Wisconsin Wrestling Online

College and University Wrestling => Misc. Col./Univ./D1/Big 10/D2/D3/NAIA/JUCO => Topic started by: wrestler_73 on April 03, 2013, 07:11:44 PM

Title: Could not have said it better....
Post by: wrestler_73 on April 03, 2013, 07:11:44 PM
http://www.askrenbros.com/video/703312-Heads-Should-Be-Rolling
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Barou on April 03, 2013, 07:24:48 PM
http://www.askrenbros.com/video/703312-Heads-Should-Be-Rolling

+1
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: DocWrestling on April 03, 2013, 07:51:19 PM
I think this is the same for HS wrestling.  Literally, the head coach can no longer be the quiet technician.  The head coach needs to be the guy that thinks outside the box and finds ways to bring excitement to the wrestlers and fans.  He must be chief fundraiser and booster.  He then needs good assistants to do all the work that head coaches used to do.

Motivators and promotional experts with the outgoing personalities will make better head coaches these days than the quiet leader that knows everything there is to know about wrestling but cannot get anyone excited about it.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: The Twisted Moose on April 03, 2013, 08:05:58 PM
How about that screen saver in the background?  That might be the coolest thing I've seen in a long time.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Harris on April 03, 2013, 10:03:41 PM
Good video.  I agree that all the little things on and off the mat make a difference in putting fans in the seats and building a program.  As I have written before:

1.  Summer camps help recruiting and help the state of wrestling - get the camps ramped up to get the best wrestlers wanting to come during the summer.  Day camps are not worth it.  You need to go back to overnight camps in the dorms with the UW wrestlers and alumni as counselors.  They should be present at each session if possible.  The young kids would love this.  End the camp with a tournament.
2.  Hold a coaching clinic each year similar to the Wisconsin Football Coaches Association.  Make it worthwhile for the state coaches to come to Madison.  Help them become better coaches and it will help you by building support.
3.  Invite wrestling teams through the high school coaching staff to come watch a dual meet and make it an experience for the team.  This builds support and fans.  Give the high school team a tour of the facilities.  Have your redshirts give the tour.  Make sure the highschool team gets the royal treatment.
4.  Get the Badger coaching staff and athletes involved with the state wrestling tournament.  They should be visible and helping out.  Why can't they hand out medals?  Why can't they congratulate the athletes on the podium? 
5.  Get the Wisconsin Program in the state wrestling program and on the scoreboard during the finals.  Make a cool video that can play during state.  Put a cool write up in the program. etc......

I could go on and on but you get the point.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Ghetto on April 04, 2013, 12:36:28 AM
How about that screen saver in the background?  That might be the coolest thing I've seen in a long time.

Comes with every Apple computer.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Ghetto on April 04, 2013, 12:37:33 AM
Good video.  I agree that all the little things on and off the mat make a difference in putting fans in the seats and building a program.  As I have written before:

1.  Summer camps help recruiting and help the state of wrestling - get the camps ramped up to get the best wrestlers wanting to come during the summer.  Day camps are not worth it.  You need to go back to overnight camps in the dorms with the UW wrestlers and alumni as counselors.  They should be present at each session if possible.  The young kids would love this.  End the camp with a tournament.
2.  Hold a coaching clinic each year similar to the Wisconsin Football Coaches Association.  Make it worthwhile for the state coaches to come to Madison.  Help them become better coaches and it will help you by building support.
3.  Invite wrestling teams through the high school coaching staff to come watch a dual meet and make it an experience for the team.  This builds support and fans.  Give the high school team a tour of the facilities.  Have your redshirts give the tour.  Make sure the highschool team gets the royal treatment.
4.  Get the Badger coaching staff and athletes involved with the state wrestling tournament.  They should be visible and helping out.  Why can't they hand out medals?  Why can't they congratulate the athletes on the podium? 
5.  Get the Wisconsin Program in the state wrestling program and on the scoreboard during the finals.  Make a cool video that can play during state.  Put a cool write up in the program. etc......

I could go on and on but you get the point.

+1
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Todd on April 04, 2013, 12:42:14 AM
Good video.  I agree that all the little things on and off the mat make a difference in putting fans in the seats and building a program.  As I have written before:

1.  Summer camps help recruiting and help the state of wrestling - get the camps ramped up to get the best wrestlers wanting to come during the summer.  Day camps are not worth it.  You need to go back to overnight camps in the dorms with the UW wrestlers and alumni as counselors.  They should be present at each session if possible.  The young kids would love this.  End the camp with a tournament.
2.  Hold a coaching clinic each year similar to the Wisconsin Football Coaches Association.  Make it worthwhile for the state coaches to come to Madison.  Help them become better coaches and it will help you by building support.
3.  Invite wrestling teams through the high school coaching staff to come watch a dual meet and make it an experience for the team.  This builds support and fans.  Give the high school team a tour of the facilities.  Have your redshirts give the tour.  Make sure the highschool team gets the royal treatment.
4.  Get the Badger coaching staff and athletes involved with the state wrestling tournament.  They should be visible and helping out.  Why can't they hand out medals?  Why can't they congratulate the athletes on the podium? 
5.  Get the Wisconsin Program in the state wrestling program and on the scoreboard during the finals.  Make a cool video that can play during state.  Put a cool write up in the program. etc......

I could go on and on but you get the point.

All great ideas.  Hope someone there at UW is listening.  I think if you look at Ben's points you could point to UW as one of the programs that isn't getting it done in many of those ways. 
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: dad 2 5 on April 04, 2013, 08:10:52 AM
Good video.  I agree that all the little things on and off the mat make a difference in putting fans in the seats and building a program.  As I have written before:

1.  Summer camps help recruiting and help the state of wrestling - get the camps ramped up to get the best wrestlers wanting to come during the summer.  Day camps are not worth it.  You need to go back to overnight camps in the dorms with the UW wrestlers and alumni as counselors.  They should be present at each session if possible.  The young kids would love this.  End the camp with a tournament.
2.  Hold a coaching clinic each year similar to the Wisconsin Football Coaches Association.  Make it worthwhile for the state coaches to come to Madison.  Help them become better coaches and it will help you by building support.
3.  Invite wrestling teams through the high school coaching staff to come watch a dual meet and make it an experience for the team.  This builds support and fans.  Give the high school team a tour of the facilities.  Have your redshirts give the tour.  Make sure the highschool team gets the royal treatment.
4.  Get the Badger coaching staff and athletes involved with the state wrestling tournament.  They should be visible and helping out.  Why can't they hand out medals?  Why can't they congratulate the athletes on the podium? 
5.  Get the Wisconsin Program in the state wrestling program and on the scoreboard during the finals.  Make a cool video that can play during state.  Put a cool write up in the program. etc......

I could go on and on but you get the point.
All great points but
1) The ran them but I think there were more kids from a FL team then WI. Attendance was low and that is why they are trying to reach out to clubs and HS teams this summer.
2) They do have the one small wrestle off afternoon meeting
3) I know they would be open to this. The guys (wrestlers and coaches) are hands on after each home meet
4) kind of tough when they are at NCAA or gearing up for it
5) like the idea a lot!

There is a lot of work that needs to be done between the UW; clubs; HS; WI Wrestling club, etc. Maybe Trevor will get on and address some of them.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: head57 on April 04, 2013, 08:59:52 AM
Good video.  I agree that all the little things on and off the mat make a difference in putting fans in the seats and building a program.  As I have written before:

1.  Summer camps help recruiting and help the state of wrestling - get the camps ramped up to get the best wrestlers wanting to come during the summer.  Day camps are not worth it.  You need to go back to overnight camps in the dorms with the UW wrestlers and alumni as counselors.  They should be present at each session if possible.  The young kids would love this.  End the camp with a tournament.
2.  Hold a coaching clinic each year similar to the Wisconsin Football Coaches Association.  Make it worthwhile for the state coaches to come to Madison.  Help them become better coaches and it will help you by building support.
3.  Invite wrestling teams through the high school coaching staff to come watch a dual meet and make it an experience for the team.  This builds support and fans.  Give the high school team a tour of the facilities.  Have your redshirts give the tour.  Make sure the highschool team gets the royal treatment.
4.  Get the Badger coaching staff and athletes involved with the state wrestling tournament.  They should be visible and helping out.  Why can't they hand out medals?  Why can't they congratulate the athletes on the podium? 
5.  Get the Wisconsin Program in the state wrestling program and on the scoreboard during the finals.  Make a cool video that can play during state.  Put a cool write up in the program. etc......

I could go on and on but you get the point.

