2020-21 Line-Up

[npope]

Similar results for Year 2 of the Bono era versus year 23 of the BD era isn't even close to the same thing. That was BDs ceiling; this is Bono's floor

Please come back on here and rub my nose in it when Bono and crew are standing on the podium holding a trophy - will be glad to hear from you then.

I'll be too busy celebrating than to care to rub your nose in it.

Me too

[npope]

Not Complaining - just saying they haven't tuned the corner yet, as some might suggest. As a man of numbers Luke...[sic]

And all that is fine by me - the guys are doing the very best they can, as are Bono and crew. I just think some folks are getting swayed a bit because of the heighten excitement around the program (which is real, valid, and palpable). All I am sayin' is that give it another year or two before people start making proclamations. If Bono can't pull in another one or two AA caliber guys before next season, next year will not stack up well even against this year's results. Weiler is a good get, but still just a borderline placer. Badgers need another one or two like that that actually blossom in their season at Wisconsin.

So, to be clear - I have no problems or complaints about the Badger guys nor the coaches - they are what they are and are doing all they can do. I do have problems with some fans who were happy to skewer BD for similar results and now wear rose colored glasses.

I've got a number: 4th.

The Badgers best finish at the NCAA tournament ever (*EVER* ever) is 4th place. We did it in 1976 & 1978 under Kleven, as well as in 2010, under Barry Davis.

This year, heading into the NCAA Tournament, we were ranked as the 5th best tournament team, according to Flo. That Bono, in his second season, was projected to have Wisconsin's fourth best season in the program's history doesn't really jive with "Hasn't turned the corner yet."

About how next year will "will not stack up well even against this year's results," if it does stack up favorably to this year, it will mean it is our best season ever.

Since when do you deal with conjecture, Luke? You are sounding worse than a politician. "Projected" Really? Projected? Granted, no one can know what what coulda-shoulda-woulda been. We do know what the Big Ten results were (not conjecture). Heading into the 2020 meet, the Badgers had a 4-5 record and were in 10th place according to the dual records  (with a loss to MSU no less!) and actually finished in ninth place in the tournament. After knowing the rankings and expectations for both individuals and as a team at the beginning of the year compared with those same rankings at the end, and seeing the Badgers perform at the Big Ten meet (the closest thing to the NCAA meet this year), your prognostication (based on Flo suggesting a #5 finish at the NCAA meet...a prognostication made prior to the Big Ten meet, BTW) is that we were in line for "the fourth best finish in Badger history." Really? You are doing a very good job of cherry picking facts in order to arrive at a predetermined conclusion that you have.

You can find all of the numbers you want from this year; you can turn them upside down, sideways, and even inside out. Please do so and then come back and tell me that the Badgers were destined for a fifth place finish at the NCAA meet. You will simply damage your credibility as a man of facts, Luke.

Look, this all feels like a little brother jumping into a fray and sticking up for his bigger brother when somebody is picking on him. I'm saying there's no need for all of that. All this "bully" is sayin' is that "that cake ain't done baking yet, so don't nobody try to tell me it is - cause I've tasted it." Give it more time in the oven and taste it later.

[npope]

For the Big Tens, our second best wrestler got a concussion and couldn't wrestle a single match.

If you're holding that against Bono, your opinion is no longer needed here.

Luke, excuse me, but I don't think you have yet been promoted to king of the forum - so relax. As I have said multiple times in this thread (please read), I have no issues with Bono, his coaches, the wrestlers, etc. My issues are with posters and some of their opinions. I am holding nothing against Bono - geeeez. You are relatively new to the forum, so you haven't been here 15-20 years listening the BD debates, so you can be forgiven for not having a basis for comparison. But here it is - for many many years BD had a collection of talent that had potential, almost each and every year. In inevitably, some guys would under perform, or another guy would get hurt, yada, yada, yada. After a decade or two of that the patience of some posters wore thin, every year it was the same story...except when they took fourth - people just dismiss that as a fluke and ignore it. I get their frustration and that's fine - a pattern was established. I look at this year and see another year just like the BD years. Some folks get on here and suggest that there is no semblance to the BD years and I am saying things look pretty familiar. Another poster said that this past year was Bono's floor while it would have been BD's ceiling. If that be true, please tell me which former national titlist Bono is bringing in next year as a transfer? That poster seems to think that kind of an event is going to be a regular occurrence - because this is Bono's floor. Isn't that the correct interpretation of the floor/ceiling analogy? That things like that are always going to be happening in the Bono regime?

