlifting, watching weight, injuries), Track 20 (individuals compete in multiple events and typically minimal coaches), Hockey 20 (I wish hockey would go away...those are great wrestling recruits), Basketball 24 (I have watched basketball practice...they run all the Dang time), swimming 15 (most of us would drown after one practice), baseball/softball 26
Baseball - 26 games allowed. The season...2019 first game was April 2nd last game before the tournament series was May 25. 24 games played in 8 weeks (do the math). But of course baseball coaches don't have to deal with grades, paperwork, injuries, parents, the pay is awesome, the sport is not hard on an old guys body, there are no holidays (Easter, Mother's Day). Of those 24 games half were on a weekday starting after 4:30 pm. So Doc...your point about other sports have all day events during school hours is not factual. I don't believe school goes until 4:30 in the afternoon. (BTW...I am not a baseball coach and neither of my boys played in HS)
I know...the inappropriate term1 is all day tournaments on Saturdays. We all know every one of those tournaments could be shortened to half that time with less breaks. inappropriate term3...we saw the state tournament could be cut from 3 days to one. So it is very reasonable to believe a one day tournament could be cut in half with less hour long breaks.
My point...let's cut back wrestling opportunities for the athlete. Let's start a letter to the WIAA and have competitions only on weekdays, cut the number down to 9 like football, and let's cut weight classes down to 10. And then this forum can be bitching about low numbers in HS wrestling.
Well said!!!!
I love Saturday tournaments. I'm with you that they could be shortened though. Youth tournaments in general have come a long way in shortening theirs.
There are a couple positive way to look at the 7/7. While Saturday's can be longer days with only having 7 nightly events you are home much earlier than another sports coach much of the time. If a basketball team has 22 games that's 15 more nights that they don't see their kids before they go to bed.
Also, it's not like the old days when only the winners are wrestling. Kids now often get 4-5 matches and all continue to wrestle throughout the day.
No one said coaching was easy and I'm not willing to give up these tournaments.
If a coach wants to recoup their money they need for the sport run a camp or something.
Quote from: bulldog on March 02, 2021, 08:53:19 AM
This thread is interesting. I am sure this will be a very unpopular opinion.
Why? Is your wife on the forum? ;)
Quote from: bulldog on March 02, 2021, 08:53:19 AM
This thread is interesting. I am sure this will be a very unpopular opinion.
We have just spent the past 3 months bitching how unfair it was the WIAA was limiting wrestling opportunities and now that the season is over for about a hot minute we are back to talking about limiting the number of wrestling opportunities. Yep...coaching is low pay for little personal glory. It is a time commitment that is not equally compensated by $$. If that is the problem...quit. We have noticed club wrestling will step in and fill the void. My gut tells me if the WIAA and HS look for reasons to limit opportunities for kids to wrestle parents will start to move to club wrestling.
Coaching wrestling is not unique. Every sport has athletes that need different attention. Each sport is a time commitment by the coach, each sport has parents that will crawl up the coaches backside, each sport has paperwork, grade issues, discipline issues, injuries.
The WIAA gives wrestling 14 opportunities to compete in season. 7 duels and 7 tournaments (not counting the tournament series). WIAA maximum competition allowance for other sports: Gymnastics 14 (that is a tough sport - weightlifting, watching weight, injuries), Track 20 (individuals compete in multiple events and typically minimal coaches), Hockey 20 (I wish hockey would go away...those are great wrestling recruits), Basketball 24 (I have watched basketball practice...they run all the Dang time), swimming 15 (most of us would drown after one practice), baseball/softball 26
Baseball - 26 games allowed. The season...2019 first game was April 2nd last game before the tournament series was May 25. 24 games played in 8 weeks (do the math). But of course baseball coaches don't have to deal with grades, paperwork, injuries, parents, the pay is awesome, the sport is not hard on an old guys body, there are no holidays (Easter, Mother's Day). Of those 24 games half were on a weekday starting after 4:30 pm. So Doc...your point about other sports have all day events during school hours is not factual. I don't believe school goes until 4:30 in the afternoon. (BTW...I am not a baseball coach and neither of my boys played in HS)
I know...the inappropriate term1 is all day tournaments on Saturdays. We all know every one of those tournaments could be shortened to half that time with less breaks. inappropriate term3...we saw the state tournament could be cut from 3 days to one. So it is very reasonable to believe a one day tournament could be cut in half with less hour long breaks.
My point...let's cut back wrestling opportunities for the athlete. Let's start a letter to the WIAA and have competitions only on weekdays, cut the number down to 9 like football, and let's cut weight classes down to 10. And then this forum can be bitching about low numbers in HS wrestling.
I know I have commented on this topic, but well said.
The big difference is that at least in my experience, the basketball team is always done earlier than we are on week nights.
Quote from: bulldog on March 02, 2021, 08:53:19 AM
This thread is interesting. I am sure this will be a very unpopular opinion.
