Making a Murderer---Steven Avery--Netflix

[SuperDuck]

Again...two seperate juries...1 crime...many appeals (for some of the same accusations you are making) from higher courts that all found absolutely no basis for the accusations nor any evidence for it, but you want to just ignore that and because one cop who found the evidence happened to have a connections to his last conviction makes him dirty.....its laughable...

NO, what's laughable is how you try to downplay the actual role that cop played.  He had "connections" to his previous conviction?  Now THAT is laughable.  In fact, it's beyond laughable.

1-He took a phone call 8 YEARS before Avery was exonerated via DNA from a neighboring police department informing him that they had a registered sex offender and rapist admitting to the rape Avery was in jail for.  Colburn takes this call.  Now this is a Brown county DETECTIVE mind you.  He's calling to say, "hey, this guy we arrested for rape, he's claiming he committed a rape in Manitowoc.  But this is of no consequence to Colburn, the petty, angry little man.  It was only 8 years later after Avery was exonerated that he took ANY action..and the action he took at that time was to notify Lenk of the phone call he had received 8 years earlier.  When he asks Lenk, his superior(Coluburn's is now a Deputy) he tells him "we already have the right guy and he should not concern himself."  Now this is AFTER it was CONCLUSIVELY proven by DNA that he was not guilty(not to mention the 30 alibi wintesses who claim he was about an hour away, the outdated photo of Avery that looked very different than Gregory Allen as his hair was much different, AND the illegal lineup in which they subverted the laws by purposefully arranging a lineup in which Avery would stand out.  The victim said that man was short...so they arranged a lineup in which Avery was 3 inches shorter than anyone else in it).

2-The City is being sued because of these facts for 36 million dollars.  3 weeks...yes, just 3 weeks prior to the murder they depose both Lenk and Colburn.  Both give statements that are not truthful, misleading or evasive.  

On the stand; . In that call, he asks the dispatchers to run license plate SWH582, which is reported to belong to a missing person, Teresa. Colborn then asked if the plates for for a '99 Toyota, which was affirmed. When asked in Avery's trial why he had placed this call, Colborn said he was not looking at Halbach's license plates at the time.

So Colburn somehow calls the plates for Halbach's vehicle in well before they start searching.  He reads the plates and it comes back to a missing persons report.  He then verifies the make/model and color of the vehicle.  The same vehicle that didn't have plates on it when it was miraculously found out by two volunteers almost immediately despite being on 40+ acres with thousands of cars on it.  So there's another lie along with his earlier omission and incredibly blatant dereliction of duty by not reporting that a Detective had told him another sex offender had confessed to the rape Avery was in prison for(though he never specifically names Avery, there were only a handful of people serving time for force able rape at the time making it rather obvious to whom he was referring).  

3-HE WAS TOLD NOT TO BE PART OF THE INVESTIGATION.  Yet again, both Colburn and Lenk involve themsleves in the investigation.  Unaware he was not to be left along, the Calumet county officers who accompanied Colburn, he leaves the room. This is when the key was found.  A key that did not contain ANY of Halbach's DNA, only Avery's.  Could it be because when Colburn found the car with it's plates, the key was in it and after touching the key's, he had to remove his OWN DNA?  Otherwise, please do explain to me how the person who touched the keys every single day didn't leave any DNA, but Avery did?  This AGAIN is after SEVEN searches of the home.  7 times the Cops who were actually SUPPOSED to be investigating the case went through that room and found no key.  Yet Colburn goes through when he's not supposed to and magically finds them laying there after shaking the end table so violently(his words) that the small books didn't fall of, nor did any of the other items on the table.  But that's just a "normal" investigation in your world, right?

4-Same with the bullet.  After dozens of officers had been through that garage over a dozen times(7 official searches) in what you're suddenly claiming was this meticulously clean garage, one of the two officers who is under investigation and being sued for not reporting a phone call that should have led to Avery being released from prison....again, they magically find the bullet.  My God, ALL these other cops must have been woefully incompetent, and the detectives and the crime scene technicians must have been just AWFUL at their jobs if only Super Cops Colburn and his supervisor Lenk were able to find this evidence.  By this point, I doubt you're even reading because it doesn't fit your little, "sh## happens," theories, but I'll continue.

