Skill levels at tourneys

briggs · February 12, 2016, 02:07:22 PM

I have to agree with Handles on the emotion. This is one of the reasons I started this thread, my kid LOVES wrestling but wrestling does not love him.(so to speak) He struggles with the coordination etc.. He tells me "Dad, I am a wrestler, I will always be a wrestler" To lose kids like this because someone has not been truthful is a discredit to our sport. We have to work together as clubs to make sure we are moving towards the right goal, IMO

Ghetto · February 12, 2016, 02:19:25 PM

Quote from: briggs on February 12, 2016, 02:07:22 PM
my kid LOVES wrestling but wrestling does not love him.(so to speak) He struggles with the coordination etc..

Same here. And I think that my son, because I coach, has expectations that he will be great. Even if I don't put those expectations on him, he/his friends put that on him without my help.

Again, the beginners tournaments are a great idea. I asked if there was a way for the last tournament to determine whether or not a kid was actually a beginner. He said no.

I'm going to look into that. I think, like others have said earlier in this thread, that there should be a way.

TeamJ · February 12, 2016, 02:45:27 PM

I believe it boils down to the tournaments spending the energy and time going thru the brackets to double check the levels for accuracy and making sure the brackets are as even as possible, regardless of ranking criterion/wording. Kudos to the Portage one to do it.

As a parent of a child that has been thru both sides--a beginner/average getting creamed by "excellent" (or liars--yes it happens all the time), and now an "excellent" son spending the whole day for 3-30 second matches, I agree change will help the growth of the sport. In both occasions I would have loved an email or call the night before saying what the bracket would have been like and the option to opt out--but then the club would have lost a whopping $15-$20 (and time). Yet, I will never attend one of those tournaments that it occurred in and let anyone that will listen know it also.

Handles II · February 12, 2016, 03:02:49 PM

Quote from: Ghetto on February 12, 2016, 02:19:25 PM
Quote from: briggs on February 12, 2016, 02:07:22 PM
my kid LOVES wrestling but wrestling does not love him.(so to speak) He struggles with the coordination etc..

Same here. And I think that my son, because I coach, has expectations that he will be great. Even if I don't put those expectations on him, he/his friends put that on him without my help.

Again, the beginners tournaments are a great idea. I asked if there was a way for the last tournament to determine whether or not a kid was actually a beginner. He said no.

I'm going to look into that. I think, like others have said earlier in this thread, that there should be a way.

Ghetto, this might be a good read for a guy like you, and perhaps even for your son (depending on age, etc.)

http://kjblack.blogspot.com/2016/02/my-first-youth-wrestling-experience-as.html?spref=fb&m=1

babywhales · February 12, 2016, 03:04:39 PM

Quote from: Ghetto on February 12, 2016, 02:19:25 PM

I asked if there was a way for the last tournament to determine whether or not a kid was actually a beginner. He said no.

I always thought the USA Cards should list the years a child was a member on the card. I believe this would be another way to add value to the card holder and the tournaments that require the card.

aarons23 · February 12, 2016, 03:31:22 PM

I never get the complaint about high school refs.....most do a fine job. We want to grow the sport and we also have a shortage of refs. What a great way to get our high school kids a chance to give back....and learn a skill that we are short on. Are they going to miss some calls? Maybe even little johny losses because of it.....big deal....they will live. Go watch high school basketball with actual WIAA refs......ten times worse.

briggs · February 12, 2016, 03:40:23 PM

Ghetto, you and I are in the same boat. I coach and have had success in my own career as a wrestler. Exspectations are high for him, I just tell him to work hard and have fun. Outsiders ask, "I bet you really want him to be a great wrestler?" I usually answer with no, I want him to take the lessons from wrestling and become a great person, DR, dentist, teacher, etc..

imnofish · February 12, 2016, 07:03:25 PM

Quote from: briggs on February 12, 2016, 03:40:23 PM
Ghetto, you and I are in the same boat. I coach and have had success in my own career as a wrestler. Exspectations are high for him, I just tell him to work hard and have fun. Outsiders ask, "I bet you really want him to be a great wrestler?" I usually answer with no, I want him to take the lessons from wrestling and become a great person, DR, dentist, teacher, etc..

+1,000,000...

bigoil · February 12, 2016, 10:29:03 PM

A suggestion that you may not like is to not compete.

I have a friend at work who's son keeps losing to a kid from our club. Why is he a beginner? I'm not sure but ask and the answer is he is, just a good beginner. Second year wrestler in the 1-2 but is at his 4th meet ever. They are going to move him up but they weren't sandbagging, he has actually wrestled in less than half the matches my friends kid did.

If you wait a couple of years and only wrestle your home tournament, you could definitely reduce the risk of being over matched, watch his development at practice and see how those kids do in tourneys. Our club likes kids to enter regionals that are on the MS team, my son had just started that year and I didn't want his season to end that way and he didn't want to go so it was an easy decision to find a local tournament that same weekend.

imnofish · February 12, 2016, 11:24:49 PM

Quote from: Handles II on February 12, 2016, 03:02:49 PM
Quote from: Ghetto on February 12, 2016, 02:19:25 PM
Quote from: briggs on February 12, 2016, 02:07:22 PM
my kid LOVES wrestling but wrestling does not love him.(so to speak) He struggles with the coordination etc..

