I expected Tom to post something today with all the discussion on Flo Radio Live today.
Scratch at weigh ins with shoes and singlet (headgear?) if needed for bracketing.
Then matside you add 1 pound.
Second day of tournament start with matside with an additional pound
Thoughts?
Maybe "matside" is in the staging area instead of matside for tournaments.
Quote from: Numbers on July 07, 2022, 09:16:37 PM
I expected Tom to post something today with all the discussion on Flo Radio Live today.
Scratch at weigh ins with shoes and singlet (headgear?) if needed for bracketing.
Then matside you add 1 pound.
Second day of tournament start with matside with an additional pound
Thoughts?
Maybe "matside" is in the staging area instead of matside for tournaments.
I
don't think the benefits outweigh the effort involved. Wrestlers are already limited on how much they can cut because if they get too dehydrated it will severely impact their wrestling. They only have about 2 hours to recover. Not nearly enough time for cells to fully rehydrate.
On the effort/logistics side, it slows down the wrestling and you probably need at least 1 scale sitting out the entire day (taking up space & vulnerable to damage) for every 2 mats.
I am 100% for this. I would love to see some documentation on this though.
I would love to see a few tournaments, especially longer ones, weigh in kids prior to every match just to see how different they are. Not to scratch anyone at first but just see how different weights are.
I personally would love to simplify everything and you have to make the weight class and the weight class stays the same all year. No growth pounds and no consecutive day pounds. Kids would have to think differently about what weight class they "fit" in rather than simply what weight class they can "make weight" in.
It is silly that we call out the 103 lbers for the state title match and they weighed 108 in the morning and weigh a lot more than that when they wrestle on Saturday night.
I get what everyone is saying on this but I totally say NO to any of this.
First off this is another step to make wrestling less attractive to during the season kids. We have a weight loss plan.and now to add more confusion or a other step, we now have mat side weigh ins.
Example: so a kid makes 106 for his first match and then for tye second match he weighs 109. Guess what he isn't wrestling 106 for some time with our decent plan.
Maybe for college and senior level guys I may go with it but not in high school. Plus people weighing in kids so everyone can see there weigh isn't cool.
I will go with it if all the fans weigh in when entering and every time they leave and come back to their seats ;D including wife's and daughters!
Get rid of fat test.
Get rid of descent plan.
Get rid of growth allowance.
Get rid of consecutive day pound.
Matside weigh-ins but they are not mat side. One room or locker room out of sight where wrestlers must report 15 minutes prior to match.
If you don't make weight you forfeit that match but not disqualified.
Make weight and wrestle. Coaches don't even ever need weigh-in sheets.
Sounds like a much easier plan to me that is safe and more fair.
Kids will still cut. I get trying to eliminate the "bad" weight cutting, but mat side weigh-ins won't be the magic bullet. To me the rules in place work as far as coaches and parents create the culture of wrestling at a healthy weight and place an emphasis on NOT "cutting" weight. Rule after rule can be implemented but true change happens with the coaches and the parents.
With all the being said, I am not necessarily "against" mat side weigh-ins, I just think it isn't the magic bullet people think it is and feels like change for the sake of change.
Interesting idea,
You made weight at weighins for your first match and if you are over weight for your match and forfeit, then you have to "cut" weight to wrestle again?
How does this grow wrestling? Will more kids wrestle because they have to weighin in front of everyone?
Who monitors the weighin back in the locker room during the rounds after the first at tournaments? Is there a scale by each mat and when on deck you weigh in? Who monitors it on multiple mats? What about weight difference in scales? Yes, there is a difference Christian Pyles :) If he/she changes singlets/head gear/shoes etc, and is now over, can they change back? Is there be a check scale?
I agree, how does it affect the decent plan(which is worse than the .5/day was)?
Just some thoughts I had.
Matt
Quote from: colekaden on July 12, 2022, 08:02:35 AM
Interesting idea,
You made weight at weighins for your first match and if you are over weight for your match and forfeit, then you have to "cut" weight to wrestle again?
How does this grow wrestling? Will more kids wrestle because they have to weighin in front of everyone?
Who monitors the weighin back in the locker room during the rounds after the first at tournaments? Is there a scale by each mat and when on deck you weigh in? Who monitors it on multiple mats? What about weight difference in scales? Yes, there is a difference Christian Pyles :) If he/she changes singlets/head gear/shoes etc, and is now over, can they change back? Is there be a check scale?
I agree, how does it affect the decent plan(which is worse than the .5/day was)?
Just some thoughts I had.
