Poll
Question:
Local tournaments- Bracket by Birth Year or by Grade?
Option 1: Birth Year
votes: 13
Option 2: Grade
votes: 12
What do you prefer?
I personally hate all sports that divide up kids by birth year. It splits kids in the same grade especially those that use January 1st as cutoff and birth year.
High school goes by grade.
What is positive of birth year? It keeps things level for the couple of kids that got held back for their grade?
What are positives of by grade?
1) Keeps kids in the same grade together and when they get to be freshman nobody is going to care about their birth year
2) In wrestling it keeps all divisions to two grades. With birth year we have 3rd graders wrestling first graders and we have 3rd graders wrestling 5th graders. How does this make sense? it is not good for wrestling.
See this to much and I think it is not a good thing for the younger kids as it turns them off. Especially the heavier ones that end up having to wrestle older kids.
2008-2009- 3rd graders to 5th graders
2006-2007- 5th graders to 7th graders
A 5th grader born in December wrestles against 7th graders
A 5th grader born in January wrestles against 3rd graders
That is crazy in my opinion and makes no sense and is worse than protecting against the occasional kid held back. Is it really helping the real young kids and is it really helping the older kids in terms of promoting participation and development. ESPECIALLY at local youth club tournaments.
We went by Birth year following WWF State.
High School is grade.
WWF is birth year.
Youth fundraisers are both.
Our youth club duals try to keep it within a grade or a birth year.
Either or
some say Toe may toe some say Ta ma toe
After coaching at all levels for more than 20 years I feel that when the athletes are younger, the birth year is more important as they change so much. I have had one son wrestle and graduated and now have my later in life son who is still in the third grade. I did not have him wrestle in pre K or K. He started in first grade as I thought that was early enough. He has struggled a little and this is what I wanted. He is now in third grade and has a June birthday. He is about 64 pounds and has won some tournaments and is very hungry to improve. This past weekend he wrestled in Osceola and had a nice 5 man bracket. The thing is that two of the kids were 4th graders and that is fine, but you could really see the difference in maturation. He lost to one Osceola wrestler 5-1 and I feel it was his best match of the year. He and I both were happy with his effort and performance. Beyond the fact that these are the matches that they grow from better, You could really see the difference in the physical make up of the boys. I do not know what the right answer is, but that is my two cents worth. I guess what ever keeps the kids interested and numbers up is what I like to see. I have been out of coaching since he was born and am seeing the numbers come back a little I think! Good luck to all this week in Madison. Wishing every athlete a safe and fun tournament.
I think youth tournaments are better by grade. 7-8, 5-6, 3-4, 2nd and under. Many tournaments run birth year groups in different gyms. Some run morning and afternoon sessions. Separating classmates into different areas or sessions by birth year takes some of the "fun" out of it for kids. In such of demanding sport, the "fun" factor cannot be underestimated or you will lose kids.
The problem is youth state is by birth year. So the competitive kids (or their parents) want to know how they stack up against the state qualifier field.
Quote from: Numbers on February 18, 2019, 07:09:37 PM
The problem is youth state is by birth year. So the competitive kids (or their parents) want to know how they stack up against the state qualifier field.
To me this is the only reason to do birth year but then we are catering to the top 5% of wrestlers with a system that does not benefit the other majority of wrestlers.
Nothing prevents a wrestler that is very good from wresting up a grade division if they want the challenge. If they are really out scouting wrestlers then that is even a worse look for youth wrestling.
Maybe I am missing something. If you want your kid to wrestle kids his own age and development, you need to have birth year. I am an educator myself and ages very quite a bit in each grade. Birth year is birth year period.
Quote from: Formercoach1 on March 13, 2019, 02:24:12 PM
Maybe I am missing something. If you want your kid to wrestle kids his own age and development, you need to have birth year. I am an educator myself and ages very quite a bit in each grade. Birth year is birth year period.
Birth year is a long time between start of one year and end of second year. Big differences even between January and December birth dates. Not going to change that with any system.
Does it not seem strange that...
one 3rd grader on your team wrestles against 1st graders and the other 3rd grader has to wrestle against 5th graders?