Same here. And I think that my son, because I coach, has expectations that he will be great. Even if I don't put those expectations on him, he/his friends put that on him without my help.

Again, the beginners tournaments are a great idea. I asked if there was a way for the last tournament to determine whether or not a kid was actually a beginner. He said no.

I'm going to look into that. I think, like others have said earlier in this thread, that there should be a way.

Ghetto, this might be a good read for a guy like you, and perhaps even for your son (depending on age, etc.)

http://kjblack.blogspot.com/2016/02/my-first-youth-wrestling-experience-as.html?spref=fb&m=1

Handles II, this is a great read. I copied it for my son, since he has a couple of little guys who are starting to dabble in wrestling a bit. Thanks for posting it!

padre · February 13, 2016, 03:49:20 AM

In all honesty what's the worst that happens? Beginner Timmy gets pinned? It's not the end of the world and there are actually too many kids that go to tournaments and have 0 clue how to wrestle yet. Coaches should stress practices over meets if kids aren't ready to compete. If a coach is honest I think parents would wait a while instead of throwing them out there and expecting good things to happen....because they aren't going to. I'm not saying new kids shouldn't go to meets...but understand it may not go well before going in.

We've had a high amount of kids go to state over the years...very few were excellent wrestlers at that point of their career. If a kid is real good with a headlock in 4th grade and pins a bunch of kids is he actually excellent? I've had some downright BAD wrestlers make state due to how the weights ended up. Have had kids qualify without wrestling. We are in such a rush to list kids as excellent and they aren't. Your perception of a kids ability may be different than the person who actually knows the kid well enough to make a better judgement. Maybe we should have levels of beginner so the bottom end of beginners doesn't wrestle average kids. When an overmatched kid in my club gets beat I just tell them now you know you have a lot of work to do. Not going to argue with someone on what level I think they are.

As far as high school refs...go to tournaments with a successful high school program and you will most likely get very good high school refs.

imnofish · February 13, 2016, 07:57:08 AM

I think high school refs can do a pretty good job, if coaches or local WIAA refs take the time to train them. Problems do arise if you just assume that wrestlers know how to officiate. Being a competitor in a sport is not the same thing as officiating it. Same with coaching. My biggest concern is for wrestlers' safety, so when I would train our high school wrestlers to officiate, I would devote extra attention to illegal holds, potentially dangerous situations, etc. Schedule your high school wrestlers to help with middle school or youth practices; include supervised officiating in that setting. Do the same for your table help, if possible. Time and effort devoted to these will pay big dividends later.

bkraus · February 16, 2016, 10:03:02 AM

My osn wrestled in his second ever tournament this weekend and entered the tourney 0-4 on his life. It was an 8 man bracket and there was one kid labeled good, 3 average and 4 beginners. I was surprised when the kid labeled good finished 7th. My son actually beat him in the second round for his first win (now 1-7 in his brief career). I do think that kid was over rated by whoever filled it out for him, so it can go either way.

I am just glad my son loves wrestling and has a lot of fun doing it. It is funny watching him, 'cuz he smiles the entire time while on the mat no matter what happens. It is refreshing considering all the kids you see crying coming off the mat these days.

missinghome · February 16, 2016, 10:24:20 AM

Great thread. I believe the reason for the decline in high school wrestling participation is because of this exact topic. My idea.
1) have 2 divisions at a tournament. One would be a 4 man round robin for the less skilled wrestlers (that's the term I would use), and the other be an 8 man bracket for everybody else.
2) I would also have weight classes for the 8 man and once the bracket is full you can't get in (all preregistration) Just do a weight class every 5 lbs or so and then combine 2 to make a full 8 man if you have to.
Although the current system was started with good intention the way tournaments are run now is detrimental to the sport of wrestling. Everybody does not need a trophy. Every one of us know multiple kids that have been wrestling for 4 to 5 years that still put down beginner. So every weekend they go get another trophy at another youth tournament. Remind me again how that is preparing them for high school, or even there parent for that matter. Youth sports is suppose to be there to prepare kids for the high school level not give them false hope.
Do other sports do this? Do youth basketball tournaments have beginners, average, or excellent brackets? Do youth football teams always play teams at there same level? How about track..... OK all the slower runners to the starting line?
I wish someone would interview every high school kid that makes the state tournament this year, and track there youth journey and how they did it. I would bet there were not a lot of 4th and 5th year wrestlers putting down beginner.

My second suggestion would be a simple fix for our current system. Make what they put down public. Put it on the chart that hangs on the wall. Let the young wrestler take home the chart that says beginner behind his/her name. If they are truly a beginner the wrestler or mom and dad for that matter will not be embarrassed to have that written behind there name.

briggs · February 16, 2016, 11:03:41 AM

really like the idea of having their skill level posted. My wife an I have really not subjected our kids to a ton of tournaments, we use the grade level for the number of tourneys they attend. 1st grade gets to go to one tourney, 2nd grader gets two etc.. So the experience is really important to them, I do agree that maybe they should not compete if they are not having fun etc..