I have seen where coaches are not letting varsity wrestlers participate in tournaments because they feel they don't have much of a chance.
Itseems to me that with the large tournament formats and the fact that there are no elimination tournaments that really no matter how inexperienced your wrestler is he is eventually going to wrestle someone around his own caliber.
I don't think it does the wrestlers any good whatsoever to be told you are not competent enough to participate in a tournament even though you have earned a varsity spot. I would guess you may be stunting these athletes growth by trashing their confidence.
I have not seen a tournament yet where the 12 or 16 kids in a bracket were all studs and there wasn't a significant drop off in talent after the top few. I think getting these kids in these tournaments and winning or at least wrestling competitive matches on the backside of a bracket does not only give kids the extremely necessary mat time they need it makes them feel like they are part of the team.
I would think one of the fastest ways to ruin a wrestling program is to tell your young wrestlers they aren't good enough to be part of the team but you want them around to be practice dummies for your good kids.
Guess what? These inexperienced kids are your future.
Honestly if these coaches have been coaching these kids for 2 1/2 months and they still feel they can't compete in some of these less than stellar tournaments maybe these coaches should look themselves in the mirror and find a different sport to coach.
So how does this fit with JH inclusion? One of the big fears is of a coach putting a kid out there that isn't ready. Now we are questioning them if they DON'T put a kid out there that isn't ready.........
You may be right but if there is a coach that can stick around, I will bet they would get a lot more out of a practice. I watched a tourney earlier in the year of a friends kid, I think I was told 10 practices for a newbie at 182, undersized by 12#. The friend was not a wrestler so I was able to give some advice but what he needed was A LOT more practice.
So a kid that can't win a match at a JV tourney should be thrown in to a varsity tourney to wrestle because that will raise his spirits?
I didn't say these kids were bad and I didn't say anything about them not being able to win a jv match. I said they were inexperienced. Said kids have accrued about 6 jv matches all year. In our area there are very few jv matches. If all the kids you deemed not qualified to wrestle on varsity were made to wrestle jv we would be looking at a lot more 4-5 match duals. That's not the answer in our area. The backside of a lot of varsity tournaments are just like a glorified jv tournament so let them get some mat time.
Every kid and every situation is different. I am not going to send a kid out there to get his teeth knocked in. Because those kids ARE the future, and if they quit because they get smashed repeatedly, then they never come back and you lose them. With numbers being what they are, I need every kid to stick around.
I think most coaches know the readiness levels of their wrestlers and are well-qualified to responsibly put those kids in the best situations for potential growth. I also think it's apparently a lot easier to make these calls from the stands, but that illusion tends to fade in the light of reality. That's why the coaches get paid to do their jobs and we pay to watch them do it.
Let me ask you this then. With conference and regionals left there are no more jv opportunities left. There is however about 7 varsity matches left. Taking into consideration our conference and regional situations these kids would have 1-3 matches against superior opponents and 4-5 matches against equal or inferior opponents. Would you end their season and not let them participate or would you let them be part of a team that has a chance to win both tournaments?
This is why you send kids to a JV tournament in Dec. and Jan. instead of a varsity tournament, so they can hopefully get a win or two and get some team points. A kid will learn more and get more confidence going 3-1 or 2-2 in a JV tournament then going 1-3 in a varsity and getting pinned twice in the first period.
Quote from: Alumni on February 05, 2014, 10:25:04 PM
I don't think it does the wrestlers any good whatsoever to be told you are not competent enough to participate in a tournament even though you have earned a varsity spot.
The highlighted part is key. Some of the kids haven't really "earned" a spot in a varsity line-up. Some are even first year wrestlers, but with spots to fill, they get put in the mix. I agree that coaches (should) know their wrestlers and be able to assess what tournaments they are ready for, though.
We actually have a JV tourney on Feb 10th. But to tell the truth. There are some kids that I still wouldn't put into the Conference or Regional tourney. I still want these kids back next year and I don't want them getting a bad taste from getting hurt or beat up right at the end of the year. I do want them to come along and cheer the rest of the team along and see where they need to be for next year.
We have a kid that has filled in a couple times on varsity. Last weekend he spent a total of 57 seconds in 3 matches on the mat at a JV tourney. Never won a match, would you put this kid into a Varsity spot to fill a hole at Conference or Regionals?
I do think more varsity tournaments should guarantee at least 3 matches. Match up the kids that went 0-2 and get them another match or 2 with the others that went 0-2.
Varsity is not an "earned" spot at all times. Many "varsity" kids would have a .500 record going to just JV tournaments.
Having more tournaments that have both varsity and JV divisions would help to keep the team together rather than having to decide whether to send a wrestler to the varsity tournament or the JV tournament
We have a very small team made up of kids that range from state qualifiers to freshmen that are essentially beginners. For our team I really like the scramble format that nearly guarantees you a match or two against equal competition.
I absolutely think there are times that you don't throw an inexperienced wrestler to the wolves. I believe we have to trust the judgement of the coaches who should be in tune with the mindset of the wrestler. Every kid is different, and needs to be handled differently.
Are kids' egos really that fragile now that they're going to quit if they lose a few matches? Is this a newer thing? I don't recall the line ups from my years being shuffled around to the degree that seems to happen today. I'm also not a coach. We also had full varsity and JV lineups and then some. So is this just something that has come along with lower turnout, too?
Quote from: DrWhargoul on February 06, 2014, 07:19:07 AM
Are kids' egos really that fragile now that they're going to quit if they lose a few matches? Is this a newer thing? I don't recall the line ups from my years being shuffled around to the degree that seems to happen today. I'm also not a coach. We also had full varsity and JV lineups and then some. So is this just something that has come along with lower turnout, too?
Yes, back in my day, we had full varsity and JV line-ups....and the JV kids were all state qualifier-caliber kids but were behind state place-winners! ...and another 20 kids chomping at the bit who would give their right arm to be able to wrestle varsity....and a full gymnasium ....and took 3 spectator buses to AWAY duals! LOL ...
(funny part is 3 of those previous statements are true)You people are forgetting one thing (
besides the fact that things are ALWAYS changing) and that is in this age of specialization, club sports, wrestling schools, year-round training, etc. - in the larger schools especially, the 3 sport athlete is a dying species and going the way of the dinosaurs.
Whenever he feels it's the right thing to do, he's the coach, you're not. When you start coaching then you get to make the decision.
Chuck
Would you put a 7-9(just an example) wrestler in the conference tournament where even if he won one match it would help win the tournament?
I don't know for sure but I think Alumni(if I think it is who I am thinking) was a coach for a long time and was very successful and does know what the wrestlers are capable of.
All good points guys and I respect your opinions.
A couple more thoughts, is it fair to the rest of the team when you are basically taking a chance at a conference and regional championship away from them?
A lot of you are saying that you shouldn't let them wrestle or going 2-2 at jv is better than 1-3 in a varsity tournament. What if 2 of those 3 varsity losses were close quality matches? What if 2 of the jv matches were 20 second pins? Not every jv kid can't compete at the varsity level.
Lets take Lancaster for example, on another thread it says they have 5 potential state champs but not a lot around them. I have looked at some of those kids records and some are well below 500. Lancaster has been in the conversation as a contenders for a state championship. So are you saying it would be in the kids and the programs best interest to sit 5-6 wrestlers and give Lancaster no chance of winning their regional or sectional?
I'm guessing that those kids would much rather go 1-3 at the regional, score some team points and be a part of a team that has a chance at a state championship than they would like to go 2-2 at a jv tournament of Feb 10th and be sitting in the stands watching the team state tournament.
I feel that by sitting them kids you are turning a team sport back into an individual sport. No matter what you are going to have inferior wrestlers on your team. But what keeps them coming back is having team success and being part of that "team".
I saw the kid from Lancaster who had a 5-25 record jumping up and down and celebrating just as hard as Martin,Cornell and the rest of the studs at team state last year.
I agree that every kid is different and every situation is different but I still feel you should put your team before individuals.
Well as far as the team goes, then it is a little different and I think you need to have the other team mates somewhat involved and help pump the lesser kid up. I think more kids would be willing to go out and try even if they get beat badly if they were doing it for the "team". And to me, that's what is missing in Wisconsin that Minnesota has, is much more emphasis on the team and not the individual.
Chuck
100% agree. If you put the team first you will have much stronger individuals.
Its not a coincidence that the annual teams at the team state tournament like Rapids, Casco, kuakauna, Point, Coleman etc are also some of the leaders of individual state champs.
