Big donors out there at Wisconsin?

[MNbadger]

Ben, what I am addressing is the "wrestling fans" that complain about attendance and rarely if ever attend.  The Badgers have been improving and were very competitive in duals last year ( something these same fans claim to love).  I don't remember saying anything about anyone's "duty to attend". 

[wrestlemania]

" BRTC is working on this. Bucky's Locker Room has the rights to the Field House.... a good thing you could do is contact them and ask why they weren't open. "

Again, this shows what I'm talking about. I mean the idea of putting table up, any old table you could find in the back corner of the Fieldhouse, and sell UW wrestling gear and you can't do it because "Bucky's Locker Room" has exclusive rights to sell merchandise in the Fieldhouse. I guarantee you if you called them and ask why they weren't open they'd probably laugh at you: "You want us to be open for an event which might draw 500 people at most? Sure! And you can pay the time and a half for the store clerk too!" (it's probably why they didn't have concessions either). I mean, it's nuts and then add the fact the BRTC also can't put a table up, any old table, in the Fieldhouse up to advertise to people what they do because it's not allowed.

UWAD compliance is shackling this program and I suspect BD and others coaches on staff past and present have put up with it as their lot in life and are trying to put their focus and energy on what they can do and control on the mat than off of it.  You're right Mr. Askren in thinking that logic would dictate that an extra $200,000 to $300,000 in the athletic department coffers would be an incentive to let the thing go to what other programs are doing around the country. But often times athletic departments don't operate on logic. And I'm starting to believe, or forming an opinion anyways, just from observing the situation from the outside, that UWAD is not going to make and/or allow the kind of investments from boosters needed to put UW at the pedestal of a Penn State, for example, because it believes that to do so would put the program in danger of rules violations again. In other words, it believes that college wrestling is inherently corrupt because of the chasing of money to fund such things as coaching staffs, facilities, training centers and the like (I can imagine how much teeth were pulled just to get the BRTC off the ground). Considering how business was done up in Minneapolis for many years, they not entirely wrong. But I can make the same argument about college basketball too and I don't see the UWAD making any kind extra burdens for Greg Gard to compete.

Alas again, we're comparing apples to oranges as far as revenue vs. non-revenue sport. And to UWAD, their argument would be thus: "Look, BD wins most of his dual meets, the kids graduate and don't get in trouble, they finish in the Top 25 in the NCAA Meet and they do so clean, so what's your problem with that?" Of course we know what the problem is, UW fans wish to do better than mediocre. Their response would be "I understand that but you must understand the top college wrestling programs are heavily booster funded and if there's one thing the Alvarez-era UWAD has been very consistent about is that it and not the boosters are controlling the fundraising for all the sports. And after what happened with Shoegate which wrecked a potential national championship football team in 2000 and smeared the reputation of the department because of booster's naive generosity with shoes, we will never allow that to happen again so long as BA and his people (those who will eventually succeed him) are still in charge."

So that's the universe in which BD and the Badger coaching staff has to operate in. And in all considerations he hasn't done a bad job notwithstanding. But the program is basically a mom and pop shop competing against 10 Wal-Marts in the college wrestling world and in this context you can see the frustrations of a Jesse Thielke and others with ambition have had trying to navigate through all of it. However, any new coach is either going to have to accept these realities, find creative ways to work within them or basically not take the job. And I warn everyone, the pool of candidates is not going to be a big as you think because other coaches know of these realities and are not going to waste their time applying. I'm sure, Mr. Askren, you would love to have the opportunity but not at the expense of your sanity.  

[MNbadger]

Wrestlman ia.....What "business up in Minneapolis" are you referring to?  You mean the ONE instance of athletes breaking the rules?  The coach (he was let go in short order).  Are you trying to say the Gophers are successful because of some (imagined by you) cheating?