All great ideas.  Hope someone there at UW is listening.  I think if you look at Ben's points you could point to UW as one of the programs that isn't getting it done in many of those ways. 

Pure speculation, but by looking into some of the things he said, I think Ben had UW at the forefront of his thoughts while he delivering these thoughts.

Again, purely speculation.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: dman on April 04, 2013, 10:54:08 AM
Great video Ben!!  Couldn't agree more!
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: leg turk on April 04, 2013, 11:14:12 AM
Anybody have Barry Alvarez's email address?
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: buc65 on April 04, 2013, 01:54:53 PM
Here is a good article regarding BU dropping their program from a wrestling alum.

http://dailyfreepress.com/2013/04/03/ghosts-of-editors-past-bu-alums-view-on-why-bu-should-keep-wrestling/

Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Handles II on April 04, 2013, 04:35:47 PM
Has Ben applied for many D1 coaching positions?
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Gutwrench on April 04, 2013, 05:37:32 PM
Has Ben applied for many D1 coaching positions?


I don't know, but I'd be very intrigued in giving him a shot.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: hammen on April 04, 2013, 05:45:36 PM
I imagine it would be difficult with just becoming a father and continuing his MMA dominance. I would never doubt Ben though, he dominates in most everything he does. He would be great to have in any college room. I really like what he's doing developing Southeast WI wrestling right now, so I selfishly hope that he continues that course for the next few years. I think it could be an inevitable career path though (him being a head coach and bringing a program to the top).
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Scourge on April 04, 2013, 06:51:44 PM
Good video.  I agree that all the little things on and off the mat make a difference in putting fans in the seats and building a program.  As I have written before:

1.  Summer camps help recruiting and help the state of wrestling - get the camps ramped up to get the best wrestlers wanting to come during the summer.  Day camps are not worth it.  You need to go back to overnight camps in the dorms with the UW wrestlers and alumni as counselors.  They should be present at each session if possible.  The young kids would love this.  End the camp with a tournament.
2.  Hold a coaching clinic each year similar to the Wisconsin Football Coaches Association.  Make it worthwhile for the state coaches to come to Madison.  Help them become better coaches and it will help you by building support.
3.  Invite wrestling teams through the high school coaching staff to come watch a dual meet and make it an experience for the team.  This builds support and fans.  Give the high school team a tour of the facilities.  Have your redshirts give the tour.  Make sure the highschool team gets the royal treatment.
4.  Get the Badger coaching staff and athletes involved with the state wrestling tournament.  They should be visible and helping out.  Why can't they hand out medals?  Why can't they congratulate the athletes on the podium? 
5.  Get the Wisconsin Program in the state wrestling program and on the scoreboard during the finals.  Make a cool video that can play during state.  Put a cool write up in the program. etc......

I could go on and on but you get the point.

All great ideas.  Hope someone there at UW is listening.  I think if you look at Ben's points you could point to UW as one of the programs that isn't getting it done in many of those ways. 



I don't think it was very subtle(and I don't think it was intended to be when he specifically lays out how he goes to forums and hears "wait until next year") that he was directly referencing Wisconsin.  Talking about how long a coach has been there, how they're complacent.  And there is obviously some friction or animosity still left there.


I just want to know how are we supposed to know from afar what coaches are doing a good job?  What's the criteria?  Taking Wisconsin out of it for a second, is Northwestern meating their criteria?  Should the Michigan schools fire their coaches?  The Indiana schools?   
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: dman on April 05, 2013, 11:21:53 AM
I thought Ben did a good job at explaining what he thought were some of the criteria to evaluate coaches on in terms of the overall sustainability of wrestling at the collegiate level and all levels really.  He did a good job of saying it is not solely on wins and loses, even though that is a big part.  He indicated that coaches should be promoting the sport, fund raising, getting fan and sponsor support, improving each and every year, recruiting in state kids and top talent, visibility at the high schcool level in their state, larger schools helping the smaller state schools and supporting them, etc......and also he feels we all are responsible too, to hold these coaches to those standards and be very vocal, critical, and not support teams blindly.  I personally agree with everything he said.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Miltown grappler on April 05, 2013, 12:56:33 PM
Yes, I absolutely agree with everything Ben is saying.  Some of our better high school programs understand this better than most of our college programs in the state.  

In regards to Wisconsin....we are obviously lacking in almost every area of what is considered a top notch program.  The assistant coaches can help with this...but it must be led by the head coach-especially the vision for what it should be in regards to public relations, building relationships with high school programs, recruiting, making a dual an event that people want to see and not expecting people to come just because they should.  Unfortunately the reasons to drop the program in Boston could very easily be applied to our Badger program.

My e-mail of concern has been sent to Barry Alvarez

Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Scourge on April 05, 2013, 03:42:24 PM
I thought Ben did a good job at explaining what he thought were some of the criteria to evaluate coaches on in terms of the overall sustainability of wrestling at the collegiate level and all levels really.  He did a good job of saying it is not solely on wins and loses, even though that is a big part.  He indicated that coaches should be promoting the sport, fund raising, getting fan and sponsor support, improving each and every year, recruiting in state kids and top talent, visibility at the high schcool level in their state, larger schools helping the smaller state schools and supporting them, etc......and also he feels we all are responsible too, to hold these coaches to those standards and be very vocal, critical, and not support teams blindly.  I personally agree with everything he said.


Yes, I saw the video dman, my point was all of those criteria(some of which I didn't hear him say) are vague.  "Promoting the sport?"  I didn't see him say they have to "improve each and every year," which frankly isn't realistic.  "Recruiting the states top in-state talent?"  How are we to know every wrestler he's recruiting?  What we know is who he gets.  Larger schools supporting smaller schools? 

He would certainly know more than me about the situation in Buffalo, but we're just going to say that their coach got lazy, complacent and essentially bored after 32 years and it's his fault that a program got cut?  Too many programs have gotten cut for me to just dump the blame on a coach that I have never heard of before and I doubt MOST on this board had never heard of before either. 

I agree, coaches should be trying to promote their sport, they should try raise funds...they should try to get the top wrestlers in the state..in theory.  Obviously it's not that easy to do that.  Tim Hartung, Tyler Baer, Stephen Monk are three examples of National Champs, Finalists or highly ranked wrestlers right there that obviously far exceeded expectations.   

So yeah, all these coaches should all be trying to do these things.  But this seemed to be pointed at one program in particular, and if HE feels that people should be calling for "heads to roll," then with all due respect, he should be calling for those heads to roll himself.  Obviously he had at least ONE coach in mind. 

My problem and it's been my problem all along is that by constantly belaboring the point on the internet(this is about this site and the Badgers, not so much about the video right now) on a forum like this is you're not helping the program, you're only hurting it.  You're not encouraging a kid like Breske or Sharenbrock to go to Wisconsin, you're on here talking about how terrible Barry Davis is rather than sending the message to the AD's.

Wrestling will never have a fan base like FB or BB, so the "outcry," so fans complaining on messages boards will almost certainly never be seen by the people who matter.  But again, it is seen by the best kids in the state and it certainly doesn't further Wisconsin wrestling IMO.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: dad 2 5 on April 05, 2013, 03:53:46 PM
1
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: dman on April 05, 2013, 04:48:28 PM
I thought Ben did a good job at explaining what he thought were some of the criteria to evaluate coaches on in terms of the overall sustainability of wrestling at the collegiate level and all levels really.  He did a good job of saying it is not solely on wins and loses, even though that is a big part.  He indicated that coaches should be promoting the sport, fund raising, getting fan and sponsor support, improving each and every year, recruiting in state kids and top talent, visibility at the high schcool level in their state, larger schools helping the smaller state schools and supporting them, etc......and also he feels we all are responsible too, to hold these coaches to those standards and be very vocal, critical, and not support teams blindly.  I personally agree with everything he said.


Yes, I saw the video dman, my point was all of those criteria(some of which I didn't hear him say) are vague.  "Promoting the sport?"  I didn't see him say they have to "improve each and every year," which frankly isn't realistic.  "Recruiting the states top in-state talent?"  How are we to know every wrestler he's recruiting?  What we know is who he gets.  Larger schools supporting smaller schools?  

He would certainly know more than me about the situation in Buffalo, but we're just going to say that their coach got lazy, complacent and essentially bored after 32 years and it's his fault that a program got cut?  Too many programs have gotten cut for me to just dump the blame on a coach that I have never heard of before and I doubt MOST on this board had never heard of before either.  