We have just spent the past 3 months bitching how unfair it was the WIAA was limiting wrestling opportunities and now that the season is over for about a hot minute we are back to talking about limiting the number of wrestling opportunities. Yep...coaching is low pay for little personal glory. It is a time commitment that is not equally compensated by $$. If that is the problem...quit. We have noticed club wrestling will step in and fill the void. My gut tells me if the WIAA and HS look for reasons to limit opportunities for kids to wrestle parents will start to move to club wrestling.
Coaching wrestling is not unique. Every sport has athletes that need different attention. Each sport is a time commitment by the coach, each sport has parents that will crawl up the coaches backside, each sport has paperwork, grade issues, discipline issues, injuries.
The WIAA gives wrestling 14 opportunities to compete in season. 7 duels and 7 tournaments (not counting the tournament series). WIAA maximum competition allowance for other sports: Gymnastics 14 (that is a tough sport - weightlifting, watching weight, injuries), Track 20 (individuals compete in multiple events and typically minimal coaches), Hockey 20 (I wish hockey would go away...those are great wrestling recruits), Basketball 24 (I have watched basketball practice...they run all the Dang time), swimming 15 (most of us would drown after one practice), baseball/softball 26
Baseball - 26 games allowed. The season...2019 first game was April 2nd last game before the tournament series was May 25. 24 games played in 8 weeks (do the math). But of course baseball coaches don't have to deal with grades, paperwork, injuries, parents, the pay is awesome, the sport is not hard on an old guys body, there are no holidays (Easter, Mother's Day). Of those 24 games half were on a weekday starting after 4:30 pm. So Doc...your point about other sports have all day events during school hours is not factual. I don't believe school goes until 4:30 in the afternoon. (BTW...I am not a baseball coach and neither of my boys played in HS)
I know...the inappropriate term1 is all day tournaments on Saturdays. We all know every one of those tournaments could be shortened to half that time with less breaks. inappropriate term3...we saw the state tournament could be cut from 3 days to one. So it is very reasonable to believe a one day tournament could be cut in half with less hour long breaks.
My point...let's cut back wrestling opportunities for the athlete. Let's start a letter to the WIAA and have competitions only on weekdays, cut the number down to 9 like football, and let's cut weight classes down to 10. And then this forum can be bitching about low numbers in HS wrestling.
Baseball games have coaches home for dinner or shortly late. Baseball sectionals are done during the school day.
Other sports Have more events but have most weekends off and if it is an occasional weekend it is a short day.
The number of Saturdays involved and the length of the Saturdays is what makes wrestling tougher on families. Track has certainly been trending in a direction with less Saturdays but they can be similar to wrestling tournaments. Coaches now are giving up 8+ Saturdays. That is 2+ months.
I don't really want to compare sports too much because ALL HIGH SCHOOL SPORTS are hurting for coaches due to the many reasons stated plus dealing with parents.
Lots of people want to coach but the schedule just does not work. Pushing more events to Friday nights helps and imagine if we simply combined regionals and sectionals into one weekend and did it all on a Friday. Just gave coaches two more weekends with families and for fun and even more for the wrestlers and their families.
Quote from: bulldog on March 02, 2021, 08:53:19 AM
This thread is interesting. I am sure this will be a very unpopular opinion.
We have just spent the past 3 months bitching how unfair it was the WIAA was limiting wrestling opportunities and now that the season is over for about a hot minute we are back to talking about limiting the number of wrestling opportunities. Yep...coaching is low pay for little personal glory. It is a time commitment that is not equally compensated by $$. If that is the problem...quit. We have noticed club wrestling will step in and fill the void. My gut tells me if the WIAA and HS look for reasons to limit opportunities for kids to wrestle parents will start to move to club wrestling.
Coaching wrestling is not unique. Every sport has athletes that need different attention. Each sport is a time commitment by the coach, each sport has parents that will crawl up the coaches backside, each sport has paperwork, grade issues, discipline issues, injuries.
The WIAA gives wrestling 14 opportunities to compete in season. 7 duels and 7 tournaments (not counting the tournament series). WIAA maximum competition allowance for other sports: Gymnastics 14 (that is a tough sport - weightlifting, watching weight, injuries), Track 20 (individuals compete in multiple events and typically minimal coaches), Hockey 20 (I wish hockey would go away...those are great wrestling recruits), Basketball 24 (I have watched basketball practice...they run all the Dang time), swimming 15 (most of us would drown after one practice), baseball/softball 26
Baseball - 26 games allowed. The season...2019 first game was April 2nd last game before the tournament series was May 25. 24 games played in 8 weeks (do the math). But of course baseball coaches don't have to deal with grades, paperwork, injuries, parents, the pay is awesome, the sport is not hard on an old guys body, there are no holidays (Easter, Mother's Day). Of those 24 games half were on a weekday starting after 4:30 pm. So Doc...your point about other sports have all day events during school hours is not factual. I don't believe school goes until 4:30 in the afternoon. (BTW...I am not a baseball coach and neither of my boys played in HS)
I know...the inappropriate term1 is all day tournaments on Saturdays. We all know every one of those tournaments could be shortened to half that time with less breaks. inappropriate term3...we saw the state tournament could be cut from 3 days to one. So it is very reasonable to believe a one day tournament could be cut in half with less hour long breaks.
