Barry Davis and the history of the UW wrestling program

[OneEyedFatMan]

You have to be fair about records.....

Back in the day, the easier part of the schedule was February. January was the killer ( Iowa, Iowa State, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Lehigh) while the easier part back then were Illinois, Michigans, Purdue, Indiana and NW.   So you could make the team as the starter and hit many of the top ranked kids in January, lose your spot because the coach is frustrated (or you lose a wrestle-off because you are down in the dumps and wrestle stupid or be exhausted from cutting weight OR the other guy is just plain loaded for bear), then watch the second guy cruise into Feb and the Big Tens.

It happened to me where I was the second and first banana so I got to experience BOTH sides of the equation. So, I wouldn't compare the records that closely, until you ascertain the level of opposition. Which I have not taken the time to do in this instance.

To be fair, I should have mentioned Lubeck at 149 at times this season.

But what was the combined record of these three in-state wrestlers (Thielke-Lubeck-Donar)? 24-35. Ruschell was 15-8 in the general weight area. Don't talk to me about coaching.

[OneEyedFatMan]

Its fair to say, about the history of UW-Madison's program, is that interest nation-wide in it really picked up when MSU wasn't all that interested in Lee Kemp and Kleven was. After Kemp beat Gable at the Northern Open in 1976, every blue chipper in the country took a recruiting trip to Madison.  Pretty cool to get picked up at the airport by Lee, and I was no blue chipper.

These are the out of state boys who came here in great part due to Kemp's presence:

1. Jim Hanson- 3 timer from Ohio
2. Tom Husted- National Jr Champ from NJ
3. Mark Zimmer- Ohio's first 4 timer
4. Jim Jordan-  Ohio 4X
5. Jeff Jordan   "
6. Pat Pickford- National Jr Champ from IOWA
7. Rudy Isom- National Jr Champ from NY
8. Louie Chiaparrelli- National Jr Champ from MD
9. John Iannuzzi- National Jr Champ from NY
10. John Giura- World Cup champ and eventual World Teamer from IL

EVERY Wisconsin boy back in those days looked at the program with reverence, whether they came to UW-Madison or not. A great deal of that had to do with Lee Kemp's presence ( though home-grown studs like Jimmy Haines, Jack Reinwand, Pat Christenson, Ron Jeidy and Andy Rein had something to do with it as well).

Now then, 23 year old Lee Kemps are hard to find, these days.  Tom Ryan has shown us that you don't HAVE to have one of those fellas in the room to draw first class talent, although Rosselli is an Olympian and JJaggers is a 2 timer. But they need to be sold on their practice partners- and because coaches get old and creaky, they should be sold on the partners/competition in the room.

I'm pretty convinced that you have to:
1. qualify the talent in grades/ability
2. sell them on the right course of study for them
3. see if their goals fit the teams
4. once they are on the team- you cannot EVER give up on them personally

Just my take.
Call me Captain Obvious

[npope]

The FatMan is dead on in his assessment as to what was going on in the 1970s and early '80s with the UW program and Kemp's role in the situation. It was a pretty incredible environment, albeit in a more simple world with respect to collegiate wrestling.

[wrestlemania]

"There are lots of qualified candidates who would take a Big Ten Head Wrestling Head Coaching position."

Not if they knew it was a job that would end their careers, or a job that would allow them to only use a knife at a gun fight.

[sudden_victory]

I just want clarification. The next time we lose a dual meet and four of our wrestlers are pinned, am I allowed to say I wish the coach would retire?

[OneEyedFatMan]

Thanks Nat.

One last thing....Russ Hellickson's push for Olympic style wrestling opportunities at UW was also huge, and Kleven was very supportive
of the freestyle/greco tournaments.

We went to the Great Plains freestyle tournament as a team  (Lincoln, NE) every October. You could wrestle World Teamers there, even if you weren't a starter- now who gets chances like that?  We hosted the Northern Open- a great November tournament, where all the Hawks and Cyclones showed up, among others. We went as a whole team to UNI Open in December, and the top two guys in each weight went to the Midlands for the most part.

Kleven mandated that we hit tournaments all spring- even if they were "merely" state open greco and freestyle. One year I begged off but he made me run the inaugural Crazy Legs instead ( hung-over).

We had a guest coach- Masamitsu Ichiguchi- who was World and Olympic Greco Champ in 63-64. Ichi was phenomenal and great to work with. He had his friend Horiuchi- World Bronze- stay and work out with us too. Incredible position work with offense to boot. Sneaky stuff!

Those were the good old days, but I see today's team as a very skilled bunch too. I think technically, for the most part, they are rock solid. Would like to see more skill with the upper body though, personally. Would serve as a "fear-factor" for opponents.

The FatMan is dead on in his assessment as to what was going on in the 1970s and early '80s with the UW program and Kemp's role in the situation. It was a pretty incredible environment, albeit in a more simple world with respect to collegiate wrestling.

[wrestler_73]

Your view on the future for the current coach is probably accurate.  I guess that you are directly tied to the program.   It is sad to hear the same excuses just in a different way.   If Bo Ryan can build a team with mainly Midwest/Wisconsin kids it can be done in wrestling. It won't happen with Barry and we use this forum to express our frustration.   I am confident that someone would build the program and Wisconsin wrestling.

