D1 182

All Blue · February 23, 2015, 09:36:37 AM

Long time watcher.....first time poster here. Just looking for thoughts on the D1 182 pound bracket. Not taking anything away from these kids because we all know every wrestler that makes state is talented...but the bracket seems loaded heavy on the bottom side to me. Sure would like to see a few of these match ups later on vs. right out of the gate. I know its luck of the draw,but sad that individuals that should be there at the end may not even place. Even more magnified by the fact that the bracket Gods got it right at 170 and got Breske and Reinhart split the way they were supposed to...one on top and one on the bottom. Again, not whining or complaining here, just wondering if anyone else had the same thoughts. Good luck to all wrestlers....thanks for keeping the tradition alive and strong!

Han Solo · February 23, 2015, 10:08:42 AM

Yeah the bottom side is tougher for sure. That's the way it goes though. Too bad that Waddell and Wileman are wrestling right away. However, the #1 ranked kid is on the top side.

Handles II · February 23, 2015, 10:15:02 AM

Coaches need to insist on double elimination to the WWCA and A.D.'s, A.D.'s and WWCA need to insist on double elimination to the WIAA.
Then much of the concerns regarding bracketing should go away. Seeding is not needed. Winning and losing is part of the sport.

justwrestle · February 23, 2015, 11:00:45 AM

Seed the sectional champions!!

boowrestle · February 23, 2015, 11:17:48 AM

Justwrestle how would you suggest you seed the sectional champs??Records(a lot of kids thru out the brackets with inflated records because haven't wrestled in any of the tougher tournaments),rankings(that wont work either),there is no easy or right way to seed the state tournament.Sooner or later it comes down to 'you need to beat the best to be the best"!!!Let the kids decide it on the mat!Good luck to all the competitors this weekend.

imnofish · February 23, 2015, 11:22:45 AM

One needs to look no further than the 106 weight class of the Amery sectional, to see how fruitless seeding can be. One of the lowest ranked kids (a second place regional finisher) beat the top three higher ranked kids, including one who had beaten him 3 times this year, to win the title. The kid had a great day and no amount of seeding could have stopped him from turning the weight class on its head.

wrestle84 · February 23, 2015, 11:25:01 AM

It is only an opinion that one side of the bracket is stronger. Settle it on the mat.

Paul Harvey · February 23, 2015, 11:28:01 AM

Quote from: boowrestle on February 23, 2015, 11:17:48 AM
Justwrestle how would you suggest you seed the sectional champs??Records(a lot of kids thru out the brackets with inflated records because haven't wrestled in any of the tougher tournaments),rankings(that wont work either),there is no easy or right way to seed the state tournament.Sooner or later it comes down to 'you need to beat the best to be the best"!!!Let the kids decide it on the mat!Good luck to all the competitors this weekend.

They could come up with the criteria that would get it close. Is it going to be perfect, NO, but it would be a lot better than what we have now (ie. 160, 180) With your logic why would we seed any tournament?

We see this argument every year which would lead you to believe we have an issue and folks are frustrated. I have no horse in any race but put me in the camp of those in favor of a change.....

jaguarwrestler · February 23, 2015, 11:49:16 AM

Quote from: All Blue on February 23, 2015, 09:36:37 AM
Long time watcher.....first time poster here. Just looking for thoughts on the D1 182 pound bracket. Not taking anything away from these kids because we all know every wrestler that makes state is talented...but the bracket seems loaded heavy on the bottom side to me. Sure would like to see a few of these match ups later on vs. right out of the gate. I know its luck of the draw,but sad that individuals that should be there at the end may not even place. Even more magnified by the fact that the bracket Gods got it right at 170 and got Breske and Reinhart split the way they were supposed to...one on top and one on the bottom. Again, not whining or complaining here, just wondering if anyone else had the same thoughts. Good luck to all wrestlers....thanks for keeping the tradition alive and strong!

who is it sad for? It is only "stacked" because top ranked wrestlers lost at sectionals and put themselves in a bad position. If the rankings hold then the outcome would be about the same as if it was seeded, if they don't hold I guess they where not as good as some think. Unless someone gets upset they should all be able to place. The only thing that is sad is not having double elimination, if they had that then everyone would finish where they should.

win % of top side = 81%
win % of bottom side = 82%

is one really easier than the next?

DocWrestling · February 23, 2015, 11:52:25 AM

I am in the club that you either seed every tournament or don't seed any. The rationale is the same for every tournament.
"It is too hard" it is not an excuse. It is hard at very tournament and no tournament has seeded it perfectly based on final results. Some wrestler will blow up the seeds and that is great. This is true in many sports. Tennis seeds their state tournament.

For those that say settle it on the mat, does that mean if it is seeded then it won't be settled on the mat?

It will never be 100% correct but that does not mean it is wrong. You can wrestle these state tournament brackets every weekend starting over and for most you would get a different result every weekend. Some wrestlers are going to have "their" weekend where it all happens and they are the state champions. They get the title forever but in reality there are other wrestlers that were just as talented but will finish just short this weekend. Remember that the great majority of state champions crowned this weekend lost at some point this year. There are tons of these scenarios- Wrestler A beats Wrestler B at regionals, Wrestler B beats wrestler A at sectionals and in some cases Wrestler A is not going to state.

