Should the reduction in Wisconsin's high school wrestling participation be a concern?
http://www.thenorthwestern.com/story/sports/high-school/wrestling/2018/01/16/should-reduction-wisconsins-high-school-wrestling-participation-concern/1032224001/
They brought up reducing the number of weight classes to make it more competitive. Do you think that would raise numbers? I think some kids quit because they don't have a spot in the lineup, but it is sad to see all the holes in most lineups around the state. :( :( :(
I hate to say it but maybe switching the wrestling season to a fall/spring sport. Idk. It's tough competing with basketball.
Start in Feb. and end the season in May? No worries about Deer hunting, Thanksgiving, or Christmas.
Quote from: A_little_birdy on January 17, 2018, 11:25:53 AM
They brought up reducing the number of weight classes to make it more competitive. Do you think that would raise numbers? I think some kids quit because they don't have a spot in the lineup, but it is sad to see all the holes in most lineups around the state. :( :( :(
I hate to say it but maybe switching the wrestling season to a fall/spring sport. Idk. It's tough competing with basketball.
More kids quit because they are thrown into the varsity lineup to early because there is a spot and others don't appreciate being on varsity because they did not have to earn it.
I think kids learn quite fast to not treasure or appreciate what is not earned. Look at youth wrestling and all the trophies and medals. The theory that we keep giving kids things and they will want it more and stick with it is just silly. If a kid earns one medal or trophy over a season he is going to treasure that. If he has an award from every single tournament then none of them really mean much. Varsity wrestling is like giving an award to everyone.
I honestly believe wrestling would have larger numbers if they had 10 varsity weight classes and then 10 different JV weight classes that skewed lighter since they should generally be younger kids. Competitions at both levels would be so much better.
Truth is that probably 90% duals have become boring and a waste of everyone's time. Everyone knows who is going to win the dual and everyone knows who is going to win the match.
Wrestling needs excitement and competitiveness at both varsity and JV levels
Quote from: O Harris on January 17, 2018, 11:52:34 AM
Start in Feb. and end the season in May? No worries about Deer hunting, Thanksgiving, or Christmas.
If you did that you would be competing against both winter sports and spring sports and that would not make sense. I don't see moving the season as helping. Spring might help but not sure
Quote from: DocWrestling on January 17, 2018, 11:54:13 AM
Quote from: A_little_birdy on January 17, 2018, 11:25:53 AM
They brought up reducing the number of weight classes to make it more competitive. Do you think that would raise numbers? I think some kids quit because they don't have a spot in the lineup, but it is sad to see all the holes in most lineups around the state. :( :( :(
I hate to say it but maybe switching the wrestling season to a fall/spring sport. Idk. It's tough competing with basketball.
More kids quit because they are thrown into the varsity lineup to early because there is a spot and others don't appreciate being on varsity because they did not have to earn it.
I think kids learn quite fast to not treasure or appreciate what is not earned. Look at youth wrestling and all the trophies and medals. The theory that we keep giving kids things and they will want it more and stick with it is just silly. If a kid earns one medal or trophy over a season he is going to treasure that. If he has an award from every single tournament then none of them really mean much. Varsity wrestling is like giving an award to everyone.
I honestly believe wrestling would have larger numbers if they had 10 varsity weight classes and then 10 different JV weight classes that skewed lighter since they should generally be younger kids. Competitions at both levels would be so much better.
Truth is that probably 90% duals have become boring and a waste of everyone's time. Everyone knows who is going to win the dual and everyone knows who is going to win the match.
Wrestling needs excitement and competitiveness at both varsity and JV levels
Agreed. Stop giving every kid a trophy/medal. Make it something that they have to work for or earn. I would like to see 12 weight classes and then as you said more of an emphasis on a JV season/competitions. This would give them matchups as well.
Where do you see them "giving everyone a medal"? This is repeated on here a great deal. I don't see it. We do what most other sports do in this regard.
Also, as far as not wanting to compete with the basketball season.... how many competitive wrestlers are playing basketball? None in my school of 2400.
Neenah was the first youth tournament I have been to in a long time that did not give an award to everyone. They gave out to top 3.
Otherwise everyone gets an award. Everyone that shows up gets an award.
I don't know of any other sport that does that.
It is always amazing at the Marty Loy JV tourney how many freshman come up and are disappointed and surprised that only the JV champion (8-man bracket) gets a medal. Then you have the kids that win can't believe it is not some huge custom trophy or medal.
I'm not sure if any school has competitive wrestlers that play basketball, its the kids that might choose wrestling if basketball season wasn't going on.
This is a broad issue with many root causes there is no one thing fixes all solution.
Quote from: MNbadger on January 17, 2018, 12:24:16 PM
Where do you see them "giving everyone a medal"? This is repeated on here a great deal. I don't see it. We do what most other sports do in this regard.
Also, as far as not wanting to compete with the basketball season.... how many competitive wrestlers are playing basketball? None in my school of 2400.
Basically inn every youth tournament there is in the entire state minus probably a handful. You got pinned 3 times...here is a trophy.
I would agree that at a majority of local tournaments everyone receives something. They do this at the youngth level to encourage everyone to continue and come back to their tourney the next year. I am from the ol' school so I don't agree but I understand why they are doing it. I rarely participate in the rewards ceremony...I let my wife do her picture thing. I could care less about a trophy or medal rather I concentrate on the performance.
Soccer does it, tennis does it, youth basketball does it, etc. At least around here.
Quote from: DocWrestling on January 17, 2018, 12:46:44 PM
Neenah was the first youth tournament I have been to in a long time that did not give an award to everyone. They gave out to top 3.