I would be willing to bet that those teams preach "Team" first and their not to worried about their inferior kids suffering a couple bumps and bruises in the process.
Good programs show their kids that they are part of something bigger and they may be called on at times to sacrifice for the betterment of the team.
If that means going out and wrestling a 3x state champ and doing your best to not get pinned then so be it.
Winning JV matches isn't the only way to establish pride in a individual.
Some people say you can learn a lot more from losing a match than winning one. Well if your not very good you have a distinct learning advantage over someone that is good, you have a lot more tape to watch. ;)
When using the phrase "in my day...." realize that things are very, very different than 30, 20, even 15 years ago. As whatever said, the 3 sport kids are going the way of the dinosaurs because of specialization. I think that's really popped up the last 10-15 years.
As for holding out less experienced wrestlers, I think it goes on a wrestler by wrestler basis. Each kid is different. Some kids can take a pounding and will keep coming back. Some won't. I've seen it both ways. But another thing that stuck of what was said is that the backside of the tournaments are glorified JV tournaments and there aren't many JV matches to be had. I think that's probably more of a issue up north where there are smaller schools and less kids to draw from. Being a DI school, we travel to tournaments where there are mostly DI schools. The backside of the tournament is usually not a JV tournament. They have kids that have experience. They are kids that are 7-9 or 6-10 that have actually wrestled the matches and the wins are not FF's. I think if you go to some of the tournaments that are primarily made up of DII and DIII schools, I thinks it's true the top kids are very good, but after that there is the potential for a big drop off in talent mainly because there just isn't the talent pool to draw from like there is at the DI level.
At this time of year though, you have the kids that have toughed it the whole year. They are probably going to be coming back next year if they haven't quit by now. Explain to the kids with lesser experience what the stakes are and that they have nothing to lose. Put them in the end of the year tournaments.
What do you think would happen if this was done in any other sport?
Does every small school have 9 solid baseball players, 11 solid football players, 5 solid BB players?
Would a coach ever even consider only suiting up 10 football, 8 baseball or 4 BB players?
Why is wrestling any different?
Every other sport fields athletes that are not upper echelon players and sometimes they may even be detrimental to there team.
I would like to see what happens to coach who has 6-7 good football players and decides to only put them on the field while the rest of the players watch.
In wrestling whats the worst that could happen, one kid gives up 6 team points? In any other sport one kid could be the reason behind giving up lots of points yet no coach would play with less the the maximum amount of starters.
How many ball players would stick it out if they didn't get to play and your team played with less starters than you are allowed.
I like what crosface said, at this point of the season these kids are pretty committed to the team.
So as a coach you really have nothing to lose but a whole lot to gain.
Quote from: Alumni on February 06, 2014, 12:48:29 PM
What do you think would happen if this was done in any other sport?
Does every small school have 9 solid baseball players, 11 solid football players, 5 solid BB players?
Would a coach ever even consider only suiting up 10 football, 8 baseball or 4 BB players?
Why is wrestling any different?
Every other sport fields athletes that are not upper echelon players and sometimes they may even be detrimental to there team.
I would like to see what happens to coach who has 6-7 good football players and decides to only put them on the field while the rest of the players watch.
In wrestling whats the worst that could happen, one kid gives up 6 team points? In any other sport one kid could be the reason behind giving up lots of points yet no coach would play with less the the maximum amount of starters.
How many ball players would stick it out if they didn't get to play and your team played with less starters than you are allowed.
I like what crosface said, at this point of the season these kids are pretty committed to the team.
So as a coach you really have nothing to lose but a whole lot to gain.
The difference is that kids in those sports don't go into a situation in which they are spotlighted as individual competitors. They are team sports and those kids can get physical support from their teammates. When that inexperienced kid is on the mat, he is on his own.
Good point fish. It might be a team dual, but the 220 can't come out and help the 145 from getting beat.
Chuck
That's true but the 145 pounder is wrestling another 145 pounder. The playing field is somewhat more level.
A 125 pound corner might be asked to cover or tackle a 200 pound offensive player with no help.
A 5'5" BB player may be guarding a 6'2" player on every play if that's his position.
My point is that it would never be considered in any other sport.
Believe me I have been run over by a 250# fullback when I weighed about 110#. When i picked my butt up I didn't say to myself "hey maybe I should just play on the jv team". I got up strapped it back on and figured maybe I should lower my target area a bit. Didn't really help my tackling a lot but I was able to at least finish the game in one piece.
Quote from: imnofish on February 06, 2014, 12:56:36 PM
Quote from: Alumni on February 06, 2014, 12:48:29 PM
What do you think would happen if this was done in any other sport?
Does every small school have 9 solid baseball players, 11 solid football players, 5 solid BB players?
Would a coach ever even consider only suiting up 10 football, 8 baseball or 4 BB players?
Why is wrestling any different?
Every other sport fields athletes that are not upper echelon players and sometimes they may even be detrimental to there team.
I would like to see what happens to coach who has 6-7 good football players and decides to only put them on the field while the rest of the players watch.
In wrestling whats the worst that could happen, one kid gives up 6 team points? In any other sport one kid could be the reason behind giving up lots of points yet no coach would play with less the the maximum amount of starters.
How many ball players would stick it out if they didn't get to play and your team played with less starters than you are allowed.
I like what crosface said, at this point of the season these kids are pretty committed to the team.
So as a coach you really have nothing to lose but a whole lot to gain.
The difference is that kids in those sports don't go into a situation in which they are spotlighted as individual competitors. They are team sports and those kids can get physical support from their teammates. When that inexperienced kid is on the mat, he is on his own.
Tell the center fielder that lets the ball sail 2 inches beyond his outstretched glove or the point guard that lets the inbound pass bounce off his chest because he's got his head turned that they aren't in the spotlight as individuals. Every team sport relies on individual contributions.
Or the center that snaps the ball over his QB's head and into his own endzone on the first play of the game. mwahhahahahaha
About the only time I could see for sure holding someone out is for safety reasons. If they lack the experience and physical ability to defend themselves, as I most commonly see in heavyweights where a team is just trying to fill a spot. Nobody wins when there is a 10 second pin.
After that, one school of thought boils down to how you define success. If success is determined only by wins and losses, green wrestlers can't begin with realistic initial goals like staying in good position, not getting pinned, or scoring something other than an escape, etc.
Like it or not, the fragility of kids ego's is a factor that grows every year and is a very realistic concern for coaches these days.
Quote from: DrWhargoul on February 06, 2014, 01:37:59 PM
Quote from: imnofish on February 06, 2014, 12:56:36 PM
Quote from: Alumni on February 06, 2014, 12:48:29 PM
What do you think would happen if this was done in any other sport?
Does every small school have 9 solid baseball players, 11 solid football players, 5 solid BB players?
Would a coach ever even consider only suiting up 10 football, 8 baseball or 4 BB players?
Why is wrestling any different?
Every other sport fields athletes that are not upper echelon players and sometimes they may even be detrimental to there team.
I would like to see what happens to coach who has 6-7 good football players and decides to only put them on the field while the rest of the players watch.
In wrestling whats the worst that could happen, one kid gives up 6 team points? In any other sport one kid could be the reason behind giving up lots of points yet no coach would play with less the the maximum amount of starters.
How many ball players would stick it out if they didn't get to play and your team played with less starters than you are allowed.
I like what crosface said, at this point of the season these kids are pretty committed to the team.
So as a coach you really have nothing to lose but a whole lot to gain.
The difference is that kids in those sports don't go into a situation in which they are spotlighted as individual competitors. They are team sports and those kids can get physical support from their teammates. When that inexperienced kid is on the mat, he is on his own.
Tell the center fielder that lets the ball sail 2 inches beyond his outstretched glove or the point guard that lets the inbound pass bounce off his chest because he's got his head turned that they aren't in the spotlight as individuals. Every team sport relies on individual contributions.
Or the center that snaps the ball over his QB's head and into his own endzone on the first play of the game. mwahhahahahaha
I recently watched my granddaughter play center field for an entire softball season, as a senior flanked by two freshmen. Her speed, experience, and maturity allowed her to cover most of the outfield and back up the youngsters on nearly every play. When they messed up, she was there to help minimize the damage. For example, I saw her scoop up a missed ground ball from left field and throw a runner out at home plate. Can you give me a parallel example of this dynamic in wrestling?
Wrestling is a unique sport in many senses. It is one on one and it is much different than tennis. It is a physical agressive sport that almost makes one put his manhood on the line. Other sports do not have this. When you are on the free throw line all alone it is still not your "manhood" on the line.