Matt
I am with Matt on this one. I think this hurts wrestling and would lead to wrestlers cutting weight throughout the day instead of worrying about competing. We should be worried about getting rid of the 1.5% rule for a different decent plan.
My guess is no one that actually wants this is a coach. There are already so many headaches that one goes through and then to add that throughout your day? I guess if you would like less wrestlers and coaches in the long run this could be your solution.
Quote from: padre on July 12, 2022, 03:16:26 PM
My guess is no one that actually wants this is a coach. There are already so many headaches that one goes through and then to add that throughout your day? I guess if you would like less wrestlers and coaches in the long run this could be your solution.
Totally agree. Having to monitor what kids eat during the day is impossible. It creates a mess that would lead to massive FFs at tournaments. It would also cause kids to not want to wrestle, IMO.
Kids will always cut. Always have and always will no matter the system.
Kids that cut are rewarded now with only a morning weigh-in.
Let's reward the kids that are wrestling at a more natural weight and make it more fair.
Only kids that will have to cut over the day are the guys that gain an advantage now. Let's tip the scales in favor of those that have picked a proper weight class and not the lowest one they can starve into.
The wrestling mentality right now is that if I wrestle 145 then I need to weigh in at 144.9 by not eating all night and no breakfast. Why can't we change the mentality that if I weigh 142 then I should be wrestling 145 and not 138
Quote from: DocWrestling on July 13, 2022, 05:46:01 PM
Kids will always cut. Always have and always will no matter the system.
Kids that cut are rewarded now with only a morning weigh-in.
Let's reward the kids that are wrestling at a more natural weight and make it more fair.
Only kids that will have to cut over the day are the guys that gain an advantage now. Let's tip the scales in favor of those that have picked a proper weight class and not the lowest one they can starve into.
The wrestling mentality right now is that if I wrestle 145 then I need to weigh in at 144.9 by not eating all night and no breakfast. Why can't we change the mentality that if I weigh 142 then I should be wrestling 145 and not 138
Why?
Because you will have that kid that weighs in at 142.5 and wrestles his/her first match, then drinks 20 ounces of water (1.3lbs), a banana and some grapes (0.5lbs), maybe a juice box (0.5lbs) and a sandwich only to weigh 145.1 right before their next match. So how do you propose a coach navigates this?
Why not just change everything to a 4 person round robin and group by ability along with +/- 10% weight allowance ::)
Combat sports have weight classes, that is how it is done.
Educate your coach, Educate the parents and Educate the kids on weight management. Your proposal rewards the kids that are just not that serious about the sport. Extra workouts, healthy eating and self discipline is hard work and not for everyone. Of course there will always be a minority that abuse the system and take the short cuts.
Sorry but I just don't get it!
Quote from: DocWrestling on July 13, 2022, 05:46:01 PM
Kids will always cut. Always have and always will no matter the system.
Kids that cut are rewarded now with only a morning weigh-in.
Let's reward the kids that are wrestling at a more natural weight and make it more fair.
Only kids that will have to cut over the day are the guys that gain an advantage now. Let's tip the scales in favor of those that have picked a proper weight class and not the lowest one they can starve into.
The wrestling mentality right now is that if I wrestle 145 then I need to weigh in at 144.9 by not eating all night and no breakfast. Why can't we change the mentality that if I weigh 142 then I should be wrestling 145 and not 138
I agree that "kids will always cut." So maybe coaching them in a better, safer process is warranted? If majority of coaches are advising their wrestlers to cut weight as you describe then maybe the changes needing to be made are in educating the coaches in a better weight management process?
Your correct that "kids will always cut." So maybe coaching them in a better, safer process is warranted?
The longer time you have between weigh-ins and the most important matches the more kids will cut.
Combat sports weigh in the day before and that leads to excessive cutting and guys that weight nothing near their weight class at match time.
We used to weigh in the day before in college too. The more you cut the more you were rewarded by hopefully weighing a lot more than your opponent by match time the next day. College guys cut less now because they don't weigh in a day early
The hour rule is a good one now but does not make it very fair for the finals matches on Saturday nights that are 12 hours after weigh-ins.
If a kid cuts too much or the wrong way, the problem will take care of itself.
We struggle to get enough kids to wrestle in front of everyone, now they have to weigh in too??
He new guy, Little Johnny( and Big Johnny), I would like you to wrestle, BUT first you have to pee in a cup, then get your fat pinched, then coach gives you a print out that looks like it's from the FBI that tells you what you should weigh everyday, 1.5hrs practices that are the toughest thing most will do their whole lives( which is good for them to a point), then you have to weigh-in in front of everyone or right before you wrestle and then compete in front of everyone, just to wrestle your first time.... oh wait you are .1 over because you have your socks on and can't take them off.