So what's truly laughable is your statement that he "had some connection to his prior conviction."  He actually didn't have any connection to his prior conviction.  You seem to be lacking almost all the facts here.  He had a VERY strong connection to Avery by lying about the phone call from a Detective(unless we're to believe the Brown county detective is ALSO a liar and the only honest person here is Colburn).  The guy was being made a fool of.  He LIED about coming in contact with the car well before it was found, he diregarded orders and inserted himself in the investigation, he covered up a phone call from  a detective that would have possibly freed Avery and put another rapist in prison and he found the key pieces of evidence.  Yeah, just a minor little connection.  

Again...two seperate juries...1 crime...many appeals

So what?  Your argument falls flat on it's face immediately when you consider that the very same thing happened to Avery the first time.  Not to mention, you STILL haven't said that you believe OJ Simpson and Casey Anthony are innocent.  Someone who believes juries are so infallible MUST believe in their innocence, right?

Please, stop being so naive.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/02/03/more-people-were-exonerated-in-2015-in-the-u-s-than-any-other-year/

In the Dallas-Forth Worth area alone there have been hundreds of people who have been found guilty and who's appeals have not been granted only to later be exonerated.  

But one of this BIGGEST issues with your nonsensical argument that since they were convicted and the appeals weren't overturned(aside from the fact that only about 1 in 1,000 capital crimes are ever overturned on appeals and that the appeals process is HEAVILY weighed toward the state) is that there were TWO trials.  

And the state was SOOOOO sure of what happened...they completely changed their story. They didn't believe Brandon Dassey.  Yet they still argued in the Avery case that she was tied up in his bedroom, raped, stabbed repeatedly, punched to the point where she her face was bleeding and then finally her throat was slit.  

Yet when it comes time for Dassey's trial, this isn't what happened.  What happened NOW is she was brought to the garage where she was shot TEN TIMES with a single action rifle(of course the rifle Avery owned and that the state claims was the murder weapon was not a single shot).  

Again, this is just totally normal to you, right?  

you also totally miss the point behind the bleach.....coming from an officer who you nor the netflix drama has accused of anything states with out a doubt the entire house and garage was spotless and smelled of strong bleach...

Great.  I guess that clears it all up then.  That explains why Colburn called in the plates to Halbach's car and then described the car and then on the stand claimed he never saw it.  Suuure.  Again, that's logical.  

So what if the house smelled of bleach?  I use bleach all the time.  In fact I JUST used bleach yesterday in my bathroom.  The entire house smelled of it as it gives off a noxious odor and a very strong one.  And in a trailer such as the one Avery lived on, of course the whole place is going to smell.  Either way, just because he bleached doesn't mean that they wouldn't be able to find blood.  It would degrade the DNA sample, but you are able to still find the precense of blood;

This is from a Law Enforcement's forensics guide;
Chlorine bleaches can remove a Bloodstain to the naked eye but fortunately, forensics experts can use the application of substances such as luminol or phenolphthalein to show that haemoglobin is present. In fact, even if the shady criminal washed a bloodstained item of clothing 10 times, these chemicals could still reveal blood.

So...one lady said that the house smelled of bleach and was clean(it really wasn't that clean, but that's irrelevant).  And you KEEP harping on how his lawyers said he was messy.  Amazing how you want to pick out one thing his lawyers said, but how you then just summarily dismiss every other one of their comments.  They said he was dirty in order to convey the absurdity of the states argument that he killer her in this way that would had spilled SEVERAL pints of blood and yet...NONE was found.  And now that you've learned that you can still find the presence of blood even after bleaching, I'm dying to hear how you account for this.

you nor the netflix drama has accused of anything states with out a doubt the entire house and garage was spotless

That's funny.....I could have sworn you said you didn't watch the Netflix show.  Either I'm mistaken, or you're just grasping at straws here and trying to use the Netflix documentary to aid your argument when it can and dismissing it when it does not.  As I said, I could be mistaken about you saying you didn't watch it.  You mind doing me a favor and clearing this up for me?  Because if you HAVE seen it, you're quite literally the ONLY person I know who watched it and hasn't found anything odd about this case.