The great coaches allow even the most green wrestlers ways to feel good about their performance or a way to feel victory with simplistic achievable goals. The key is that the whole team needs to know the goals so they can celebrate when achieved. I have seen wrestlers not recognize what a great help to a team it was when a wrestler did not give up a major or get pinned.
Sometimes a state champ can't pin a rookie wrestler but wins 12-1 and that is celebrated but it is really the rookie wrestler that had the team victory.
It depends on the kid and it depends on the situation which is why there are coaches. Sometimes you can sense a kid is lacking confidence and not enjoying the sport, then you don't send him out to get pinned. If he has some victories under his belt and is feeling pretty good and up to the challenge, then you go for it.
Exactly, Doc! It all boils down to the coach knowing his wrestlers and doing what is most likely the best for them.
Here is my example fish.
An inexperienced 145# gets taken down in a single leg and is pinned with a half Nelson. This happenes a couple times on a Saturday tournament. The following week the 145# wrestlers 220# teammate helps him work on the counters to the single leg and half Nelson. The following Saturday while the 145# wrestler is wrestling, the 220# wrestler and his teammates shout encouragement and directions to the 145# wrestler. He doesn't get taken down and doesn't get pinned. Teamwork at its best.
- Forfeits are bad for our sport.
- A very good way to learn where you have holes in your defense is to wrestle much better competition.
- Coaches need to coach. You don't just get to send out the guys that you think are going to win. You have to find the positives and "needs work" areas of each wrestler. Sometimes the goal is just individual progress, regardless of the outcome.
- Learning how to deal with losing is a part of life.
- Holding out may give the youth the impression that it's ok to quit if you're not going to win. Kids already treat enough stuff like a video game. We will make better adults if we teach them that they can't just reset the game when they start to lose.
Quote from: imnofish on February 06, 2014, 02:12:32 PM
Quote from: DrWhargoul on February 06, 2014, 01:37:59 PM
Quote from: imnofish on February 06, 2014, 12:56:36 PM
Quote from: Alumni on February 06, 2014, 12:48:29 PM
What do you think would happen if this was done in any other sport?
Does every small school have 9 solid baseball players, 11 solid football players, 5 solid BB players?
Would a coach ever even consider only suiting up 10 football, 8 baseball or 4 BB players?
Why is wrestling any different?
Every other sport fields athletes that are not upper echelon players and sometimes they may even be detrimental to there team.
I would like to see what happens to coach who has 6-7 good football players and decides to only put them on the field while the rest of the players watch.
In wrestling whats the worst that could happen, one kid gives up 6 team points? In any other sport one kid could be the reason behind giving up lots of points yet no coach would play with less the the maximum amount of starters.
How many ball players would stick it out if they didn't get to play and your team played with less starters than you are allowed.
I like what crosface said, at this point of the season these kids are pretty committed to the team.
So as a coach you really have nothing to lose but a whole lot to gain.
The difference is that kids in those sports don't go into a situation in which they are spotlighted as individual competitors. They are team sports and those kids can get physical support from their teammates. When that inexperienced kid is on the mat, he is on his own.
Tell the center fielder that lets the ball sail 2 inches beyond his outstretched glove or the point guard that lets the inbound pass bounce off his chest because he's got his head turned that they aren't in the spotlight as individuals. Every team sport relies on individual contributions.
Or the center that snaps the ball over his QB's head and into his own endzone on the first play of the game. mwahhahahahaha
I recently watched my granddaughter play center field for an entire softball season, as a senior flanked by two freshmen. Her speed, experience, and maturity allowed her to cover most of the outfield and back up the youngsters on nearly every play. When they messed up, she was there to help minimize the damage. For example, I saw her scoop up a missed ground ball from left field and throw a runner out at home plate. Can you give me a parallel example of this dynamic in wrestling?
Judging by some of your responses, it seems to me that you are saying those other two girl's may not have been qualified to be on the varsity. They were obviously out of their league and I'm sure themselves and their parents were embarrassed at times.
Should those two girls been sent to the jv level and your granddaughter been in the field by herself?
I bet the thought never crossed your mind because it wouldn't have helped any of them.
So why is wrestling so different?
Quote from: guillotine on February 06, 2014, 02:52:21 PM
Here is my example fish.
An inexperienced 145# gets taken down in a single leg and is pinned with a half Nelson. This happenes a couple times on a Saturday tournament. The following week the 145# wrestlers 220# teammate helps him work on the counters to the single leg and half Nelson. The following Saturday while the 145# wrestler is wrestling, the 220# wrestler and his teammates shout encouragement and directions to the 145# wrestler. He doesn't get taken down and doesn't get pinned. Teamwork at its best.
That can happen in any sport and it should. The difference is that when he is on his back during competition, his teammate can't help save his bacon. The responsibility is all on his shoulders at that point and not every kid is ready for that kind of responsibility and pressure, yet. Other folks don't look at the situation the same way wrestlers do, so the social pressure can be pretty brutal. When my son was a freshman in high school, he beat out the previous year's varsity kid to earn a spot on the team. He only won about a third of his matches, though, as he was wrestling mostly upperclassmen. The guys on the FRESHMEN basketball team, who were enjoying a winning season, really started to ride him about having a losing record. He pointed out to them that he was competing mostly against older, more mature athletes, but they just didn't see the relevance. At one point, it turned into a class discussion, in which the teacher joined the aggressors. We stepped in and made some waves and the teacher (who was a very good one) accepted responsibility, publicly apologized, and set the basketball players straight on the situation. My point is not to denigrate the teacher or the basketball team, but to point out that the mindset of the general population can be a detriment that the wrestler must deal with, and that should be considered when comparing wrestling to other sports considered more mainstream. In regard to the question about whether the freshmen outfielders and their parents were embarrassed, there are some obvious differences, when comparing this situation to wrestling. First of all, the team didn't have the option of forfeiting. Also, the girls were not judged as individuals, but as part of the team and they did make their contributions over the course of the season. However, they did not have the same weight on their shoulders (no pun intended) as they would if wrestling. The attitude of the community was that they made varsity and the varsity was doing okay, so they must be okay. See the difference?
So are you guys saying that if you don't have all weight classes filled you can't compete in that duel? There are rules in baseball, football, and softball where you have to have a minimum number of players. I am sure you know this but are you saying we should force coaches to send kids out even if they feel that shouldn't?
Chuck
Quote from: imnofish on February 06, 2014, 03:21:11 PM
Quote from: guillotine on February 06, 2014, 02:52:21 PM
Here is my example fish.
An inexperienced 145# gets taken down in a single leg and is pinned with a half Nelson. This happenes a couple times on a Saturday tournament. The following week the 145# wrestlers 220# teammate helps him work on the counters to the single leg and half Nelson. The following Saturday while the 145# wrestler is wrestling, the 220# wrestler and his teammates shout encouragement and directions to the 145# wrestler. He doesn't get taken down and doesn't get pinned. Teamwork at its best.
That can happen in any sport and it should. The difference is that when he is on his back during competition, his teammate can't help save his bacon. The responsibility is all on his shoulders at that point and not every kid is ready for that kind of responsibility and pressure, yet. Other folks don't look at the situation the same way wrestlers do, so the social pressure can be pretty brutal. When my son was a freshman in high school, he beat out the previous year's varsity kid to earn a spot on the team. He only won about a third of his matches, though, as he was wrestling mostly upperclassmen. The guys on the FRESHMEN basketball team, who were enjoying a winning season, really started to ride him about having a losing record. He pointed out to them that he was competing mostly against older, more mature athletes, but they just didn't see the relevance. At one point, it turned into a class discussion, in which the teacher joined the aggressors. We stepped in and made some waves and the teacher (who was a very good one) accepted responsibility, publicly apologized, and set the basketball players straight on the situation. My point is not to denigrate the teacher or the basketball team, but to point out that the mindset of the general population can be a detriment that the wrestler must deal with, and that should be considered when comparing wrestling to other sports considered more mainstream. In regard to the question about whether the freshmen outfielders and their parents were embarrassed, there are some obvious differences, when comparing this situation to wrestling. First of all, the team didn't have the option of forfeiting. Also, the girls were not judged as individuals, but as part of the team and they did make their contributions over the course of the season. However, they did not have the same weight on their shoulders (no pun intended) as they would if wrestling. The attitude of the community was that they made varsity and the varsity was doing okay, so they must be okay. See the difference?