Now your at your first tournament, you made it the first time. Now you drank a Gatorade and had a PBJ sandwich. Your match comes up in 45min, Sorry son your .2 over, can't wrestle the 2nd round but if you go run that off, you can wrestle your next one. Can you check every scale they are using for the event?
Does this grow wrestling?
Just some thoughts. Good conversation.
Matt
Quote from: colekaden on July 19, 2022, 08:01:28 AM
If a kid cuts too much or the wrong way, the problem will take care of itself.
We struggle to get enough kids to wrestle in front of everyone, now they have to weigh in too??
He new guy, Little Johnny( and Big Johnny), I would like you to wrestle, BUT first you have to pee in a cup, then get your fat pinched, then coach gives you a print out that looks like it's from the FBI that tells you what you should weigh everyday, 1.5hrs practices that are the toughest thing most will do their whole lives( which is good for them to a point), then you have to weigh-in in front of everyone or right before you wrestle and then compete in front of everyone, just to wrestle your first time.... oh wait you are .1 over because you have your socks on and can't take them off.
Now your at your first tournament, you made it the first time. Now you drank a Gatorade and had a PBJ sandwich. Your match comes up in 45min, Sorry son your .2 over, can't wrestle the 2nd round but if you go run that off, you can wrestle your next one. Can you check every scale they are using for the event?
Does this grow wrestling?
Just some thoughts. Good conversation.
Matt
+1
Quote from: colekaden on July 19, 2022, 08:01:28 AM
If a kid cuts too much or the wrong way, the problem will take care of itself.
We struggle to get enough kids to wrestle in front of everyone, now they have to weigh in too??
He new guy, Little Johnny( and Big Johnny), I would like you to wrestle, BUT first you have to pee in a cup, then get your fat pinched, then coach gives you a print out that looks like it's from the FBI that tells you what you should weigh everyday, 1.5hrs practices that are the toughest thing most will do their whole lives( which is good for them to a point), then you have to weigh-in in front of everyone or right before you wrestle and then compete in front of everyone, just to wrestle your first time.... oh wait you are .1 over because you have your socks on and can't take them off.
Now your at your first tournament, you made it the first time. Now you drank a Gatorade and had a PBJ sandwich. Your match comes up in 45min, Sorry son your .2 over, can't wrestle the 2nd round but if you go run that off, you can wrestle your next one. Can you check every scale they are using for the event?
Does this grow wrestling?
Just some thoughts. Good conversation.
Matt
Agree 100 percent!!!
The socks rule made me laugh a bit at someone else's expense as it's one of the dumbest rules ever...happened at a dual to a good friend of mines wrestler(.1over)....thought the guy(head coach) was going to have an aneurism.
Now add all these rules? I think not.
Quote from: colekaden on July 19, 2022, 08:01:28 AM
He new guy, Little Johnny( and Big Johnny), I would like you to wrestle, BUT first you have to pee in a cup, then get your fat pinched, then coach gives you a print out that looks like it's from the FBI that tells you what you should weigh everyday, 1.5hrs practices that are the toughest thing most will do their whole lives( which is good for them to a point), then you have to weigh-in in front of everyone or right before you wrestle and then compete in front of everyone, just to wrestle your first time.... oh wait you are .1 over because you have your socks on and can't take them off.
Now your at your first tournament, you made it the first time. Now you drank a Gatorade and had a PBJ sandwich. Your match comes up in 45min, Sorry son your .2 over, can't wrestle the 2nd round but if you go run that off, you can wrestle your next one. Can you check every scale they are using for the event?
Does this grow wrestling?
Just some thoughts. Good conversation.
Matt
speaking of the hydration test, I feel like every sport should have to go through the pain of passing that. I would bet that more than half of any schools athletes are dehydrated without cutting any weight.
Nicely put colekaden and wrestlingfan32. Why does wrestling have all these rules that no other sport has? Safety I am sure the answer is but dont you want all athletes hydrated? Also under NFHS rules skin checks are not just wrestling but sports that have contact and exposed skin. I know an area school girls basketball team that had a ring worm break out that spread to other schools but nothing was done.
The last thing our sport needs right now is to put kids on a scale in display of an entire gymnasium. We have issues in our sport, lets not create one that will absolutely not encourage one kid to come out. Imagine you are in the stands watching your schoolmate miss weight by .1 in front of the whole crowd and to go and sit on the bench dejected. What kid is going to say "That's what I want to do!"? NOPE. Just forget about this idea completely.