My point...let's cut back wrestling opportunities for the athlete. Let's start a letter to the WIAA and have competitions only on weekdays, cut the number down to 9 like football, and let's cut weight classes down to 10. And then this forum can be bitching about low numbers in HS wrestling.
I havent got the opinion that anyone wants to limited anything. Just noticed that there seems to be alot of opening for coaching positions.
I was just asking a question that I have noticed a few schools posting wrestling coaching positions and have heard word of mouth others are stepping down.
Just asking if a trend is starting. I will also add that coaching in other sports also have been looking for coaches so not just wrestling.
If this trend swings upward more, that will limited the wrestlers for sure. Finding balance is the big key, here.
I dont want to limit any wrestling but we could be starting a trend if it goes un noticed.
Ask any AD and they will tell you that each year it gets tougher to find coaches and tougher to find officials in ALL sports
Quote from: DocWrestling on March 02, 2021, 01:01:32 PM
Baseball games have coaches home for dinner or shortly late. Baseball sectionals are done during the school day.
Other sports Have more events but have most weekends off and if it is an occasional weekend it is a short day.
The number of Saturdays involved and the length of the Saturdays is what makes wrestling tougher on families. Track has certainly been trending in a direction with less Saturdays but they can be similar to wrestling tournaments. Coaches now are giving up 8+ Saturdays. That is 2+ months.
I don't really want to compare sports too much because ALL HIGH SCHOOL SPORTS are hurting for coaches due to the many reasons stated plus dealing with parents.
Lots of people want to coach but the schedule just does not work. Pushing more events to Friday nights helps and imagine if we simply combined regional and sectionals into one weekend and did it all on a Friday. Just gave coaches two more weekends with families and for fun and even more for the wrestlers and their families.
Doc...I think we usually agree but I am kind of at odds with you on some of your points.
Okay...I am all for triples and quads on a Friday night. As long as they start and end at a decent time. The tournaments that are an hour drive and the boys not getting home until 1:00 in the morning are horsecrap. And I can speak to a tournament that the bus was rolling in at that time. Then the weekend is shot anyway...the kid getting home at 1:00 in the morning is sleeping in until noon. I agree...getting up at 5:30 in a Saturday morning to go sit in a gym until 9:00 at night is goofy. That is on the AD and coaches from a scheduling standpoint. There is no WIAA rule that says your weekday matches have to start at 7:00 at night. Start scheduling them at 4:30 see how that goes.
But to run a 12-16 person tournament on a Friday night is only catering to the coaches who want weekends off. Tournaments can cut down on time. If coaches voice their displeasure to tournament organizers they will change.
Oh...and the comment about "dealing with parents"...think about where the teams would be without those parents. These threads are getting a little old bitching that the parents are the problem. I am betting the parents are loved when it comes time for fundraisers, to work concessions and to work youth events. Those painful parents were on the mat with that kid at 5 and got him/her to the point were they were competitive when they walked into your room. So yeah...parents are awful.
And sectionals and regionals on one weekend on a Friday? Where are you going to have it? At a school? During school hours? How is that going to work out? This year with less teams Regionals starting at 10:00 some were not wrapping up until 4:00 in the afternoon...maybe later. There is going to have to be a major shift in thinking before a one day regional/sectional is going to happen.
Good luck with that campaign.
Friday night meets with a big travel.......maybe look at staying a night. Our team likes that and have some team and parent bonding.
We do a fund raiser for that and the kids like it.
All other sports have school days for events let's do that for wrestling. Look at spring sports lots of days out of school. Sure state is like that and during school the school has that one and the kids watch it and actually like that.
Start meets at 4 like we just did for this past season. We got in 3 duals and gym was all cleaned up and at home by 9 with 3 to 4 matches per kid. Worked well.
Alot can be done to make a high school season way better and more fun but with the restrictions of 7 and 7 we cannt do it at times.
With the amount of school other sports miss I don't see any AD balking at letting kids out early or for the entire Friday two days in a season.
Quote from: DocWrestling on March 02, 2021, 09:59:43 PM
With the amount of school other sports miss I don't see any AD balking at letting kids out early or for the entire Friday two days in a season.
I agree this is probably true. The issue from what I've heard generally is it's hard to get the facility any earlier as it's used all day.
Quote from: bulldog on March 02, 2021, 08:53:19 AM
This thread is interesting. I am sure this will be a very unpopular opinion.
We have just spent the past 3 months bitching how unfair it was the WIAA was limiting wrestling opportunities and now that the season is over for about a hot minute we are back to talking about limiting the number of wrestling opportunities. Yep...coaching is low pay for little personal glory. It is a time commitment that is not equally compensated by $$. If that is the problem...quit. We have noticed club wrestling will step in and fill the void. My gut tells me if the WIAA and HS look for reasons to limit opportunities for kids to wrestle parents will start to move to club wrestling.