Also you over look the magic bullet that the gun it was fired from must have been stolen from FBI lock up in order to shoot it to create the magic bullet and then put Theresa Halbachs DNA on.

I'm curious how many times either myself or bigoil is going to have to explain this to you.  The very same cops that you would have us believe are infallible said there were shell casings all over the property.  

I believe this has been pointed out a dozen or more times yet you keep using this inappropriate term01 strawman arguments to try and dismiss any questions into the validity of the evidence.  If it's intentional, it's transparent and.....frankly poorly done.  If it's not, then you're just not able or willing to read anything that doesn't align with your point of view.  

Here is some news for you...they got the right guy (you even claim that) investigations are not as black and white as you would like them to be...but in the end two murderers where put where they belong...end of subject...anything more is a waste of taxpayers money.

A-I don't "claim" anything for certain(that would take a lot of arrogance).  I do believe he's guilty.  Given that the evidence collected was collected by two cops who were not supposed to be involved and who lied and covered up certain aspects, I guess we'll never know for certain.  
B-The biggest waste of taxpayer money is the salaries going to Deputy Colburn and Lieutenant Lenk.  
C-If you can say that you definitively believe that the kid deserves to be in prison, then I honestly just feel bad for you.  I can't imagine an informed, educated, christian person with any moral compass who believes the nephew got what he deserves.  That one is just sad.  


But shockingly again, everything I'm trying to articulate seems to allude you...which...frankly is kinda shocking because I'm trying to break it down in as much painstaking detail as humanly possible.  I said this at the start, at the beggining and I'll say it again.  People who believe in the constitution of the United States(and it's totally find if you're not among those...I do get that view point, it was written long ago, however I do) should be horrified at the violations of the defendants 6th amendment rights. It's not about Avery, it's about the Cops who I believe by in large believed he was guilty and simply tried to stack the deck.  Something I know for an absolute FACT happens as I've had LEO's tell me as much.  So please stop trying to tell me that this isn't TV, and just try to think for yourself.  

Do you know how many people are falsely accused of crimes?  Most of the times these people never spend a day in jail.  Other times they do.  But if cops are allowed to manipulate evidence to ensure an outcome of their desire, who's to say that can't happen to you some day?  If so, I hope you get officers with a stronger moral guide than Officers Colburn and Lenk...and DEFINITELY a better DA than Kratz, a guy who admitted they had no idea how or where the murder took place despite telling 24 men and women to find without any reasonable doubt two different stories.  

[SuperDuck]

The next event to occur, from Colborn's perspective, was on November 3, 2005. The day Teresa Halbach is reported missing by her parents, Colborn placed a call to his dispatcher. In that call, he asks the dispatchers to run license plate SWH582, which is reported to belong to a missing person, Teresa. Colborn then asked if the plates for for a '99 Toyota, which was affirmed. When asked in Avery's trial why he had placed this call, Colborn said he was not looking at Halbach's license plates at the time.

In the investigation into Teresa Halbach's disappearance, Manitowoc County handed control to neighboring Calumet County, to "avoid the appearance of a conflict of interest," due to the then-ongoing civil suit Steven Avery had filed.  However, due to limited resources, Calumet sheriffs relied on assistance from Manitowoc. While in press interviews at the time, both counties outlined the Manitowoc involvement as minimal.