I think we have enough rules already governing wrestling. Let's just get out there and recruit good kids teach him how to wrestle and enjoy it and Madison. If Wrestling has any issues it's that we have two holidays that the kids have to get through. Let's start after Thanksgiving So we don't have to cut weight for two holidays.
We do most of this to ourselves. We are the only sport that cannibalizes itself.
We are the only sport that has rules about weight maintenance. No one says a word or does a thing about football which has always promoted weight gain which health wise creates much more negative health issues (especially long term) than weight cutting.
There is no fat test, ascent plan, monitoring, nothing. It is just "gain weight". They lift weights and get heavier always believing it is increased muscle mass. There is no way to quantify this without regular fat testing.
Quote from: DocWrestling on July 11, 2022, 09:37:43 PM
Get rid of fat test.
Get rid of descent plan.
Get rid of growth allowance.
Get rid of consecutive day pound.
Matside weigh-ins but they are not mat side. One room or locker room out of sight where wrestlers must report 15 minutes prior to match.
If you don't make weight you forfeit that match but not disqualified.
Make weight and wrestle. Coaches don't even ever need weigh-in sheets.
Sounds like a much easier plan to me that is safe and more fair.
Get rid of all of the things that have been working and then have kids who are going to be pushed out of the sport as they need to fill a weight and they have to go through a full tournament without drinking or eating?
If feels like all the things you want to get rid of have been working out pretty well...
Quote from: DocWrestling on July 11, 2022, 09:37:43 PM
Get rid of fat test.
Get rid of descent plan.
Get rid of growth allowance.
Get rid of consecutive day pound.
Matside weigh-ins but they are not mat side. One room or locker room out of sight where wrestlers must report 15 minutes prior to match.
If you don't make weight you forfeit that match but not disqualified.
Make weight and wrestle. Coaches don't even ever need weigh-in sheets.
Sounds like a much easier plan to me that is safe and more fair.
Ok, doc weigh yourself in the morning and then at night. I would guess your weight moves around so please dont think making weight for a teenager would be easy for an all day tournament and wrestling 5 matches.
I think everyone will know the missed weight if they dont wrestle a match but come back latter. Sorry want to grow wrestling this isnt a very good idea. Heck let's post there grades and what girl they are interested in on the score board also....geez lets put kids under pressure all day and not allow them to have any fun.
Decent plan needs to go!
Growth allowance I can understand going away with
1 pound for consecutive days needs to stay. See above kids eats and drink during a day. Give them some breathing room.
So a kids has a wrestle back in 45 minutes and in a half a hour he has to weigh in for his wrestle back.
So a kid goes out for his semi finals match but he is low on water and food and the coach asked him what is going on, the athlete response by saying he is 2 pounds over and if he loses he has to get running so he can make weight for his next match.
Let kids weigh in once and enjoy the day no matter if your the champ or 0-2 barb-e-que!
I asked a few kids the mat side weigh in question and every kid said screw that!
Why punish a kid that makes weight that morning and have them weigh in another 4 more times possibly.? So in school if a kid gets a good grade do you make them retake the same test another 4 times? If a qb throws a touchdown do you make them rerun the play 4 more times. 1 and done in weigh ins PERIOD! I am about growing the sport and this idea isnt going to work for sure!
Maybe for a si gle college dual it could work but not for high school age kids whether new or experienced for tournaments.
I am not really all in on matside weigh-ins for many of the reasons stated but will make 2 points.
1) Having a specific weight class that must be met for every match increases fairness
2) Many of the concerns over a kid worrying about making weight are because of the wrestling mentality that kids need to choose the lowest weight class they can make. What if 145lb class was filled with guys that naturally walk around at 140. They would never have to worry about making weight with matside weigh ins. But the wrestling philosophy is that if you walk around at 150 you must wrestle 145 or 138. Our sport rewards the kids that cut the most. We make this even worse by giving growth pounds and daily allowances. Rewards the cutters more. Supposedly kids are growing but so many kids drop a weight class after given the growth allowance?
IMO, STUPID!
This does not make the sport more attractive to potential wrestlers. Now you have to watch your weight all day even if you are not "cutting weight."
Example: I naturally walk around at 132 pounds, yet I can float around a couple of pounds day to day as everyone does. I make 132 and am in the semis of a really tough match, I re-hydrate afterwards but am now .2 over. That is just plain stupid.
We have a lot of issues with the sport, this is not one of them. The shoulder to should weigh-ins were a nice step, let's leave it at that.
It's been a great summer folks. Wisconsin wrestling is doing well.