Coaching wrestling is not unique. Every sport has athletes that need different attention. Each sport is a time commitment by the coach, each sport has parents that will crawl up the coaches backside, each sport has paperwork, grade issues, discipline issues, injuries.
The WIAA gives wrestling 14 opportunities to compete in season. 7 duels and 7 tournaments (not counting the tournament series). WIAA maximum competition allowance for other sports: Gymnastics 14 (that is a tough sport - weightlifting, watching weight, injuries), Track 20 (individuals compete in multiple events and typically minimal coaches), Hockey 20 (I wish hockey would go away...those are great wrestling recruits), Basketball 24 (I have watched basketball practice...they run all the Dang time), swimming 15 (most of us would drown after one practice), baseball/softball 26
Baseball - 26 games allowed. The season...2019 first game was April 2nd last game before the tournament series was May 25. 24 games played in 8 weeks (do the math). But of course baseball coaches don't have to deal with grades, paperwork, injuries, parents, the pay is awesome, the sport is not hard on an old guys body, there are no holidays (Easter, Mother's Day). Of those 24 games half were on a weekday starting after 4:30 pm. So Doc...your point about other sports have all day events during school hours is not factual. I don't believe school goes until 4:30 in the afternoon. (BTW...I am not a baseball coach and neither of my boys played in HS)
I know...the inappropriate term1 is all day tournaments on Saturdays. We all know every one of those tournaments could be shortened to half that time with less breaks. inappropriate term3...we saw the state tournament could be cut from 3 days to one. So it is very reasonable to believe a one day tournament could be cut in half with less hour long breaks.
My point...let's cut back wrestling opportunities for the athlete. Let's start a letter to the WIAA and have competitions only on weekdays, cut the number down to 9 like football, and let's cut weight classes down to 10. And then this forum can be bitching about low numbers in HS wrestling.
Great post!!
Coaching is a calling and a gift.
There are so many things that could be done to change long Saturday tournaments.
1. Digital weigh ins at home school, this allows time to eat & drink and recover on the buss. MN has went to that this year and its awesome.
2. Shorten the 45 min gap between matches to 30 min.
3. Eliminate the 1 hour break before the finals
4. Go to a couple 8 man bracket (team tournaments) in and out by 1pm
>I understand not every team has a robust coaching staff, but for those that do rotate your staff so coaches can take a few weekends off.
>MN runs with 16 events or weigh ins and the season is two weeks shorter, I would rather get in more events and shorten the season.
>Take the holiday week off like they do in Iowa, including practice.
Wisconsin HS wrestling is way overdue for some fun new kid/coach friendly changes that improve everyones experience within the sport. What is hurting Wisconsin wrestling is the amount of WIAA mandates and unnecessary rules and regulations that have been allowed to happen. Take back the sport from the WIAA and run it right. So many of the complaints can be fixed if everyone would get on the same page and not always fight for there individual team.
Love the 30 minute thing. Sick of waiting around for this or that wrestleback. Let's get on with it.
The question is "who are the changes for?".
If they are for the athlete because the athletes want them and it is better for them...great. I have heard kids don't like duel meets because it gets to be a late night, they still have school responsibilities for Friday so many times they have to come home after a meet and do school work at 10:00 at night and a duel is one match...sometimes a forfeit. it is frustrating to prepare all day mentally for a match while in school to come out for one or no matches. Whereas weekend tournaments their day is focused on competition and they are typically assured of multiple matches in a day. They have all day Sunday to recover and work on school work
Sure they would like to do other things on the weekend, what teenager wouldn't? But I don't believe they hate weekend events. Most wrestlers grew up in a gym on Saturdays and Sundays from January through March almost every weekend from age 5 until they hit at least middle school if not high school. So for them it really is kind of a way of life. Parents have been doing it with them so it is kind of ingrained in them as well.
What (I believe) wrestlers hate about weekend tournaments it the time. They grew up going to youth tournaments that ran them 3-4 round robin matches. The good tournaments got them in and got them out. The bad tournaments they didn't go back to. But when HS hits they get having to make weight on Thursday AND on Saturday...that is tough. Tournaments become a major travel. Teams loading up at 5:30 to go 2 hours away (when there are events much closer). They get to the tournament weigh in and sit for 2 hours (most youth events do the same thing). But then it is dragged out until 6:00-7:00 at night and then drive home 2 hours so they are not getting home until 9:00 at night (maybe later)
I will wager that is tournaments on the weekend were get there by 7:00 start wrestling by 9:00 and wrap up by 2:00 there would be minimal complaints from the athletes regarding weekend events. It could be team round robin events. Get them 3-4 matches on a Saturday and call it a day.
And pulling kids out of school day for athletics never really sits well with me. I always thought the student portion came first in the term "student athlete". The student still has school responsibility and pulling them out of classes to go to a competition seems to put the athlete before the student.