Why are we so worried about saving someone's "bacon" ? That's the best part of wrestling is learning to deal with adversity without 5 or ten others to save you.
Quote from: aarons23 on February 06, 2014, 03:24:16 PM
Quote from: imnofish on February 06, 2014, 03:21:11 PM
Quote from: guillotine on February 06, 2014, 02:52:21 PM
Here is my example fish.
An inexperienced 145# gets taken down in a single leg and is pinned with a half Nelson. This happenes a couple times on a Saturday tournament. The following week the 145# wrestlers 220# teammate helps him work on the counters to the single leg and half Nelson. The following Saturday while the 145# wrestler is wrestling, the 220# wrestler and his teammates shout encouragement and directions to the 145# wrestler. He doesn't get taken down and doesn't get pinned. Teamwork at its best.
That can happen in any sport and it should. The difference is that when he is on his back during competition, his teammate can't help save his bacon. The responsibility is all on his shoulders at that point and not every kid is ready for that kind of responsibility and pressure, yet. Other folks don't look at the situation the same way wrestlers do, so the social pressure can be pretty brutal. When my son was a freshman in high school, he beat out the previous year's varsity kid to earn a spot on the team. He only won about a third of his matches, though, as he was wrestling mostly upperclassmen. The guys on the FRESHMEN basketball team, who were enjoying a winning season, really started to ride him about having a losing record. He pointed out to them that he was competing mostly against older, more mature athletes, but they just didn't see the relevance. At one point, it turned into a class discussion, in which the teacher joined the aggressors. We stepped in and made some waves and the teacher (who was a very good one) accepted responsibility, publicly apologized, and set the basketball players straight on the situation. My point is not to denigrate the teacher or the basketball team, but to point out that the mindset of the general population can be a detriment that the wrestler must deal with, and that should be considered when comparing wrestling to other sports considered more mainstream. In regard to the question about whether the freshmen outfielders and their parents were embarrassed, there are some obvious differences, when comparing this situation to wrestling. First of all, the team didn't have the option of forfeiting. Also, the girls were not judged as individuals, but as part of the team and they did make their contributions over the course of the season. However, they did not have the same weight on their shoulders (no pun intended) as they would if wrestling. The attitude of the community was that they made varsity and the varsity was doing okay, so they must be okay. See the difference?
Why are we so worried about saving someone's "bacon" ? That's the best part of wrestling is learning to deal with adversity without 5 or ten others to save you.
I'm not worried about that, but pointing out that the non-wrestling community does not see it the same way we do and that can be a deal breaker for some kids who just aren't ready. I've known kids who quit wrestling over this type of pressure, because it just became overwhelming for them. My stance is, and always has been, that the coach should be entrusted with the responsibility for knowing his wrestlers and making the individually-appropriate call on this issue.
Kids wrestle because it is fun. It is up to the coach to figure out what makes it fun for that individual. Some will have fun going out and challenging anyone and don't care what anyone else thinks.
Others are more sensitive and it is going to be no fun to go out and get pounded on while friends and family are watching.
Some wrestlers wrestle better in tournaments because they feel less pressure with multiple mats going on versus being the one match.
If they are not having fun then you are not going to get maximum effort anyway. No policy will be the same for every wrestler.
Some kids want to be state champs. Some just want a letter. Some just want to be part of a team.
This has been a great conversation and I respect everyone's opinion.
My opinion is that these handful of kids have been on the team for the whole season. They understand their skill level and what the general outcome will be, yet they are begging for a chance to wrestle, be part of the team and finish the season on the mat not in the stands. Doesn't seem like to much to ask.
Quote from: Alumni on February 06, 2014, 04:34:47 PM
This has been a great conversation and I respect everyone's opinion.
My opinion is that these handful of kids have been on the team for the whole season. They understand their skill level and what the general outcome will be, yet they are begging for a chance to wrestle, be part of the team and finish the season on the mat not in the stands. Doesn't seem like to much to ask.
I would hope that would be the attitude of everyone because then no matter what it has been a great season. My fear is that some are beaten up and discouraged and want the season over. The coach has to figure out which one each wrestler is.
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 06, 2014, 03:49:53 PM
Kids wrestle because it is fun. It is up to the coach to figure out what makes it fun for that individual. Some will have fun going out and challenging anyone and don't care what anyone else thinks.
Others are more sensitive and it is going to be no fun to go out and get pounded on while friends and family are watching.
Some wrestlers wrestle better in tournaments because they feel less pressure with multiple mats going on versus being the one match.
If they are not having fun then you are not going to get maximum effort anyway. No policy will be the same for every wrestler.
Some kids want to be state champs. Some just want a letter. Some just want to be part of a team.
Yep. Can't argue with that.
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 06, 2014, 04:44:36 PM
Quote from: Alumni on February 06, 2014, 04:34:47 PM
This has been a great conversation and I respect everyone's opinion.
My opinion is that these handful of kids have been on the team for the whole season. They understand their skill level and what the general outcome will be, yet they are begging for a chance to wrestle, be part of the team and finish the season on the mat not in the stands. Doesn't seem like to much to ask.
I would hope that would be the attitude of everyone because then no matter what it has been a great season. My fear is that some are beaten up and discouraged and want the season over. The coach has to figure out which one each wrestler is.
Sounds like we are on the same page.
That is the problem with having so many weights. More quantity, less quality. Putting a kid on varsity before he is ready and getting hammered.
I would not use the word "fun" to describe it. I would use other words but not that one.
Quote from: Alumni on February 06, 2014, 04:34:47 PM
This has been a great conversation and I respect everyone's opinion.
My opinion is that these handful of kids have been on the team for the whole season. They understand their skill level and what the general outcome will be, yet they are begging for a chance to wrestle, be part of the team and finish the season on the mat not in the stands. Doesn't seem like to much to ask.
I think feb 15th is much different than dec 15th, and yet it still likely depends on the kid but most should be improved enough to compete on varsity.
Quote from: howavi on February 06, 2014, 06:43:55 PM
Quote from: Alumni on February 06, 2014, 04:34:47 PM
This has been a great conversation and I respect everyone's opinion.
My opinion is that these handful of kids have been on the team for the whole season. They understand their skill level and what the general outcome will be, yet they are begging for a chance to wrestle, be part of the team and finish the season on the mat not in the stands. Doesn't seem like to much to ask.
I think feb 15th is much different than dec 15th, and yet it still likely depends on the kid but most should be improved enough to compete on varsity.
I hate to use a famous baskeball coach by the name of Pat Riley on a wrestling forum but I couldn't resist.... "There comes a time when everyone has to plant their feet and kick some inappropriate term2" Pat was a little kid and used to go to the playground with his older brother and one day he came home crying about how he was getting beat up so bad on the BB court. The quote above is from Pat's dad, because if he didn't decide to plant his feet he was going to have to stay home. For some kids planting your feet is getting pinned in the 2nd minute and not the 1st, for others it's scoring one point, others it's not giving up a pin. I believe that kids don't need to be coddled, they need to be encouraged to get a little better each time they battle, plant their feet and take a stand!
Quote from: Alumni on February 06, 2014, 03:11:23 PM
Quote from: imnofish on February 06, 2014, 02:12:32 PM
Quote from: DrWhargoul on February 06, 2014, 01:37:59 PM
Quote from: imnofish on February 06, 2014, 12:56:36 PM
Quote from: Alumni on February 06, 2014, 12:48:29 PM
What do you think would happen if this was done in any other sport?
Does every small school have 9 solid baseball players, 11 solid football players, 5 solid BB players?
Would a coach ever even consider only suiting up 10 football, 8 baseball or 4 BB players?
Why is wrestling any different?
Every other sport fields athletes that are not upper echelon players and sometimes they may even be detrimental to there team.
I would like to see what happens to coach who has 6-7 good football players and decides to only put them on the field while the rest of the players watch.
In wrestling whats the worst that could happen, one kid gives up 6 team points? In any other sport one kid could be the reason behind giving up lots of points yet no coach would play with less the the maximum amount of starters.
How many ball players would stick it out if they didn't get to play and your team played with less starters than you are allowed.
I like what crosface said, at this point of the season these kids are pretty committed to the team.
So as a coach you really have nothing to lose but a whole lot to gain.
The difference is that kids in those sports don't go into a situation in which they are spotlighted as individual competitors. They are team sports and those kids can get physical support from their teammates. When that inexperienced kid is on the mat, he is on his own.
