There have been many emotional comments made about what is going on in our sport. I ask all that have commented on this unique situation to look at the Program next week at State. Read Dave Anderson's letter. Look at what the WIAA provides for opportunity and structure. Look at the development of rules. And most important, look at the next page of those that are the Board of Control. The Executive Staff. and most importantly, the Advisory Council. Look farther into who your Coaches Committee Representative is. These are the heart and soul of the WIAA. Not just one person. After you do that, look into the rules and by laws of the WIAA. It is unfortunate what happened this week. In my opinion the WIAA followed the process.
I don't disagree that they followed the process likely and I hope that maybe this spurs the AD's and coaches association to make some positive changes.
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 17, 2017, 03:03:31 PM
I don't disagree that they followed the process likely and I hope that maybe this spurs the AD's and coaches association to make some positive changes.
Yes, more communication is needed to make this process better.
Quote from: woody53 on February 17, 2017, 03:40:56 PM
And those that think I am under the WIAA Money Experience. Last year I was paid $580.00 for being the Supervisor of the Individual State Championships. I got $220.00 for being the Assistant Supervisor at Team State. That works out to $15.40 per week that I work on the State tournament all year. Trust me. I work on State all year. That is public record. Check it out.
No one complained about your wage...your not making the decisions that the WIAA is. You should be paid more for your job....that would also fall on the WIAA board.
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 17, 2017, 03:03:31 PM
I don't disagree that they followed the process likely and I hope that maybe this spurs the AD's and coaches association to make some positive changes.
+1
My problem is that the punishment is to the kids. Fine and or suspend the coach and AD. The kids loaded the bus and followed their lead. This infraction was solely on the administration and did not affect the athlete's performance. It's comparable to the NCAA. The coaches use NCAA violations to build their resume and get huge contracts and the athletes get the recourse. Fines need to match the reward.
Following a bad process does not make anything right. Process unchecked by measurements of success and continuous improvement initiatives are bad processes. Bureaucracy grows like a weed when organizations marry themselves to the process and lose sight of the outcome.
Ironic that the topic of this thread is entitled "Who is the WIAA". Good question... The problem is not an inability to take action but an inability to take appropriate action, caused by either leadership stubbornness or incompetence. When I look at what the WIAA offers for opportunity and structure... I see lots of shared responsibility... and with shared responsibility, nothing gets accomplished.
Quote from: ThirdTimeACharm on February 17, 2017, 06:51:06 PM
Following a bad process does not make anything right. Process unchecked by measurements of success and continuous improvement initiatives are bad processes. Bureaucracy grows like a weed when organizations marry themselves to the process and lose sight of the outcome.
Ironic that the topic of this thread is entitled "Who is the WIAA". Good question... The problem is not an inability to take action but an inability to take appropriate action, caused by either leadership stubbornness or incompetence. When I look at what the WIAA offers for opportunity and structure... I see lots of shared responsibility... and with shared responsibility, nothing gets accomplished.
So DePere breaks the rules and the WIAA are the bad guys ? Stop this. Because the some of you must think if the police stop you for speeding its there fault........ridiculous.
If you do not like rules then use the process to change it and do it the way the process allows. Nothing wrong with that but to blame and chastise the WIAA for enforcing a rule that DePere broke is emotional and unreasonable. Fire the AD he screwed up.
By the way every School has a choice to belong to the WIAA they know what they are getting into.
The only emotional response here is yours. I didn't call the WIAA bad guys, rather, I said they have and continue to follow a bad process... seemingly unchecked for improvements.
By way of your analogy...
If the police follow their procedure and I'm cited for speeding. I have no problem paying for the citation if I'm the driver. However, I may not be as agreeable, if cited for speeding and subsequently required to pay the citation if I'm I'm a passenger in the back seat. That might be a bad process... and continuing to follow it... a bad practice....
Staying with your analogy... in this situation, it's likely public opinion would eventually lead to a change in that bad practice.
I've got no horse in this... I"m not from DePere, but I am a wrestling parent. I'm guessing a parent or two in De Pere would find your position less than comforting. You might as well if you considered it from their perspective. They are not likely to pursue change in WIAA process and procedure if this is the end of their runway with kids, etc. However, perhaps, they should since it is their kids who have been impacted the most by this.... And to return to your analogy... those kids are the back seat passenger... not the driver.
Back to my point... a call for improvement. Interesting that schools have a choice to belong to the WIAA or not.... And the alternative is??? You see, that may be the fundamental problem... being the only game in town, unchallenged by competition, probably won't breed improvement... generally doesn't on the mat and wouldn't seem to with the WIAA either...
Perspective is everything... you should pause and consider that.