That doesn't mean I am down on Bono and crew but rather, posters who can't see it simply refuse to consider the possibility that factual outcomes have yet to suggest much has changed in terms of on the mat outcomes - despite facts to the contrary.

I admit the jury is still out on Bono and his team...I don't know why others (like you) are so unwilling to acknowledge the same. Just give it some time...or take your opinion and go home because nobody wants to hear it here (Now doesn't that sound dumb and pretentious on my part? Consider how it sounds when you say it.)

[wrestlemania]

"If this was a Barry Davis-coached team I would agree with you. But since we were told we're going "all in" and "next year is now" and "the season begins now", I'm sorry, I just can't help but be disappointed. And what's fueling this is way too many comments about from people either there at the meet or watched on TV and are using terms like "disinterested", "bored" "flat" "burned out" "didn't bring it." "wanting the season over with" etc. etc.  to describe Badger wrestlers. Actually, disappointed isn't the word I should use. "Disturbed" is better term to describe how I feel."

I wrote this at the end of the B1G meet, which is the only concrete piece of evidence of where the team was at in its wrestling for this past season. We don't know how the Badgers would have done if Wick wrestled. The best guess is fifth place and one can argue his absence affected the rest of the team's performance whether consciously or not.  Nonetheless the performances of the other wrestlers there were pretty uneven, some good, some to mean and some not-so-good. But the terms used above didn't just apply to the conference meet but their efforts in several dual meets this past season, both individually and as a team.  If we wish to imagine this squad placing in the Top 10 of the NCAA meet I will say this: on paper, yes, they had the talent to do so if they wrestled up to their abilities and were healthy and the rankings reflected this. I could see Wick, Hillger, Gross, Moran, Martin and maybe even Sebastian as All-Americans and that would be a very good national tournament for UW.  On paper. But in the matches that were actually wrestled leading up to the NCAA's (especially against MSU, Northern Iowa and the B1G meet), there was no  good indication or trends showing this would actually be so. It's just positive thinking and nothing more.

So we don't know what would have happened and it's useless to speculate other than it was a missed opportunity to put a nice capper on the season and show with concrete results that UW is on the upswing. That's no reflection on Coach Bono and no one is holding anything against him because it would be stupid to do so. But I agree with npope "The cake ain't baked yet" and when it comes to the challenges of recruiting and fundraising in creating a powerhouse collegiate wrestling program, we find Coach Bono dealing with the same challenges previous UW coaches have had to deal with. It ain't easy and what npope and I also agree on is those previous coaches, including Barry Davis, should be cut a little slack from some fans when it comes to evaluation of their tenures given those challenges.

The worst thing thing that can happen, I think everyone can agree, is after some time Coach Bono concludes it can't be done here and goes to another school, or settles down into a long tenure of "well, we'll make the best out of what we've got", which I believe is the biggest complaint fans had of Davis for the many years he was at UW. There's no question Coach Bono has raised expectations and standards in many areas of the program that were much needed and that has fans excited again about the possibilities for this program but that also has to be reflected in the wrestlers as well. That's why hearing terms like "burned out" and "flat" and "waiting for the season to be over with" was so disappointing, because that's not what we as fans were expecting when Coach Bono came aboard. Bringing in transfers every season no doubt is an easy way to fill holes in the line-up but it's not a long-term solution. A long-term solution is improving the quality of wrestling in this state so that there is not just top-end talent to give scholarships to but also walk-ons who can provide good competition and depth in the wrestling room. UW needs talent but it also needs numbers as well, spread all across the weight classes and Coach Bono needs to insist to the UWAD that he has to have at least 35 wrestlers on the roster to make it happen.  This effort will also require a lot of grassroots hard work with the high school coaches in this state and other to improve overall quality of in-state wrestling so that's not just one wrestler who is a national champion but a whole bunch who are champions and All-Americans. That's how you win a national championship as a program. If the bulk of the roster continues to be out-of-state wrestlers (which are more expensive to recruit) and transfers for one or two seasons, I don't believe it's going to change anything.

To that end, I think it's very, very important than UW find an in-state wrestler who can win that national title. I think it would change a lot of perceptions about the program around the state and really enthuse a lot of people if it happens.