Or are the changes for the coaches? Then I don't know...yep, it is a commitment. But I do believe the sport is for the athletes first...
Wrestling wastes a ton of time!
1) Wrestle duals on two mats. One with varsity matches and one with JV/exhibition. Less time and more energy in the gym with two matches going on and more people in stands at the same time. Start duals at 6pm promptly
2) For larger tournaments create two brackets. The first round is often a waste of time wrestling the top seed against the bottom seed. Divide the wrestlers in half and have a gold bracket and a silver bracket. Everyone will be happier.
3) 30 minute minimum time
4) No breaks- Even the officials I speak with would rather just get done earlier. Just hire one more ref than mats used.
5) Weighins and pre-bracketing- I like the idea of weigh-ins prior to bus ride. Show up, 15 minute warm-up, wrestle
6) Have more mats!
Missing a whole day of school is easier than a baseball player or track athlete missing the same last two classes of the day for 24 baseball games in a season. Heck our teams miss the last class for home games.
Quote from: DocWrestling on March 03, 2021, 09:10:49 AM
Wrestling wastes a ton of time!
1) Wrestle duals on two mats. One with varsity matches and one with JV/exhibition. Less time and more energy in the gym with two matches going on and more people in stands at the same time. Start duals at 6pm promptly
2) For larger tournaments create two brackets. The first round is often a waste of time wrestling the top seed against the bottom seed. Divide the wrestlers in half and have a gold bracket and a silver bracket. Everyone will be happier.
3) 30 minute minimum time
4) No breaks- Even the officials I speak with would rather just get done earlier. Just hire one more ref than mats used.
5) Weighins and pre-bracketing- I like the idea of weigh-ins prior to bus ride. Show up, 15 minute warm-up, wrestle
6) Have more mats!
Missing a whole day of school is easier than a baseball player or track athlete missing the same last two classes of the day for 24 baseball games in a season. Heck our teams miss the last class for home games.
This topic must be about that cancel culture stuff I keep hearing about on FOX NEWS
1. 20 to 30 minutes between matches
2. Weigh in at school before leaving.
3. Cut down breaks in between rounds, everyone needs a break and mat cleaning.
4. Cut the 7 and 7 so you can have multi duals on a week night and that frees ups more open dates.
5. If the school has room, I like the 2 mat and 3 ref thing.
6. Get rid of the decent plan but keep the safe weight plan.
4a.......having a set number of weigh ins and a match limit before the state series. Helps many situations over all. Example for a kid cutting weight he does cut weight but with multi meets they may get 3 to 4 matches instead of 1 or a ff. Also as a coach you can build in weekends offs or weekdays off depending on the needs of your team. Example again......you schedule 3 quads and 1 tournament before Christmas and you have a possible 15 to 17 matches in and that takes 3 nights and 1 Saturday so in the first 6 weeks formtye season that is 4 days of competition out of 42 days which is very doable. With our current situation to get those amount of matches it is 3 single duals and 3 tournaments to get around the same. Cutting 2 days off the schedule.
4b. As a team you can build in time off for training, lifting and maybe some game nights for practice. Maybe even the week off over Christmas.
I like the idea of being flexible with the schedule on doing something to get matches and having time off.
For all that are complaining about the 45 minute rule, There's really only one place that can change that since WIAA doesn't go off on it's own and it's the NFHS.
Therefore you should be a member of the NFHS, and contact or become and area Rep.
However, based on the commuication I've had in previous years with my Reps, this has been brought up time and time again. NFHS says that it's going off of medical advice (I'm not sure from whom) and they aren't going to change it.
As for all the other ideas, well... some are good for coaches, some are good for some wreslters, and some are good for others. It's pretty tough to find a happy place for everyone on the team from brand-new Senior football player filling in your 182lb slot. The 106lb freshman who has been doing 75 matches a year for five years and now in high school is barely hanging on to being eligible because of grades. The new assistant coach that has a pregnant wife and two kids under four years old.
Generally, less of a time committment allows for more participants and fewer conflicts for coaches and families. It also might mean less aquisition of skills during said season. If we look at the history of wrestling in this state and others in the midwest, participation is down. In WI we are at fewer than 1/2 of the high school wresters that we had through about three decades. Lots of reasons for that which has been discussed, but time commitment is always high on the list. I didn't notice any "burn out" this year or "I gotta quit because I need to work". Perhaps why was because we had fewer events, and fewer weekends, which allowed kids to stay fresh, or stay on the team (or not have an extra excuse that is the final straw).
I guess I'd rather see more kids come out and stay out, more coaches being able and willing to be involved, than to keep seeing numbers, and programs, continue to dwindle.
Gotta say that MN's 16 event/32 match set up this year has gotten really positive reviews. Not too much, not too little, and coaches have the flexibilty to schedule events that fit their team's needs. Something to be said for that.
EVERY sport has trended toward more volume and intensity of competitions and year round training and it keeps getting into younger and younger ages.