Quote from: ramjet on February 17, 2017, 06:59:57 PM
Quote from: ThirdTimeACharm on February 17, 2017, 06:51:06 PM
Following a bad process does not make anything right. Process unchecked by measurements of success and continuous improvement initiatives are bad processes. Bureaucracy grows like a weed when organizations marry themselves to the process and lose sight of the outcome.
Ironic that the topic of this thread is entitled "Who is the WIAA". Good question... The problem is not an inability to take action but an inability to take appropriate action, caused by either leadership stubbornness or incompetence. When I look at what the WIAA offers for opportunity and structure... I see lots of shared responsibility... and with shared responsibility, nothing gets accomplished.
So DePere breaks the rules and the WIAA are the bad guys ? Stop this. Because the some of you must think if the police stop you for speeding its there fault........ridiculous.
If you do not like rules then use the process to change it and do it the way the process allows. Nothing wrong with that but to blame and chastise the WIAA for enforcing a rule that DePere broke is emotional and unreasonable. Fire the AD he screwed up.
By the way every School has a choice to belong to the WIAA they know what they are getting into.
Quote from: woody53 on February 17, 2017, 02:32:48 PM
There have been many emotional comments made about what is going on in our sport. I ask all that have commented on this unique situation to look at the Program next week at State. Read Dave Anderson's letter. Look at what the WIAA provides for opportunity and structure. Look at the development of rules. And most important, look at the next page of those that are the Board of Control. The Executive Staff. and most importantly, the Advisory Council. Look farther into who your Coaches Committee Representative is. These are the heart and soul of the WIAA. Not just one person. After you do that, look into the rules and by laws of the WIAA. It is unfortunate what happened this week. In my opinion the WIAA followed the process.
I could care less who the WIAA is, some fancy titles behind the names attached to another bad decision? I could care less what letter Dave Anderson writes either, the decision they made not to let these kids wrestle is wrong. The program at state next week will not be what it should be because a group of 14-18 year old kids had their season, and their opportunity to wrestle at the pinnacle event of their sport taken from them by a group of incompetent "adults." The WIAA chose to take away an opportunity for these wrestlers, not provide one, that is what they do, it's the only thing they seem to do, look for reasons to punish athletes and limit their opportunities. What is truly unfortunate is the bad decision the WIAA made, doesn't hurt them in the least, they still get their inflated salaries, and don't have to answer to anyone. I have less respect for the WIAA each and every time they rule on something. I know you are a great guy, you love this sport and give back to it all year but your defense of this proven incompetent organization is baffling to me...especially for as little as they pay you.
Quote from: wraslfan on February 17, 2017, 09:01:34 PM
Quote from: woody53 on February 17, 2017, 02:32:48 PM
There have been many emotional comments made about what is going on in our sport. I ask all that have commented on this unique situation to look at the Program next week at State. Read Dave Anderson's letter. Look at what the WIAA provides for opportunity and structure. Look at the development of rules. And most important, look at the next page of those that are the Board of Control. The Executive Staff. and most importantly, the Advisory Council. Look farther into who your Coaches Committee Representative is. These are the heart and soul of the WIAA. Not just one person. After you do that, look into the rules and by laws of the WIAA. It is unfortunate what happened this week. In my opinion the WIAA followed the process.
I could care less who the WIAA is, some fancy titles behind the names attached to another bad decision? I could care less what letter Dave Anderson writes either, the decision they made not to let these kids wrestle is wrong. The program at state next week will not be what it should be because a group of 14-18 year old kids had their season, and their opportunity to wrestle at the pinnacle event of their sport taken from them by a group of incompetent "adults." The WIAA chose to take away an opportunity for these wrestlers, not provide one, that is what they do, it's the only thing they seem to do, look for reasons to punish athletes and limit their opportunities. What is truly unfortunate is the bad decision the WIAA made, doesn't hurt them in the least, they still get their inflated salaries, and don't have to answer to anyone. I have less respect for the WIAA each and every time they rule on something. I know you are a great guy, you love this sport and give back to it all year but your defense of this proven incompetent organization is baffling to me...especially for as little as they pay you.
Perfectly written. This decision is further proof that the primary objective of the wiaa is NOT the student athletes. They had the opportunity to find a way to make a favorable decision for the kids and they failed. Literally every post I have read acknowledges that the kids are not at fault. Let's not act like the wiaa HAD to disqualify them from the state tournament series. A bunch of highly educated overpaid "professionals" couldn't come up with a punishment that DIDN'T involve athletic ineligibility. I continue to be appalled by posters that actually support the wiaa on this decision.
I really think that the WIAA has to issue a public statement in these kinds of decisions. I am guessing that the WIAA board members are going to want to keep a very low profile next weekend.
