Barry Davis and the history of the UW wrestling program

[OneEyedFatMan]

fwiw...Barry IS coaching against his peers and mentors, who have the same formula for success.

Duane didn't have any of the Gable tree to coach against except Gable, Russ only had J Rob up at Minnesota a couple of years to fight with and Gable of course..
Andy had J Rob, Gable, Tim Cysewski ( NW) and Mark Johnson ( at Illinois). I might have my years slightly off.

Barry has had to coach against Gable, Brands, Zalesky, J Rob, Mark Johnson, Tom Ryan, Duane Goldman, Jim Heffernan, Tim Cysewski, at any given time.
Now granted, Gable, Zalesky, Johnson are all gone from the Big Ten coaching ranks, but he still has a lot of knowledge/coaching power to fight against, not to mention Cael Sanderson ( and McFarland, Manning, Minkel, as also rans).

J Rob and Sanderson have done the best for their kids along with Iowa- ok, granted. Seeing a power change with tOSU?

So if everybody has 9.9 schollies to work with, and everyone's teaching the same thing, you're going to see a lot of parity.

just sayin'. 

I think our kids are great. Win or lose, they are busting their humps.  We're lucky to have the Ohio and NJ and Colorado pipelines rolling. We'll find more gold out there.

To be reasonable, Russ padded his team's W-L % with some bunnies.


1982-83    7-7-0    .500    6-3-0    .667    6th    0    1    Russ Hellickson
1983-84    22-6-0    .786    8-1-0    .889    4th    0    5    Russ Hellickson
1984-85    21-4-0    .840    6-1-0    .857    2nd    1    2    Russ Hellickson
1985-86    20-5-1    .788    7-1-0    .875    2nd    1    1    Russ Hellickson


http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/wis/sports/m-wrestl/auto_pdf/Wrestling_Record_Book.pdf

All very good points Jag.

padded schedule?

OK, forget duals

in RH's 4 years he had 3 top 4 finished in the B1G

Rein followed that with 4 top 4's in his 7 years, that is 7 top 4's in that 11 year stretch

if Barry followed that success that would give us 14 top 4's in the last 22 years instead BD has 4 top 4's in 22 years... so in twice as many years he has about half the top 4 finishes in the B1G as the previous coaches.

Iowa has been at the top forever... problem is the other programs have passed us and continue to stay ahead of us.

[lizard king]

"I could name 20 Wisconsin wrestlers in the last 5 years that had D1 talent and never stepped on a D1 team for whatever reason."

I'm not so sure you can say they had D1 talent if they never stepped into a D1 room.  There really is a lot more to this then just wrestling ability.  It is just too easy to say they could have, or would have.  If they didn't then they didn't and can't, or at least anymore.  There are a lot of good HS kids walking around saying they could have....

[billymurphy]

The addition of Penn State to the Big Ten makes it more difficult to place top 4.
I think you can count on Ohio State, Iowa, and Penn State being locked into the
top 3 positions next year.   It would be a great accomplishment to take fourth.
We would need Taylor, Jordan and Medbery(champ) to be in the finals and
maybe RR in the finals too(at least 3rd) and that would be good enough for the team to take 4th place.
If the Wisconsin guys wrestle better I think it can happen. 
I think with the talent in the room this is not too much to ask/expect.

[jaguarwrestler]

"I could name 20 Wisconsin wrestlers in the last 5 years that had D1 talent and never stepped on a D1 team for whatever reason."

I'm not so sure you can say they had D1 talent if they never stepped into a D1 room.  There really is a lot more to this then just wrestling ability.  It is just too easy to say they could have, or would have.  If they didn't then they didn't and can't, or at least anymore.  There are a lot of good HS kids walking around saying they could have....

coming out of school, guys like Peterson, Dunlap, Benitz, Jude, Gruettner... just to name a few could have all been going D1 somewhere... that is just 1 class and a small example. All didn't make it or did something else instead for whatever reason.

[yaknowwhatimean?]

Having watched the MN/WI classic pretty much every year they had it, it is obvious that WI talent level is not up to par with MN.  With that being said, sometimes you need to recruit outside your home state to be successful.  Not rocket science.  You can't rely on in state talent when that talent is not that good.  Obviously, there are exceptions, but the depth is not there.  MN rarely loses there best in state wrestlers and as a result they have been pretty successful.  They have lost a few, but not many.  With the exception of Demaray and Sharratt, I don't think MN has let too many future National Champions escape there grips.  The right coach can make a difference, and I'm not sure BD is that guy.  Same goes for Jrob.  Might be time for a change of scenery at both schools.  