With the trial brought on by charges against Steven Avery, that minimal involvement was shown to extend to participation in every part of the investigation. Colborn interviewed Avery the same day she was reported missing – the same day he called in her license plate.After finding Halbach's vehicle on the Avery property, Calumet County sheriffs repeatedly searched the Avery property. On November 8, Sergeant William Tyson went with Colborn and his superior, James Lenk. While conducting a search of Avery's trailer, Lenk finds the key for Halbach's vehicle, the one Colborn inexplicably called in on November 3. Even though Colborn and Lenk, with the Manitowoc Sheriff's Office, are searching for evidence on the property, the Manitowoc Sheriff at that time, Pagel, reiterates their minimal involvement in a press conference later that day.

aarons23-Is there any way you could offer up an explanation as to why Colburn called in the plates and then described the vehicle? 

I mean....when Colburn was asked, he denied it(despite there being a recording of it). 

So...do you care to give any type of explanation as to why a man who was being sued by Avery would or could find himself in front of Halbach's vehicle WITH it's plates on still, find out it belongs to a missing person and then just...hang the phone up?

Or does this fall under the "____ happens" argument you seem to be relying on along with "a jury convicted him?" 

If you don't find this troubling, it's abundantly clear you're just not willing to use critical thinking.

[SuperDuck]

Goat,

If you have 40 plus acres, do you think I could find a bullet on your property? Watch the documentary, I agree with Duck. I was 100% skeptical of the doc but it isn't completely one sided as you think it is but definitely not balanced.

She was shot in the garage according to court documents.

Avery thought there was no way they would suspect him of murder, especially after he was wrongly accused.  His fiancee produced some very damaging letters from this sicko.  

By the way, a friend of mine was dispatched to take pictures at the Avery junkyard that day, but Avery specifically asked for Halbach (even though she didn't want to go).  Unfortunately she did.  If Mark had gone she would be alive today.

No....according to court documents she was murdered in his bedroom.  At least that was the story the DA gave in HIS trial.  In Massey's trial they came up with a completely different version of events.  

And it's laughable you'd say that Avery thought there was no way they would suspect him.  He immediately voiced fears.  He voiced fears about it before they even started a search for her.  Heck, his family voiced those fears even before she came to his house that day.  Your logic here is about as strong as wet toilet paper.  A guy who was already convicted and served another decade due to the outrageous incompetence of the same cops who'd later find the evidence in his case didn't think there was ANNNNY way in the midst of a near 40 million dollar lawsuit in which those cops were named defendants that he could possibly be investigated after a women who was on his property went missing.  Riiiight.

Hey, I have this bridge...if you act now, I can get you a REALLY good deal.  I also have a few hundred million dollars, but it's all tied up right now and I just need 5,000 dollars in order to pay administrative fees to get that money.  Would you send it to me? 

Not sure what the rest of your post is alluding to.  What "letters" are you talking about and how that relates in any way to the current discussion.

Maybe you should watch or investigate something other than Netflix.

It's funny, you seem to focus in on ONE comment I made.  And what's more ironic is that the comment I made was an attempt to potentially learn something about this.  Yet instead of providing that, you chose to make an ignorant comment.  I certainly have watched and "investigated,"(as much as you can via the internet) using sources other than netflix.  I've also stated repeatedly that Avery is a awful human being and belongs in jail.  So the purpose of your comment seems to be utterly pointless. 



However, in the ultimate turn of hypocrisy, perhaps you should use....ANY reference point to "investigate" this case that you're such an expert on. 

It's funny you ignored everything in my post expect a simple question.  I know of letters written to her saying he wanted certain items back and money back that she owed him.  The letters that I know of were relatively benign.  Of course that doesn't mean he wasn't a sadist and a murderer.  Just not sure what your point is or what letters you're talking about(and I'm fairly certain you're not either given you couldn't answer a simple question).

Back to the points you ignored.

Avery never believed he would be investigated for this murder after being wrongly accused?  It IS good you were willing to come around and finally believe that he was wrongly accused.  The fact that you still believed long after the fact that he really was guilty is telling.

But what's more telling is that...you're just wrong.  Avery and his familiy members were on record being fearful of the police as a result of the lawsuit.  Avery immediately expressed fears that they would try to "get him," again. 