Tell the center fielder that lets the ball sail 2 inches beyond his outstretched glove or the point guard that lets the inbound pass bounce off his chest because he's got his head turned that they aren't in the spotlight as individuals. Every team sport relies on individual contributions.
Or the center that snaps the ball over his QB's head and into his own endzone on the first play of the game. mwahhahahahaha
I recently watched my granddaughter play center field for an entire softball season, as a senior flanked by two freshmen. Her speed, experience, and maturity allowed her to cover most of the outfield and back up the youngsters on nearly every play. When they messed up, she was there to help minimize the damage. For example, I saw her scoop up a missed ground ball from left field and throw a runner out at home plate. Can you give me a parallel example of this dynamic in wrestling?
Judging by some of your responses, it seems to me that you are saying those other two girl's may not have been qualified to be on the varsity. They were obviously out of their league and I'm sure themselves and their parents were embarrassed at times.
Should those two girls been sent to the jv level and your granddaughter been in the field by herself?
I bet the thought never crossed your mind because it wouldn't have helped any of them.
So why is wrestling so different?
It isn't an apples-to-apples comparison to use any other sport to compare with how coaches deal with situations. In your last statement here, you suggest maybe the two corner outfielders aren't "qualified" to be on varsity. In baseball/softball, there are two major components to the game, offense & defense. Maybe the girls are the two best hitters on the team, and because the CF has so much range, the coach can "hide" the corner outfielders and still use their bats on offense.
Wrestling isn't like other sports. You have to have certain kids that fit a certain profile - that being they have to weigh a certain amount to be eligible for a specific weight class. There is also free substitution in most other sports. Most people learn by doing. You need practice time and time on the mat to get better. If you hold a kid that isn't ready for varsity competition and will get pinned in 0:20 seconds out of the varsity match because he can get 1 or 2 jv matches that may last 4-6 minutes each, think of the additional mat time this kid gets, rather than being on "varsity" in a spot that they have possibly only "earned" because they ate a lighter lunch and weigh less than their brother that day.
Quote from: justaclone22 on February 07, 2014, 11:55:01 AM
Quote from: Alumni on February 06, 2014, 03:11:23 PM
Quote from: imnofish on February 06, 2014, 02:12:32 PM
Quote from: DrWhargoul on February 06, 2014, 01:37:59 PM
Quote from: imnofish on February 06, 2014, 12:56:36 PM
Quote from: Alumni on February 06, 2014, 12:48:29 PM
What do you think would happen if this was done in any other sport?
Does every small school have 9 solid baseball players, 11 solid football players, 5 solid BB players?
Would a coach ever even consider only suiting up 10 football, 8 baseball or 4 BB players?
Why is wrestling any different?
Every other sport fields athletes that are not upper echelon players and sometimes they may even be detrimental to there team.
I would like to see what happens to coach who has 6-7 good football players and decides to only put them on the field while the rest of the players watch.
In wrestling whats the worst that could happen, one kid gives up 6 team points? In any other sport one kid could be the reason behind giving up lots of points yet no coach would play with less the the maximum amount of starters.
How many ball players would stick it out if they didn't get to play and your team played with less starters than you are allowed.
I like what crosface said, at this point of the season these kids are pretty committed to the team.
So as a coach you really have nothing to lose but a whole lot to gain.
The difference is that kids in those sports don't go into a situation in which they are spotlighted as individual competitors. They are team sports and those kids can get physical support from their teammates. When that inexperienced kid is on the mat, he is on his own.
Tell the center fielder that lets the ball sail 2 inches beyond his outstretched glove or the point guard that lets the inbound pass bounce off his chest because he's got his head turned that they aren't in the spotlight as individuals. Every team sport relies on individual contributions.
Or the center that snaps the ball over his QB's head and into his own endzone on the first play of the game. mwahhahahahaha
I recently watched my granddaughter play center field for an entire softball season, as a senior flanked by two freshmen. Her speed, experience, and maturity allowed her to cover most of the outfield and back up the youngsters on nearly every play. When they messed up, she was there to help minimize the damage. For example, I saw her scoop up a missed ground ball from left field and throw a runner out at home plate. Can you give me a parallel example of this dynamic in wrestling?
Judging by some of your responses, it seems to me that you are saying those other two girl's may not have been qualified to be on the varsity. They were obviously out of their league and I'm sure themselves and their parents were embarrassed at times.
Should those two girls been sent to the jv level and your granddaughter been in the field by herself?
I bet the thought never crossed your mind because it wouldn't have helped any of them.
So why is wrestling so different?
It isn't an apples-to-apples comparison to use any other sport to compare with how coaches deal with situations. In your last statement here, you suggest maybe the two corner outfielders aren't "qualified" to be on varsity. In baseball/softball, there are two major components to the game, offense & defense. Maybe the girls are the two best hitters on the team, and because the CF has so much range, the coach can "hide" the corner outfielders and still use their bats on offense.
Wrestling isn't like other sports. You have to have certain kids that fit a certain profile - that being they have to weigh a certain amount to be eligible for a specific weight class. There is also free substitution in most other sports. Most people learn by doing. You need practice time and time on the mat to get better. If you hold a kid that isn't ready for varsity competition and will get pinned in 0:20 seconds out of the varsity match because he can get 1 or 2 jv matches that may last 4-6 minutes each, think of the additional mat time this kid gets, rather than being on "varsity" in a spot that they have possibly only "earned" because they ate a lighter lunch and weigh less than their brother that day.
And MAYBE those two outfielders were the worst hitters in the league but their coach put them in the lineup because they were the best they had. And MAYBE next year or down the road they turn into very reliable players and maybe even excel at the game.
Don't come on here and tell everyone it isn't apples to apples then throw a bunch of MAYBEYS around.
You act like every varsity wrestler is going to pin a JV wrestler in 20 seconds every time. Who says just because a coach says you can't wrestle varsity that they are not able to win a varsity match or be competitive in a varsity match?
Take a look at the teams at any given non elimination tournament, then look at the bottom half of the records in any weight class . I would be shocked if more time than not there are more VARSITY wrestlers with losing records wrestling on the back side of the bracket than winning records. Should they all be demoted to JV or do they get some pretty darn good competition on the backside of those tournaments?
If you read the entire post you can see that Alumni is talking about a specific incident. Not the beginning of the year where there are JV opportunity's.
He made it very clear that this team has a chance at a conference and regional championship and the coach has made a decision not to allow several of the underclassmen to participate.
Quote from: justaclone22 on February 07, 2014, 11:55:01 AM
Quote from: Alumni on February 06, 2014, 03:11:23 PM
Quote from: imnofish on February 06, 2014, 02:12:32 PM
Quote from: DrWhargoul on February 06, 2014, 01:37:59 PM
Quote from: imnofish on February 06, 2014, 12:56:36 PM
Quote from: Alumni on February 06, 2014, 12:48:29 PM
What do you think would happen if this was done in any other sport?
Does every small school have 9 solid baseball players, 11 solid football players, 5 solid BB players?
Would a coach ever even consider only suiting up 10 football, 8 baseball or 4 BB players?
Why is wrestling any different?
Every other sport fields athletes that are not upper echelon players and sometimes they may even be detrimental to there team.
I would like to see what happens to coach who has 6-7 good football players and decides to only put them on the field while the rest of the players watch.
In wrestling whats the worst that could happen, one kid gives up 6 team points? In any other sport one kid could be the reason behind giving up lots of points yet no coach would play with less the the maximum amount of starters.
How many ball players would stick it out if they didn't get to play and your team played with less starters than you are allowed.
I like what crosface said, at this point of the season these kids are pretty committed to the team.
So as a coach you really have nothing to lose but a whole lot to gain.
The difference is that kids in those sports don't go into a situation in which they are spotlighted as individual competitors. They are team sports and those kids can get physical support from their teammates. When that inexperienced kid is on the mat, he is on his own.
Tell the center fielder that lets the ball sail 2 inches beyond his outstretched glove or the point guard that lets the inbound pass bounce off his chest because he's got his head turned that they aren't in the spotlight as individuals. Every team sport relies on individual contributions.
Or the center that snaps the ball over his QB's head and into his own endzone on the first play of the game. mwahhahahahaha
I recently watched my granddaughter play center field for an entire softball season, as a senior flanked by two freshmen. Her speed, experience, and maturity allowed her to cover most of the outfield and back up the youngsters on nearly every play. When they messed up, she was there to help minimize the damage. For example, I saw her scoop up a missed ground ball from left field and throw a runner out at home plate. Can you give me a parallel example of this dynamic in wrestling?