Otherwise everyone gets an award. Everyone that shows up gets an award.
I don't know of any other sport that does that.
It is always amazing at the Marty Loy JV tourney how many freshman come up and are disappointed and surprised that only the JV champion (8-man bracket) gets a medal. Then you have the kids that win can't believe it is not some huge custom trophy or medal.
Quote from: DocWrestling on January 17, 2018, 11:54:13 AM
Quote from: A_little_birdy on January 17, 2018, 11:25:53 AM
They brought up reducing the number of weight classes to make it more competitive. Do you think that would raise numbers? I think some kids quit because they don't have a spot in the lineup, but it is sad to see all the holes in most lineups around the state. :( :( :(
I hate to say it but maybe switching the wrestling season to a fall/spring sport. Idk. It's tough competing with basketball.
More kids quit because they are thrown into the varsity lineup to early because there is a spot and others don't appreciate being on varsity because they did not have to earn it.
I think kids learn quite fast to not treasure or appreciate what is not earned. Look at youth wrestling and all the trophies and medals. The theory that we keep giving kids things and they will want it more and stick with it is just silly. If a kid earns one medal or trophy over a season he is going to treasure that. If he has an award from every single tournament then none of them really mean much. Varsity wrestling is like giving an award to everyone.
I honestly believe wrestling would have larger numbers if they had 10 varsity weight classes and then 10 different JV weight classes that skewed lighter since they should generally be younger kids. Competitions at both levels would be so much better.
Truth is that probably 90% duals have become boring and a waste of everyone's time. Everyone knows who is going to win the dual and everyone knows who is going to win the match.
Wrestling needs excitement and competitiveness at both varsity and JV levels
I have done a 180 on this in the last 2 years. I used to advocate for keeping the current number of weight classes, but I now have come to the conclusion that this is not in the best interest of the sport. I would also move to 10 weight classes. Perhaps starting at 108-118-128-138-148-158-168-178-190- Hwt.
I believe if more effort was then put into the JV tournaments & even attempt to have JV duals, it would create a more worthwhile experience for the Jv wrestlers.
One issue that we are not going to be able to change is the trickle down effect of all of the elite youth clubs in today's sport. In the 1970s & 80s it was usual for a kid to take up the sport as a Freshman & have a lot of success within a few years. In today's world if you are taking up the sport for the first time as a frosh you so far behind the kids who have been wrestling for years, especially the kids that have been wrestling most of the year with elite clubs. This gap in talent I think causes a lot of kids new to our sport to give up with the realization they won't catch up in 3 years.
Boys basketball, Girls Basketball are both down about 14%, same as Wrestling looking at the 2009-10 data compared to 2016-17 data in WI.
All sports are losing numbers. Wrestling's problem is that the reduction in numbers greatly affects the team aspect of the sport. Basketball just has fewer kids on the bench or they cut fewer kids or they no longer have a freshman team.
2 options
1) reduce the weight classes to improve the team aspect- I truly believe the team aspect is what will keep kids in the sport. Even if they lose their match they still might win as a team and might contribute by not getting pinned. Kind of like the basketball player that sets screens and never scores and fans barely notice. This also allows the focus to be on team and like all kids in other team sports they can blame others if the team does not win and takes the individual pressure off. Something drastic like 10 weight classes might be the right jolt. Dropping one or two will have very little affect and I think we need big change
2) Go to purely an individual sport- this is where we are headed. It will be a sport of only those wrestling year round and attending clubs. It will hurt all and is hurting some great wrestlers because they do not even have practice partners. This will lead to a downward number in participation. This will lead to being just a club sport.
We need to back off on weekends and length of the season a bit. This would bring in more wrestlers and would likely bring in more coaches. We are losing coaches or fewer are going into coaching at the same rate we are losing wrestlers. The "wrestling" season does not have to shorten for the die hard motivated wrestlers. Lets shorten the "high school wrestling" season and then allow the die hards to wrestle more against each other in training practices at clubs and high schools and in open tournaments.
One thing we do need to copy from youth sports is dividing kids up by ability at individual tournaments. No reason for any of the matches between 24-3 kid and 3-24 kid. At tournaments separate into gold and silver divisions. Everyone gets the same quality 3 matches and we no longer waste our time with all those matches between top seeds and low seeds. Fewer rounds.
Holiday tournaments should take the lead. Take the top 16 seeds and wrestle a tournament and then put the next 16 in silver division and rest in bronze division.
Quality matches for all levels makes it more fun for wrestlers and fans, shorter days is better for wrestlers, fans, and coaches, etc.
"More kids quit because they are thrown into the varsity lineup to early because there is a spot and others don't appreciate being on varsity because they did not have to earn it."
100% Getyourpoints...that IS a coaching issue. If that coach can't read what kid can or cannot handle getting thrown out there, that's on him.
Yes, reduction in WI HS wrestling participation should be a concern. But cutting weight classes is NOT the answer. So many things should/can be done first:
1) Continue to promote and progress MS and youth clubs. Every sport is fighting the "elite" club issue. Difference is most sports have rec or MS teams to get those that can't join the elite clubs the chance to learn/love a sport. You are seeing more and more dual format tourneys in youth now, that is a start.
2) See prior posts on dodging tough matches for better records. See prior posts on creating excitement in the sport.
3) Get rid of growth allowance. It encourages weight cutting. Weight cutting is a large deterrent for kids. Both for those electing to cut and those electing not to cut. Nothing more demoralizing for that grinder, .500 wrestler that starts seeing some successes and has to finish the season wrestling kids that a month ago were a weight class up but come down for "growth allowance."
