Participation numbers

[DocWrestling]

I would bet that over 75% of HS wrestlers cannot name a badger wrestler and have no clue what flowrestling is.

In all other sports a lot of the athletes know they are not the best and not that important but want to be part of a team.

The team concept is what is lost.  If wrestling is just an individual sport we will be doomed to these kinds of numbers.

We need to make duals matter.  Why?
1) Because it makes the team relevant
2) It gives a marginal wrestler that loses his match still a chance to be a winner if the team wins
3) It gives a marginal wrestler a chance to feel like he contributed to the team by a coach teaching and coaching up a wrestler about team points and saving the team points in a dual.  This does not happen a lot because a point or two seldom matters in any duals.

With 11 weight classes, the dominant teams will still be dominant and they will blow out teams, but in the 80% of all other duals it will tighten them up and make matches matter.

The most successful teams have always emphasized the team concept.  With 14 weight classes, the team concept is impossible to emphasize because duals are boring and the outcomes are inevitable.

11 weight classes will also make it more exciting for fans as it would increase the odds of higher profile matches.

I am perfectly fine with 14 weight classes for individual tournaments because those are "individual" and the team championship matters to so few teams

[DocWrestling]

Cutting any weight classes DOES take that opportunity away from any kid, regardless if you think he's a JV or varsity.

In every other sport with better participation numbers, JV and freshman teams are understood as good opportunities to learn and get better and EARN your spot on varsity at some point.

In wrestling we give every wrestler an award at every tournament so we might as well give everyone a varsity spot.

The goals should be to have a varsity and JV wrestler at every weight class so we have a sub at every weight.  Instead we just try to have enough to fill a varsity team.

[DocWrestling]

Then lets give everyone a medal and a varsity spot.  I think if you speak with coaches there are lots of kids that don't don't feel they are ready for varsity or feel like if they put them on varsity to get beaten up they will just quit.  There has to be a progression of earning it and not just given it because you weigh the right amount.

Many coaches could fill weight classes for duals but don't because a wrestler is not ready for varsity.  It should not be about just filling weight classes but filling them with experienced wrestlers that are ready.

With so many varsity spots we end up with no "JV" team.  So the JV wrestler is just an afterthought "exhibition" match.

You want to improve varsity wrestling you have to improve JV wrestling first.  Wrestle 6 minutes, have enough guys for a JV team.  JV weight classes should be lighter than varsity weight classes.

[Handles II]

8-man football in the state will have 18 more teams in it next fall. Football, in almost every state, recognises that for some schools, getting 11 varsity-caliber players on the field is almost impossible, sure, they could throw some kids in there who aren't ready, but that would be bad for the kid themselves and ultimately the team. They have figured out that by reducing the number of starting positions, the games can still be played at a competitive  level, which brings crowds to the game, excitement, etc.

I hate knowing the truth that football coaches are more proactive to the needs of the sport, the needs of their athletes than wrestling coaches. Statewide, fewer and fewer programs are having tackle football at young ages, and those that keep it are raising the starting ages for tackle football. They have seen that starting the kids early has actually had an overall negative affect on participation numbers in high school.

Hmm... Football 2, Wrestling 0.

We can...we HAVE to do better.

[Handles II]

8-man football in the state will have 18 more teams in it next fall. Football, in almost every state, recognises that for some schools, getting 11 varsity-caliber players on the field is almost impossible, sure, they could throw some kids in there who aren't ready, but that would be bad for the kid themselves and ultimately the team. They have figured out that by reducing the number of starting positions, the games can still be played at a competitive  level, which brings crowds to the game, excitement, etc.

I hate knowing the truth that football coaches are more proactive to the needs of the sport, the needs of their athletes than wrestling coaches. Statewide, fewer and fewer programs are having tackle football at young ages, and those that keep it are raising the starting ages for tackle football. They have seen that starting the kids early has actually had an overall negative affect on participation numbers in high school.