I believe this has created better and more skilled athletes.
I believe this has created a much wider gap between the best athletes and the average athletes.
I believe this has reduced the number of participants in all sports and younger and younger ages.
I often think of youth wrestling tournaments and their evolution.
The 80's had fewer and smaller tournaments. 4 man brackets (not round Robin) so you got two matches. You registered and were called to the bullpen. You won a ribbon. Only state tournament or national tournaments were in freestyle and greco.
Look what it is now from volume or tournaments and tournaments formats, the number of "national" tournaments, trackwrestling and profiles, awards, wrestling clubs, etc.
The problem in all sports is that the system to create the best athlete does not always mesh with the system to have the best team/program, and does not mesh with the system that might be in the best interest of the sport. No system works ideally for both the year round committed athlete doing his favorite sport and the seasonal athlete that is just competing for fun.
"Gotta say that MN's 16 event/32 match set up this year has gotten really positive reviews. Not too much, not too little, and coaches have the flexibility to schedule events that fit their team's needs. Something to be said for that."
This was just for this year as an accommodation for COVID, just so you know. Our best system was 18/36
There you go Doc...I knew we were not that far off. I agree...wrestling tournaments and even duals could cut time. The idea of at school weigh-in is awesome...but each school would have to get a certified ref at the school ahead of time. That would be an obstacle. But brackets can basically be done ahead of time. We ran pre-register youth tournaments for years and weighed the kids the day of to make sure they hit the weight class they said they were. If they were off the didn't wrestle (pissed off parent but it was on them a bit)
The boys loved practice over Christmas...they seemed to prefer tougher ones. They said they didn't have to worry about weight over break so they could 100% focus on wrestling and fine tuning. But my boys maybe were odd...they hated "game night" said they were in the sport to wrestle...not to play games. They thought the games were good to distract k-2 youth practice and keep them interested but by HS they knew why they were in the room. They were fine with games after practice but not when they were there to get better on the mat.
I wonder if one day there will be a split. The "elite" wrestlers and the guys that show up just to be in a winter sport. They are both in the room now and it is tough to coach to make both happy. I wonder if one day the elite will move towards club and leave the HS wrestling to the "not as committed" wrestlers
And Yep...I remember the 80s tournaments...good times...
Quote from: MNbadger on March 03, 2021, 01:10:10 PM
"Gotta say that MN's 16 event/32 match set up this year has gotten really positive reviews. Not too much, not too little, and coaches have the flexibility to schedule events that fit their team's needs. Something to be said for that."
This was just for this year as an accommodation for COVID, just so you know. Our best system was 18/36
Yep. And I would probably agree with your 2nd point. Either seems better than 7/7.
I do think all sports are heading to elite wrestlers competing as part of clubs and not on their high school teams. This already happens in hockey and soccer.
Another great day to have a tournament would be Martin Luther King Day. Lots of schools off that day and frees up the weekend prior!
Quote from: DocWrestling on March 03, 2021, 04:08:31 PM
I do think all sports are heading to elite wrestlers competing as part of clubs and not on their high school teams. This already happens in hockey and soccer.
Another great day to have a tournament would be Martin Luther King Day. Lots of schools off that day and frees up the weekend prior!
MLK Day is an interesting idea...
As much as my boys would have loved the club idea in HS I wonder what kind of mess it would be. I guess you are right with hockey and soccer. I think gymnastic has moved that way as well. And it seems boys swimming gets recruited from club more then HS teams. And I guess if it is recruiting for college I have to think wrestling gets more college coach exposure at Fargo than the WIAA state tournament.
" The idea of at school weigh-in is awesome...but each school would have to get a certified ref at the school ahead of time. That would be an obstacle. "
Why would you need a certified referee? We did one or two seasons where we weighed in in the morning of a meet. We simply needed a district administrator to witness the weigh ins. We are requiring the same this year with our weigh ins.
The morning weigh ins were the best as then wrestlers were not moping around the lunch room whining the day of the meet.
If people are worried about cheating on school weigh ins. I would guess that if a coach did so and got called out on it that coach would have no pull and I would doubt any school would ever again trust that school that was busted and the coach.
Something to think about.
I'm 100% against home weigh ins for the simple fact that when we had them in MN, and I got a couple kids who moved in from other districts that we wrestled against regularly. They both admitted that they never once stepped on a scale for a home weigh in, and yes, the sheets were signed by a coach and a school administrator.
Nope, with weigh ins, I'm only trusting side-by-side and on the same scale. Same goes for skin-checks.
Quote from: littleguy301 on March 03, 2021, 11:57:57 PM
If people are worried about cheating on school weigh ins. I would guess that if a coach did so and got called out on it that coach would have no pull and I would doubt any school would ever again truth that school that was busted and the coach.
Something to think about.