I agree, coaches should be trying to promote their sport, they should try raise funds...they should try to get the top wrestlers in the state..in theory.  Obviously it's not that easy to do that.  Tim Hartung, Tyler Baer, Stephen Monk are three examples of National Champs, Finalists or highly ranked wrestlers right there that obviously far exceeded expectations.  

So yeah, all these coaches should all be trying to do these things.  But this seemed to be pointed at one program in particular, and if HE feels that people should be calling for "heads to roll," then with all due respect, he should be calling for those heads to roll himself.  Obviously he had at least ONE coach in mind.  

My problem and it's been my problem all along is that by constantly belaboring the point on the internet(this is about this site and the Badgers, not so much about the video right now) on a forum like this is you're not helping the program, you're only hurting it.  You're not encouraging a kid like Breske or Sharenbrock to go to Wisconsin, you're on here talking about how terrible Barry Davis is rather than sending the message to the AD's.
Wrestling will never have a fan base like FB or BB, so the "outcry," so fans complaining on messages boards will almost certainly never be seen by the people who matter.  But again, it is seen by the best kids in the state and it certainly doesn't further Wisconsin wrestling IMO.

Ummm....sorry if you took my post personal as it really wasn't directed at you at all scrouge.  You said you wanted to know what criteria should be used to evaluate coaches....I said that I got what those were form Ben's video, and if you didn't, well than that is you, I could really care less.  My opinion is that Ben is right on with what he says and I agree with what I took away from as how coaches should be evaluated.  

And if you are going to make the leap that I am on a forum like this talking about how terrible Barry Davis is....I would like for you to pull any post in this thread or any thread this year which I have said such a thing?  I wasn't even thinking about Barry Davis when I wrote what I wrote, but I do think that he in addition to all coaches should be evaluated and critiqued based of what Ben indicates.  And if THAT is going to keep guys like Breske and Sharenbrock from going to the UW....well you are entitled to your opinion there scroogy....but I am truly hoping you don't really feel that way??  Have you ever read the Penn St. boards??  Iowa boards?? Go read those and then come back here and tell me that anything anyone is saying on here is going to keep us from getting star recruits.  To me your attitude is exactly what Ben is talking about.....you go be complacent scroogy...that is your perogative....but I always live by the saying....the definition of stupid/crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result......so keep doing the same thing over and over there buddy!  
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: MNbadger on April 05, 2013, 05:11:10 PM
While I respect Ben's opinion there are some things to be said.
1) Programs get cut all the time that are successful (U of Nebraska Omaha) ONO was successful competitively and financially and nearly ran in the black.  They were multiple National Champs and were cut the evening of winning a back to back NC.
2) I am not the biggest Barry fan in the world but he deserves some respect.  He has had his successes(Pritzlaff himself is one of Barry's successes). 
3) As someone mentioned before, is Northwestern's coach worthless?  Is Indiana's coach worthless?  I think not.  Sometimes you do everything right and it still doesn't work, for many reasons.  Yes, I've been there.  We did everything the successful programs do.  We were unafraid to copy the successful programs. We worked very hard, it was my life. Some times the situation is what it is.
4) Lastly, (and I know I'll get heat for saying this) at what college does Ben coach?????????????????????
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: billymurphy on April 05, 2013, 10:31:25 PM
Ben has been a coach at Missouri and Arizona State and helped coach 2 national champions wrestlers at Arizona State and 1 national champion at Missouri if I am not mistaken.  Pretty darn good track record and it did not take 18 years to do it.

Attendance numbers are not vague.  WI has not had good attendance numbers the last two years to say it nicely.  However, I think Thielke is going to change all that as people will want to see him and the team should be loaded with a good number of quality seniors.  With the exception of Graff, WI fell apart towards the end of this past year.  WI should improve greatly over our 10th place big ten finish. The top five teams may be too much for the Badgers but you have to figure Michigan will redshirt their four blue chip recruits leaving the Big Ten Tournament standings:
1. Penn State
2. Minnesota
3. Iowa
4. Ohio State
5. Illinois
6. WI/Nebraska/Northwestern/Michigan/Purdue fighting it out for sixth place.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: MNbadger on April 05, 2013, 10:46:49 PM
So Ben was an assistant coach and had two at ASU and one at Mizz, admirable.  I would say if a group of individuals hadn't bailed on Barry, he would have done quite well the last couple of years.  This would have made his "track record" pretty darned good.  He is a Head Coach, not an assistant (these are two very different positions).
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Todd on April 05, 2013, 11:20:23 PM
Has Ben applied for many D1 coaching positions?


Ben was working with AZ St. but I think his Olympic aspirations then took priority.  I think Ben's a little busy with his MMA career to apply for a DI program but maybe it's in his future when he's done competing.  Ben has been at the top of everything he's at and if he wanted to be a DI coach I'm sure he'd be given the chance and do well with it. 
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Todd on April 05, 2013, 11:23:45 PM
I imagine it would be difficult with just becoming a father and continuing his MMA dominance. I would never doubt Ben though, he dominates in most everything he does. He would be great to have in any college room. I really like what he's doing developing Southeast WI wrestling right now, so I selfishly hope that he continues that course for the next few years. I think it could be an inevitable career path though (him being a head coach and bringing a program to the top).

I think with the success of his academy, collegiate wrestling, if Ben decides to coach he'll be able to write his own ticket.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Barou on April 05, 2013, 11:50:47 PM
So Ben was an assistant coach and had two at ASU and one at Mizz, admirable.  I would say if a group of individuals hadn't bailed on Barry, he would have done quite well the last couple of years.  This would have made his "track record" pretty darned good.  He is a Head Coach, not an assistant (these are two very different positions).

They bailed because of Barry not on Barry.  Barry's average finish is in the 17-18 area. If ben gets a hc job I guarantee he will have better results. If he got the wisconsin job, I bet he averages in the top 10.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: MNbadger on April 06, 2013, 11:12:40 AM
There is no way of knowing what Ben would do.  It is just speculation. 
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Dale Einerson on April 06, 2013, 12:57:00 PM

3) As someone mentioned before, is Northwestern's coach worthless?  Is Indiana's coach worthless?  I think not.  Sometimes you do everything right and it still doesn't work, for many reasons.  Yes, I've been there.  We did everything the successful programs do.  We were unafraid to copy the successful programs. We worked very hard, it was my life. Some times the situation is what it is.
Northwestern, considering their academic reputation, has been a huge success in wrestling and athletics in general.  If WI were a top tier school there'd be little to criticize, but WI academics vs. Northwestern academics doesn't even compare.  I mean there are some rankings that have Northwestern at number 1 in the nation in academics.  Indiana?  There's not much of a wrestling tradition in that basketball state.  Wisconsin has higher standards than that.  We should be one of the top 5 states (and Universities) in wrestling year in and year out.

To say Wisconsin doesn't compare as a top tier University is not fair or accurate.  Depends on the program, but business, generally top 20-25 in national rankings, engineering, top 10-15, for example.  The difference in the top 20-25 is not as great as some might imagine either, but Wisconsin is definitely a top tier university nationally speaking.

Can't say I would base a hire on whether an candidate was from Minnesota, Michigan, Wisconsin, MIT, Rice, Standford, Harvard or Northwestern...would base it on the individual.  And anybody that goes through any of these academic programs and does well has proven a great deal.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Barou on April 06, 2013, 01:19:24 PM
There is no way of knowing what Ben would do.  It is just speculation. 

No kidding. Any prediction for anyone not holding a hc position would be speculation. My reasons for my predictions:

Is a bigger name than Barry and most other hc's.
Will recruit the blue-chip wrestlers in wisconsin. He has already recruited more nc's out of wisconsin than Barry (max) to Missouri.
Will improve marketing of the sport.
Has coaching experience at the college level and is still involved in the sport.
Will be more visible in wisconsin (appearances and video)
Results will be better
Attendance will be better

Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Dale Einerson on April 06, 2013, 01:48:11 PM
Dale, I was just referring to the nominclature that US News and World Report uses in ranking colleges and universities.  Typically the top 25 schools are considered tier 1 and so on and so forth.  Doesn't mean Wisconsin is a sub-par school, just that Northwestern is a tier 1 school, and Wisconsin is a tier 2 school according to US News and World Report.

Understood, that is one ranking.  There are many rankings that do not put Wisconsin on a different tier other than the top 1. 
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: padre on April 07, 2013, 02:25:58 AM
So Ben was an assistant coach and had two at ASU and one at Mizz, admirable.  I would say if a group of individuals hadn't bailed on Barry, he would have done quite well the last couple of years.  This would have made his "track record" pretty darned good.  He is a Head Coach, not an assistant (these are two very different positions).


And this wasn't speculation?