4) This will make some people mad, but increase co-op of schools. If 2 schools for years and years have programs with multiple forfeits and low #'s now matter who the coach is--maybe that is just not a wrestling school. Put 2 together for more entertaining duals, competitive team. Why punish all teams by reducing weight classes because wrestling is just not valued in some schools?
5) JHI
6) Sure I am missing more, but I will never believe that limiting opportunity (across the whole state), will increase participation.
According to body fat testing for the past six years, the 12 weights would be the following:
114
124
131
138
144
151
158
167
178
194
221
285
I totally agree that throwing kids out there is a coaching issue. There IS, however, pressure to move kids up, win duals, etc.
We don't know that reducing weights would help. We've never tried it.
I agree that we have to keep growing the sport, and adjusting the weights to see if that helps.
There are coaches/wrestlers who dodge competition, but there are far more that don't.
I think the 1.5% rule that was implemented will help considerably with weight cutting. Most kids don't have the resolution to stay down for a long period of time.
Co-ops are tough. We are in one right now. It has been a very positive experience in our first year. Our "other school", while also not a wrestling school, has been extremely supportive of the whole thing. There are a lot of little things that could make things tough, but after a while things start to become normal.
I promise to bring up the reduction in weights thing in March right after NCAAs. Check back then.
I'll bore you to tears with numbers. Stay tuned.
It is hard to fill 14 weight classes, plain and simple. It doesn't matter what school you are. Look at the daily results on track and it will show you even long standing traditionally strong wrestling teams have a hard time filling all varsity weight classes. Some are just for a couple of matches or a tournament but the majority of the teams it is for the whole season. The numbers for wrestling will continue to go down. It is a very hard sport to compete in. We ask way to much time from our wrestlers and their families with constant tournaments, dieting is tough, practice is tougher, wrestling to outsiders looks like a cult and they think we are a little off balance. We wear that as a badge of honor and courage but we are the unusual in today's society. If we as a sport can't find a way to conform to today's society than we will be left in the rear view mirror. Look no farther than what has happened to MLB and their dwindling numbers over the past 40 years and what is currently happening to the NFL. We need to adjust rapidly or we will continue to lose kids at a quicker rate in the future.
*fewer weight classes. 11 or 12 is the number. I don't like taking opportunities away from kids at the varsity level but as a whole for the sport it is what is best. Having fewer weight classes will also probably help to keep some kids from open enrolling because they might not be able to make the varsity lineup right away. Which in turn would help strengthen the team the kid was coming from.
*reduce the number of tournaments to 4 regular season. Yes I know each team can go to less. But if you told coaches you could go to 15 varsity tournaments almost every coach would go to 15. Give the kids and their families back some of their weekends. This would make the season not such a grind on families and you would get more parents open to their child wrestling. Make tournaments into something special not something they are just going to every weekend.
*make girls wrestling a wiaa varsity sport. This needs to happen asap. This would really help our sport tremendously. More eyeballs watching and participating.
*get rid of the growth allowance and multiple days wrestling allowance. 113 is 113 every time you weigh in. This would greatly help the swings in weight.
*keep using the 1.5% rule. It is working.
I love this sport and everything about it. But it is hurting and I am afraid if we don't make changes it will continue to shirk in numbers to an unobtainable size for having duals. Then it will be just about individual tournaments which is what it basically is for over 75% of the teams right now.
Your data for fat testing only includes youth who are wrestling. If we are trying to grow the sport, we should include all potential wrestlers. If you look at the CDC numbers for weight, your weight classes would not be inclusive (the present weights are not either). I have posted this data previously so I am not inclined to do so again (one could search this site I suppose). We never should have cut off the lighter weights in particular. As far as your claim (and other's) that the 1.5% rule is "working", what do you base this on? There is little to no scientific study on wrestler's weight loss and the effect on health either good or bad.
I am not trying to attack you or anyone else. We have a tendency to cannibalize ourselves as a sport and we should be very careful using "statistics" carelessly.
Respectfully, MNBadger
Quote from: Ghetto on January 17, 2018, 09:00:07 PM
According to body fat testing for the past six years, the 12 weights would be the following:
114
124
131
138
144
151
158
167
178
194
221
285
I totally agree that throwing kids out there is a coaching issue. There IS, however, pressure to move kids up, win duals, etc.
We don't know that reducing weights would help. We've never tried it.
I agree that we have to keep growing the sport, and adjusting the weights to see if that helps.
There are coaches/wrestlers who dodge competition, but there are far more that don't.
I think the 1.5% rule that was implemented will help considerably with weight cutting. Most kids don't have the resolution to stay down for a long period of time.
Co-ops are tough. We are in one right now. It has been a very positive experience in our first year. Our "other school", while also not a wrestling school, has been extremely supportive of the whole thing. There are a lot of little things that could make things tough, but after a while things start to become normal.
I promise to bring up the reduction in weights thing in March right after NCAAs. Check back then.
I'll bore you to tears with numbers. Stay tuned.
Curious if there are any coaches on here that could offer some input on JHI. Is it even on the radar?
Quote from: Barou on January 18, 2018, 09:18:46 AM
Curious if there are any coaches on here that could offer some input on JHI. Is it even on the radar?
I highly doubt it is as it would also have to include all other sports. Don't see enough push for JHI in all sports.
We got push back to include 6th grade with middle school individual sports (CC, Wrestling, Track) where they don't take spots on teams but just add numbers so I doubt our school would even want to do JHI.