I would be against morning weigh-ins. In college we weighed in the day before. That promoted a lot more weight cutting than occurs today. Morning weigh-ins would really reward those that cut the most weight or easily starved themselves the night before. I think it would be more fair if it was just right after school. I do believe the closer you have weigh-ins to match time makes the sport much more fair and safer and encourages kids to wrestle a more natural weight. I have even supported matside weigh-ins. To me morning weigh-ins moves the weigh in time to far from match time although this is often the case with a morning weigh in and then night time finals at a tournament.
To me any honest person can do the weigh-ins. Refs are no more experts on reading a scale or doing skin checks than any administrator so could easily be done before boarding the bus for instance.
Home school weigh-ins are fine being administered by a school official if all schools agree to the format but you have to have a good amount of trust that everyone is playing fair. Without an official you have to trust the paperwork and the opposing side doesn't see the process. 126 means 126...not 126.1 for a reason. But I could see an AD being the person to oversee. I guess it would just be a matter of trusting the system.
The thing about early weigh-ins is a tough argument. We have had threads about going to mat side weigh-ins to reduce weight cutting issues. Early weigh-ins seems counter productive to that discussion.
It is interesting to read all of us. We complain about the things wrong, discouraging participation and we don't want to make weight/weigh ins better for kids.
I wrestled 5 years in college with home weigh ins after practice, the night before the meet. I never once saw our coach cheat on a weigh in. What is interesting is that he had a reputation as a cheater(maybe because he won?).
I never once cheated as a coach and I don't believe my colleagues from other schools did either.
The other part of this that is silly. We have gone to trackwrestling for all of this. We have to have at least half of our weigh ins after a certain date to qualify for your lowest weight for sections. I can put any weight I want for every kid into the computer, literally cheating on every weigh in before or after that date. What do you want to do about that?
"Weight cutting issues" The only "weight cutting issues" are ones of our own making.
WE are obsessing about it(again wondering why we can't "sell" wrestling to kids and parents).
Wrestlers want to win.
Their coach wants them to win.
Their brother wants them to win.
Their sister wants them to win.
Their bf/gf wants them to win.
If they cut the wrong way or too much they don't win.
This has always been a solution looking for a problem.
It is especially funny when many people on here are fiercely in the camp of "personal responsibility".
I think it is good that we do a fat test (even though they are pretty inaccurate). After the fat test and you have a minimum weight you should be ok for that weight, period. No number of days, no descent plan. You could be there the last day of competition. If we have growth allowances, so be it. If the growth allowance is what gets you there who cares?
Quote from: bulldog on March 04, 2021, 07:51:08 AM
Home school weigh-ins are fine being administered by a school official if all schools agree to the format but you have to have a good amount of trust that everyone is playing fair. Without an official you have to trust the paperwork and the opposing side doesn't see the process. 126 means 126...not 126.1 for a reason. But I could see an AD being the person to oversee. I guess it would just be a matter of trusting the system.
The thing about early weigh-ins is a tough argument. We have had threads about going to mat side weigh-ins to reduce weight cutting issues. Early weigh-ins seems counter productive to that discussion.
Quote from: Handles II on March 04, 2021, 07:38:23 AM
I'm 100% against home weigh ins for the simple fact that when we had them in MN, and I got a couple kids who moved in from other districts that we wrestled against regularly. They both admitted that they never once stepped on a scale for a home weigh in, and yes, the sheets were signed by a coach and a school administrator.
Nope, with weigh ins, I'm only trusting side-by-side and on the same scale. Same goes for skin-checks.
Put the read out eye level on wall, video the kid getting on the scale and showing the weight. Singlets must be woren now any ways. If it saves time but now the kids might have 3 hour weigh in times so..............
Quote from: MNbadger on March 04, 2021, 08:06:12 AM
"Weight cutting issues" The only "weight cutting issues" are ones of our own making.
WE are obsessing about it(again wondering why we can't "sell" wrestling to kids and parents).
Wrestlers want to win.
Their coach wants them to win.
Their brother wants them to win.
Their sister wants them to win.
Their bf/gf wants them to win.
If they cut the wrong way or too much they don't win.
This has always been a solution looking for a problem.
It is especially funny when many people on here are fiercely in the camp of "personal responsibility".
I think it is good that we do a fat test (even though they are pretty inaccurate). After the fat test and you have a minimum weight you should be ok for that weight, period. No number of days, no descent plan. You could be there the last day of competition. If we have growth allowances, so be it. If the growth allowance is what gets you there who cares? Quote from: bulldog on March 04, 2021, 07:51:08 AM
Home school weigh-ins are fine being administered by a school official if all schools agree to the format but you have to have a good amount of trust that everyone is playing fair. Without an official you have to trust the paperwork and the opposing side doesn't see the process. 126 means 126...not 126.1 for a reason. But I could see an AD being the person to oversee. I guess it would just be a matter of trusting the system.
The thing about early weigh-ins is a tough argument. We have had threads about going to mat side weigh-ins to reduce weight cutting issues. Early weigh-ins seems counter productive to that discussion.
I agree with you mnbadger.