Every tournament we run in this state is seeded and then double elimination. Why we don't do that for the state tournament series is beyond me! And yes I I think I would re-seed sectionals also.

jaguarwrestler · February 23, 2015, 12:01:35 PM

Quote from: DocWrestling on February 23, 2015, 11:52:25 AM
I am in the club that you either seed every tournament or don't seed any. The rationale is the same for every tournament.
"It is too hard" it is not an excuse. It is hard at very tournament and no tournament has seeded it perfectly based on final results. Some wrestler will blow up the seeds and that is great. This is true in many sports. Tennis seeds their state tournament.

For those that say settle it on the mat, does that mean if it is seeded then it won't be settled on the mat?

It will never be 100% correct but that does not mean it is wrong. You can wrestle these state tournament brackets every weekend starting over and for most you would get a different result every weekend. Some wrestlers are going to have "their" weekend where it all happens and they are the state champions. They get the title forever but in reality there are other wrestlers that were just as talented but will finish just short this weekend. Remember that the great majority of state champions crowned this weekend lost at some point this year. There are tons of these scenarios- Wrestler A beats Wrestler B at regionals, Wrestler B beats wrestler A at sectionals and in some cases Wrestler A is not going to state.

Every tournament we run in this state is seeded and then double elimination. Why we don't do that for the state tournament series is beyond me! And yes I I think I would re-seed sectionals also.

rather not go through another year of "we need to seed the state tournament"

but why do we need to? to make it easier for the best wrestlers? better for fans if seeds holds?

re-seed Sectionals? so screw the guy that had an amazing Regional and toss him out against a top guy first round?

Regionals are not fair or balanced, Sectionals are not fair or balanced... State is not fair or balanced... it is still great. Some regionals and sectionals are cupcakes compared to others. Many sectionals crush other sectionals in state points. One Regional could have 3-4 ranked kids and another none, one might have 8 kids in a bracket and another 4... fair?

The day I support seeding state will be the day after they have a 32 team super sectional with wrestle-backs to 4th and send top 4 to state. This will take away a lot of the randomness of the state series.

I have never left a state tournament thinking... man if they only had seeding our guy "might" have finished 2nd instead of 3rd... because truly 2nd place is the only position that might end up different without seeds.

Dale Einerson · February 23, 2015, 12:08:43 PM

Quote from: Paul Harvey on February 23, 2015, 11:28:01 AM
Quote from: boowrestle on February 23, 2015, 11:17:48 AM
Justwrestle how would you suggest you seed the sectional champs??Records(a lot of kids thru out the brackets with inflated records because haven't wrestled in any of the tougher tournaments),rankings(that wont work either),there is no easy or right way to seed the state tournament.Sooner or later it comes down to 'you need to beat the best to be the best"!!!Let the kids decide it on the mat!Good luck to all the competitors this weekend.

They could come up with the criteria that would get it close. Is it going to be perfect, NO, but it would be a lot better than what we have now (ie. 160, 180) With your logic why would we seed any tournament?

We see this argument every year which would lead you to believe we have an issue and folks are frustrated. I have no horse in any race but put me in the camp of those in favor of a change.....

What is wrong with two outstanding wrestlers meeting on a Thursday night?

What is the real difference between a 2nd and a 3rd place?

And this from the Father of a highly ranked kid that ran into 4-timer Cibula on a Thursday night. My kid got 3rd that year...everybody is fine.

I am also the Father of another highly ranked kid that didn't get out of Sectionals when the eventual State Champion and eventual 4th placer were the two to go to State. Everybody is fine...

If you want drama for 3 days, you have it. Sometimes the marquee match ups happen in the Quarterfinals, sometimes in the Semi-finals and sometimes Finals. Truth be told, the mat is where it is decided and that is as it should be.

The ranking committee has ranked every kid that qualified for State. Just look at the number of previously unranked kids in the top 16, and the rankings are only a week old at this time. Right now every kid has an equal opportunity of making the podium; somehow that is not fair?

I don't think the argument is that seeding is too hard, I think that settling it on the mat is so easy; fair; rewarding.

The State Tournament is seeded. Regionals are seeded; regionals are the State Tournament.

maggie · February 23, 2015, 12:12:32 PM

Jag, would the seeding also take in account that in that one wrestler never lost this yr to a Wis wrestler? whose only losses have came at the hands of top rankING wrestlers from OH and ILL? ....

DocWrestling · February 23, 2015, 12:12:57 PM

I am really not the guy who is going to fight for seeding state because I don't know that it is truly needed but I don't like the arguments used against it.

I personally think seeding at state is needed more than other tournaments for the sole reason that there is not double elimination.

It all comes down to one question then...

Why do we seed any tournament?

Mack · February 23, 2015, 12:14:22 PM

I understand arguments both in favor and against seeding. I haven't read anything that helps me understand what could be wrong with double elimination. What IS the reasoning for not having double elimination at state?