" BRTC is working on this. Bucky's Locker Room has the rights to the Field House.... a good thing you could do is contact them and ask why they weren't open. "

Again, this shows what I'm talking about. I mean the idea of putting table up, any old table you could find in the back corner of the Fieldhouse, and sell UW wrestling gear and you can't do it because "Bucky's Locker Room" has exclusive rights to sell merchandise in the Fieldhouse. I guarantee you if you called them and ask why they weren't open they'd probably laugh at you: "You want us to be open for an event which might draw 500 people at most? Sure! And you can pay the time and a half for the store clerk too!" (it's probably why they didn't have concessions either). I mean, it's nuts and then add the fact the BRTC also can't put a table up, any old table, in the Fieldhouse up to advertise to people what they do because it's not allowed.

UWAD compliance is shackling this program and I suspect BD and others coaches on staff past and present have put up with it as their lot in life and are trying to put their focus and energy on what they can do and control on the mat than off of it.  You're right Mr. Askren in thinking that logic would dictate that an extra $200,000 to $300,000 in the athletic department coffers would be an incentive to let the thing go to what other programs are doing around the country. But often times athletic departments don't operate on logic. And I'm starting to believe, or forming an opinion anyways, just from observing the situation from the outside, that UWAD is not going to make and/or allow the kind of investments from boosters needed to put UW at the pedestal of a Penn State, for example, because it believes that to do so would put the program in danger of rules violations again. In other words, it believes that college wrestling is inherently corrupt because of the chasing of money to fund such things as coaching staffs, facilities, training centers and the like (I can imagine how much teeth were pulled just to get the BRTC off the ground). Considering how business was done up in Minneapolis for many years, they not entirely wrong. But I can make the same argument about college basketball too and I don't see the UWAD making any kind extra burdens for Greg Gard to compete.

Alas again, we're comparing apples to oranges as far as revenue vs. non-revenue sport. And to UWAD, their argument would be thus: "Look, BD wins most of his dual meets, the kids graduate and don't get in trouble, they finish in the Top 25 in the NCAA Meet and they do so clean, so what's your problem with that?" Of course we know what the problem is, UW fans wish to do better than mediocre. Their response would be "I understand that but you must understand the top college wrestling programs are heavily booster funded and if there's one thing the Alvarez-era UWAD has been very consistent about is that it and not the boosters are controlling the fundraising for all the sports. And after what happened with Shoegate which wrecked a potential national championship football team in 2000 and smeared the reputation of the department because of booster's naive generosity with shoes, we will never allow that to happen again so long as BA and his people (those who will eventually succeed him) are still in charge."

So that's the universe in which BD and the Badger coaching staff has to operate in. And in all considerations he hasn't done a bad job notwithstanding. But the program is basically a mom and pop shop competing against 10 Wal-Marts in the college wrestling world and in this context you can see the frustrations of a Jesse Thielke and others with ambition have had trying to navigate through all of it. However, any new coach is either going to have to accept these realities, find creative ways to work within them or basically not take the job. And I warn everyone, the pool of candidates is not going to be a big as you think because other coaches know of these realities and are not going to waste their time applying. I'm sure, Mr. Askren, you would love to have the opportunity but not at the expense of your sanity.  

[bigG]

So, took the advice and went to a match (ok, scrimmage):

1)  No concessions.  Saw a couple kids walking around with soda's, assume vending machine.
2) No gear for sale.  I would have bought a UW wrestling knit hat for the walk to the car.  Saw some kids walking around with posters.  big deal.
3)  No info on upcoming matches.
4) No plugs via the announcer for upcoming matches, np offers to buy tickets for future, follow us on Twitter, etc.
5) Other then tossing some t-shirts, no promotions.   No excitement, nothing to keep the kids excited or even marginally interested.  I liked Konrath running around, at least he tried to get the crowd going.
6)  Heck, even the head coach isn't wearing ANY Badger gear.  Blue shirt, Gray Under Armour hat.
7)  No BRTC info. Nothing.
 No plug to donate to team or BRTC.  No updates on the steak fry, fundraising efforts, nothing.  
9)  Nothing to personalize the wrestler.  Announcer gives name, town, school year (mostly correct).  Nothing to make you root for the kid (and maybe come back to watch him)--no UW Major, record last year, something.
10)  No mid-scrimmage talk from the coach or someone--thanks from coming, excited for the year, great things coming our way, here are the seniors with something to prove, etc.  Nothing.
11)  No Bucky working the crowd or hanging with the kids.