LOL emotional responses to an organization who you agreed to join. Now because they have rules and enforced them they are the bad guys? Funny and BS about no skin in the game just the fact that you said that indicates you do. Again you do not have to be part of the WIAA the Board signs that contract every year go to the School Board tell them you are not in favor of being put of the organization. After all many of you do not belong to the WIAA for JR High Wrestling. Stop the complaining they broke the rules the WIAA followed protocols to give them the appeals process found them in violation and the punishment was sent down. Hold the AD accountable they scheduled the extra matches. Many of the other programs in the state followed the rules so as tough as this is hold the adults that are in charge accountable. When you sign the contract to be part of the WIAA YOU SIGN UP FOR THE RULES AND APPLICATION OF RULES AND PUNISHMENTS!!!!!! Grow up and be adult about this stop using emotion to rationalize.
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 17, 2017, 10:23:03 PM
I really think that the WIAA has to issue a public statement in these kinds of decisions. I am guessing that the WIAA board members are going to want to keep a very low profile next weekend.
Why is that? Some folks going to threaten or take this decision out on them? Ridiculous.......
Quote from: padre on February 17, 2017, 11:08:55 PM
That would be you Ram...amazing to me you and a few others are OK with this. Would loved to see what your reaction would have been if your kid was a senior. Sad....very sad.
Well Mr Know it all I would have called for the ADs job!!!!! Frankly this year has been full of snow cancellations and the Coaches and AD were very aware of the number of matches Tournamanets etc... Despite the fact that we needed to reschedule and move around to find Tournamanets to replace the ones we could not have or go to because of the weather we and all the other programs did not loose track or count.....amazing isn't it. If you want to blame someone blame the person responsible for the infraction go after the AD. I absolutely encourage every parent and wrestler to ask for the ADs resignation in fact demand it!!!!!! Go to the School Board and demand they fire this AD and look at the head coach as well........
Plus your mischarectorization that we or I am "ok with this" shows just how absolutely clueless you are nobody is "OK" with this, nobody. But the rules are in place for everyone. If you do not like them use the democratic process and change them. Your School belongs to the WIAA correct? If that organization is so poor and so dysfunctional why do you belong?
By the way for the record I voted and support President Trump all the way........not that it matters but just thought I would clear the record.
Quote from: ramjet on February 17, 2017, 10:31:51 PM
LOL emotional responses to an organization who you agreed to join. Now because they have rules and enforced them they are the bad guys? Funny and BS about no skin in the game just the fact that you said that indicates you do. Again you do not have to be part of the WIAA the Board signs that contract every year go to the School Board tell them you are not in favor of being put of the organization. After all many of you do not belong to the WIAA for JR High Wrestling. Stop the complaining they broke the rules the WIAA followed protocols to give them the appeals process found them in violation and the punishment was sent down. Hold the AD accountable they scheduled the extra matches. Many of the other programs in the state followed the rules so as tough as this is hold the adults that are in charge accountable. When you sign the contract to be part of the WIAA YOU SIGN UP FOR THE RULES AND APPLICATION OF RULES AND PUNISHMENTS!!!!!! Grow up and be adult about this stop using emotion to rationalize.
What a load of BS, Ram. These kids / coaches don't have a choice of "joining" the WIAA. It's the ONLY choice they have if they want to compete. They have NO other option. Please, tell me who the WIAA answers to? No kidding there are emotional responses, when idiotic decisions are made by the sole organization supposedly there
for the student athletes, and they consistently make moronic decisions that go against them. It is no surprise. Who benefits from this decision? Kaukana? Or the other team whining? Or is it just an opportunity for the WIAA to wield it's unchecked power? The people who need to act like adults are those making decisions within the WIAA that prevent student athletes from competing in response to a simple mistake, and the teams / coaches reporting them for the infraction. All these adults should be embarrassed of themselves.
Are you working for the WIAA now? Buddies with someone there? If this happened to your son, you'd be screaming and you know it.
Quote from: ramjet on February 17, 2017, 10:33:43 PM
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 17, 2017, 10:23:03 PM
I really think that the WIAA has to issue a public statement in these kinds of decisions. I am guessing that the WIAA board members are going to want to keep a very low profile next weekend.
Why is that? Some folks going to threaten or take this decision out on them? Ridiculous.......
I just think they will be booed a lot. That is all. They are like Roger Goodell always making the hard unpopular decisions
I would be pissed at the AD and coach more than anything but I would also know that it was not an intentional mistake and they are likely very good people. I can get mad at my wife but still love her. I don't just get rid of her if she makes a mistake. There does not need to be an overreaction on the coach and AD either. I am sure they already feel punished enough
Ramjet, You know like everyone else we are supposed to keep politics off this forum. You should respect that like everyone else. You take a shot, then run. This is disrespectful and cowardly. Trust me, everyone knows who you voted for. Your behavior and posts let us know.