Do you honestly believe if Ben were coach for the UW it wouldn't bring tons of excitement?  I know that is not in the cards at this time but to say this isn't fact is just wrong.

Ben puts himself out there....most are afraid to do that.  Part of the reason he was not as heavily recruited at some schools we have been told.  Love him or hate him he has brought results everywhere he has gone.  Even when coaching his kids(club) at tournaments you can see how much he cares and the passion for the sport.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: JAMMIN on April 07, 2013, 02:12:13 PM
So Ben was an assistant coach and had two at ASU and one at Mizz, admirable.  I would say if a group of individuals hadn't bailed on Barry, he would have done quite well the last couple of years.  This would have made his "track record" pretty darned good.  He is a Head Coach, not an assistant (these are two very different positions).

Why the heck do you think these coaches and wrestlers bailed?  They weren't happy with how the program was being run and saw better opportunities.  You do realize that the top recruits didn't come because of Barry, right?
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Badger_Fan on April 07, 2013, 03:06:01 PM
So Ben was an assistant coach and had two at ASU and one at Mizz, admirable.  I would say if a group of individuals hadn't bailed on Barry, he would have done quite well the last couple of years.  This would have made his "track record" pretty darned good.  He is a Head Coach, not an assistant (these are two very different positions).

Why the heck do you think these coaches and wrestlers bailed?  They weren't happy with how the program was being run and saw better opportunities.  You do realize that the top recruits didn't come because of Barry, right?

Yeah, they came in spite of him ...
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: dad 2 5 on April 07, 2013, 03:09:16 PM
Back to the same silly stuff on the forum. I like the point of the harm being done as recruits read this junk. You would think that in the UW section that there would be more positive view of the program and school. Maybe those of us that are Badger fan should go to the other forums (MN; MI; IL; Iowa...) and try to stir up junk, granted that is pretty tough to do for MN and Iowa but they to have lost top guys to other programs.
I am glad to see Barry, Trevor and the team moving the program forward.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Scourge on April 07, 2013, 04:24:27 PM
So Ben was an assistant coach and had two at ASU and one at Mizz, admirable.  I would say if a group of individuals hadn't bailed on Barry, he would have done quite well the last couple of years.  This would have made his "track record" pretty darned good.  He is a Head Coach, not an assistant (these are two very different positions).

Why the heck do you think these coaches and wrestlers bailed?  They weren't happy with how the program was being run and saw better opportunities.  You do realize that the top recruits didn't come because of Barry, right?

Yeah, they came in spite of him ...


Really?  Is that what Destin McCauley told you? 

Did Donny come "in spite," of Barry?
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Scourge on April 07, 2013, 04:34:54 PM
Back to the same silly stuff on the forum. I like the point of the harm being done as recruits read this junk. You would think that in the UW section that there would be more positive view of the program and school. Maybe those of us that are Badger fan should go to the other forums (MN; MI; IL; Iowa...) and try to stir up junk, granted that is pretty tough to do for MN and Iowa but they to have lost top guys to other programs.
I am glad to see Barry, Trevor and the team moving the program forward.

They definitely are in the future and they're really are re-building a very competitive team for the future. 
You lose assistant coaches, usually the people who are primarily responsible for the recruiting, you're usually going to lose of the recruits along with them, however our assistant coaches are certainly showing they're capable of bringing in talent and get this team back to where it was supposed to be the past two years. 

But I've come to the conclusion that those who continually bash the program on THIS forum aren't doing it because "they won't accept," fill in whatever puffed out chest type line you want to as it's obviously doing nothing whatsoever to help the program and only to hurt it. 
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Badger_Fan on April 07, 2013, 06:03:28 PM
So Ben was an assistant coach and had two at ASU and one at Mizz, admirable.  I would say if a group of individuals hadn't bailed on Barry, he would have done quite well the last couple of years.  This would have made his "track record" pretty darned good.  He is a Head Coach, not an assistant (these are two very different positions).

Why the heck do you think these coaches and wrestlers bailed?  They weren't happy with how the program was being run and saw better opportunities.  You do realize that the top recruits didn't come because of Barry, right?

Yeah, they came in spite of him ...


Really?  Is that what Destin McCauley told you? 

Did Donny come "in spite," of Barry?

What is the notation for sarcasm? 
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: dman on April 07, 2013, 08:57:13 PM
Curious for some of you on here......and I know this has been asked before but some refuse to answer...so dad 2 5 and scrouge....what would have to happen for you guys to ever feel there should be a change to the head coach of the badgers?  And I am not trying to stir the pot either....but a serious question.

Also, do you guys think that some posters should not be allowed on the forum cause they feel that the badgers need a new head coach?  Should the forum be only for complete supporters of Barry and those who do not have any criticisms of the program and lack of success?  What about where you guys work....should employee's not bring forth criticism if they think things are not going well and could be done different?  Again....serious questions?

Personally I think it only makes things stronger within the program to have those who are critical.  I believe it forces people to rethink about how things are being done and maybe....just maybe....things will change. 
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Badger_Fan on April 07, 2013, 09:26:07 PM
Curious for some of you on here......and I know this has been asked before but some refuse to answer...so dad 2 5 and scrouge....what would have to happen for you guys to ever feel there should be a change to the head coach of the badgers?  And I am not trying to stir the pot either....but a serious question.

Also, do you guys think that some posters should not be allowed on the forum cause they feel that the badgers need a new head coach?  Should the forum be only for complete supporters of Barry and those who do not have any criticisms of the program and lack of success?  What about where you guys work....should employee's not bring forth criticism if they think things are not going well and could be done different?  Again....serious questions?

Personally I think it only makes things stronger within the program to have those who are critical.  I believe it forces people to rethink about how things are being done and maybe....just maybe....things will change. 

It's one thing to be critical - it's another to be critical on a forum.  Also, it's much different being critical and not willing to do anything about it beyond just griping on a forum. 

Again, the problem with so many of the arguments to "fire Barry" are they are unprovable - if a new coach was here, so and so would have stayed, came here, and won a national title by now, had this, had that ... none of which is provable.  Much easier to say and argue those points. 
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: hammen on April 07, 2013, 09:29:13 PM
Curious for some of you on here......and I know this has been asked before but some refuse to answer...so dad 2 5 and scrouge....what would have to happen for you guys to ever feel there should be a change to the head coach of the badgers?  And I am not trying to stir the pot either....but a serious question.

Also, do you guys think that some posters should not be allowed on the forum cause they feel that the badgers need a new head coach?  Should the forum be only for complete supporters of Barry and those who do not have any criticisms of the program and lack of success?  What about where you guys work....should employee's not bring forth criticism if they think things are not going well and could be done different?  Again....serious questions?

Personally I think it only makes things stronger within the program to have those who are critical.  I believe it forces people to rethink about how things are being done and maybe....just maybe....things will change.  

What would you say to a kid who was thinking about committing to UW for wrestling right now? Would you be negative about the program to him? Tell him that the head coach is awful and needs to go? Or would you support him and say it would be a good thing to be a badger and help it get to the top? If you are truly a badger fan and want the program to improve, I would hope you choose the latter. Nothing good would ever come of telling the prospect that UW wrestling is going nowhere under Barry and the staff. If you are supportive of the kid's decision or consideration of UW, then why come on here and call for the coaches head? What does that accomplish? If you really feel that Barry needs to go, voice your opinion to the person who makes that decision. That's the only way to actively go about doing something. Coming on here does and saying that our coaching sucks does nothing but hurt the program (with prospects potentially reading the posts). It's comparable to sitting with other associates at your work and complaining about your superior being a bad manager. It does nothing - it only hurts the attitudes of your peers and those who overhear your blabber. The only way you get anything do is going a step above and voicing your concern to someone with authority to make a change. If this is how you approach criticizing or evaluating a superior in real life (complaining to your peers and those below you), that's too bad.

Most people on here aren't critical in a productive way. I guarantee that the coaching staff and the team are very critical of themselves and are not even close to satisfied with where they finished this year. I have faith that they will continue to grow and achieve more successes each year. I've witnessed and experienced that process under Barry before, and I'm confident that it will happen again with this staff and team.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: woody53 on April 07, 2013, 09:40:29 PM
What would you say to a kid who was thinking about committing to UW for wrestling right now? Would you be negative about the program to him? Tell him that the head coach is awful and needs to go? Or would you support him and say it would be a good thing to be a badger and help it get to the top? If you are truly a badger fan and want the program to improve, I would hope you choose the latter. Nothing good would ever come of telling the prospect that UW wrestling is going nowhere under Barry and the staff. If you are supportive of the kid's decision or consideration of UW, then why come on here and call for the coaches head? What does that accomplish? If you really feel that Barry needs to go, voice your opinion to the person who makes that decision. That's the only way to actively go about doing something. Coming on here does and saying that our coaching sucks does nothing but hurt the program (with prospects potentially reading the posts). It's comparable to sitting with other associates at your work and complaining about your superior being a bad manager. It does nothing - it only hurts the attitudes of your peers and those who overhear your blabber. The only way you get anything do is going a step above and voicing your concern to someone with authority to make a change. If this is how you approach criticizing or evaluating a superior in real life (complaining to your peers and those below you), that's too bad.