I'm ok with the "best version" of wrestling. Sitting and watching a dual with 6 forfeits isn't the "best version of wrestling" that we could have. Having kids get byes into the semi-finals isn't the "best version of wrestling" that we could have.

Hmm... Football 2, Wrestling 0.



We can...we HAVE to do better.

I would like to see that evidence.

Is it possible the 14 versus 11-man lineup discussion ISN'T really a conversation about how to fix participation, and instead it's about the best version of wrestling, given low participation?

For instance, in the 8-man football example, the story doesn't go "We had low numbers, played 8-man, and the numbers came up."

It goes "We had low numbers, found a version of football that works with those numbers, and we still have football."

I'm ok with the "best version" of wrestling. Sitting and watching a dual with 6 forfeits isn't the "best version of wrestling" that we could have. Having kids get byes into the semi-finals isn't the "best version of wrestling" that we could have.

As for football numbers and youth tackle, there's a google of articles about it. Read away.

[jeast]

Go to 2 divisions. Cut enrollment at mid point...about 880?  Do exact same as D1 does it now. Problem solved. Send top four to sectional from each regional. Send top two to state from each sectional.

[Numbers]

How does cutting weight classes help programs that don't have participation problems?  Regardless of which division having 14 weight classes gives opportunities to more kids.  Cutting the total number takes away from the kids.

It allows them to have a better varsity reserve team. 

If teams have varsity caliber talent, there are ways to get them varsity matches.

[DocWrestling]

The 8 man program in our area has higher numbers than they have ever had before.  They have discussed going back to 11-man because they have the numbers.  Those discussions have gone no where because nobody wants to go back to 11-man.  Why?

1) Numbers are only half the story.  Safety issue with putting more young kids not ready out there on varsity. Not unlike wrestling.  Roster make-up is also an issue.  11-man needs fewer big guys which are in short supply often. Not unlike wrestling needing guys at each spectrum of weight.
2) They know that tackle football is under attack and overall numbers are decreasing across the state with fears over head trauma.  The trend is not in their favor.  I think this trend is and will affect wrestling also with wrestling often being mentioned in these studies on head trauma.  Physical contact sports are under the microscope.
3) Competitiveness.  The 8-man team is competitive with those teams making games exciting and success draws in more numbers.  The start of a state tournament will only help.  If they went back to 11-man they know they would struggle for victories against more established programs
4) Fun-  kids are having more fun than ever and love the style of football.
4) More teams coming- sport is growing.  Only negative has been fewer teams so longer travel.  That greatly improves year to year.

11- weight class system would do a lot of the same especially for D2-D3 schools.  What if WIAA went to 4 divisions?  School chooses whether they want to do 11 weight classes or 14 weight class system and they have a D1 and a D2 in each division.  Sounds pretty good but won't work.  Why won't it work?  Because the overwhelmingly majority of schools when given the chance would choose to wrestle with 11 weight classes.  The 14 weigh class division would slowly decline with fewer teams and longer travel between the teams not unlike what 8-man football has been in the past few years.  I would guess that if schools were forced to declare and make a choice between being in 11-weight class division or 14 weight class division that 75% would choose 11-weight class system.  Probably more because even if they though they could fill 14 weight classes they would not want to be left in division with top wrestling schools only.

[Numbers]

Ghetto will come with his numbers and I have no problem showing that most teams cannot fill all the weights.  We are a D3 team and I feel I put more into our program than most do throughout the state but we generally do not fill 14 weights at the end of the year.  Some years we do....some years we don't.

Things like too many that weigh the same, injuries, grades make it difficult for any small school to fill all weights.  But at the end of the day the tournament series to me is great....plenty of great wrestlers at each weight in all divisions.

Our sport is like no other....we need every walk of life to fill a team....big guys...small guys...medium sized guys....its just part of what we do.  Is it easy? NO.  But I'm not ready to take any state title from anyone just because some teams couldn't fill their weight class.