Quote from: foose4 on January 18, 2018, 09:59:54 AM
Quote from: Barou on January 18, 2018, 09:18:46 AM
Curious if there are any coaches on here that could offer some input on JHI. Is it even on the radar?
I highly doubt it is as it would also have to include all other sports. Don't see enough push for JHI in all sports.
We got push back to include 6th grade with middle school individual sports (CC, Wrestling, Track) where they don't take spots on teams but just add numbers so I doubt our school would even want to do JHI.
Agree i feel like that would be a long way from happening. I see the benefits of it in wrestling, but think administrators and higher ups view it as a no go. It would be a complete shift in scheduling, events, etc.
Quote from: DocWrestling on January 17, 2018, 12:46:44 PM
Neenah was the first youth tournament I have been to in a long time that did not give an award to everyone. They gave out to top 3.
Otherwise everyone gets an award. Everyone that shows up gets an award.
I don't know of any other sport that does that.
It is always amazing at the Marty Loy JV tourney how many freshman come up and are disappointed and surprised that only the JV champion (8-man bracket) gets a medal. Then you have the kids that win can't believe it is not some huge custom trophy or medal.
I know Shawano and Mosinee did same this year. My only issue with that is why do tournament costs keep rising and giving less awards. Absolutely no reason to have local tournaments more than $15.00.
I think in the younger grades all should receive something and once 5th grade hits we can go top 3.
Quote from: wrastle63 on January 18, 2018, 10:02:50 AM
Quote from: foose4 on January 18, 2018, 09:59:54 AM
Quote from: Barou on January 18, 2018, 09:18:46 AM
Curious if there are any coaches on here that could offer some input on JHI. Is it even on the radar?
I highly doubt it is as it would also have to include all other sports. Don't see enough push for JHI in all sports.
We got push back to include 6th grade with middle school individual sports (CC, Wrestling, Track) where they don't take spots on teams but just add numbers so I doubt our school would even want to do JHI.
Agree i feel like that would be a long way from happening. I see the benefits of it in wrestling, but think administrators and higher ups view it as a no go. It would be a complete shift in scheduling, events, etc.
Minnesota makes it work in all sports in one form or another. Seems to be a lack of knowledge if administrators are "worried about it". Or a lack of motivation.
When I coached in MN at a small school there were junior high athletes competing a the varsity level in wrestling, cross country, girls basketball, baseball, softball, and boys and girls track. Some also competed at the JV level in football, volleyball, and boys basketball.
Numbers going down is absolutely a concern.
We need to find a way to keep the middle level wrestlers involved in the sport. As we become more specialized, we lose those kids that are vital to our numbers. Silver and JV divisions would help with keeping those mid level kids. Let's face it, success keeps numbers high, wrestling is easy to fail at, so kids turn away much quicker than other sports.....
Lowering the number of Varsity weight classes should be considered. It still gives many kids the opportunity to grow in to the sport on JV, at the same time if the kid is ready for varsity, he/she will eventually earn the spot at the right time. We've all seen JV level kids on varsity hoping they not give up "6" vs forfeiting. As a fan: I'd love to see 11 fully contested weights vs 10 contested matches and 4 forfeits. Yes, I suggest 11... With match "won" count being the first tie breaker? 6 wins vs 5 losses
I am not in favor of Junior High Inclusion. Simply put.... I'm not convinced that many 7th and 8th grade kids could handle the athletic and social pressure of competing at a high varsity level. I'm sure "some" kids may be able to do it, however the vast majority should not even be put in that position. Also, exposing a young 12, 13 or 14 year old to the wrong 18 year old (on the bus, in the locker room or on the "Team chat" is just not a good scenario. As much as these kids bond during a season, it is a recipe for disaster. Coaches and parents can't be everywhere and can't police it enough.
Quote from: Demon7 on January 18, 2018, 10:41:05 AM
Numbers going down is absolutely a concern.
We need to find a way to keep the middle level wrestlers involved in the sport. As we become more specialized, we lose those kids that are vital to our numbers. Silver and JV divisions would help with keeping those mid level kids. Let's face it, success keeps numbers high, wrestling is easy to fail at, so kids turn away much quicker than other sports.....
Lowering the number of Varsity weight classes should be considered. It still gives many kids the opportunity to grow in to the sport on JV, at the same time if the kid is ready for varsity, he/she will eventually earn the spot at the right time. We've all seen JV level kids on varsity hoping they not give up "6" vs forfeiting. As a fan: I'd love to see 11 fully contested weights vs 10 contested matches and 4 forfeits. Yes, I suggest 11... With match "won" count being the first tie breaker? 6 wins vs 5 losses
I am not in favor of Junior High Inclusion. Simply put.... I'm not convinced that many 7th and 8th grade kids could handle the athletic and social pressure of competing at a high varsity level. I'm sure "some" kids may be able to do it, however the vast majority should not even be put in that position. Also, exposing a young 12, 13 or 14 year old to the wrong 18 year old (on the bus, in the locker room or on the "Team chat" is just not a good scenario. As much as these kids bond during a season, it is a recipe for disaster. Coaches and parents can't be everywhere and can't police it enough.
And yet other states can make JHI work. Must be a Wisconsin thing. Totally disagree with the "recipe for disaster" comment. It's just another variable in a program to manage.
Quote from: getyourpoints on January 18, 2018, 10:33:31 AM
The WIAA doesn't trust the coaches enough to bring in JHI. By going to JHI you are saying to your coach and parents that they are aware and smart enough to have the best interest of the athletes in mind. The WIAA is a rule dominated organization vs states that have JHI putting more controll in the hands of the local community and school.