Judging by some of your responses, it seems to me that you are saying those other two girl's may not have been qualified to be on the varsity. They were obviously out of their league and I'm sure themselves and their parents were embarrassed at times.
Should those two girls been sent to the jv level and your granddaughter been in the field by herself?
I bet the thought never crossed your mind because it wouldn't have helped any of them.
So why is wrestling so different?
It isn't an apples-to-apples comparison to use any other sport to compare with how coaches deal with situations. In your last statement here, you suggest maybe the two corner outfielders aren't "qualified" to be on varsity. In baseball/softball, there are two major components to the game, offense & defense. Maybe the girls are the two best hitters on the team, and because the CF has so much range, the coach can "hide" the corner outfielders and still use their bats on offense.
Wrestling isn't like other sports. You have to have certain kids that fit a certain profile - that being they have to weigh a certain amount to be eligible for a specific weight class. There is also free substitution in most other sports. Most people learn by doing. You need practice time and time on the mat to get better. If you hold a kid that isn't ready for varsity competition and will get pinned in 0:20 seconds out of the varsity match because he can get 1 or 2 jv matches that may last 4-6 minutes each, think of the additional mat time this kid gets, rather than being on "varsity" in a spot that they have possibly only "earned" because they ate a lighter lunch and weigh less than their brother that day.
I didn't suggest they weren't qualified, I suggested that Fish suggested that maybe they weren't qualified.
So I suggest that if you have a suggestion about whether I made a suggestion or was suggesting that someone else made a suggestion you should read it a little closer. ;/
Quote from: chuckref on February 06, 2014, 03:22:25 PM
So are you guys saying that if you don't have all weight classes filled you can't compete in that duel? There are rules in baseball, football, and softball where you have to have a minimum number of players. I am sure you know this but are you saying we should force coaches to send kids out even if they feel that shouldn't?
Chuck
Chuck, you obviously get my point. Maybe you could draw a few diagrams for them. ;)
I'm still waiting for their answer.
Chuck
Might harm the very most vulnerable; but I do trust a coach, and the competitor, there.
I like telling that kid who worked hard "win..lose..who cares? Just go get him and win/loss be danged. Give 'em whatcha got, BUT ALL OF WHAT YOU GOT.; no regrets if you do that. No tantrums if you lose; walk like a man."
Good day when they don't get pinned. Better, if they don't get teched. Even better if they lose major decision or just have the sand to keep it close. That's my favorite magic wrestling moment, when that kid who took the whoopin's gives a good one to someone he shouldn't beat. I'm not a kissy person; but that kid deserves some accolades. Makes my day.
I'd rather lose than not wrestle. Been pinned plenty. Makes you dislike getting pinned more.
When the wrestlers come back with their own wives and kids, they always say they miss the duals. Something important about the team aspect to my kids. They seem to resemble an ant hill with many workers and a few supervisors. Nice team. Don't mess with ants. I learned the hard way. Leaf cutters are bad boyz.
Or "JUST DON'T GET PINNED!!!!"
jk
Quote from: Alumni on February 07, 2014, 04:15:44 PM
Quote from: justaclone22 on February 07, 2014, 11:55:01 AM
Quote from: Alumni on February 06, 2014, 03:11:23 PM
Quote from: imnofish on February 06, 2014, 02:12:32 PM
Quote from: DrWhargoul on February 06, 2014, 01:37:59 PM
Quote from: imnofish on February 06, 2014, 12:56:36 PM
Quote from: Alumni on February 06, 2014, 12:48:29 PM
What do you think would happen if this was done in any other sport?
Does every small school have 9 solid baseball players, 11 solid football players, 5 solid BB players?
Would a coach ever even consider only suiting up 10 football, 8 baseball or 4 BB players?
Why is wrestling any different?
Every other sport fields athletes that are not upper echelon players and sometimes they may even be detrimental to there team.
I would like to see what happens to coach who has 6-7 good football players and decides to only put them on the field while the rest of the players watch.
In wrestling whats the worst that could happen, one kid gives up 6 team points? In any other sport one kid could be the reason behind giving up lots of points yet no coach would play with less the the maximum amount of starters.
How many ball players would stick it out if they didn't get to play and your team played with less starters than you are allowed.
I like what crosface said, at this point of the season these kids are pretty committed to the team.
So as a coach you really have nothing to lose but a whole lot to gain.
The difference is that kids in those sports don't go into a situation in which they are spotlighted as individual competitors. They are team sports and those kids can get physical support from their teammates. When that inexperienced kid is on the mat, he is on his own.
Tell the center fielder that lets the ball sail 2 inches beyond his outstretched glove or the point guard that lets the inbound pass bounce off his chest because he's got his head turned that they aren't in the spotlight as individuals. Every team sport relies on individual contributions.
Or the center that snaps the ball over his QB's head and into his own endzone on the first play of the game. mwahhahahahaha
I recently watched my granddaughter play center field for an entire softball season, as a senior flanked by two freshmen. Her speed, experience, and maturity allowed her to cover most of the outfield and back up the youngsters on nearly every play. When they messed up, she was there to help minimize the damage. For example, I saw her scoop up a missed ground ball from left field and throw a runner out at home plate. Can you give me a parallel example of this dynamic in wrestling?
Judging by some of your responses, it seems to me that you are saying those other two girl's may not have been qualified to be on the varsity. They were obviously out of their league and I'm sure themselves and their parents were embarrassed at times.
Should those two girls been sent to the jv level and your granddaughter been in the field by herself?
I bet the thought never crossed your mind because it wouldn't have helped any of them.
So why is wrestling so different?
It isn't an apples-to-apples comparison to use any other sport to compare with how coaches deal with situations. In your last statement here, you suggest maybe the two corner outfielders aren't "qualified" to be on varsity. In baseball/softball, there are two major components to the game, offense & defense. Maybe the girls are the two best hitters on the team, and because the CF has so much range, the coach can "hide" the corner outfielders and still use their bats on offense.
Wrestling isn't like other sports. You have to have certain kids that fit a certain profile - that being they have to weigh a certain amount to be eligible for a specific weight class. There is also free substitution in most other sports. Most people learn by doing. You need practice time and time on the mat to get better. If you hold a kid that isn't ready for varsity competition and will get pinned in 0:20 seconds out of the varsity match because he can get 1 or 2 jv matches that may last 4-6 minutes each, think of the additional mat time this kid gets, rather than being on "varsity" in a spot that they have possibly only "earned" because they ate a lighter lunch and weigh less than their brother that day.
I didn't suggest they weren't qualified, I suggested that Fish suggested that maybe they weren't qualified.
So I suggest that if you have a suggestion about whether I made a suggestion or was suggesting that someone else made a suggestion you should read it a little closer. ;/
I want to go on the record here as stating that I was in no way suggesting that the two freshmen outfielders weren't qualified. As I previously stated, they made their contributions to the team. They made plays, but benefited from the backup that a more experienced player was able to provide, when it was needed. As the season wore on, that support was needed less and less, due to their growth in the position. Of course, they could hit the ball, too. This story was shared for the purpose of illustrating the ability of team members to assist each other in some sports, but in ways that wrestlers can't. Team sports require the filling of each position, without the option of "forfeiting" that component of the competition. This puts them in the position of having to play the best (and sometimes only) candidate available for each position. At times, this puts the coach in the unenviable position of having to put a player on varsity prematurely, so that the team is able to participate. Wrestling is unique in that it gives coaches the latitude to avoid that situation, by forfeiting a weight class, without disqualifying the rest of the team from competition. Apparently, the coach of your local team has made the determination that it is in the best interests of some wrestlers to postpone their varsity experience. Evidently, you take issue with that and have come on here to gain assurance that you are right about this and the coach is wrong. I say this because you ask for our opinions, but then seem to argue toward a particular viewpoint, perhaps unconsciously. The fact remains that it is the coach's responsibility to make the decision in question and no amount of discussion on here is going to change that. Sorry if my tone sounds a bit harsh, but that's the reality of the situation. In the best interest of the team and its members, I suggest that you put your full support behind the coach, because he obviously is taking his responsibility to these kids seriously... and that should be the top priority.
In other sports there is minimum amount of player you can play with. Do you See a coach only playing with 7 baseball players or 4 basketball players(the minimum might be only 3)?
I am sure they would and have had someone out there that should not be playing at that level because they know their chances are better with extra bodies.
In basketball the 5th person can still slow someone down no matter how bad they are.