You are out of line wanting to punish the kids here.
Lastly; you can fire the AD (and maybe that is just, I don't think so) but it is not that easy to get an AD. The hours are incredibly long and the pay is in no way commensurate with the workload. AD do this for the love of kids, education, and the sport environment which serves student-athletes.
Quote from: ramjet on February 17, 2017, 11:26:01 PM
Quote from: padre on February 17, 2017, 11:08:55 PM
That would be you Ram...amazing to me you and a few others are OK with this. Would loved to see what your reaction would have been if your kid was a senior. Sad....very sad.
Well Mr Know it all I would have called for the ADs job!!!!! Frankly this year has been full of snow cancellations and the Coaches and AD were very aware of the number of matches Tournamanets etc... Despite the fact that we needed to reschedule and move around to find Tournamanets to replace the ones we could not have or go to because of the weather we and all the other programs did not loose track or count.....amazing isn't it. If you want to blame someone blame the person responsible for the infraction go after the AD. I absolutely encourage every parent and wrestler to ask for the ADs resignation in fact demand it!!!!!! Go to the School Board and demand they fire this AD and look at the head coach as well........
Plus your mischarectorization that we or I am "ok with this" shows just how absolutely clueless you are nobody is "OK" with this, nobody. But the rules are in place for everyone. If you do not like them use the democratic process and change them. Your School belongs to the WIAA correct? If that organization is so poor and so dysfunctional why do you belong?
By the way for the record I voted and support President Trump all the way........not that it matters but just thought I would clear the record.
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 18, 2017, 06:28:31 AM
I would be pissed at the AD and coach more than anything but I would also know that it was not an intentional mistake and they are likely very good people. I can get mad at my wife but still love her. I don't just get rid of her if she makes a mistake. There does not need to be an overreaction on the coach and AD either. I am sure they already feel punished enough
Agreed, mistakes happen from the best people, workers, bosses, coaches athletes etc...and rarely do minor infractions end their employment or result in suspension. Especially when they come forward and own up to the mistake. I guess where I differ from you is I am more bothered by the decision from the WIAA than the mistake by the AD/ coach.
Lets start a petition to Walker to get rid of the WIAA.
Quote from: woody53 on February 17, 2017, 02:32:48 PM
There have been many emotional comments made about what is going on in our sport. I ask all that have commented on this unique situation to look at the Program next week at State. Read Dave Anderson's letter. Look at what the WIAA provides for opportunity and structure. Look at the development of rules. And most important, look at the next page of those that are the Board of Control. The Executive Staff. and most importantly, the Advisory Council. Look farther into who your Coaches Committee Representative is. These are the heart and soul of the WIAA. Not just one person. After you do that, look into the rules and by laws of the WIAA. It is unfortunate what happened this week. In my opinion the WIAA followed the process.
Woody,
Good post, I don't agree with much of what the WIAA does, however I do believe they attempt to do what is right. Thank the good Lord above you donate all of your extra time or the State Tournament would really stink, Maybe in the office season someone can drive up to Point and teach them how to use Track Wrestling.
Thanks again for all you and other people do for our Sport!
Quote from: ramjet on February 17, 2017, 10:31:51 PM
LOL emotional responses to an organization who you agreed to join. Now because they have rules and enforced them they are the bad guys? Funny and BS about no skin in the game just the fact that you said that indicates you do. Again you do not have to be part of the WIAA the Board signs that contract every year go to the School Board tell them you are not in favor of being put of the organization. After all many of you do not belong to the WIAA for JR High Wrestling. Stop the complaining they broke the rules the WIAA followed protocols to give them the appeals process found them in violation and the punishment was sent down. Hold the AD accountable they scheduled the extra matches. Many of the other programs in the state followed the rules so as tough as this is hold the adults that are in charge accountable. When you sign the contract to be part of the WIAA YOU SIGN UP FOR THE RULES AND APPLICATION OF RULES AND PUNISHMENTS!!!!!! Grow up and be adult about this stop using emotion to rationalize.
It's a beautiful day in WI and I'm more than happy with the knowledge that I don't view the world through the obtuse optics that you do. :-*
seriously?? "You don't have to belong"??? That's the argument?? The answer is "if you don't like it, leave" is just silly.. sure, not belonging is an option, but not a realistic option. The comparison for middle school isn't really relevant.. there is little if any benefit for middle schools to belong to the WIAA. It's not possible to argue that the punishment is appropriate in this case without sounding silly.. yes rules should have been known and followed.. do you really expect every HS wrestler to understand the scheduling rules?? They are being punished as though they did know and willing violated the rules..