Most people on here aren't critical in a productive way. I guarantee that the coaching staff and the team are very critical of themselves and are not even close to satisfied with where they finished this year. I have faith that they will continue to grow and achieve more successes each year. I've witnessed and experienced that process under Barry before, and I'm confident that it will happen again with this staff and team.
Great post Drew.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: MNbadger on April 07, 2013, 10:24:17 PM
Yes, What are some specifics as to why you wouldn't want your son or a wrestler you coach going to UW?
Padre... I doubt Ben has more enthusiasm for the sport than Barry.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: BuckyMatt on April 07, 2013, 11:19:20 PM
Curious for some of you on here......and I know this has been asked before but some refuse to answer...so dad 2 5 and scrouge....what would have to happen for you guys to ever feel there should be a change to the head coach of the badgers?  And I am not trying to stir the pot either....but a serious question.

Also, do you guys think that some posters should not be allowed on the forum cause they feel that the badgers need a new head coach?  Should the forum be only for complete supporters of Barry and those who do not have any criticisms of the program and lack of success?  What about where you guys work....should employee's not bring forth criticism if they think things are not going well and could be done different?  Again....serious questions?

Personally I think it only makes things stronger within the program to have those who are critical.  I believe it forces people to rethink about how things are being done and maybe....just maybe....things will change. 

Great questions Dman.  I personally think all should be allowed on this forum, both Barry Fans and those that want him replaced.  I agree that being critical and questioning directions can make things stronger.  However, as many have pointed out and how Drew articulated, it's only going to hurt the program when the conversation is more centered on "Barry Sucks", "Donny did all the work" type negativity as opposed to positive criticism (oxymoron alert) such as we need different marketing, we need to get more fans in the seats, etc.

I think there is a place here for all fans and I honestly respect all others opinions.  Drew is right though, if you want to complain productively, just like in the real world, reach out to Alvarez directly, not people underneath him who have no decision making ability.  I think even Ben A agreed on this.

-M Deadman
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: badgerjohn on April 08, 2013, 12:09:30 AM
...................It's comparable to sitting with other associates at your work and complaining about your superior being a bad manager. It does nothing - it only hurts the attitudes of your peers and those who overhear your blabber. The only way you get anything do is going a step above and voicing your concern to someone with authority to make a change. If this is how you approach criticizing or evaluating a superior in real life (complaining to your peers and those below you), that's too bad.................

I could take that a step further.  Would you complain to your own customers?  To your prospects?
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: billymurphy on April 08, 2013, 12:32:45 AM
Great post Hammen. You are a glass half full guy.

I personally thought Barry should have been fired 12 years ago and wanted him gone then.  I just never felt like Barry Davis had a clue of which WI wrestlers were actually college material or not.  It is bad enough to the point that I wonder if he even follows WI high school wrestling. It is very obvious that Brandvold does though so that is a major problem solved right there making Brandvold critical to the program's success.

 I think that people are clearly voicing their displeasure with program by not showing up to attend the matches the last two seasons.  I sure am not going to tell Barry Alvarez his business as he already locked Barry into a long term deal and no way he is going to break that no matter what anybody says.  

The positives of the program right now is that Brandvold is able to identify and recruit the top WI guys and is also is making good progress by recruiting good Illinois recruits.  Frankly with Thielke and Jordan and Taylor there is going to be some major upgrades to next years varsity lineup and I expect the crowds to at least triple next year which proves the theory, " if you build it they will come".    Dieringer set the bar high for Thielke.  Dieringer was an eyelash from winning a national title this season.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Numbers on April 08, 2013, 12:42:53 AM


Great questions Dman.  I personally think all should be allowed on this forum, both Barry Fans and those that want him replaced.  I agree that being critical and questioning directions can make things stronger.  However, as many have pointed out and how Drew articulated, it's only going to hurt the program when the conversation is more centered on "Barry Sucks", "Donny did all the work" type negativity as opposed to positive criticism (oxymoron alert) such as we need different marketing, we need to get more fans in the seats, etc.

I think there is a place here for all fans and I honestly respect all others opinions.  Drew is right though, if you want to complain productively, just like in the real world, reach out to Alvarez directly, not people underneath him who have no decision making ability.  I think even Ben A agreed on this.

-M Deadman
[/quote]

So it is fair to say that Barry Davis has not had the success of Dan Gable, John Smith, or Cael Sanderson.  How many other coaches have?  Many on the forum want UW to compete at the very top level as a team consistently which not many teams do.  Wisconsin has produced many individual AA under Barry Davis.  Yes DP was one of those AA.  Yes DP became an assistant coach and did his job to help bring some more AA wrestlers to UW.  Yes DP was part of UW taking a step backwards.  Yet Barry Davis still strives for excellence.  I believe it takes a team of solid coaches to have an elite program.  Now we are lucky to have Trevor Brandvold as an assistant coach and he is doing great from my perspective.

On a side note...If Ben Askren ever wanted to be part of a D1 coaching team either in his home state, Missouri, or some place else - I find it hard to believe the program would not be elevated.  Since I have not read the NCAA recruiting rulebook, I have no idea if his wrestling schools would be a conflict.

Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: padre on April 08, 2013, 02:20:42 AM
Yes, What are some specifics as to why you wouldn't want your son or a wrestler you coach going to UW?
Padre... I doubt Ben has more enthusiasm for the sport than Barry.


He promotes the sport much much more. Not even Badger camps to go to in Madison yet Ben can fill his own and has to put limitations on them.   

I know Barry is enthusiastic when his wrestlers are on the mat and am sure he is about the sport within the realm of the Badger wrestling room and team....but thats not putting butts in the seats.  Without promotion even the in-state kids generally don't have that hunger to be a Badger like kids want to be a Hawkeye, Gopher or Cowboy.

I am not a habitual Barry basher....just saying  much of the energy that is needed to promote the Badgers to in-state wrestlers and fans is not at minimum being used in a very productive manner.  Someone with Ben's intensity would make sure it was.  I am not asking for him to be the coach as it is not a reality....just saying I wish there was a bit more enthusiasm being spread out there....that being said I think Trevor is a person open to anything that could help the Badgers.

At some point for coaches they are not as inspired as they once were.   Whether one is a professional, high school, college or youth coach generally you start out on fire trying to do all you can to help your program and every year that little bit of luster fades.  This is why you have to surround yourself with fresh assistants and people in the program that assert themselves to promoting the sport and keeping it fresh in their athletes mind to inspire them to the top.  Much like they say winning is contagious, mediocrity and the allowing of it can also be.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: dman on April 08, 2013, 10:49:04 AM
I understand and respect the point people are trying to make and drew articulated.  However, not everyone is "close" enough to the program to reach out to BA or even BD.  And rightfully they probably shouldn't given the inability to properly articulate their criticisms and opinions in a professional way....hence the benefit of a public forum.  I worked for a company that created a company form for the employee's to post their feelings about certain corporate decisions and they were allowed to do it "anonymously".  It was great!  And my respect for the CEO/President for doing it.  There are a lot of good things that can be taken out of all the negative posts...of course you need to read through the unprofessionalism of some of the posts.....but the point is usually in there some where. 

But I still have to point out that some have not really answered my first question.....what is the criteria some of you would use (including you Drew  :) ) where you all would feel there is a need for a change?

And as for if I would want my kid to wrestle for the UW.....man that would be awesome if he was ever good enough to have that opportunity!  :)  If he was....at this point...and to be honest....I am not sure if I would or not.  I think Trevor is absolutely great for the program; however, my son may have better opportunities and success at another university....but ultimately it would be my son's decision.  And if he chose UW I would support him 100%.  Sort of like I support the badgers 100% even if I am critical of some of the things that have happened, or haven't happened.  :)  I still continue to donate to the UW and the wrestling program, still attend meets when I can, still follow the wrestlers and root them on, etc.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Coach N.Ryan on April 08, 2013, 10:52:38 AM
Yes, What are some specifics as to why you wouldn't want your son or a wrestler you coach going to UW?
Padre... I doubt Ben has more enthusiasm for the sport than Barry.