Quote from: imnofish on February 07, 2014, 09:31:42 PM
Quote from: Alumni on February 07, 2014, 04:15:44 PM
Quote from: justaclone22 on February 07, 2014, 11:55:01 AM
Quote from: Alumni on February 06, 2014, 03:11:23 PM
Quote from: imnofish on February 06, 2014, 02:12:32 PM
Quote from: DrWhargoul on February 06, 2014, 01:37:59 PM
Quote from: imnofish on February 06, 2014, 12:56:36 PM
Quote from: Alumni on February 06, 2014, 12:48:29 PM
What do you think would happen if this was done in any other sport?
Does every small school have 9 solid baseball players, 11 solid football players, 5 solid BB players?
Would a coach ever even consider only suiting up 10 football, 8 baseball or 4 BB players?
Why is wrestling any different?
Every other sport fields athletes that are not upper echelon players and sometimes they may even be detrimental to there team.
I would like to see what happens to coach who has 6-7 good football players and decides to only put them on the field while the rest of the players watch.
In wrestling whats the worst that could happen, one kid gives up 6 team points? In any other sport one kid could be the reason behind giving up lots of points yet no coach would play with less the the maximum amount of starters.
How many ball players would stick it out if they didn't get to play and your team played with less starters than you are allowed.
I like what crosface said, at this point of the season these kids are pretty committed to the team.
So as a coach you really have nothing to lose but a whole lot to gain.
The difference is that kids in those sports don't go into a situation in which they are spotlighted as individual competitors. They are team sports and those kids can get physical support from their teammates. When that inexperienced kid is on the mat, he is on his own.
Tell the center fielder that lets the ball sail 2 inches beyond his outstretched glove or the point guard that lets the inbound pass bounce off his chest because he's got his head turned that they aren't in the spotlight as individuals. Every team sport relies on individual contributions.
Or the center that snaps the ball over his QB's head and into his own endzone on the first play of the game. mwahhahahahaha
I recently watched my granddaughter play center field for an entire softball season, as a senior flanked by two freshmen. Her speed, experience, and maturity allowed her to cover most of the outfield and back up the youngsters on nearly every play. When they messed up, she was there to help minimize the damage. For example, I saw her scoop up a missed ground ball from left field and throw a runner out at home plate. Can you give me a parallel example of this dynamic in wrestling?
Judging by some of your responses, it seems to me that you are saying those other two girl's may not have been qualified to be on the varsity. They were obviously out of their league and I'm sure themselves and their parents were embarrassed at times.
Should those two girls been sent to the jv level and your granddaughter been in the field by herself?
I bet the thought never crossed your mind because it wouldn't have helped any of them.
So why is wrestling so different?
It isn't an apples-to-apples comparison to use any other sport to compare with how coaches deal with situations. In your last statement here, you suggest maybe the two corner outfielders aren't "qualified" to be on varsity. In baseball/softball, there are two major components to the game, offense & defense. Maybe the girls are the two best hitters on the team, and because the CF has so much range, the coach can "hide" the corner outfielders and still use their bats on offense.
Wrestling isn't like other sports. You have to have certain kids that fit a certain profile - that being they have to weigh a certain amount to be eligible for a specific weight class. There is also free substitution in most other sports. Most people learn by doing. You need practice time and time on the mat to get better. If you hold a kid that isn't ready for varsity competition and will get pinned in 0:20 seconds out of the varsity match because he can get 1 or 2 jv matches that may last 4-6 minutes each, think of the additional mat time this kid gets, rather than being on "varsity" in a spot that they have possibly only "earned" because they ate a lighter lunch and weigh less than their brother that day.
I didn't suggest they weren't qualified, I suggested that Fish suggested that maybe they weren't qualified.
So I suggest that if you have a suggestion about whether I made a suggestion or was suggesting that someone else made a suggestion you should read it a little closer. ;/
I want to go on the record here as stating that I was in no way suggesting that the two freshmen outfielders weren't qualified. As I previously stated, they made their contributions to the team. They made plays, but benefited from the backup that a more experienced player was able to provide, when it was needed. As the season wore on, that support was needed less and less, due to their growth in the position. Of course, they could hit the ball, too. This story was shared for the purpose of illustrating the ability of team members to assist each other in some sports, but in ways that wrestlers can't. Team sports require the filling of each position, without the option of "forfeiting" that component of the competition. This puts them in the position of having to play the best (and sometimes only) candidate available for each position. At times, this puts the coach in the unenviable position of having to put a player on varsity prematurely, so that the team is able to participate. Wrestling is unique in that it gives coaches the latitude to avoid that situation, by forfeiting a weight class, without disqualifying the rest of the team from competition. Apparently, the coach of your local team has made the determination that it is in the best interests of some wrestlers to postpone their varsity experience. Evidently, you take issue with that and have come on here to gain assurance that you are right about this and the coach is wrong. I say this because you ask for our opinions, but then seem to argue toward a particular viewpoint, perhaps unconsciously. The fact remains that it is the coach's responsibility to make the decision in question and no amount of discussion on here is going to change that. Sorry if my tone sounds a bit harsh, but that's the reality of the situation. In the best interest of the team and its members, I suggest that you put your full support behind the coach, because he obviously is taking his responsibility to these kids seriously... and that should be the top priority.
Believe me Fish, I don't need your assurance or anyone else's to make up my mind what I feel is right or wrong. It seems like you are asking for the assurance that your opinion is right by having Chuck validate your point.
Maybe comparing to other sports is completely different but I don't think so. I think you think that because your still stuck in the mind set that Wrestling is an individual sport. And please don't lecture me on how wrestling is unique.
Excuse me if I don't go through life blindly following our leadership, I don't think this coach is right so I'm not going to blindly follow and agree. Sure there is nothing I can do about it and the forum sometimes is a good place just to vent.
Wrestling has taught me that you need a team to succeed but you are also an individual and should lead your life having your own thoughts and ideas not just following someone else's just because they may be the one in charge.
That's why our country is in the shape it is now.
I absolutely respect your opinions and have looked forward to reading them, I just don't agree this time.
Quote from: Alumni on February 08, 2014, 08:06:05 AM
Quote from: imnofish on February 07, 2014, 09:31:42 PM
Quote from: Alumni on February 07, 2014, 04:15:44 PM
Quote from: justaclone22 on February 07, 2014, 11:55:01 AM
Quote from: Alumni on February 06, 2014, 03:11:23 PM
Quote from: imnofish on February 06, 2014, 02:12:32 PM
Quote from: DrWhargoul on February 06, 2014, 01:37:59 PM
Quote from: imnofish on February 06, 2014, 12:56:36 PM
Quote from: Alumni on February 06, 2014, 12:48:29 PM
What do you think would happen if this was done in any other sport?
Does every small school have 9 solid baseball players, 11 solid football players, 5 solid BB players?
Would a coach ever even consider only suiting up 10 football, 8 baseball or 4 BB players?
Why is wrestling any different?
Every other sport fields athletes that are not upper echelon players and sometimes they may even be detrimental to there team.
I would like to see what happens to coach who has 6-7 good football players and decides to only put them on the field while the rest of the players watch.
In wrestling whats the worst that could happen, one kid gives up 6 team points? In any other sport one kid could be the reason behind giving up lots of points yet no coach would play with less the the maximum amount of starters.
How many ball players would stick it out if they didn't get to play and your team played with less starters than you are allowed.
I like what crosface said, at this point of the season these kids are pretty committed to the team.
So as a coach you really have nothing to lose but a whole lot to gain.
The difference is that kids in those sports don't go into a situation in which they are spotlighted as individual competitors. They are team sports and those kids can get physical support from their teammates. When that inexperienced kid is on the mat, he is on his own.
Tell the center fielder that lets the ball sail 2 inches beyond his outstretched glove or the point guard that lets the inbound pass bounce off his chest because he's got his head turned that they aren't in the spotlight as individuals. Every team sport relies on individual contributions.
Or the center that snaps the ball over his QB's head and into his own endzone on the first play of the game. mwahhahahahaha
I recently watched my granddaughter play center field for an entire softball season, as a senior flanked by two freshmen. Her speed, experience, and maturity allowed her to cover most of the outfield and back up the youngsters on nearly every play. When they messed up, she was there to help minimize the damage. For example, I saw her scoop up a missed ground ball from left field and throw a runner out at home plate. Can you give me a parallel example of this dynamic in wrestling?
Judging by some of your responses, it seems to me that you are saying those other two girl's may not have been qualified to be on the varsity. They were obviously out of their league and I'm sure themselves and their parents were embarrassed at times.