My son recently has taken advantage of JHI and is enjoying being with kids of a similar skill set and maturity. I can also let you all know that past 113 pounds there are hardly any 7th graders and very few 8th graders wrestling varsity. Most of the good 7th and 8th graders bounce back and forth between MS and JV events, they may get in 3-5 Varsity matches all season, but for the rare mature kid it removes the glass ceiling.
JHI is a much better solution then the unorganized MS league that most states run, and I believe this is where WI is losing a ton of wrestlers. Way to many dads running MS teams which creates political issues and limitations on coaching (daddy ball).
For WI to reverse the attrition rate in all sports the local community's need to take the lead and put the WIAA in a supporting role versus a leadership role.
Rules can not change culture, leaders change cultures. Wisconsin needs new leadership in the WWF to save wrestling as a dominant sport.
It's working in other states with better results on and off the mat.
My early vote for post of the year. Well stated.
I don't know how rampant this is across the state but I hear from our middle school coaches that in our conference many of the good wrestlers get very few quality matches and the ones they get they usually have to wrestle up. In these cases I feel that JHI would be a good thing. These kids are often frustrated and I have little doubt that they would have a hard time adjusting at the HS level.
Quote from: Japanese Whizzer on January 18, 2018, 12:05:29 PM
Minnesota's entire school system is designed around "JHI". That is, these schools are K-6 & 7-12. If Wisconsin were to make this work, it feels like it would require an overhaul of the entire school system.
Seems like a lot to "save wrestling" in a non-wrestling state.
Exactly that is why it won't happen anytime in the near future. Even if they want to do it as a state it can't just happen because of the entire system.
Even with JHI, Minnesota has issues with filling weights. It's not a catch-all, but it would improve kids skill levels for sure.
The ADs, because of the structure of schools in Wisconsin, see it as a major headache. It won't happen here.
You have middle schools in Wisconsin. We did it with a junior high system as well. JHI is no big change. We still have a nice, well organized middle school league with a "conference" tournament. The better 7th-8th graders make their way to the hs, the others stay at the ms. At the end of the ms season, they are all welcome to finish the season at the hs.
A couple of misconceptions about JHI in MN. 1st being not all 7-8th graders wrestle varsity. Most stay in middles school. I coach middle school for our school and we have 44 7th and 8th graders wrestling in the middle school and we have 5 7th and 8th graders wrestling in high school. Only 2 actually wrestle on varsity (and not full time) 3 others wrestle on jv and 1 even comes back to middle school to wrestle with us.
The second miscomcomception is that most schools here are 7-12. Less than half are 7-12 and most of them are smalk districts like the school I attended in Crivitz Wi where all were housed in same building but still seperated by middle school and high school. In fact the school that my kids go to is a 7th-9th.
JHI can work in Wisconsin and could help many district with numbers and would certainly help those advanced kids in the middle school who are not getting matches now.
Quote from: Ghetto on January 18, 2018, 12:53:51 PM
Even with JHI, Minnesota has issues with filling weights. It's not a catch-all, but it would improve kids skill levels for sure.
The ADs, because of the structure of schools in Wisconsin, see it as a major headache. It won't happen here.
Since it's a "major headache" we should leave it alone. That's the spirit Wisconsin ADs!!!
I am for JHI just because I think it would benefit the best wrestlers. When I was in school it was 7-9th junior high. Almost all 9th graders wrestled middle school with only a few going to the high school. Same could be done with 7th and 8th graders that are advanced.
But...
I find it absolutely silly that we are talking about JHI as a solution just to help fill weight classes. That just tells me we have too many weight classes that we think adding two more grades will help.
I want a system that fills weight classes with quality experienced wrestlers and each weight class also has a back-up in case a kid misses a match for injury, skin, family stuff, grades, suspension, etc.
Coaches I have spoken with fear JHI because they think all these parents of 7th/8th graders are going to want to wrestle HS and then they have more immature kids, more issues in dealing with more teachers and schools, etc.
Honestly I wish the NFHS would just approve a 10 weight class system and then high school associations offer both 10 and 14 weight class divisions and let teams decide what they want to be in.
Quote from: DocWrestling on January 18, 2018, 01:45:37 PM
I am for JHI just because I think it would benefit the best wrestlers. When I was in school it was 7-9th junior high. Almost all 9th graders wrestled middle school with only a few going to the high school. Same could be done with 7th and 8th graders that are advanced.
But...
I find it absolutely silly that we are talking about JHI as a solution just to help fill weight classes. That just tells me we have too many weight classes that we think adding two more grades will help.
I want a system that fills weight classes with quality experienced wrestlers and each weight class also has a back-up in case a kid misses a match for injury, skin, family stuff, grades, suspension, etc.
Coaches I have spoken with fear JHI because they think all these parents of 7th/8th graders are going to want to wrestle HS and then they have more immature kids, more issues in dealing with more teachers and schools, etc.
Honestly I wish the NFHS would just approve a 10 weight class system and then high school associations offer both 10 and 14 weight class divisions and let teams decide what they want to be in.
It will improve filling weight classes not solve it. Personally, I'd like to see a 12 weight class system. 105, 115, then college weights.
I don't understand how coaches can have a "fear". It's not like WI is breaking new ground here. There is evidence based JHI in multiple states. Have them get in touch with some Minnesota coaches or Kentucky, Dakotas, etc.