[bigoil]

They did lose the nations #1 recruit in McCauley to UW.

[imnofish]

Just because someone did not wrestle DI doesn't mean that they lacked that potential.  Some turn down offers to wrestle at DI, for a wide variety of reasons, just like athletes in other sports do.  I turned down a DI offer, because I already had another scholarship, a fulltime job, and a family to support.  My nephew turned down a chance to play DI football, because the best program for his college major was at a DIII school.  One of my past students walked away from a DI football scholarship after one year, because his father had cancer and he was needed at home.  The list could go on an on...

[yaknowwhatimean?]

I figured McCauley's name would come up.  In retrospect, not a big loss. .  Losing Hall, on the other hand, would be a big blow.  Lets not forget King Cole to the list of WI wrestlers MN has pilfered.  Probably the best one .

[wrestlemania]

I don't believe they where taking 6-10 wrestlers per weight in the B1G to the NCAA's 40 years ago, probably more like 2-4, they have 1 more round in the NCAA now but twice as many AA chances, then your top 4, wonder how many Barry has had in the top 4 versus 5th-8th

It doesn't matter. You still have to win the matches to get to the podium. You could have 10 guys qualified for the NCAA meet and if they all lose twice in the first two rounds, guess what? They ain't 10 All-Americans that's for Dang sure.

I'm agree with you UW has fallen behind several Big Ten schools but as I said I think that has more to do with resources the school puts into its program and the in-state talent simply not producing any champions, NCAA or even Big Ten for the that matter. The fact you cannot deny is Andy Rein is the last Wisconsin wrestler to win a title for UW. In 1980. That's a long time ago. Why is it UW can have champions with under the same Barry Davis tent from out of state and not in state?

Oh by the way, the NCAA called and said that Andy Rein was a cheater and certainly Barry Davis paid for it for the first 5-7 season of his career. Not to make excuses for BD but here's the thing: if Rein, who always claimed he wasn't doing anything different than other coaches had done at UW before him did, was successful, and his success predicated on breaking the rules, wouldn't you be the least bit suspicious such rule-breaking was going on before him?

"I could name 20 Wisconsin wrestlers in the last 5 years that had D1 talent and never stepped on a D1 team for whatever reason."

Wonderful! And I can make farting sounds with both my hands. It doesn't mean a Dang thing. If they're not on the mat wrestling it means they're not on the mat wrestling, which really means they're no loss to anybody or anything. What's UW supposed to do with 20 D-I kids who won't wrestle D-I, force them at gunpoint? Sheesh! It means nothing.

Like I said, UW will move into the top tier of the Big Ten when those in-state kids produce National champions and when fans invest in the program instead of sniping at it from behind computer screens. Even if you don't like BD, the wrestlers deserve and demand your support if you claim to be UW wrestling fans.

[jaguarwrestler]

I don't believe they where taking 6-10 wrestlers per weight in the B1G to the NCAA's 40 years ago, probably more like 2-4, they have 1 more round in the NCAA now but twice as many AA chances, then your top 4, wonder how many Barry has had in the top 4 versus 5th-8th

It doesn't matter. You still have to win the matches to get to the podium. You could have 10 guys qualified for the NCAA meet and if they all lose twice in the first two rounds, guess what? They ain't 10 All-Americans that's for Dang sure.

I'm agree with you UW has fallen behind several Big Ten schools but as I said I think that has more to do with resources the school puts into its program and the in-state talent simply not producing any champions, NCAA or even Big Ten for the that matter. The fact you cannot deny is Andy Rein is the last Wisconsin wrestler to win a title for UW. In 1980. That's a long time ago. Why is it UW can have champions with under the same Barry Davis tent from out of state and not in state?

Oh by the way, the NCAA called and said that Andy Rein was a cheater and certainly Barry Davis paid for it for the first 5-7 season of his career. Not to make excuses for BD but here's the thing: if Rein, who always claimed he wasn't doing anything different than other coaches had done at UW before him did, was successful, and his success predicated on breaking the rules, wouldn't you be the least bit suspicious such rule-breaking was going on before him?