How do I explain that to a parent? Their experience is all the same since they all started in 2nd grade so they have had the same "years of wrestling" or number of practices.
Same thing happens with 5th graders wrestling 3rd graders or 7th graders based on a couple months different in their age.
We generally go to the best run tournaments if possible no matter which way they go. However, it is hard on a December third grader that has to wrestle January 5th graders or same for 1st and 3rd and 5th and 7th no doubt.
Some parents pick and choose based on when their child was born. It does take some explaining to parents that especially at the early age there will usually be some lumps taken in the birth year tournaments if there kids are really on the young end. If they can survive that and understand it they will usually be with you for the long haul but most older first graders don't like wrestling 3rd graders.
Quote from: DocWrestling on March 13, 2019, 03:33:26 PM
Quote from: Formercoach1 on March 13, 2019, 02:24:12 PM
Maybe I am missing something. If you want your kid to wrestle kids his own age and development, you need to have birth year. I am an educator myself and ages very quite a bit in each grade. Birth year is birth year period.
Birth year is a long time between start of one year and end of second year. Big differences even between January and December birth dates. Not going to change that with any system.
Does it not seem strange that...
one 3rd grader on your team wrestles against 1st graders and the other 3rd grader has to wrestle against 5th graders?
How do I explain that to a parent? Their experience is all the same since they all started in 2nd grade so they have had the same "years of wrestling" or number of practices.
Same thing happens with 5th graders wrestling 3rd graders or 7th graders based on a couple months different in their age.
This is correct and it can be an even greater difference if you go by GRADE level, because you can have athletes that have been held back by parents or did not get promoted. Tournaments by grade will have a bigger difference in age than birth year. Those parents that held their child back probably do not like birth year tournaments.
Yes, grade level tournaments don't account for kids held back one or even two (extreme) years. I like age level tournaments better as it ignores grade. Some grade level tournaments have started to restrictions on the age of a kid in the grade to protect against kids being held back having a huge advantage.
In Freestyle and Greco, it is all age level divisions.
Quote from: Formercoach1 on March 15, 2019, 02:37:36 PM
Quote from: DocWrestling on March 13, 2019, 03:33:26 PM
Quote from: Formercoach1 on March 13, 2019, 02:24:12 PM
Maybe I am missing something. If you want your kid to wrestle kids his own age and development, you need to have birth year. I am an educator myself and ages very quite a bit in each grade. Birth year is birth year period.
Birth year is a long time between start of one year and end of second year. Big differences even between January and December birth dates. Not going to change that with any system.
Does it not seem strange that...
one 3rd grader on your team wrestles against 1st graders and the other 3rd grader has to wrestle against 5th graders?
How do I explain that to a parent? Their experience is all the same since they all started in 2nd grade so they have had the same "years of wrestling" or number of practices.
Same thing happens with 5th graders wrestling 3rd graders or 7th graders based on a couple months different in their age.
This is correct and it can be an even greater difference if you go by GRADE level, because you can have athletes that have been held back by parents or did not get promoted. Tournaments by grade will have a bigger difference in age than birth year. Those parents that held their child back probably do not like birth year tournaments.
Finally someone that made sense to me. My son is a sophomore, turns 16 in July, and could be a freshman. We did not think about how sports and age might affect him has he went through school. As he progressed through school and wrestling we discovered in his grade, some kids were almost 2 years older. Age is the biggest factor in maturity, strength, and size, not what grade a child is in. 3rd grader wrestling a 5th grader but they are the same age or the reverse of a 1st grader vs a 3rd grader, same age. My son will be 17 when he graduates, he will wrestle 19 year olds.
Now your concern may be more one of experience level. Your youth club does not start kids till they are in 1st grade, so a 3rd grader vs a 1st grader has more experience even though they are only a year apart in age. To me this is the only argument against year level wrestling.
As I viewed this weekend youth qualifiers I see kids that are only a year behind my son in age but 2 years behind in grade. Who has the advantage now?