What's sad is we can't even blame the WIAA on obstructing progress because our coaches don't care enough to propose it. While the WIAA is trying to be the pioneers for sportsmanship memos and basketball floor security would be nice if we could get them to at least vote on JHI.
Quote from: Barou on January 18, 2018, 02:15:04 PM
Quote from: DocWrestling on January 18, 2018, 01:45:37 PM
I am for JHI just because I think it would benefit the best wrestlers. When I was in school it was 7-9th junior high. Almost all 9th graders wrestled middle school with only a few going to the high school. Same could be done with 7th and 8th graders that are advanced.
But...
I find it absolutely silly that we are talking about JHI as a solution just to help fill weight classes. That just tells me we have too many weight classes that we think adding two more grades will help.
I want a system that fills weight classes with quality experienced wrestlers and each weight class also has a back-up in case a kid misses a match for injury, skin, family stuff, grades, suspension, etc.
Coaches I have spoken with fear JHI because they think all these parents of 7th/8th graders are going to want to wrestle HS and then they have more immature kids, more issues in dealing with more teachers and schools, etc.
Honestly I wish the NFHS would just approve a 10 weight class system and then high school associations offer both 10 and 14 weight class divisions and let teams decide what they want to be in.
It will improve filling weight classes not solve it. Personally, I'd like to see a 12 weight class system. 105, 115, then college weights.
I don't understand how coaches can have a "fear". It's not like WI is breaking new ground here. There is evidence based JHI in multiple states. Have them get in touch with some Minnesota coaches or Kentucky, Dakotas, etc.
What's sad is we can't even blame the WIAA on obstructing progress because our coaches don't care enough to propose it. While the WIAA is trying to be the pioneers for sportsmanship memos and basketball floor security would be nice if we could get them to at least vote on JHI.
I agree with this post! Love the 12 weight system with college weights. I don't think its as much of a coaches fear as it is ADs and WIAA won't do it. I would prefer to have JHI for me personally, but I just don't see them passing it. I think that is what most people are saying.
Quote from: wrastle63 on January 18, 2018, 02:19:23 PM
Quote from: Barou on January 18, 2018, 02:15:04 PM
Quote from: DocWrestling on January 18, 2018, 01:45:37 PM
I am for JHI just because I think it would benefit the best wrestlers. When I was in school it was 7-9th junior high. Almost all 9th graders wrestled middle school with only a few going to the high school. Same could be done with 7th and 8th graders that are advanced.
But...
I find it absolutely silly that we are talking about JHI as a solution just to help fill weight classes. That just tells me we have too many weight classes that we think adding two more grades will help.
I want a system that fills weight classes with quality experienced wrestlers and each weight class also has a back-up in case a kid misses a match for injury, skin, family stuff, grades, suspension, etc.
Coaches I have spoken with fear JHI because they think all these parents of 7th/8th graders are going to want to wrestle HS and then they have more immature kids, more issues in dealing with more teachers and schools, etc.
Honestly I wish the NFHS would just approve a 10 weight class system and then high school associations offer both 10 and 14 weight class divisions and let teams decide what they want to be in.
It will improve filling weight classes not solve it. Personally, I'd like to see a 12 weight class system. 105, 115, then college weights.
I don't understand how coaches can have a "fear". It's not like WI is breaking new ground here. There is evidence based JHI in multiple states. Have them get in touch with some Minnesota coaches or Kentucky, Dakotas, etc.
What's sad is we can't even blame the WIAA on obstructing progress because our coaches don't care enough to propose it. While the WIAA is trying to be the pioneers for sportsmanship memos and basketball floor security would be nice if we could get them to at least vote on JHI.
I agree with this post! Love the 12 weight system with college weights. I don't think its as much of a coaches fear as it is ADs and WIAA won't do it. I would prefer to have JHI for me personally, but I just don't see them passing it. I think that is what most people are saying.
12? I thought college has 10 weight classes
105? I guess it is just our experience but we are a D1 school and I cannot remember the last time we had a full time 106lber much less a varsity caliber kid. To me there are so few kids that fit this weight class and when we get to February it will be filled with guys that are cutting a ton of weight.
Quote from: getyourpoints on January 18, 2018, 10:33:31 AM
The WIAA doesn't trust the coaches enough to bring in JHI. By going to JHI you are saying to your coach and parents that they are aware and smart enough to have the best interest of the athletes in mind. The WIAA is a rule dominated organization vs states that have JHI putting more controll in the hands of the local community and school.
My son recently has taken advantage of JHI and is enjoying being with kids of a similar skill set and maturity. I can also let you all know that past 113 pounds there are hardly any 7th graders and very few 8th graders wrestling varsity. Most of the good 7th and 8th graders bounce back and forth between MS and JV events, they may get in 3-5 Varsity matches all season, but for the rare mature kid it removes the glass ceiling.
JHI is a much better solution then the unorganized MS league that most states run, and I believe this is where WI is losing a ton of wrestlers. Way to many dads running MS teams which creates political issues and limitations on coaching (daddy ball).
For WI to reverse the attrition rate in all sports the local community's need to take the lead and put the WIAA in a supporting role versus a leadership role.
Rules can not change culture, leaders change cultures. Wisconsin needs new leadership in the WWF to save wrestling as a dominant sport.
It's working in other states with better results on and off the mat.
All nearby states are losing wrestlers, MN and IA are a very small decline in the data set I looked at but MI, IL are losing 5% more wrestlers than we are and yet, we here about all the success IL is having.