[npope]

After knowing the rankings and expectations for both individuals and as a team at the beginning of the year compared with those same rankings at the end, and seeing the Badgers perform at the Big Ten meet (the closest thing to the NCAA meet this year), your prognostication (based on Flo suggesting a #5 finish at the NCAA meet...a prognostication made prior to the Big Ten meet, BTW) is that we were in line for "the fourth best finish in Badger history." Really? You are doing a very good job of cherry picking facts in order to arrive at a predetermined conclusion that you have.

Luke the only thing I said that wasn't a fact (that was an error) was the timing of Flos prediction.

As for your feigned indignation, don't be such a inappropriate term.

You don't have to make it personal and indeed, you don't run the forum and get to tell people they aren't welcome to post just because you disagree with them.

[wrestlemania]

"PS - The Badgers were (4-5) in duals? Would you like to know where the 4 Big Ten teams they didn't wrestle this season placed at Big Tens? 6th, 11th, 12th, and 14th. That we wrestled the toughest schedule of all teams in the Big Ten this year matters, but I'm certain, at this point, that actual facts are irrelevant to you.

But the facts also show UW lost to a (at the time) 6-9 Michigan State squad which was 1-7 in the B1G at home. Yes, a starter was hurt (Moran), I understand that, but it again goes back to lack of depth and frankly the fact that other wrestlers didn't step up in terms of getting need wins or bonus points to compensate. It's been a recurring problem in the UW program for a long time going back over many coaching tenures: either someone was hurt or someone didn't perform to expectations or whoever filled in couldn't get the job done. All the pieces not in the same place at the same time. When this changes, the UW program will be what we want it to be: champions. 

[wrastle63]

After knowing the rankings and expectations for both individuals and as a team at the beginning of the year compared with those same rankings at the end, and seeing the Badgers perform at the Big Ten meet (the closest thing to the NCAA meet this year), your prognostication (based on Flo suggesting a #5 finish at the NCAA meet...a prognostication made prior to the Big Ten meet, BTW) is that we were in line for "the fourth best finish in Badger history." Really? You are doing a very good job of cherry picking facts in order to arrive at a predetermined conclusion that you have.

Luke the only thing I said that wasn't a fact (that was an error) was the timing of Flos prediction.

As for your feigned indignation, don't be such a inappropriate term.

You don't have to make it personal and indeed, you don't run the forum and get to tell people they aren't welcome to post just because you disagree with them.

Yea countless times Luke tries to make deals and get people to leave the forum because "we" don't need you. Who is the we? The point of the forum is to talk/discuss/debate wrestling.

[npope]

Nat, I was right there with you when people were criticizing Barry Davis. My complaint was always that people were a lot more willing to criticize than they were to show up and help. Wrestling without home-mat advantage is ridiculous for a major program.

But, for you to equate this season we just completed to a Barry Davis is not supported by facts.

Let's say, instead of finishing 5th, they would finished 8th, for argument's sake. (Remember, this is not a "What if" trying to change the outcome of matches that took place. This is just saying what if they would have gotten to wrestle a tournament that was cancelled. A big difference.)

Eighth place would have been good for Barry Davis's second best season ever (of 24).

You can't eat the cake yet. But, the only thing preventing it is a global pandemic that forced you to leave it in the oven.

I said that it was like the BD years in that the potential was left unfulfilled - not in terms of placement. As I stated, with the BD teams, there was always some unfulfilled potential - something left on the table, some important cog getting injured, etc., either during the season or at tournament time. It was like the Swallows of Capistrano, you could bank on it. I am not a betting man, but I would have put some money down on things going wrong at the wrong time for the BD Badgers. And again (seems like I have to continue restating things), I had no problems with BD and the team results - my priorities were elsewhere - I am just setting up the parallel here to support my observation on the current year. I want to meet the guy on this forum that, coming off of the Big Ten meet this year, who was saying, "Oh yeah, we got those big dogs attention now and we are going to do some real damage at the NCAA!" I felt more like it was a wake than a Second Coming - more of the same. Luke, you can sit there and say that, based on the Badger Big Ten performance, you were expecting a number five finish at the NCAA. But if you did, I would politely call you deluded or Bono's brother-in-law.

[Numbers]

2020 was likely only going to be the second best Badger finish at NCAA's in the last 30 years.  Yeah-this Bono guy has not done anything special

[wrastle63]

2020 was likely only going to be the second best Badger finish at NCAA's in the last 30 years.  Yeah-this Bono guy has not done anything special

Can argue that the Badgers don't get a trophy. Gross takes 2nd/3rd, Wick AA, Hillger AA, and then no one else but even with those points we still do better than 9th.