The World created the age difference, Novice, Schoolboy, Cadet, Juniors, each a 2 year age difference trying to account for maturity as best they can.
Quote from: Formercoach1 on March 15, 2019, 02:37:36 PM
Quote from: DocWrestling on March 13, 2019, 03:33:26 PM
Quote from: Formercoach1 on March 13, 2019, 02:24:12 PM
Maybe I am missing something. If you want your kid to wrestle kids his own age and development, you need to have birth year. I am an educator myself and ages very quite a bit in each grade. Birth year is birth year period.
Birth year is a long time between start of one year and end of second year. Big differences even between January and December birth dates. Not going to change that with any system.
Does it not seem strange that...
one 3rd grader on your team wrestles against 1st graders and the other 3rd grader has to wrestle against 5th graders?
How do I explain that to a parent? Their experience is all the same since they all started in 2nd grade so they have had the same "years of wrestling" or number of practices.
Same thing happens with 5th graders wrestling 3rd graders or 7th graders based on a couple months different in their age.
This is correct and it can be an even greater difference if you go by GRADE level, because you can have athletes that have been held back by parents or did not get promoted. Tournaments by grade will have a bigger difference in age than birth year. Those parents that held their child back probably do not like birth year tournaments.
[/quote
Most often, kids who start school late or get held back need a year to mature. I don't see a consistent correlation between being an older kid in the grade and being a top athlete, because maturity rates can differ greatly. Our son wasn't held back, but had a birthday at the end of December, which often put him against kids 2 grades higher for freestyle. He didn't mature early, so wrestling against other kids in his grade wasn't a cakewalk. He had to rely on good technique and work extra hard to catch up physically.
I am still looking for all these kids that got held back? Where are they?
Yes some kids with summer birthdays delay entry to the following year but that makes them only a few months older.
If you are adamant that age matters and I am not going to disagree on that one because it does, then why do we use January 1st. That makes no sense.
Use September 1st as cutoff since that is what schools use and then you would have rules based on birth dates but in reality it keeps 99% of kids in the same grade together.
September 1st makes a heck of a lot more sense than January 1st since it would be congruent with schools
Quote from: DocWrestling on March 18, 2019, 09:32:38 AM
I am still looking for all these kids that got held back? Where are they?
Yes some kids with summer birthdays delay entry to the following year but that makes them only a few months older.
If you are adamant that age matters and I am not going to disagree on that one because it does, then why do we use January 1st. That makes no sense.
Use September 1st as cutoff since that is what schools use and then you would have rules based on birth dates but in reality it keeps 99% of kids in the same grade together.
September 1st makes a heck of a lot more sense than January 1st since it would be congruent with schools
That would be a great question for the WWF and local tournaments in WI. The argument on the National level is that not all schools start in September across the country. Heck, even differences on school starts in WI as well actually.
Quote from: DocWrestling on March 18, 2019, 09:32:38 AM
I am still looking for all these kids that got held back? Where are they?
Yes some kids with summer birthdays delay entry to the following year but that makes them only a few months older.
If you are adamant that age matters and I am not going to disagree on that one because it does, then why do we use January 1st. That makes no sense.
Use September 1st as cutoff since that is what schools use and then you would have rules based on birth dates but in reality it keeps 99% of kids in the same grade together.
September 1st makes a heck of a lot more sense than January 1st since it would be congruent with schools
Few students are required by schools to repeat a grade. There are more kids held back by parents intent on giving them a year to mature before tackling academics. If a child does repeat a grade level, it's most often 4K or Kindergarten, due to immaturity.
I agree it happens but 99% of those kids are summer birthdays so we really are only talking about a month or two difference. They simply went from youngest in one grade to oldest in another grade.
If we are truly worried about them then make the cutoff at September 1st rather than January 1st.
If we truly had duals and team events it would be worse with splitting grades in half but for the most part it is an individual sport. But it seems like all the youth dual tournaments go by grade?
Quote from: DocWrestling on March 19, 2019, 08:03:40 AM
I agree it happens but 99% of those kids are summer birthdays so we really are only talking about a month or two difference. They simply went from youngest in one grade to oldest in another grade.