IMO Ben is one of the leading advocates in our state/country for wrestling. I think it would be difficult to say that one person has more or less "enthusiasm" for the sport than another. I think they both are both influential to the sport of wrestling, but if you ask a non wrestler who Barry Davis is, the majority of the people do not know. IF you ask them who Ben Askren is, they usually  and know something about his camps, his national dominance in wrestling (espy candidate), his podcasts, his mma success or something to that extent. I think Ben does a great job as an "enthusiast" of our sport. This is a compliment to Ben, not a bash on Barry.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: MNbadger on April 08, 2013, 11:12:55 AM
Is the UW and/or Barry failing Graff, Medberry, etc.?
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: thedecider on April 08, 2013, 11:18:37 AM
Is the UW and/or Barry failing Graff, Medberry, etc.?

Maybe, Graff has yet to win a national title and Medberry was not an all-american this year.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: dman on April 08, 2013, 11:24:30 AM
Is the UW and/or Barry failing Graff, Medberry, etc.?

So is this an answer to my question.....you feel that the UW has not failed Graff cause he is a three time all american, and UW has not failed Medberry cause he had a great year?  If either one had had a bad year then that would have been your criteria that a change is needed at the UW?
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: MNbadger on April 08, 2013, 11:36:22 AM
Absolutely not but the program seems to be working for them.  There are wrestlers who come to Minnesota and don't cut it, wrestlers whom others think are "sure things" to be the next 2 X NC and so on.  They don't cut it for what ever reason, and there are many. 
I do think Barry and UW could produce more enthusiasm for wrestling in the state by developing some kind of camp along the lines of J's Intensive Camps.  You have to get the kids to buy in.  Other than that, I think Barry does a great job. 
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: BuckyMatt on April 08, 2013, 01:44:41 PM


But I still have to point out that some have not really answered my first question.....what is the criteria some of you would use (including you Drew  :) ) where you all would feel there is a need for a change?


I would say that my criteria for replacing the coach would have to do with:

a)National finishes,
b)Fan Support
c) Wrestler Character(more so not getting into Penn State type trouble)

In terms of National finishes, I would give Barry a B- for previous years (I think  someone said average of 18th or so?).  However, Barry, Donny, and Jared had the Badgers poised to be a National Title contender for years to come prior to 2011.  Then 2011 happened and they are slowly rebuilding from that.  (BTW, 2011 results have NOTHING to do with my criteria because even if Donny was still an assistant, it would have been the EXACT same lineup and same dismal results.  Luckily, I think that Barry, Kyle and Trevor are doing an excellent job rebuilding and have the Badgers poised to be a Top 10 team year in and year out. A few breaks here and there and they could be a top 5 team.  Therefore, in the future, I think that fans won't  be able to complain about National finishes because the Badgers will be solid.

In terms of Fan Support, this is certainly an area that HAS to be improved and 400 fans at a dual meet is a testament to that. I would say this as the biggest opportunty for the current staff.   Fortunately, it sounds like this is an area that Trevor and Kyle are focusing big time on.  Especially with Thielke in the lineup next year, I think attendance will balloon.  I would take a wait and see approach with this criteria but I am optimistic.

In terms of Wrestler Character, we don't have wrestlers being accused of rape!  We don't have wrestlers punching off duty police officers! We don't have wrestlers getting arrested at Mifflin street.  Barry recruits high character kids.  Plus, as a team they do more community service hours than any other varisty sport.  What's not to love here and give Barry an A+?

-M Deadman
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: npope on April 08, 2013, 02:24:27 PM
Curious for some of you on here......and I know this has been asked before but some refuse to answer...so dad 2 5 and scrouge....what would have to happen for you guys to ever feel there should be a change to the head coach of the badgers?  And I am not trying to stir the pot either....but a serious question.


I can appreciate your sincere question here, dman. Might I suggest that the question should really be asked of and answered by former wrestlers from the program? Are they not the ones for whom the program exists? If the actual student participants in a non-revenue sport have a generally positive (or negative) position as to the "true" value of their experience isn't that really what we would want to know? Their opinion, after leaving the program, would seem to be the most relevant assessment of the value of a program (because it is their experience for which the program exists). It's not for the fans, it's not for the coaches, etc. Non-revenue sports exist for the benefit of the student athlete him/herself.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: dman on April 08, 2013, 02:49:12 PM
Thanks Matt!  I agree that character of the wrestlers should be a criteria as well.  With the exception of Drew, I think the badgers have exceptional character and are fine young men.  Okay...okay...Drew isn't bad either!  :)  I also agree that the program and BD need to focus on getting butts in the seats as well as getting the coaches more exposure to the high school kids and the high school programs.

Funny thing I have to point out and I know I am risking the chance of this turning negative again, but there are a lot of people on here that say things like you just did Matt and they get labeled a Barry basher and Badger hater....which has been my point all along....people can have constructive criticisms of the program and list things that they feel the head coach needs to work on, but at the end of the day that isn't Barry bashing or being a Badger hater.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: dman on April 08, 2013, 02:52:23 PM
Curious for some of you on here......and I know this has been asked before but some refuse to answer...so dad 2 5 and scrouge....what would have to happen for you guys to ever feel there should be a change to the head coach of the badgers?  And I am not trying to stir the pot either....but a serious question.


I can appreciate your sincere question here, dman. Might I suggest that the question should really be asked of and answered by former wrestlers from the program? Are they not the ones for whom the program exists? If the actual student participants in a non-revenue sport have a generally positive (or negative) position as to the "true" value of their experience isn't that really what we would want to know? Their opinion, after leaving the program, would seem to be the most relevant assessment of the value of a program (because it is their experience for which the program exists). It's not for the fans, it's not for the coaches, etc. Non-revenue sports exist for the benefit of the student athlete him/herself.


That is cool you think that former wrestlers should be the one answering the question, and maybe they should, but I was really going off of this being the public forum where people like me, who should really be working, go to get into healthy debates with others.  :)

By the way....I have had plenty of conversations with former wrestlers and they have provided great insight.  Drew being one that has provided the least constructive insight I have ever had provided to me about any subject ever!!  Again.....just teasing you little guy!   :-*
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: hammen on April 08, 2013, 03:54:49 PM
I'm just getting dogged by the big guy today!
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: whatever on April 08, 2013, 04:32:48 PM
My question would be why Bart Chelesvig, Troy and Terry Steiner, Cary Kolat, Sean Bormet, Corey Wallman, Donny Pritzlaff, Jared Frayer, and Ryan Morningstar all no longer coach for the Wisconsin Badgers?......
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Scourge on April 08, 2013, 04:49:07 PM
Curious for some of you on here......and I know this has been asked before but some refuse to answer...so dad 2 5 and scrouge....what would have to happen for you guys to ever feel there should be a change to the head coach of the badgers?  And I am not trying to stir the pot either....but a serious question.


I can appreciate your sincere question here, dman. Might I suggest that the question should really be asked of and answered by former wrestlers from the program? Are they not the ones for whom the program exists? If the actual student participants in a non-revenue sport have a generally positive (or negative) position as to the "true" value of their experience isn't that really what we would want to know? Their opinion, after leaving the program, would seem to be the most relevant assessment of the value of a program (because it is their experience for which the program exists). It's not for the fans, it's not for the coaches, etc. Non-revenue sports exist for the benefit of the student athlete him/herself.



I can tell you that there are several former UW wrestlers who don't want to voice their complaints regarding Barry publicly because...well...it doesn't look or sound good and if they don't attach their name to it, it has not bearing.  So in this respect, you're only going to get positive responses.

But my whole entire point has always been if you really care about the program, this just isn't the forum to articulate your issues with it.  If you don't believe in, or like Bo Ryan's style, do you want to post consistently on the ONE main basketball board about how terrible the coach really is so that we lose a potential top recruit? 

Obviously with Basketball it's different because the public cares a lot more and it's a revenue sport, but I'm just making my point. 

I've made my feelings known by suggesting potential hires and that's as far as I want to go.  I do think it's probably time to make a change simply for the sake of change, but I don't want to consistently bash the program. 

Plus, as I've said, bashing Barry Davis IS bashing the kids on the team and they also read this. 

But that's just my opinion.  And the reason I didn't respond to dman's post directed to me was because I didn't really take it serious.
Of course people should be ALLOWED. 
This is nothing like the work place where you can go to your boss.  A better comparison would be, "if you have a complaint at work, should you publicly bash the company under a screen name when you know the customers are reading it? 