"I could name 20 Wisconsin wrestlers in the last 5 years that had D1 talent and never stepped on a D1 team for whatever reason."

Wonderful! And I can make farting sounds with both my hands. It doesn't mean a Dang thing. If they're not on the mat wrestling it means they're not on the mat wrestling, which really means they're no loss to anybody or anything. What's UW supposed to do with 20 D-I kids who won't wrestle D-I, force them at gunpoint? Sheesh! It means nothing.

Like I said, UW will move into the top tier of the Big Ten when those in-state kids produce National champions and when fans invest in the program instead of sniping at it from behind computer screens. Even if you don't like BD, the wrestlers deserve and demand your support if you claim to be UW wrestling fans.

If your team can qualify twice as many because twice as many spots available and they AA twice as many does that not make it easier to get an AA? Your odds seem to go way up in my book, if we can't agree on something that simple then I have no reason to touch on your other points except the last one... I fully support every wrestler on the team.

[dman]

I don't believe they where taking 6-10 wrestlers per weight in the B1G to the NCAA's 40 years ago, probably more like 2-4, they have 1 more round in the NCAA now but twice as many AA chances, then your top 4, wonder how many Barry has had in the top 4 versus 5th-8th

It doesn't matter. You still have to win the matches to get to the podium. You could have 10 guys qualified for the NCAA meet and if they all lose twice in the first two rounds, guess what? They ain't 10 All-Americans that's for Dang sure.

I'm agree with you UW has fallen behind several Big Ten schools but as I said I think that has more to do with resources the school puts into its program and the in-state talent simply not producing any champions, NCAA or even Big Ten for the that matter. The fact you cannot deny is Andy Rein is the last Wisconsin wrestler to win a title for UW. In 1980. That's a long time ago. Why is it UW can have champions with under the same Barry Davis tent from out of state and not in state?

Oh by the way, the NCAA called and said that Andy Rein was a cheater and certainly Barry Davis paid for it for the first 5-7 season of his career. Not to make excuses for BD but here's the thing: if Rein, who always claimed he wasn't doing anything different than other coaches had done at UW before him did, was successful, and his success predicated on breaking the rules, wouldn't you be the least bit suspicious such rule-breaking was going on before him?

"I could name 20 Wisconsin wrestlers in the last 5 years that had D1 talent and never stepped on a D1 team for whatever reason."

Wonderful! And I can make farting sounds with both my hands. It doesn't mean a Dang thing. If they're not on the mat wrestling it means they're not on the mat wrestling, which really means they're no loss to anybody or anything. What's UW supposed to do with 20 D-I kids who won't wrestle D-I, force them at gunpoint? Sheesh! It means nothing.

Like I said, UW will move into the top tier of the Big Ten when those in-state kids produce National champions and when fans invest in the program instead of sniping at it from behind computer screens. Even if you don't like BD, the wrestlers deserve and demand your support if you claim to be UW wrestling fans.

Thanks for telling everyone how to be a fan.   

[lizard king]

I think we are talking about two different things "when talking about could have beens"  I am saying if you didn't you were not a D1 athlete.  Maybe you had the talent, maybe?  We will never really know for sure.  But talent is more than just wrestling ability.  It is being able to wrestle while going to a good school, being able to wrestle while studying on the road, being able to wrestle with out getting in trouble and/or partying, being able to wrestle while being away from home and completely changing your life.........  I agree that there are a lot of guys that seemed like they could have been good, but that means nothing, the guys on the team now are doing it, bottom line.

[Ivan Stankowski]

I don't believe they where taking 6-10 wrestlers per weight in the B1G to the NCAA's 40 years ago, probably more like 2-4, they have 1 more round in the NCAA now but twice as many AA chances, then your top 4, wonder how many Barry has had in the top 4 versus 5th-8th

It doesn't matter. You still have to win the matches to get to the podium. You could have 10 guys qualified for the NCAA meet and if they all lose twice in the first two rounds, guess what? They ain't 10 All-Americans that's for Dang sure.

I'm agree with you UW has fallen behind several Big Ten schools but as I said I think that has more to do with resources the school puts into its program and the in-state talent simply not producing any champions, NCAA or even Big Ten for the that matter. The fact you cannot deny is Andy Rein is the last Wisconsin wrestler to win a title for UW. In 1980. That's a long time ago. Why is it UW can have champions with under the same Barry Davis tent from out of state and not in state?