If we are truly worried about them then make the cutoff at September 1st rather than January 1st.
If we truly had duals and team events it would be worse with splitting grades in half but for the most part it is an individual sport. But it seems like all the youth dual tournaments go by grade?
Another consideration: If you are a kid who was held back in school, do you want to compete in a sport that singles you out in front of your peers because of that? Sounds like a great way to disenfranchise some kids.
We actually aren't worried about disenfranchising kids or we wouldn't run tournaments the way we continue to year after year, no changes, despite seeing HUGE drops in participation. Therefore grade or birth year doesn't matter.
Quote from: Handles II on March 19, 2019, 08:42:27 AM
We actually aren't worried about disenfranchising kids or we wouldn't run tournaments the way we continue to year after year, no changes, despite seeing HUGE drops in participation. Therefore grade or birth year doesn't matter.
So, we agree that multiple changes need to be made, if we wish to stop the decline in participants... and yes, it does appear that we'd rather whine about that problem, instead of making changes that address it. In my opinion, we are so focused on the top kids that we collectively devalue the rest.
Quote from: imnofish on March 19, 2019, 10:36:31 AM
Quote from: Handles II on March 19, 2019, 08:42:27 AM
We actually aren't worried about disenfranchising kids or we wouldn't run tournaments the way we continue to year after year, no changes, despite seeing HUGE drops in participation. Therefore grade or birth year doesn't matter.
So, we agree that multiple changes need to be made, if we wish to stop the decline in participants... and yes, it does appear that we'd rather whine about that problem, instead of making changes that address it. In my opinion, we are so focused on the top kids that we collectively devalue the rest.
Yep. I think many of us, and probably a large majority of both HS and college coaches agree. Over and over and over proactive ways to help youth wrestling (and therefore all the other levels of the sport) have been brought up. But, not one of those ideas has been implemented. And what happens? The exact same thing over and over and over. Go figure. ???
Maybe I'm lost on this one but not sure why age level tournaments wouldn't be the norm or recommendation at the youth level which eliminates having to deal with age level restrictions on grade level tournaments. Are we still saying that Grade level tournaments are the way to go?
I think the dichotomy we are faced with results from 2 different perspectives/priorities. On one hand, everyone wants the fairest possible competitive opportunities for kids. On the other hand, we also want the best possible overall environment for each kid. Knowing how hard it can be for a kid to fit in, especially if they have been held back in school, I do think we need to at least consider the potential ramifications of further separating them from their peers. We are essentially cutting them from the herd, emotionally. I know that sounds "too sensitive" to some hardliners, but it's a real concern for many kids in that situation. Sports are more than competition; they are also a social and developmental support system. The challenge is always finding the best ways to balance our approach to best serve the needs of the kids, but it's also easy for us to narrow our focus and lose sight of that.
Quote from: imnofish on March 20, 2019, 10:53:40 AM
I think the dichotomy we are faced with results from 2 different perspectives/priorities. On one hand, everyone wants the fairest possible competitive opportunities for kids. On the other hand, we also want the best possible overall environment for each kid. Knowing how hard it can be for a kid to fit in, especially if they have been held back in school, I do think we need to at least consider the potential ramifications of further separating them from their peers. We are essentially cutting them from the herd, emotionally. I know that sounds "too sensitive" to some hardliners, but it's a real concern for many kids in that situation. Sports are more than competition; they are also a social and developmental support system. The challenge is always finding the best ways to balance our approach to best serve the needs of the kids, but it's also easy for us to narrow our focus and lose sight of that.
I would say age level would accomplish most of the priorities. I had a friend who's son was held back because of immaturity. Which put him against less physically mature kids. While he was himself developing I encouraged her to put him in the grade division he would have been part of because he was getting a false sense of development beating up less mature kids.
In addition, since State was age level it would be great for him to realize the different level of the kids in his age division. It has worked out for them in that he developed better wrestling against kids in his age bracket than those a year or two younger because of grade level.