[dad 2 5]

For the Big Tens, our second best wrestler got a concussion and couldn't wrestle a single match.

If you're holding that against Bono, your opinion is no longer needed here.

Luke, excuse me, but I don't think you have yet been promoted to king of the forum - so relax. As I have said multiple times in this thread (please read), I have no issues with Bono, his coaches, the wrestlers, etc. My issues are with posters and some of their opinions. I am holding nothing against Bono - geeeez. You are relatively new to the forum, so you haven't been here 15-20 years listening the BD debates, so you can be forgiven for not having a basis for comparison. But here it is - for many many years BD had a collection of talent that had potential, almost each and every year. In inevitably, some guys would under perform, or another guy would get hurt, yada, yada, yada. After a decade or two of that the patience of some posters wore thin, every year it was the same story...except when they took fourth - people just dismiss that as a fluke and ignore it. I get their frustration and that's fine - a pattern was established. I look at this year and see another year just like the BD years. Some folks get on here and suggest that there is no semblance to the BD years and I am saying things look pretty familiar. Another poster said that this past year was Bono's floor while it would have been BD's ceiling. If that be true, please tell me which former national titlist Bono is bringing in next year as a transfer? That poster seems to think that kind of an event is going to be a regular occurrence - because this is Bono's floor. Isn't that the correct interpretation of the floor/ceiling analogy? That things like that are always going to be happening in the Bono regime?

That doesn't mean I am down on Bono and crew but rather, posters who can't see it simply refuse to consider the possibility that factual outcomes have yet to suggest much has changed in terms of on the mat outcomes - despite facts to the contrary.

I admit the jury is still out on Bono and his team...I don't know why others (like you) are so unwilling to acknowledge the same. Just give it some time...or take your opinion and go home because nobody wants to hear it here (Now doesn't that sound dumb and pretentious on my part? Consider how it sounds when you say it.)

I agree with you Nate!
Jury still out and in a wait and see but right now I am not seeing what I had hoped to see.
There are way too many excuses for this year, Moran injury and never came back to last season or this year's expectation. Wick injury was untimely, others sliding backwards slightly. Over training last year still a question in my mind.
I know I will get a tongue lashing from some but I am going to way to see what things look like in a couple of years.
I am also very interesting in Coach Bono's ability to replace his coaching staff as that is always a moving piece of a coaches puzzle. We have nothing to go by right now.

I am still very hopeful but cautious

[BuckyMatt]

For the Big Tens, our second best wrestler got a concussion and couldn't wrestle a single match.

If you're holding that against Bono, your opinion is no longer needed here.

Luke, excuse me, but I don't think you have yet been promoted to king of the forum - so relax. As I have said multiple times in this thread (please read), I have no issues with Bono, his coaches, the wrestlers, etc. My issues are with posters and some of their opinions. I am holding nothing against Bono - geeeez. You are relatively new to the forum, so you haven't been here 15-20 years listening the BD debates, so you can be forgiven for not having a basis for comparison. But here it is - for many many years BD had a collection of talent that had potential, almost each and every year. In inevitably, some guys would under perform, or another guy would get hurt, yada, yada, yada. After a decade or two of that the patience of some posters wore thin, every year it was the same story...except when they took fourth - people just dismiss that as a fluke and ignore it. I get their frustration and that's fine - a pattern was established. I look at this year and see another year just like the BD years. Some folks get on here and suggest that there is no semblance to the BD years and I am saying things look pretty familiar. Another poster said that this past year was Bono's floor while it would have been BD's ceiling. If that be true, please tell me which former national titlist Bono is bringing in next year as a transfer? That poster seems to think that kind of an event is going to be a regular occurrence - because this is Bono's floor. Isn't that the correct interpretation of the floor/ceiling analogy? That things like that are always going to be happening in the Bono regime?

That doesn't mean I am down on Bono and crew but rather, posters who can't see it simply refuse to consider the possibility that factual outcomes have yet to suggest much has changed in terms of on the mat outcomes - despite facts to the contrary.

I admit the jury is still out on Bono and his team...I don't know why others (like you) are so unwilling to acknowledge the same. Just give it some time...or take your opinion and go home because nobody wants to hear it here (Now doesn't that sound dumb and pretentious on my part? Consider how it sounds when you say it.)