Should those two girls been sent to the jv level and your granddaughter been in the field by herself?
I bet the thought never crossed your mind because it wouldn't have helped any of them.
So why is wrestling so different?
It isn't an apples-to-apples comparison to use any other sport to compare with how coaches deal with situations. In your last statement here, you suggest maybe the two corner outfielders aren't "qualified" to be on varsity. In baseball/softball, there are two major components to the game, offense & defense. Maybe the girls are the two best hitters on the team, and because the CF has so much range, the coach can "hide" the corner outfielders and still use their bats on offense.
Wrestling isn't like other sports. You have to have certain kids that fit a certain profile - that being they have to weigh a certain amount to be eligible for a specific weight class. There is also free substitution in most other sports. Most people learn by doing. You need practice time and time on the mat to get better. If you hold a kid that isn't ready for varsity competition and will get pinned in 0:20 seconds out of the varsity match because he can get 1 or 2 jv matches that may last 4-6 minutes each, think of the additional mat time this kid gets, rather than being on "varsity" in a spot that they have possibly only "earned" because they ate a lighter lunch and weigh less than their brother that day.
I didn't suggest they weren't qualified, I suggested that Fish suggested that maybe they weren't qualified.
So I suggest that if you have a suggestion about whether I made a suggestion or was suggesting that someone else made a suggestion you should read it a little closer. ;/
I want to go on the record here as stating that I was in no way suggesting that the two freshmen outfielders weren't qualified. As I previously stated, they made their contributions to the team. They made plays, but benefited from the backup that a more experienced player was able to provide, when it was needed. As the season wore on, that support was needed less and less, due to their growth in the position. Of course, they could hit the ball, too. This story was shared for the purpose of illustrating the ability of team members to assist each other in some sports, but in ways that wrestlers can't. Team sports require the filling of each position, without the option of "forfeiting" that component of the competition. This puts them in the position of having to play the best (and sometimes only) candidate available for each position. At times, this puts the coach in the unenviable position of having to put a player on varsity prematurely, so that the team is able to participate. Wrestling is unique in that it gives coaches the latitude to avoid that situation, by forfeiting a weight class, without disqualifying the rest of the team from competition. Apparently, the coach of your local team has made the determination that it is in the best interests of some wrestlers to postpone their varsity experience. Evidently, you take issue with that and have come on here to gain assurance that you are right about this and the coach is wrong. I say this because you ask for our opinions, but then seem to argue toward a particular viewpoint, perhaps unconsciously. The fact remains that it is the coach's responsibility to make the decision in question and no amount of discussion on here is going to change that. Sorry if my tone sounds a bit harsh, but that's the reality of the situation. In the best interest of the team and its members, I suggest that you put your full support behind the coach, because he obviously is taking his responsibility to these kids seriously... and that should be the top priority.
Believe me Fish, I don't need your assurance or anyone else's to make up my mind what I feel is right or wrong. It seems like you are asking for the assurance that your opinion is right by having Chuck validate your point.
Maybe comparing to other sports is completely different but I don't think so. I think you think that because your still stuck in the mind set that Wrestling is an individual sport. And please don't lecture me on how wrestling is unique.
Excuse me if I don't go through life blindly following our leadership, I don't think this coach is right so I'm not going to blindly follow and agree. Sure there is nothing I can do about it and the forum sometimes is a good place just to vent.
Wrestling has taught me that you need a team to succeed but you are also an individual and should lead your life having your own thoughts and ideas not just following someone else's just because they may be the one in charge.
That's why our country is in the shape it is now.
I absolutely respect your opinions and have looked forward to reading them, I just don't agree this time.
Of course I am aware of wrestling's team and individual dimensions, which are integral to its unique nature. With 20+ years of coaching experience and 54 years of discussing the sport with a coach/father and 3 brothers whom have coached, my take is bound to be different than yours. Sorry if my opinion came across as a lecture, but you did ask me to share it with you. I tend to call it as I see it, but I sometimes can be pretty blunt about things. The reason I advocate supporting the coach's decision is not that I expect you to blindly follow leadership. Of course you are entitled to your own perspectives, but sometimes when we really have no power to change a situation, it is easy to overlook how our actions might affect others. As a parent and coach, I sometimes disagreed with decisions made by other coaches, especially when they were coaching my kids. However, I was careful to never convey that displeasure or even share it publicly in any way, because I did not want it to cause my kids and their teammates to question the coaches' leadership and/or become a distraction. Whether or not you have a child on the team, I just ask you to consider that potential effect, in the future. I certainly reciprocate your respect and appreciate your discussion on here. Best of luck to your school's team, going forward!
I think it is very fair for a parent to openly communicate with a coach. If your desire is to not have a child wrestle up, that should be a choice you are part of. The reverse, gotta side with the coach.
Team in question loses the championship by 24 points. Forfeited 5 weight classes on purpose.
Again I'm not sure if you are saying we should force coaches to make kids wrestle or not? I think Wisconsin should try to push the team aspect of wrestling MORE. So if a team only had say 10 weight classes filled do the forfeit the entire match? I think kids should wrestle more too but that should be the coach and kids' decision. I like the conversation and there are some good points here.
Chuck
I don't think that coaches should be forced to make kids wrestle but maybe they shouldn't force kids not to wrestle.
Quote from: guillotine on February 09, 2014, 02:46:55 AM
Team in question loses the championship by 24 points. Forfeited 5 weight classes on purpose.
Do we know if filling those weight classes with kids the coach deems unready would have resulted in an additional 25 points and assured a victory, though?
Quote from: imnofish on February 09, 2014, 01:31:34 PM
Quote from: guillotine on February 09, 2014, 02:46:55 AM
Team in question loses the championship by 24 points. Forfeited 5 weight classes on purpose.
Do we know if filling those weight classes with kids the coach deems unready would have resulted in an additional 25 points and assured a victory, though?
Yes
I can see having confidence that it could have made that big a difference, based on past match ups, etc., but in reality it is impossible to actually know that success would occur. Even with our best kids, nothing is guaranteed. I can understand why you would want the team to have that chance, though. Best of luck to your kids, going forward!
Quote from: imnofish on February 09, 2014, 05:22:28 PM
I can see having confidence that it could have made that big a difference, based on past match ups, etc., but in reality it is impossible to actually know that success would occur. Even with our best kids, nothing is guaranteed. I can understand why you would want the team to have that chance, though. Best of luck to your kids, going forward!
Just by weighing in and taking last place those 5 weight classes would have earned 36 team points,they lost by 24. Not impossible at all to figure that out.
Just weighing in 3 of those kids and winning one match against kids with records consisting of 6-16, 7-23,5-16, 4-13, 2-6, 3-13, 8-11, 8-12 would have been plenty to win the tournament.
Just seems odd to tell wrestlers they aren't good enough to compete with these great VARSITY wrestlers with those stellar records.
You can spin it any way you want but not allowing those wrestlers to participate when they wanted to very badly and are more than capable to compete and place somewhere in the middle of their respective weight classes, took the conference championship away from those kids.
No its not the end of the world, but they all put their time in and had one of their goals taken away from them for no real reason whatsoever.
Next up Regionals, watch for the same thing to happen.
Quote from: Alumni on February 09, 2014, 06:37:24 PM
Quote from: imnofish on February 09, 2014, 05:22:28 PM
I can see having confidence that it could have made that big a difference, based on past match ups, etc., but in reality it is impossible to actually know that success would occur. Even with our best kids, nothing is guaranteed. I can understand why you would want the team to have that chance, though. Best of luck to your kids, going forward!
Just by weighing in and taking last place those 5 weight classes would have earned 36 team points,they lost by 24. Not impossible at all to figure that out.
Just weighing in 3 of those kids and winning one match against kids with records consisting of 6-16, 7-23,5-16, 4-13, 2-6, 3-13, 8-11, 8-12 would have been plenty to win the tournament.
Just seems odd to tell wrestlers they aren't good enough to compete with these great VARSITY wrestlers with those stellar records.
You can spin it any way you want but not allowing those wrestlers to participate when they wanted to very badly and are more than capable to compete and place somewhere in the middle of their respective weight classes, took the conference championship away from those kids.
No its not the end of the world, but they all put their time in and had one of their goals taken away from them for no real reason whatsoever.
Next up Regionals, watch for the same thing to happen.
Wasn't aware of your conference tournament format or scoring, but it makes sense the way you describe it. Good luck to your kids at Regionals.