I think you are right that it is culture, but I don't think it is the WWF but rather a way of life and even then, in Iowa, where the culture is better than anywhere, they are losing kids albeit only 1.2%. Culture of wrestling families/communities will trump other offerings like the mountain bike club teams as mentioned above and the Family/Community Wrestling Culture in IA and MN is stronger than WI.
IA -1.2%
MN - 1.3%
WI - 14.9%
MI - 18.6%
IL -20.2%
2016-2017 vs 2009-2010 seasons source NFHS.
The WWF has over 200 clubs and rising enrollment. For the numbers of Wisconsin population, Wisconsin has the highest percent of membership of the nation I believe.
"I guess it is just our experience but we are a D1 school and I cannot remember the last time we had a full time 106lber much less a varsity caliber kid."....My 106#er will probably finish the season with 1 forfeit this whole season in dual matches. So yes, there are areas where 106 numbers are just fine. The one forfeit was from a team that gave 4-5 forfeits that night, so I would say that is a team issue, not weight issue. Also, I would argue that with the right coach, that non-"varsity caliber" kid has the opportunity to get his lumps and turn into that varsity caliber kid much quicker on the varsity team then JV.
Obviously I am biased to the small wrestlers, but why eliminate one end of the bell curve of kids? Just look at the talent in 106# this year. Imagine telling them to go up to complete at 114# or whatever. You would lose more kids then gain! We want to make wrestling more open and less "cult", so why eliminate opportunities for a group of kids that honestly have trouble fitting into any other winter sport? If truly the only way to grow the sport is to limit varsity opportunities (which will never make sense to me), then stretch out the weights where most kids are...in the middle weights.
Also-having a good 100-106# sit on JV for 1-2 years waiting for him to be big enough to compete at 114# (which is often 120-125# kids cutting down) will burn them out/disenfranchise them just as quick.
IF you are advocating reducing the lower weights you are nuts. Of course since your kid is not a lower weight that's expected. And yes you are enjoying JHI in MN because the stud starter is out. Hence your move to that program was one of an opportunist to toss your kid in for varsity reps that you would not have seen here in the Motherland. Would you have gone to Simley otherwise? What other programs did you look at?
Quote from: getyourpoints on January 17, 2018, 05:17:21 PM
Quote from: DocWrestling on January 17, 2018, 11:54:13 AM
Quote from: A_little_birdy on January 17, 2018, 11:25:53 AM
They brought up reducing the number of weight classes to make it more competitive. Do you think that would raise numbers? I think some kids quit because they don't have a spot in the lineup, but it is sad to see all the holes in most lineups around the state. :( :( :(
I hate to say it but maybe switching the wrestling season to a fall/spring sport. Idk. It's tough competing with basketball.
More kids quit because they are thrown into the varsity lineup to early because there is a spot and others don't appreciate being on varsity because they did not have to earn it.
I think kids learn quite fast to not treasure or appreciate what is not earned. Look at youth wrestling and all the trophies and medals. The theory that we keep giving kids things and they will want it more and stick with it is just silly. If a kid earns one medal or trophy over a season he is going to treasure that. If he has an award from every single tournament then none of them really mean much. Varsity wrestling is like giving an award to everyone.
I honestly believe wrestling would have larger numbers if they had 10 varsity weight classes and then 10 different JV weight classes that skewed lighter since they should generally be younger kids. Competitions at both levels would be so much better.
Truth is that probably 90% duals have become boring and a waste of everyone's time. Everyone knows who is going to win the dual and everyone knows who is going to win the match.
Wrestling needs excitement and competitiveness at both varsity and JV levels
If that was true MN would be dropping rapidly with JHI??
Better coaches is and always will be the answer
Ya - let's reduce the lower weights, they aren't any good. Will someone please call David Taylor and let him know that the 106 pound weight class doesn't really matter?
Look at the #1 wrestler in D1 at 106 - one HECK of a wrestler. Why did he not have the success as a freshman - undersized for 106. Now as a sophomore he is a right sized 106 pounder. So let's start at 115 so this kid wouldn't even have a chance to be competitive at the varsity level until he is a junior? Sorry - that is CRAZY - one of the benefits of this sport is that even the smaller guys can compete.
Yes - my wrestler falls into the smaller range so I may be biased.
One last rant - the school district my wrestlers goes to has 4 legitimate 106 pound wrestlers - my guess is that all four could make a varsity lineup in 80% of the schools in Wisconsin...so it does seem that there are really talented 106 pound wrestlers in the state.
Quote from: DocWrestling on January 18, 2018, 03:28:48 PM
105? I guess it is just our experience but we are a D1 school and I cannot remember the last time we had a full time 106lber much less a varsity caliber kid. To me there are so few kids that fit this weight class and when we get to February it will be filled with guys that are cutting a ton of weight.
We have filled this class always. Next year three 106s....maybe 4. Our small school conference is extremely loaded with exceptional 106 pounders. I would hate for the lowest class to move up any more than it is.
Quote from: TomM on January 18, 2018, 04:46:34 PM
The WWF has over 200 clubs and rising enrollment. For the numbers of Wisconsin population, Wisconsin has the highest percent of membership of the nation I believe.
While I'm not sure I do feel youth numbers are up....but how do we bridge the gap is the problem. There are so many reasons kids don't stick with it....hard to coach nowadays with keeping 4th graders to get to be sophomores in the sport.
Quote from: Queene Anne on January 18, 2018, 08:04:46 PM
IF you are advocating reducing the lower weights you are nuts. Of course since your kid is not a lower weight that's expected. And yes you are enjoying JHI in MN because the stud starter is out. Hence your move to that program was one of an opportunist to toss your kid in for varsity reps that you would not have seen here in the Motherland. Would you have gone to Simley otherwise? What other programs did you look at?