Yes, it was a scrimmage but what an opportunity to garner some interest later in the season.  The attendance wasn't half bad but wow were the kids bored.  And for a school night there was alot of kids.

I'm sure I will be corrected on a couple things were there that I missed.  But my sons and I walked in the fieldhouse at 7:25pm and into the stands.  We stayed until Comeback Crone did it again.  THe kids went to look for concession once and we went to the bathroom on the way out.  If we missed somethings, it just shows it all needs to be better.  

You have Purdue doing practices in the end zone before a football game to garner interest...PURDUE!  UW is getting left behind.  That is not even up for debate.

So, for the 2 or 3 posters here that throw out the "prove your support by showing up", why should we?  The UW staff/administration are doing NOTHING to bring people in.   Barry Davis mannerisms are clearly of a guy who is just bidding time.  Jeez, we are all giddy they have Facebook live, wow.

Finally-whats up with UW wrestlers throwing the legs in all the time?  OR, whats up with the UW wrestlers not able to defend the legs being thrown in? Yuck.

What a GREAT post.  I hope the UW coaches read this.  Tons of areas for improvement that don't cost a dime.  If I was the coach, I would go down to the   world class business school and ask the dean if we could partner with the marketing or advertising club/department to get some students who actually understand how sports promotion works to get some help.  Heck, I would even hire one as a graduate or teaching assistant if I could find the budget to really oversee the process and get something started that I could replicate each year without much effort.  I am a college business professor and my students would LOVE doing this but I don't teach at UW.  What a cool, real world project for the students.  

Just long as they're not looking for an MBA from Madison. JK, I see they're keeping it. I was just surprised they were thinking of dumping it.

[Barou]

Let me ask our armchair coaches out there (particularly Mr. Askren) would you coach at any school that is so restrictive of its wrestling program that it wouldn't even allow it to sell season tickets? This can't be a revenue sport vs. non-revenue sport thing because UW volleyball sells season tickets. I'm curious what reasons the UWAD gave for this.

I don't think there should be much to be "curious" about.  They don't "allow" season tickets because there is no demand for it.  Why commit the time and resources to develop a season ticket program for events that have no demand?  The volleyball team sells out.  There is more demand than supply.  What are dual meets averaging, maybe 2K at most?

[bkraus]

Let me ask our armchair coaches out there (particularly Mr. Askren) would you coach at any school that is so restrictive of its wrestling program that it wouldn't even allow it to sell season tickets? This can't be a revenue sport vs. non-revenue sport thing because UW volleyball sells season tickets. I'm curious what reasons the UWAD gave for this.

I don't think there should be much to be "curious" about.  They don't "allow" season tickets because there is no demand for it.  Why commit the time and resources to develop a season ticket program for events that have no demand?  The volleyball team sells out.  There is more demand than supply.  What are dual meets averaging, maybe 2K at most?

That's an excellent point.  What is the reasoning for season tickets?  For me it is two fold, to guarantee a seat at the highly desired event, and a small discount in purchasing vs buying at the gate.  With $5 and $2 tickets at the gate, I don't see a huge break there.

[MNbadger]

From Openmat:

The demise of the college wrestling dual meet has been greatly exaggerated. At least, that is what attendance numbers from the 2016-17 season appear to be telling us. Starting with the 2001-02 season, Denny Diehl has been compiling attendance data for 15 years. This season, working in concert with Denny, TOM continued that tradition, gathering information from as many Division I programs as possible. Some schools don't track attendance data for wrestling so they are not included here. However, after getting responses from those that do, attendance at duals appears to be at the highest levels we've seen this century.