Plus, he was hanging out with kids in his age group during tournaments versus just those in his grade level. So for that situation, age level tournaments worked out great and for grade level they moved him up to the grade level he would be part of if they didn't hold him back.
Quote from: GradeTough on March 20, 2019, 11:29:15 AM
Quote from: imnofish on March 20, 2019, 10:53:40 AM
I think the dichotomy we are faced with results from 2 different perspectives/priorities. On one hand, everyone wants the fairest possible competitive opportunities for kids. On the other hand, we also want the best possible overall environment for each kid. Knowing how hard it can be for a kid to fit in, especially if they have been held back in school, I do think we need to at least consider the potential ramifications of further separating them from their peers. We are essentially cutting them from the herd, emotionally. I know that sounds "too sensitive" to some hardliners, but it's a real concern for many kids in that situation. Sports are more than competition; they are also a social and developmental support system. The challenge is always finding the best ways to balance our approach to best serve the needs of the kids, but it's also easy for us to narrow our focus and lose sight of that.
I would say age level would accomplish most of the priorities. I had a friend who's son was held back because of immaturity. Which put him against less physically mature kids. While he was himself developing I encouraged her to put him in the grade division he would have been part of because he was getting a false sense of development beating up less mature kids.
In addition, since State was age level it would be great for him to realize the different level of the kids in his age division. It has worked out for them in that he developed better wrestling against kids in his age bracket than those a year or two younger because of grade level.
Plus, he was hanging out with kids in his age group during tournaments versus just those in his grade level. So for that situation, age level tournaments worked out great and for grade level they moved him up to the grade level he would be part of if they didn't hold him back.
I'm glad it worked out for that kid, but not every kid matures according to the same time table. If you are concerned about some kids maturing earlier than others, how do you provide consistency, when some kids who were never held back will mature early and some kids who were held back mature late? Age is not a reliable predictor. When our son was in 6th grade (and not an early maturer) he could easily beat our varsity 98 lb. wrestler, who was a Junior and a very late maturer. Focusing on technique and team unity, regardless of birth age, or physical maturity is the best course of action for every kid and the team as a whole. The more we complicate things, the more we disrupt the potential benefits of that formula.
Quote from: imnofish on March 20, 2019, 12:02:26 PM
Quote from: GradeTough on March 20, 2019, 11:29:15 AM
Quote from: imnofish on March 20, 2019, 10:53:40 AM
I think the dichotomy we are faced with results from 2 different perspectives/priorities. On one hand, everyone wants the fairest possible competitive opportunities for kids. On the other hand, we also want the best possible overall environment for each kid. Knowing how hard it can be for a kid to fit in, especially if they have been held back in school, I do think we need to at least consider the potential ramifications of further separating them from their peers. We are essentially cutting them from the herd, emotionally. I know that sounds "too sensitive" to some hardliners, but it's a real concern for many kids in that situation. Sports are more than competition; they are also a social and developmental support system. The challenge is always finding the best ways to balance our approach to best serve the needs of the kids, but it's also easy for us to narrow our focus and lose sight of that.
I would say age level would accomplish most of the priorities. I had a friend who's son was held back because of immaturity. Which put him against less physically mature kids. While he was himself developing I encouraged her to put him in the grade division he would have been part of because he was getting a false sense of development beating up less mature kids.
In addition, since State was age level it would be great for him to realize the different level of the kids in his age division. It has worked out for them in that he developed better wrestling against kids in his age bracket than those a year or two younger because of grade level.
Plus, he was hanging out with kids in his age group during tournaments versus just those in his grade level. So for that situation, age level tournaments worked out great and for grade level they moved him up to the grade level he would be part of if they didn't hold him back.
I'm glad it worked out for that kid, but not every kid matures according to the same time table. If you are concerned about some kids maturing earlier than others, how do you provide consistency, when some kids who were never held back will mature early and some kids who were held back mature late? Age is not a reliable predictor. When our son was in 6th grade (and not an early maturer) he could easily beat our varsity 98 lb. wrestler, who was a Junior and a very late maturer. Focusing on technique and team unity, regardless of birth age, or physical maturity is the best course of action for every kid and the team as a whole. The more we complicate things, the more we disrupt the potential benefits of that formula.