Really?

What is a watered down state title worth in Wisconsin these days?  Maybe we should add a division 4 for boys wrestling.    Wow, more state wrestling champions just like that!  

So add 11 Division 4 state champs.  Subtract 9 champs (3 lost weight class champs from D1/2/3).  Net 2 more state champs!  Maybe this is the path to allowing super regionals?

(All this being said I would favor 12 weights instead of 11)

[Handles II]

One other factor to consider here. Historically, (70's-early 90's) when we had higher numbers of wrestlers (averaging around 15,000), we started adding more weight classes. I think that makes sense.
Our numbers have gone down statewide (and in almost all other midwest states but even places like NJ), since the late 90's, yet we aren't adjusting weight classes to fit our numbers (about 8,000 here in WI). That doesn't make sense.

[BDbacker]

8-man football in the state will have 18 more teams in it next fall. Football, in almost every state, recognises that for some schools, getting 11 varsity-caliber players on the field is almost impossible, sure, they could throw some kids in there who aren't ready, but that would be bad for the kid themselves and ultimately the team. They have figured out that by reducing the number of starting positions, the games can still be played at a competitive  level, which brings crowds to the game, excitement, etc.

I hate knowing the truth that football coaches are more proactive to the needs of the sport, the needs of their athletes than wrestling coaches. Statewide, fewer and fewer programs are having tackle football at young ages, and those that keep it are raising the starting ages for tackle football. They have seen that starting the kids early has actually had an overall negative affect on participation numbers in high school.

Hmm... Football 2, Wrestling 0.

We can...we HAVE to do better.

I would like to see that evidence.

Is it possible the 14 versus 11-man lineup discussion ISN'T really a conversation about how to fix participation, and instead it's about the best version of wrestling, given low participation?

For instance, in the 8-man football example, the story doesn't go "We had low numbers, played 8-man, and the numbers came up."

It goes "We had low numbers, found a version of football that works with those numbers, and we still have football."

LL I feel that take is spot on.

[ramjet]

Then lets give everyone a medal and a varsity spot.  I think if you speak with coaches there are lots of kids that don't don't feel they are ready for varsity or feel like if they put them on varsity to get beaten up they will just quit.  There has to be a progression of earning it and not just given it because you weigh the right amount.

Many coaches could fill weight classes for duals but don't because a wrestler is not ready for varsity.  It should not be about just filling weight classes but filling them with experienced wrestlers that are ready.

With so many varsity spots we end up with no "JV" team.  So the JV wrestler is just an afterthought "exhibition" match.

You want to improve varsity wrestling you have to improve JV wrestling first.  Wrestle 6 minutes, have enough guys for a JV team.  JV weight classes should be lighter than varsity weight classes.

If you need further proof of this watch the Crandon Regional wrestlers go into the Bonduel sectional Saturday. Many who got through would be JV wrestlers on most teams the three or four seniors have a shot the others will not fair near as well.

JV opportunities are paramount to making wrestling in Wisconsin more competitive. 14 weight classes detract from development and add to a false hope built on FF and byes.

[ramjet]

Two divisions really some of these D3 schools have only 200 kids 9-12 some even less. I am not sure what that would accomplish. Heck the why not just back to you he division .....

[jeast]

Two divisions really some of these D3 schools have only 200 kids 9-12 some even less. I am not sure what that would accomplish. Heck the why not just back to you he division .....

I think Fennimore, Stratford and Mineral Point would argue that they are able to put out a competitive team regardless of enrollment.

[wrastle63]

Two divisions really some of these D3 schools have only 200 kids 9-12 some even less. I am not sure what that would accomplish. Heck the why not just back to you he division .....

I think Fennimore, Stratford and Mineral Point would argue that they are able to put out a competitive team regardless of enrollment.

Yea it can be done, but those are exceptional teams. If you take the average D3 team they probably fill 9-10 weight classes.