What is ALLOWED isn't the point, what common sense dictates IMO is the point.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Kevin Black on April 08, 2013, 04:53:57 PM
Bart Chelesvig - career change
Terry Steiner - better opportunity (USA Wrestling)
Troy Steiner - position was eliminated by the administration (Advance, Iowa=alma mater now Oregon St.)
Cary Kolat - not interested in coaching at the time (moved to Pitt to train with Sanshiro Abe)
Sean Bormet - better opportunity (Michigan = alma mater, Overtime, etc.)
Cory Wallman - career change
Donny Pritzlaff - 'different' opportunity (Michigan)
Jared Frayer - better opportunity (Oklahoma = alma mater)
Ryan Morningstar - better opportunity (Iowa = alma mater)
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Scourge on April 08, 2013, 05:04:29 PM
Bart Chelesvig - career change
Terry Steiner - better opportunity (USA Wrestling)
Troy Steiner - position was eliminated by the administration (Advance, Iowa=alma mater now Oregon St.)
Cary Kolat - not interested in coaching at the time (moved to Pitt to train with Sanshiro Abe)
Sean Bormet - better opportunity (Michigan = alma mater, Overtime, etc.)
Cory Wallman - career change
Donny Pritzlaff - 'different' opportunity (Michigan)
Jared Frayer - better opportunity (Oklahoma = alma mater)
Ryan Morningstar - better opportunity (Iowa = alma mater)

How did Morningstar get a "better," opportunity?  Isn't he a strength and conditioning coach?  Does that really equate to a "better," opportunity than being the top assistant?

That's just one question...
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: dman on April 08, 2013, 05:04:35 PM
Kevin Black = UW Head Wrestling Coach???  Come on Kevin!???  ;)

Serious question....even though I am serious about you making a great head coach for the Badgers....but would you ever consider being the head coach for the Badgers?  Understand if you would rather not answer.  :)
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Kevin Black on April 08, 2013, 05:17:14 PM
Morningstar wanted to be at Iowa.  It was "better" for him and it's why he's there.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: npope on April 08, 2013, 05:22:50 PM
How did Morningstar get a "better," opportunity?  Isn't he a strength and conditioning coach?  Does that really equate to a "better," opportunity than being the top assistant?


"Better" is certainly a subjective term, but it my understanding that some programs have a lot more booster money to throw around so...Morningstar may have actually ended up making more money AND being back in the fold at Iowa. The title of the position probabaly has less to do with the realities...I suspect.

But Morningstar also said that he couldn't think of any other opportunity that could have lured him away from the Badgers. Maybe just "nice talk," but we have had a couple of ex-coaches that certainly didn't feel compelled to offer even a token of credit to Davis. So I don't think Morningstar was about Davis as much as it was about Iowa.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Scourge on April 08, 2013, 05:40:58 PM
How did Morningstar get a "better," opportunity?  Isn't he a strength and conditioning coach?  Does that really equate to a "better," opportunity than being the top assistant?


"Better" is certainly a subjective term, but it my understanding that some programs have a lot more booster money to throw around so...Morningstar may have actually ended up making more money AND being back in the fold at Iowa. The title of the position probabaly has less to do with the realities...I suspect.

But Morningstar also said that he couldn't think of any other opportunity that could have lured him away from the Badgers. Maybe just "nice talk," but we have had a couple of ex-coaches that certainly didn't feel compelled to offer even a token of credit to Davis. So I don't think Morningstar was about Davis as much as it was about Iowa.


That was kinda my point.  With all due respect to Kevin Black, just simply stating, "better opportunity," well, he went from the top guy to what, the 5th or 6th guy on Iowa's staff including both Brands?

I guess that's a bit of a problem if that's so much better of an opportunity, even with him being an Iowa guy.

Pritzlaff actually ended up with a demotion AWAY from his former school.



I just hope Branvold's around for a while.  I really am convinced he's going to be a helluva coach for a while and I think he knows which Wisconsin kids project well at the next level.  And I hope Graff sticks around after next year. 

I don't think you can possibly understate the importance of having guys training for that next level in the room in terms of recruiting and development.  Heck, if Branvold's wrestling 211, I would imagine he wrestles with Medberry which can only help him when it comes to McMullen in the future for example.  Graff sticking around and wrestling with Thielke given Graff's incredible offense on his feet and so on.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Miltown grappler on April 08, 2013, 06:45:54 PM
The reasons for leaving are not as simple as career change for all of the coaches that are listed.  Those that have ever talked to most of them, know the real problem within the program.  It is Barry and he has to go for real change to happen. 

The current assistant coaches and future assistant coaches will do great things in spite of Barry.  Current wrestlers and future wrestlers will not have as great of an experience as possible because of the leadership currently in the program.  Someone like Ben Askren would make the experience something special.

The apathy of those that defend Barry and his track record over the years will have to live with the program possibly being dropped in the future because of the leadership decisions in many areas.  If my opinion causes someone to choose elsewhere....that would be ridiculous....But perhaps in their best interest.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: billymurphy on April 08, 2013, 06:50:34 PM
Mr. Black was correct according to the Iowa website.  Morningstar took an Assistant Coaching job at Iowa. (Iowa is better).  Pritzlaff took an Assistant Coach job which ended up being a higher paying job than he got as UW's top Assistant Coach. (higher pay is better)

TOM BRANDS
Head Coach
7th year

TERRY BRANDS
Associate Head Coach
12th season at Iowa

RYAN MORNINGSTAR
Assistant Coach
1st year at Iowa

KURT BACKES
Volunteer Assistant Coach
3rd year at Iowa

LUKE EUSTICE
Director of Wrestling Operations
7th year at Iowa

LUKE LOFTHOUSE
Strength and Conditioning Coach
1st year at Iowa

Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Ghetto on April 08, 2013, 06:56:02 PM
I'm gonna add that title:

Director of Wrestling Operations

I really like that. Not sure what that means, but its a great title.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: dad 2 5 on April 08, 2013, 08:19:18 PM
Bart Chelesvig - career change
Terry Steiner - better opportunity (USA Wrestling)
Troy Steiner - position was eliminated by the administration (Advance, Iowa=alma mater now Oregon St.)
Cary Kolat - not interested in coaching at the time (moved to Pitt to train with Sanshiro Abe)
Sean Bormet - better opportunity (Michigan = alma mater, Overtime, etc.)
Cory Wallman - career change
Donny Pritzlaff - 'different' opportunity (Michigan)
Jared Frayer - better opportunity (Oklahoma = alma mater)
Ryan Morningstar - better opportunity (Iowa = alma mater)

Kevin that is a good list and explanations. But of course not all are going to agree with you. I do hope this staff stays together and moves the program forward. I have never asked BD how long he plans on coaching. That would be interesting to hear if he wants to move up in the department, not that that would be a good move or focus on the Badger Club Team?
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: hammen on April 08, 2013, 10:23:21 PM
The reasons for leaving are not as simple as career change for all of the coaches that are listed.  Those that have ever talked to most of them, know the real problem within the program.  It is Barry and he has to go for real change to happen. 

The current assistant coaches and future assistant coaches will do great things in spite of Barry.  Current wrestlers and future wrestlers will not have as great of an experience as possible because of the leadership currently in the program.  Someone like Ben Askren would make the experience something special.

The apathy of those that defend Barry and his track record over the years will have to live with the program possibly being dropped in the future because of the leadership decisions in many areas.  If my opinion causes someone to choose elsewhere....that would be ridiculous....But perhaps in their best interest.

I guess I must've not talked to all of them  ???
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Derek Miller 33 on April 09, 2013, 12:16:51 AM
I totally agree these assistant coaches are complete class. After brief conversations at the cheesehead with tb and kr it didn't take long to see their passion and and very good insight to the sport. I believe they add the year round passion alot of people want to see. I also think they bring credibility to their postions when they talk with people you can take what they say to heart.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Kevin Black on April 09, 2013, 12:42:40 AM
These types of threads are very disheartening for me, to say the least.  

I made the choice to stay in Wisconsin to compete in college because it felt like it was the "right" thing to do as an athlete.  At 18 years old, I thought I had a responsibility to the Wisconsin wrestling community who helped raise me, was an integral part of the success I had as a high school athlete and played a large role in developing me into the man I am today.

I believed in Wisconsin because I was emotionally attached to the wrestling community in this state and was/am a lifelong Badgers fan.  I was also full of hope and believed in myself.  15 years later, my perspective on life and wrestling have drastically changed.  My overall feelings of the entire Wisconsin wrestling community have also changed.