I want to say safe weight for the lowest weigh you can go. No decent plan!
If weighing in at home makes meets go faster I think we want to look at doing it.
You have trouble finding coaches.....
NOW you want to video the weigh ins?!?!?!?!?!
Quote from: littleguy301 on March 04, 2021, 08:09:06 AM
Quote from: Handles II on March 04, 2021, 07:38:23 AM
I'm 100% against home weigh ins for the simple fact that when we had them in MN, and I got a couple kids who moved in from other districts that we wrestled against regularly. They both admitted that they never once stepped on a scale for a home weigh in, and yes, the sheets were signed by a coach and a school administrator.
Nope, with weigh ins, I'm only trusting side-by-side and on the same scale. Same goes for skin-checks.
Put the read out eye level on wall, video the kid getting on the scale and showing the weight. Singlets must be woren now any ways. If it saves time but now the kids might have 3 hour weigh in times so..............
Quote from: MNbadger on March 04, 2021, 08:30:09 AM
You have trouble finding coaches.....
NOW you want to video the weigh ins?!?!?!?!?!Quote from: littleguy301 on March 04, 2021, 08:09:06 AM
Quote from: Handles II on March 04, 2021, 07:38:23 AM
I'm 100% against home weigh ins for the simple fact that when we had them in MN, and I got a couple kids who moved in from other districts that we wrestled against regularly. They both admitted that they never once stepped on a scale for a home weigh in, and yes, the sheets were signed by a coach and a school administrator.
Nope, with weigh ins, I'm only trusting side-by-side and on the same scale. Same goes for skin-checks.
Put the read out eye level on wall, video the kid getting on the scale and showing the weight. Singlets must be woren now any ways. If it saves time but now the kids might have 3 hour weigh in times so..............
Boy...that post was helpful.... ::) ::)
You want things to change...but you don't want to try and do things differently?? At least he is offering suggestions. Sheesh...
Quote from: MNbadger on March 04, 2021, 08:06:12 AM
"Weight cutting issues" The only "weight cutting issues" are ones of our own making.
WE are obsessing about it(again wondering why we can't "sell" wrestling to kids and parents).
Wrestlers want to win.
Their coach wants them to win.
Their brother wants them to win.
Their sister wants them to win.
Their bf/gf wants them to win.
If they cut the wrong way or too much they don't win.
This has always been a solution looking for a problem.
It is especially funny when many people on here are fiercely in the camp of "personal responsibility".
I think it is good that we do a fat test (even though they are pretty inaccurate). After the fat test and you have a minimum weight you should be ok for that weight, period. No number of days, no descent plan. You could be there the last day of competition. If we have growth allowances, so be it. If the growth allowance is what gets you there who cares? Quote from: bulldog on March 04, 2021, 07:51:08 AM
Home school weigh-ins are fine being administered by a school official if all schools agree to the format but you have to have a good amount of trust that everyone is playing fair. Without an official you have to trust the paperwork and the opposing side doesn't see the process. 126 means 126...not 126.1 for a reason. But I could see an AD being the person to oversee. I guess it would just be a matter of trusting the system.
The thing about early weigh-ins is a tough argument. We have had threads about going to mat side weigh-ins to reduce weight cutting issues. Early weigh-ins seems counter productive to that discussion.
Call it whatever you want. There is a reason there are skinfold tests and guidelines regarding how much weight can be lost each week. I will call in "weight reducing practices" if that PC term makes you feel better. But...if weight loss was not a concern or a real issue then why has there been so much chatter over the years regarding mat side weigh ins? There are kids that would lose more weight than is healthy for them if not watched. And there are coaches and parents who would allow it (even encourage it). And there still are. There are guys going down 1-2 weight classes lower than they should. Put an average wrestler on a scale in June and put them on the scale in the middle of football season. Then check their skinfold at the beginning of the season. I will bet 7 out of 10 would not skinfold the same in June as they did in September or as they do in November.
And any 17 year old that is losing weight unless they are obese is losing weight to meet a goal.
The hang up to the term "cutting weight" is unfounded. The term cutting weight simply is the practice of weight loss prior to a sporting competition frequently in order to qualify for a lower weight class. So by definition...any drop in weight to qualify for a weight class is "cutting".
And I don't think anyone was obsessing with it. My comment about 126 vs 126.1 is based solely on sticking to the rules and the sport being trasparent as possible. Weight reducing practices are part of the sport...not sure why we would avoid that part of the discussion. Same as weigh in and specific weight classes are part of the sport. Obsessing? Heck the current set-up of the entire sport is based on weight. It is like one of the primary components of the sport.
When I use the term obsessing is that we keep trying to control something that does n't need it.
What a kid weighs in football season proves nothing. At the beginning of wrestling season wrestlers are skin folded with an MD. They are certified to seven percent, accepted as healthy.
How could a wrestler go down 1 or 2 weight classes "too low" as you claim?!?!
I have zero problems with the term "cutting weight" so I have no idea what your PC comment even means.....