I agree with you Nate!
Jury still out and in a wait and see but right now I am not seeing what I had hoped to see.
There are way too many excuses for this year, Moran injury and never came back to last season or this year's expectation. Wick injury was untimely, others sliding backwards slightly. Over training last year still a question in my mind.
I know I will get a tongue lashing from some but I am going to way to see what things look like in a couple of years.
I am also very interesting in Coach Bono's ability to replace his coaching staff as that is always a moving piece of a coaches puzzle. We have nothing to go by right now.

I am still very hopeful but cautious

Jury isn't Out?!?!?  Jury came back Unanimous in Bono's favor, Judge even scolded the prosecution for bringing up such a ridiculous complaint!

In his second year, Bono and company had the Badgers RANKED 4th practically all year long.  This ranking, if wrestled to(obviously a big if but people that understand wrestling WAY more than you and I made these rankings), would have TIED for the Badgers BEST finish in 30 years.  Luke can more appropriately explain the NCAA point system needed but not a chance this team scored lower than 9th at NCAA's.  Based on that, this season would have been the 2nd best season in the last 30 years.  If you aren't happy with the second best season in 30 years, then you will never be satisfied.

Attendance is WAY up and this isn't debatable.  Energy is WAY up.  Giving to the RTC is WAY up (we still have a long way to go, how much do you donate BTW??).  One of the best Clubs in the State (Askren Wrestling Academy) is now working FOR the program instead of against it. Recruiting rankings are up!  We have the #1 pound for pound wrestler coming to the Badgers!

If you still consider the jury out, Wow!!!

[dad 2 5]

After knowing the rankings and expectations for both individuals and as a team at the beginning of the year compared with those same rankings at the end, and seeing the Badgers perform at the Big Ten meet (the closest thing to the NCAA meet this year), your prognostication (based on Flo suggesting a #5 finish at the NCAA meet...a prognostication made prior to the Big Ten meet, BTW) is that we were in line for "the fourth best finish in Badger history." Really? You are doing a very good job of cherry picking facts in order to arrive at a predetermined conclusion that you have.

You know, if you're just going to make stuff up... if you're just oblivious to the differences between dual and tournament scoring... if you're going to act like rankings are anything other than an extremely accurate predictor of future performance...

...we're probably good without you, regardless of how you view Evan's concussion.

Anyway, going into NCAAs, here were the rankings for 4 of our 6 qualifiers:

Seth Gross #2
Tristan Moran #7
Evan Wick #4
Trent Hillger #5

If they wrestled to those places, the minimum they could score is 43.5 (Gross-16, Moran-6, Wick-12, Hillger-9.5). That's without any bonus or any points from Martin or Sebastian. Wick's averaged 4 bonus points per NCAA tourney in his career. Gross has averaged 3.75 per year over the last two. Moran had 2 bonus points in his only tourney.

I'm not saying all those numbers are gospel, but I'm also not going to stand here while you hold the coronavirus against the current coaching staff. No one knows how the NCAAs would have gone, but in the absence of an actual event, the math I've just done indicates this team was easily a Top 10 team ever, in the program's history.

Don't like it? Really I don't care.

Doesn't make it untrue.

PS - The Badgers were (4-5) in duals? Would you like to know where the 4 Big Ten teams they didn't wrestle this season placed at Big Tens? 6th, 11th, 12th, and 14th. That we wrestled the toughest schedule of all teams in the Big Ten this year matters, but I'm certain, at this point, that actual facts are irrelevant to you.

Question:
I thought in the brackets it had the Badgers at:
SG #2
TM #9
CM #26
EW #8
JS #24
TH #6
?
Say things don't play out well for Moran as the injury seemed to be nagging at him and he finishes 11 and Wick appears healthy and gets re injured and Gross has another off day and finishes 6th would that put the Badgers at about 16th? That would have completely stunk but just wondering.

[bigoil]

Evan had a concussion, he wasn't going to get reinjured per se any more likely than any other wrestler.

[littleguy301]

I like the bono hire and still like the bono hire. I supported it from the get go. I also like damien Hahn if he was to be hired.

Now with Wisconsin improving a great point was brought up in a post. How bono handles the coaching staff is going to be the real key here. At some point schools will come calling for reader. If the rumors I hear is that McDonough is gone, is gross going to replace him? If reader gets an offer, to see bono coach without reader will be a real test to bono coaching.

I say bono has created more excitement in the past 2 years than Barry did in the past 8 or so years.