What's more, according to court documents she was shot in the garage?  As I'm always trying to learn more and keep an open mind, could you tell me where you saw those court records?  Because as I understand it, Kratz and the state declared she was killed in two entirely different manners.  In Avery's trial(the one we're talking about) she was tied up, stabbed, throat slit, punched, raped and killed in the bedroom.

But by all means, if you have something to add other than +100, or to once again disparage the Netflix series, something by your own account you are almost completely ignorant of, then please do share. 

You see, some people can watch something, understand it's slanted, but still have questions. In these cases, it's possible(even common) for them to seek out further information.  Your problem as I see it here is you're completely, utterly unwilling to ask questions(again, this is fine, many people go through life happily believing everything that's initially told to them...this would explain why you still believed he was actually guilty of the rape despite there being absolute and indisputable evidence he was not and was in fact with 30 other individuals and another man admitted to it and it was his DNA).

Ultimately, perhaps you'd be better equipped to contribute to this discussion(if you feel so inclined...though all the evidence points to the contrary) if you were at least informed about the topic we were discussing.  I know the saying you can't teach and old dog new tricks(or man to take facts and form his own opinion as opposed to someone telling him what it should be and blindly following that opinion) but maybe you can prove me wrong.  I can guarantee you will have a different opinion if you do.  Not about Avery's guilt per say...that I'm very much convinced of, but of the circumstances surrounding the case.  I just question why you're so afraid to do so.  Netflix isn't that expensive and I believe it even gives you a free month to start!

[littleguy301]

I know super duck your late to the game but alot of this has been gone over already.

[SuperDuck]

I know super duck your late to the game but alot of this has been gone over already.

Some of it has, but I believe(perhaps just my own arrogance) that some of it wasn't explained that well or in depth, and some still deny some of the facts.

I saw Jaguar point out that Colburn called in the plates and described the car, but I never heard anyone follow up or those who think this was all by the book try to explain why Colburn lied and said he never saw the vehivle.  I guess I think there are some points that need to be driven home a bit stronger that have not been.

[SuperDuck]

SuperDuck = Scourge

The fact that CAPITALIZE certain words was a dead giveaway.

Really?  I'm a "scourge" because I'm challenging your logic and your absolute belief in authority in this case?

[Ghetto]

Superduck is not Scourge.

[ramjet]

I miss The Scourge.........

[SuperDuck]

Superduck is not Scourge.

You base that on what?  If not, their writing and punctuality are exactly the same.  Go back and read Scourge's posts.

So scourge is a who and not a what? 

But this theory you buy into?

[Ghetto]

Superduck is not Scourge.

You base that on what?  If not, their writing and punctuality are exactly the same.  Go back and read Scourge's posts.

I base it on the writing and punctuation.

Yes SuperDuck. Scourge was a frequent flyer on this forum.

[SuperDuck]

Superduck is not Scourge.

You base that on what?  If not, their writing and punctuality are exactly the same.  Go back and read Scourge's posts.

So scourge is a who and not a what? 

But this theory you buy into?

Yes Paul.

Sure....whatever you say.  This really looks like a way for you to get out of responding to my posts which you have no answer for.

[SuperDuck]

Superduck is not Scourge.

You base that on what?  If not, their writing and punctuality are exactly the same.  He even mentions Ram in one of the posts on this topic.  Go back and read Scourge's posts.

There's a poster Ramjet who was posting on this thread.  What exactly does me mentioning him mean?


Just a way to distract from the actual conversation in which the fact that one women smells bleach, everything the Cops did that blatantly crossed any and all ethical lines is magically ok.

[aarons23]

Ha...maybe he is Scourges brother.....we need another netflix movie to sort this out...lol

[imnofish]

Sounds dizzy.  When ducks fly upside down, they quack up.

[bigG]

Superduck is not Scourge.

You base that on what?  If not, their writing and punctuality are exactly the same.  He even mentions Ram in one of the posts on this topic.  Go back and read Scourge's posts.

They do tend to arrive at the same time. On time.  

I couldn't sit through the whole documentary. But, from what I've seen , hard to conclude enough doubt to set this nut free.