Yes, you are correct on that point for sure. Kids will mature at different ages...absolutely. So what is your solution looking back at the original question?
Quote from: GradeTough on March 20, 2019, 12:42:51 PM
Quote from: imnofish on March 20, 2019, 12:02:26 PM
Quote from: GradeTough on March 20, 2019, 11:29:15 AM
Quote from: imnofish on March 20, 2019, 10:53:40 AM
I think the dichotomy we are faced with results from 2 different perspectives/priorities. On one hand, everyone wants the fairest possible competitive opportunities for kids. On the other hand, we also want the best possible overall environment for each kid. Knowing how hard it can be for a kid to fit in, especially if they have been held back in school, I do think we need to at least consider the potential ramifications of further separating them from their peers. We are essentially cutting them from the herd, emotionally. I know that sounds "too sensitive" to some hardliners, but it's a real concern for many kids in that situation. Sports are more than competition; they are also a social and developmental support system. The challenge is always finding the best ways to balance our approach to best serve the needs of the kids, but it's also easy for us to narrow our focus and lose sight of that.
I would say age level would accomplish most of the priorities. I had a friend who's son was held back because of immaturity. Which put him against less physically mature kids. While he was himself developing I encouraged her to put him in the grade division he would have been part of because he was getting a false sense of development beating up less mature kids.
In addition, since State was age level it would be great for him to realize the different level of the kids in his age division. It has worked out for them in that he developed better wrestling against kids in his age bracket than those a year or two younger because of grade level.
Plus, he was hanging out with kids in his age group during tournaments versus just those in his grade level. So for that situation, age level tournaments worked out great and for grade level they moved him up to the grade level he would be part of if they didn't hold him back.
I'm glad it worked out for that kid, but not every kid matures according to the same time table. If you are concerned about some kids maturing earlier than others, how do you provide consistency, when some kids who were never held back will mature early and some kids who were held back mature late? Age is not a reliable predictor. When our son was in 6th grade (and not an early maturer) he could easily beat our varsity 98 lb. wrestler, who was a Junior and a very late maturer. Focusing on technique and team unity, regardless of birth age, or physical maturity is the best course of action for every kid and the team as a whole. The more we complicate things, the more we disrupt the potential benefits of that formula.
Yes, you are correct on that point for sure. Kids will mature at different ages...absolutely. So what is your solution looking back at the original question?
My position is that we will never be able to "level the playing field" on the basis of physical maturity, which is what the birth year advocates are attempting to do. We need to adjust our focus at the younger ages, so we are less concerned about competitiveness and more supportive of learning and utilizing solid technique. My nephew (who wrestled in a different state) is a great example for how this can work. His parents gave him an extra year before sending him to school, so he could be more developmentally ready to learn. That proved to be a very good decision, long-term. He was a larger, softer-built kid, who showed no interest in wrestling until 4th grade. He started out getting thrashed by the more experienced and more physically mature kids, so his coaches did not put him in very many tournaments, initially. Instead, they focused on helping him perfect his technique through drilling and enjoy the sport through games and other team activities. He stayed with the sport and started winning some tournaments as a 6th grader, but he was still physically immature. He was winning matches on technique and also didn't think each loss was the end of the world. Instead, he just tried to learn from it and improve, as his coaches and parents encouraged him to do. In 8th grade, he qualified for their state's Jr. High State Tournament. In high school, he started lifting weights, as his body matured. By the time he graduated, he had become a very tough, physical, 220 lb. wrestler and football player. He was recruited to wrestle heavyweight by several colleges, but ended up playing defensive nose tackle in football, for which he was recruited by over 150 schools. I think the key to his success was the patient and low-key progression utilized by the supportive adults in his corner. Our sport needs a lot more of that, as well as their focus on technique and being a good drilling partner. Their entire team benefited from this approach, regardless of their physical maturity level, because their focus was on long-term results, rather than immediate wins. During the tenure of that head coach, their high school program was highly successful.