Quote from: getyourpoints on January 17, 2018, 05:17:21 PM
Quote from: DocWrestling on January 17, 2018, 11:54:13 AM
Quote from: A_little_birdy on January 17, 2018, 11:25:53 AM
They brought up reducing the number of weight classes to make it more competitive. Do you think that would raise numbers? I think some kids quit because they don't have a spot in the lineup, but it is sad to see all the holes in most lineups around the state. :( :( :(
I hate to say it but maybe switching the wrestling season to a fall/spring sport. Idk. It's tough competing with basketball.
More kids quit because they are thrown into the varsity lineup to early because there is a spot and others don't appreciate being on varsity because they did not have to earn it.
I think kids learn quite fast to not treasure or appreciate what is not earned. Look at youth wrestling and all the trophies and medals. The theory that we keep giving kids things and they will want it more and stick with it is just silly. If a kid earns one medal or trophy over a season he is going to treasure that. If he has an award from every single tournament then none of them really mean much. Varsity wrestling is like giving an award to everyone.
I honestly believe wrestling would have larger numbers if they had 10 varsity weight classes and then 10 different JV weight classes that skewed lighter since they should generally be younger kids. Competitions at both levels would be so much better.
Truth is that probably 90% duals have become boring and a waste of everyone's time. Everyone knows who is going to win the dual and everyone knows who is going to win the match.
Wrestling needs excitement and competitiveness at both varsity and JV levels
If that was true MN would be dropping rapidly with JHI??
Better coaches is and always will be the answer
Actually we are still waiting for how they are going to save Wisconsin wrestling with all the programs their group was developing....apparently transferring out is an option? I called BS immediately and was proven right.
Quote from: padre on January 18, 2018, 09:23:50 PM
Actually we are still waiting for how they are going to save Wisconsin wrestling with all the programs their group was developing....apparently transferring out is an option? I called BS immediately and was proven right.
Yeah the guys with the answers and push for JHI are the guys who bolt and preach. Don't get me wrong I see the merits of JHI for small communities but these guys bolted for opportunity plain and simple. From what I have see at Bistate and other competitions with MN teams the 7/8 is capitalized on by a few above average kids that are the exception but most kids are getting tossed in the mix are average at best. I think that does more to hurt than help in more cases than not.
Quote from: getyourpoints on January 18, 2018, 09:41:12 PM
Padre you are simply irrelevant.
Braggadocious claims and chest thumping on how you were going to save WI Wrestling is what has been irrelevant. Throwing $$$ around seemed to be more self serving than sport serving.
Quote from: getyourpoints on January 18, 2018, 09:41:12 PM
Quote from: padre on January 18, 2018, 09:23:50 PM
Quote from: Queene Anne on January 18, 2018, 08:04:46 PM
IF you are advocating reducing the lower weights you are nuts. Of course since your kid is not a lower weight that's expected. And yes you are enjoying JHI in MN because the stud starter is out. Hence your move to that program was one of an opportunist to toss your kid in for varsity reps that you would not have seen here in the Motherland. Would you have gone to Simley otherwise? What other programs did you look at?
Quote from: getyourpoints on January 17, 2018, 05:17:21 PM
Quote from: DocWrestling on January 17, 2018, 11:54:13 AM
Quote from: A_little_birdy on January 17, 2018, 11:25:53 AM
They brought up reducing the number of weight classes to make it more competitive. Do you think that would raise numbers? I think some kids quit because they don't have a spot in the lineup, but it is sad to see all the holes in most lineups around the state. :( :( :(
I hate to say it but maybe switching the wrestling season to a fall/spring sport. Idk. It's tough competing with basketball.
More kids quit because they are thrown into the varsity lineup to early because there is a spot and others don't appreciate being on varsity because they did not have to earn it.
I think kids learn quite fast to not treasure or appreciate what is not earned. Look at youth wrestling and all the trophies and medals. The theory that we keep giving kids things and they will want it more and stick with it is just silly. If a kid earns one medal or trophy over a season he is going to treasure that. If he has an award from every single tournament then none of them really mean much. Varsity wrestling is like giving an award to everyone.
I honestly believe wrestling would have larger numbers if they had 10 varsity weight classes and then 10 different JV weight classes that skewed lighter since they should generally be younger kids. Competitions at both levels would be so much better.
Truth is that probably 90% duals have become boring and a waste of everyone's time. Everyone knows who is going to win the dual and everyone knows who is going to win the match.
Wrestling needs excitement and competitiveness at both varsity and JV levels
If that was true MN would be dropping rapidly with JHI??
Better coaches is and always will be the answer
Actually we are still waiting for how they are going to save Wisconsin wrestling with all the programs their group was developing....apparently transferring out is an option? I called BS immediately and was proven right.
Padre you are simply irrelevant.
But last year you said I should run the whole state junior high? Embarrassed? I would be. Missed? No.
Quote from: Queene Anne on January 18, 2018, 10:01:11 PM
Quote from: getyourpoints on January 18, 2018, 09:41:12 PM
Padre you are simply irrelevant.
Braggadocious claims and chest thumping on how you were going to save WI Wrestling is what has been irrelevant. Throwing $$$ around seemed to be more self serving than sport serving.
Unfortunately that was what it was the whole time. Those in the know knew this is probably how it would end up or an issue for whatever school had to house the egos. Luckily I dont think many or any drank the kool-aid. ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)