I still believe in Wisconsin because I choose to.  As a result, I make a concerted effort to support the program publicly because I know there are individuals who are in the same place I was as a senior in high school.  They want to be a part of the Wisconsin wrestling community for their entire wrestling career because they believe in themselves, regardless of the particulars (administration, coaching staff, etc.).  Some have dreamt of wearing a Badgers singlet since they were toddlers.  I don't want to stand in the way of those dreams because I had the same one and I'm glad I tried to pursue it.  The outcome of my competitive career wasn't as desirable as I would have liked it to be or what I envisioned at 18.  There are many things to consider when understanding why.  It could have been my own shortcomings, the program's shortcomings, the coaches shortcomings or a multitude of other things and a combination of all of them.

I'm sure many of the posters understand this and genuinely believe they're doing their part to assure those who choose Wisconsin have the best experience possible.  Most of the posters want what's best for the Wisconsin wrestling community, however, some of them become focused solely on themselves and not the entire community.  I don't agree with many of the opinions on this thread and don't expect everyone to agree with all of my opinions because we all have different backgrounds and life experiences (although, I'm not sharing my opinions about the program publicly).  Healthy and productive dialogue is possible in an Internet forum setting as long as participants are respectful and truthful.  

To insinuate the reason the assistant coaches mentioned left for anything other than a "better opportunity" (anyway you'd like to define that term) is simply conjecture and entirely unproductive.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: The Twisted Moose on April 09, 2013, 01:47:15 AM
that was a very well written and thoughtful response. 

i'm only taking issue with one small part; the end.  by saying they left for a "better opportunity" (however it's defined) is also conjecture.  I think the only thing we can agree on is the fact that those coaches are no longer there.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: imnofish on April 09, 2013, 12:34:01 PM
Years ago, I left a career in manufacturing to seek a career in education.  My buddies that stayed behind made a lot more money than I did, but I saw teaching as a better opportunity to make a positive difference in the world and live where I wanted to live.  I took a job as a night custodian at a school, to accommodate my college schedule.  Upon graduating, I took a teaching job hundreds of miles away, despite the fact that it paid less than my custodial salary.  Does my decision to leave that district for an opportunity that better matched my goals, reflect negatively on its leaders?  Absolutely not!  My point is that people set their own goals and ideals; then act accordingly.  Assigning our own agendas and assumptions to their decisions is illogical, inaccurate, and misguided, IMO.  Promoting unfounded, negative assumptions about the leaders they leave behind, as they pursue their goals and dreams, and blaming those leaders for the decisions, is nothing short of unfair.  Furthermore, to cast a negative public light on a program and organization, by repeatedly promoting gossip motivated by our own personal bias, is the epitome of selfishness. 
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: Barou on April 09, 2013, 12:45:58 PM
Years ago, I left a career in manufacturing to seek a career in education.  My buddies that stayed behind made a lot more money than I did, but I saw teaching as a better opportunity to make a positive difference in the world and live where I wanted to live.  I took a job as a night custodian at a school, to accommodate my college schedule.  Upon graduating, I took a teaching job hundreds of miles away, despite the fact that it paid less than my custodial salary.  Does my decision to leave that district for an opportunity that better matched my goals, reflect negatively on its leaders?  Absolutely not!  My point is that people set their own goals and ideals; then act accordingly.  Assigning our own agendas and assumptions to their decisions is illogical, inaccurate, and misguided, IMO.  Promoting unfounded, negative assumptions about the leaders they leave behind, as they pursue their goals and dreams, and blaming those leaders for the decisions, is nothing short of unfair.  Furthermore, to cast a negative public light on a program and organization, by repeatedly promoting gossip motivated by our own personal bias, is the epitome of selfishness. 

Some could argue that not everything is "unfounded". At least one former wrestler was straight up lied to during a recruiting visit and Donny s seperation wasn't amicable and to say he left for a "better opportunity" is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: imnofish on April 09, 2013, 12:59:56 PM
Years ago, I left a career in manufacturing to seek a career in education.  My buddies that stayed behind made a lot more money than I did, but I saw teaching as a better opportunity to make a positive difference in the world and live where I wanted to live.  I took a job as a night custodian at a school, to accommodate my college schedule.  Upon graduating, I took a teaching job hundreds of miles away, despite the fact that it paid less than my custodial salary.  Does my decision to leave that district for an opportunity that better matched my goals, reflect negatively on its leaders?  Absolutely not!  My point is that people set their own goals and ideals; then act accordingly.  Assigning our own agendas and assumptions to their decisions is illogical, inaccurate, and misguided, IMO.  Promoting unfounded, negative assumptions about the leaders they leave behind, as they pursue their goals and dreams, and blaming those leaders for the decisions, is nothing short of unfair.  Furthermore, to cast a negative public light on a program and organization, by repeatedly promoting gossip motivated by our own personal bias, is the epitome of selfishness. 

Some could argue that not everything is "unfounded". At least one former wrestler was straight up lied to during a recruiting visit and Donny s seperation wasn't amicable and to say he left for a "better opportunity" is ridiculous.

What constitutes a "better opportunity" is up to the discretion of the person making the decision to go elsewhere.  At any rate, what's done is done.  Continually beating this same dead horse does nothing to advance the program, but does much to harm its ability to learn from mistakes and move forward in pursuit of better results.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: The Twisted Moose on April 09, 2013, 01:28:31 PM
Like I said, we can only agree on the fact that those coaches are no longer part of the program.
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: wrestling for fun on April 09, 2013, 01:31:49 PM
Years ago, I left a career in manufacturing to seek a career in education.  My buddies that stayed behind made a lot more money than I did, but I saw teaching as a better opportunity to make a positive difference in the world and live where I wanted to live.  I took a job as a night custodian at a school, to accommodate my college schedule.  Upon graduating, I took a teaching job hundreds of miles away, despite the fact that it paid less than my custodial salary.  Does my decision to leave that district for an opportunity that better matched my goals, reflect negatively on its leaders?  Absolutely not!  My point is that people set their own goals and ideals; then act accordingly.  Assigning our own agendas and assumptions to their decisions is illogical, inaccurate, and misguided, IMO.  Promoting unfounded, negative assumptions about the leaders they leave behind, as they pursue their goals and dreams, and blaming those leaders for the decisions, is nothing short of unfair.  Furthermore, to cast a negative public light on a program and organization, by repeatedly promoting gossip motivated by our own personal bias, is the epitome of selfishness. 

Some could argue that not everything is "unfounded". At least one former wrestler was straight up lied to during a recruiting visit and Donny s seperation wasn't amicable and to say he left for a "better opportunity" is ridiculous.

I would argue that leaving for a $35,000/yr raise for doing basically the same thing...is certainly a "better opportunity"
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: imnofish on April 09, 2013, 01:59:40 PM
Years ago, I left a career in manufacturing to seek a career in education.  My buddies that stayed behind made a lot more money than I did, but I saw teaching as a better opportunity to make a positive difference in the world and live where I wanted to live.  I took a job as a night custodian at a school, to accommodate my college schedule.  Upon graduating, I took a teaching job hundreds of miles away, despite the fact that it paid less than my custodial salary.  Does my decision to leave that district for an opportunity that better matched my goals, reflect negatively on its leaders?  Absolutely not!  My point is that people set their own goals and ideals; then act accordingly.  Assigning our own agendas and assumptions to their decisions is illogical, inaccurate, and misguided, IMO.  Promoting unfounded, negative assumptions about the leaders they leave behind, as they pursue their goals and dreams, and blaming those leaders for the decisions, is nothing short of unfair.  Furthermore, to cast a negative public light on a program and organization, by repeatedly promoting gossip motivated by our own personal bias, is the epitome of selfishness. 

Some could argue that not everything is "unfounded". At least one former wrestler was straight up lied to during a recruiting visit and Donny s seperation wasn't amicable and to say he left for a "better opportunity" is ridiculous.

I would argue that leaving for a $35,000/yr raise for doing basically the same thing...is certainly a "better opportunity"

Absolutely.  It should also be noted how many of these guys left for locations at which they have personal connections.  Many people return to communities where relatives and friends are more accessible, regardless of other factors. 
Title: Re: Could not have said it better....
Post by: The Twisted Moose on April 09, 2013, 02:05:24 PM
Absolutely.  It should also be noted how many of these guys left for locations at which they have personal connections.  Many people return to communities where relatives and friends are more accessible, regardless of other factors.  
[/quote]

well, since you just can't leave it at "they're not here any longer" please note which guys left for what locations and the personal connections that they had/have there.