For the 11th year in a row, Iowa led the nation in attendance per match. This year they posted their second highest average attendance with 9860 fans per dual, trailing only last year's 12,166 per dual that was boosted by the 42,287 fans at the Grapple on the Gridiron. Penn State was second with 7833 per dual, largely due to most of their home matches being in the smaller Rec Hall, while Ohio State was third with 5880 per match. Rounding out the schools averaging over 5000 fans per match was Oklahoma State with 5041. This is the first time since the data has been tracked that four teams averaged over 5000 fans per match. There had never been as many as three such teams before. The top 20 in attendance is as follows:



Rank   School   Avg. Attendance
1   Iowa   9860
2   Penn State   7833
3   Ohio State   5880
4   Oklahoma State   5041
5   Rutgers   4706
6   Iowa State   3280
7   Minnesota   2715
8   Nebraska   1948
9   South Dakota State   1614
10   Northern Iowa   1603
11   Virginia Tech   1507
12   Lehigh   1485
13   Cornell   1472
14   Missouri   1377
15   Edinboro   1309
16   Michigan   1217
17   Arizona State   1045
18   NC State   1027
19   Army   1012
20   Wisconsin   955
The 19 schools reporting over 1000 fans per match is also a record with Army hitting four-figures despite a crowd of just 89 for a bad weather date against Bucknell. Rutgers used the biggest crowd of the year, 16,178 for the Battle at the Birthplace event against Princeton outdoors at High Point Solutions stadium, to hold their spot at fifth in the nation in attendance for the second straight year. South Dakota State makes their first appearance in the top-10 after getting over 4000 for the Iowa dual and posting solid numbers for all their home matches.

As mentioned, the biggest crowd of the year went to Rutgers with 16,178 which was the second largest crowd of all-time (that data goes back beyond the 15 year period mentioned above), behind the 42,287 for Iowa and Oklahoma State's Grapple on the Gridiron a year ago. Each of the top five schools in average attendance had a crowd of over 14,000 this season, putting each of those meets in the top-25 all-time. Penn State hosting Lehigh and Ohio State hosting Penn State joined the Rutgers/Princeton dual among the top-10 crowds ever to attend a college wrestling dual. Oklahoma State hosting Penn State in the National Duals championship saw the largest crowd to ever see any sporting event in Gallagher-Iba Arena with 14,059 in attendance, good for 22nd best all-time.quote author=Barou link=topic=51643.msg619447#msg619447 date=1509370342]

Let me ask our armchair coaches out there (particularly Mr. Askren) would you coach at any school that is so restrictive of its wrestling program that it wouldn't even allow it to sell season tickets? This can't be a revenue sport vs. non-revenue sport thing because UW volleyball sells season tickets. I'm curious what reasons the UWAD gave for this.

I don't think there should be much to be "curious" about.  They don't "allow" season tickets because there is no demand for it.  Why commit the time and resources to develop a season ticket program for events that have no demand?  The volleyball team sells out.  There is more demand than supply.  What are dual meets averaging, maybe 2K at most?
[/quote]

[CLC FAN]

The reason to sell a season ticket package is probably two-fold.

1)  Increases attendance.  If a customer has already bought and paid for 5 duals, they are more likely to make sacrifices to attend a dual - since "I've already spent the money."

2)  Increases revenue.  Yes, you are giving a price break usually, but selling more increases revenue.  You are also likely to be pushing a customer's marginal decision in your favor.
"I was planning to go to two or three this year, but if I purchase 5 it's a better deal."  Furthermore, there will be customers who buy a package for 5 duals and can only end up attending 3.  You are getting 2 purchases out of that customer which you very likely wouldn't have if they were purchasing tickets by walking up to the box office the day of the event.