Oh by the way, the NCAA called and said that Andy Rein was a cheater and certainly Barry Davis paid for it for the first 5-7 season of his career. Not to make excuses for BD but here's the thing: if Rein, who always claimed he wasn't doing anything different than other coaches had done at UW before him did, was successful, and his success predicated on breaking the rules, wouldn't you be the least bit suspicious such rule-breaking was going on before him?

"I could name 20 Wisconsin wrestlers in the last 5 years that had D1 talent and never stepped on a D1 team for whatever reason."

Wonderful! And I can make farting sounds with both my hands. It doesn't mean a Dang thing. If they're not on the mat wrestling it means they're not on the mat wrestling, which really means they're no loss to anybody or anything. What's UW supposed to do with 20 D-I kids who won't wrestle D-I, force them at gunpoint? Sheesh! It means nothing.

Like I said, UW will move into the top tier of the Big Ten when those in-state kids produce National champions and when fans invest in the program instead of sniping at it from behind computer screens. Even if you don't like BD, the wrestlers deserve and demand your support if you claim to be UW wrestling fans.

I for one would like to see the list of the 20 names that you are talking about

[bigG]

I don't believe they where taking 6-10 wrestlers per weight in the B1G to the NCAA's 40 years ago, probably more like 2-4, they have 1 more round in the NCAA now but twice as many AA chances, then your top 4, wonder how many Barry has had in the top 4 versus 5th-8th

It doesn't matter. You still have to win the matches to get to the podium. You could have 10 guys qualified for the NCAA meet and if they all lose twice in the first two rounds, guess what? They ain't 10 All-Americans that's for Dang sure.

I'm agree with you UW has fallen behind several Big Ten schools but as I said I think that has more to do with resources the school puts into its program and the in-state talent simply not producing any champions, NCAA or even Big Ten for the that matter. The fact you cannot deny is Andy Rein is the last Wisconsin wrestler to win a title for UW. In 1980. That's a long time ago. Why is it UW can have champions with under the same Barry Davis tent from out of state and not in state?

Oh by the way, the NCAA called and said that Andy Rein was a cheater and certainly Barry Davis paid for it for the first 5-7 season of his career. Not to make excuses for BD but here's the thing: if Rein, who always claimed he wasn't doing anything different than other coaches had done at UW before him did, was successful, and his success predicated on breaking the rules, wouldn't you be the least bit suspicious such rule-breaking was going on before him?

"I could name 20 Wisconsin wrestlers in the last 5 years that had D1 talent and never stepped on a D1 team for whatever reason."

Wonderful! And I can make farting sounds with both my hands. It doesn't mean a Dang thing. If they're not on the mat wrestling it means they're not on the mat wrestling, which really means they're no loss to anybody or anything. What's UW supposed to do with 20 D-I kids who won't wrestle D-I, force them at gunpoint? Sheesh! It means nothing.

Like I said, UW will move into the top tier of the Big Ten when those in-state kids produce National champions and when fans invest in the program instead of sniping at it from behind computer screens. Even if you don't like BD, the wrestlers deserve and demand your support if you claim to be UW wrestling fans.

I for one would like to see the list of the 20 names that you are talking about

And their HS cumulative GPA/ACT scores and class rank.

[OneEyedFatMan]

From what I understand, Rein let some kids from Japan work out at UW during the summer for a day or a week or whatever, whom had come here with Ichiguchi, who had volunteered here for two years form 79-81. It wasn't a recruiting trip, but Joel Maturi made it his issue with Rein, and used it as fodder to run Andy out.

The UW Athletic Dept. did Rein-o wrong prior to that....Andy had raised~ $400K for a new wrestling room, WITHOUT concrete columns, to be located in the basement of the McClain Center. So what happened?  SOMEBODY  decided they didn't want the wrestlers in the same building as football....so they pushed the wrestlers into the old hockey locker room--next door to the old wrestling locker room. So yes, they got a "new" locker and wrestling area, so to speak, but again complete with concrete pillars.

I think they did it again in the 2000s, where they are today. Its like trying to compete in a sumo ring ( have to watch yourself because hitting a pillar could be a bone-breaker)