I'm sure there is a little overhead cost in setting up a season ticket holder's list - but really, I can't understand why a university would be against one of its sports wanting to sell season tickets.  Doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.

[wrastle63]

From Openmat:

The demise of the college wrestling dual meet has been greatly exaggerated. At least, that is what attendance numbers from the 2016-17 season appear to be telling us. Starting with the 2001-02 season, Denny Diehl has been compiling attendance data for 15 years. This season, working in concert with Denny, TOM continued that tradition, gathering information from as many Division I programs as possible. Some schools don't track attendance data for wrestling so they are not included here. However, after getting responses from those that do, attendance at duals appears to be at the highest levels we've seen this century.

For the 11th year in a row, Iowa led the nation in attendance per match. This year they posted their second highest average attendance with 9860 fans per dual, trailing only last year's 12,166 per dual that was boosted by the 42,287 fans at the Grapple on the Gridiron. Penn State was second with 7833 per dual, largely due to most of their home matches being in the smaller Rec Hall, while Ohio State was third with 5880 per match. Rounding out the schools averaging over 5000 fans per match was Oklahoma State with 5041. This is the first time since the data has been tracked that four teams averaged over 5000 fans per match. There had never been as many as three such teams before. The top 20 in attendance is as follows:



Rank   School   Avg. Attendance
1   Iowa   9860
2   Penn State   7833
3   Ohio State   5880
4   Oklahoma State   5041
5   Rutgers   4706
6   Iowa State   3280
7   Minnesota   2715
8   Nebraska   1948
9   South Dakota State   1614
10   Northern Iowa   1603
11   Virginia Tech   1507
12   Lehigh   1485
13   Cornell   1472
14   Missouri   1377
15   Edinboro   1309
16   Michigan   1217
17   Arizona State   1045
18   NC State   1027
19   Army   1012
20   Wisconsin   955
The 19 schools reporting over 1000 fans per match is also a record with Army hitting four-figures despite a crowd of just 89 for a bad weather date against Bucknell. Rutgers used the biggest crowd of the year, 16,178 for the Battle at the Birthplace event against Princeton outdoors at High Point Solutions stadium, to hold their spot at fifth in the nation in attendance for the second straight year. South Dakota State makes their first appearance in the top-10 after getting over 4000 for the Iowa dual and posting solid numbers for all their home matches.

As mentioned, the biggest crowd of the year went to Rutgers with 16,178 which was the second largest crowd of all-time (that data goes back beyond the 15 year period mentioned above), behind the 42,287 for Iowa and Oklahoma State's Grapple on the Gridiron a year ago. Each of the top five schools in average attendance had a crowd of over 14,000 this season, putting each of those meets in the top-25 all-time. Penn State hosting Lehigh and Ohio State hosting Penn State joined the Rutgers/Princeton dual among the top-10 crowds ever to attend a college wrestling dual. Oklahoma State hosting Penn State in the National Duals championship saw the largest crowd to ever see any sporting event in Gallagher-Iba Arena with 14,059 in attendance, good for 22nd best all-time.quote author=Barou link=topic=51643.msg619447#msg619447 date=1509370342]

Let me ask our armchair coaches out there (particularly Mr. Askren) would you coach at any school that is so restrictive of its wrestling program that it wouldn't even allow it to sell season tickets? This can't be a revenue sport vs. non-revenue sport thing because UW volleyball sells season tickets. I'm curious what reasons the UWAD gave for this.

I don't think there should be much to be "curious" about.  They don't "allow" season tickets because there is no demand for it.  Why commit the time and resources to develop a season ticket program for events that have no demand?  The volleyball team sells out.  There is more demand than supply.  What are dual meets averaging, maybe 2K at most?

[/quote]
8th in the Big Ten as far as attendance, which is were we usually finish in placement. The teams on this list seem to be the be in the top 20 every year besides maybe Army.

[bigG]

That's just it. The UW is about where it should be in terms of success. I don't like it, because I love wrestling. But, we're about right where we should be.