[Recon]

In this article, the author basically says that Bo Ryan has built the types of players he wants to recruit through decades of camps in Wisconsin. I don't know if that translates for wrestling, but it has worked well for Ryan and the Badgers.  Wisconsin was not much of a basketball state years ago and now quite a few of their key players are Wisconsin kids. And they have one of the best teams in the country. Again, I'm not saying basketball camps translate with training or recruiting wrestlers. But Bo Ryan has a philosophy that he worked hard to instill in a lot of folks over many many years and he is certainly reaping the benefits and success now.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/02/16/sports/ncaabasketball/bo-ryan-is-weaned-to-win-in-wisconsin.html?referrer=

[wrestle84]

I think the failure to lure Ben Askren to UW was a huge turning point for the program. The Fat man was spot on in regard to Lee Kemp. He was a larger than life hero to those of us in youth wrestling in the late 70's. Ben Askren could have been that figure if he had the same success at UW. I was never a huge Askren fan, but over the years, his obvious love for the sport has gained my respect. He also had a huge impact on the style of future college wrestling with his ability to scramble. I would love to see what Ben could do as the HC at UW.

[dad 2 5]

In this article, the author basically says that Bo Ryan has built the types of players he wants to recruit through decades of camps in Wisconsin. I don't know if that translates for wrestling, but it has worked well for Ryan and the Badgers.  Wisconsin was not much of a basketball state years ago and now quite a few of their key players are Wisconsin kids. And they have one of the best teams in the country. Again, I'm not saying basketball camps translate with training or recruiting wrestlers. But Bo Ryan has a philosophy that he worked hard to instill in a lot of folks over many many years and he is certainly reaping the benefits and success now.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/02/16/sports/ncaabasketball/bo-ryan-is-weaned-to-win-in-wisconsin.html?referrer=

Good insight. Interesting that Bo got it figured out but Anderson could not and Kelsey can't. Then look at CC; T&F; rowing; softball; volleyball all have it figured out too. I like BD as a person and a coach but I would like to see more success especially at the end of the season. I wonder what the different ACT levels are for different sports but I don't think that is the only factor. I want to see what Mitch will have for an impact after this summer and having the USA Teams in again. Too me that could be a BIG corner turning in the right direction (Upward {TB Quote}).

[jaguarwrestler]

Thanks everyone for your responses and compliments.

To answer Jaguar, I didn't skewer anything. It may well be there are more opportunities to be an All-American and got to the NCAA Tournament in 2015 than in 1950, that's true. But it's also true that you have to take advantage of those opportunities when presented. Nothing is guaranteed to you. UW has done as well as most to do so. The same with dual meet.s Maybe teams do wrestle more dual meets than ever before. You still have to win them. Bottom line is BD is the winningest coach in UW history by number of wins.

It's true that by winning percentage, the Kelven/Hellickson years were better. But second place is still just that, second place. Gable and Hawkeyes had a quite a run but ask yourself why the Badgers couldn't break it and I suspect depth may well have been a factor back then too. And still is to this day. It's hard to compete when you have fewer athletes compared to other teams nor can you afford injuries or recruiting mistakes. Fewer kids such mistakes have more impact.

As for the in-state out-state questions, lets look at the UW line-up this season. Of the 10 starting positions, eight of them were fill on average by out-of-state wrestlers. Only Thielke at 141 and Donar at 157 were from Wisconsin. So ask yourself why more in-state kids couldn't crack the line-up. If you say it comes down to coaching, then ask yourself why do the out-of-state wrestlers do better with same coaching? Hmmm? Why couldn't more of those in-state kids, outside of the redshirts, find their way into the starting line-up hmmm?  

By win %
Hellickson - 81%
Kleven - 77%
Rein - 64%
Davis - 58%

Barry has most wins because he has coached far more duals than any other coach not because he is somehow a better coach as he is 4th in win % he is also lowest on that list when you look at average Big Ten finish... those are the facts, not the facts the way you choose to present them. If time behind the wheel makes an argument for coach keeping his job I guess he should keep it... if success level while behind the wheel is the measurement then he is only our 4th best coach of our last 4 coaches. You can look at AA's if you wish, I don't believe they where taking 6-10 wrestlers per weight in the B1G to the NCAA's 40 years ago, probably more like 2-4, they have 1 more round in the NCAA now but twice as many AA chances, then your top 4, wonder how many Barry has had in the top 4 versus 5th-8th

The only in-state blue chip recruit we have is JT, the others where good but not great coming out of HS, many of our best go elsewhere or don't wrestle D1 or wrestle at all. I could name 20 Wisconsin wrestlers in the last 5 years that had D1 talent and never stepped on a D1 team for whatever reason. TJR didn't go 15-8 on varsity, that was with his open record. Donar is our reserve as far as I know our start was hurt and wrestled 3 matches all season.

I guess a 7th place average in a conference that had 11 teams until 2 years is good for you?

[leg turk]

All very good points Jag.

[OneEyedFatMan]

To be reasonable, Russ padded his team's W-L % with some bunnies.


1982-83    7-7-0    .500    6-3-0    .667    6th    0    1    Russ Hellickson
1983-84    22-6-0    .786    8-1-0    .889    4th    0    5    Russ Hellickson
1984-85    21-4-0    .840    6-1-0    .857    2nd    1    2    Russ Hellickson
1985-86    20-5-1    .788    7-1-0    .875    2nd    1    1    Russ Hellickson


http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/wis/sports/m-wrestl/auto_pdf/Wrestling_Record_Book.pdf

All very good points Jag.

[jaguarwrestler]

To be reasonable, Russ padded his team's W-L % with some bunnies.


1982-83    7-7-0    .500    6-3-0    .667    6th    0    1    Russ Hellickson
1983-84    22-6-0    .786    8-1-0    .889    4th    0    5    Russ Hellickson
1984-85    21-4-0    .840    6-1-0    .857    2nd    1    2    Russ Hellickson
1985-86    20-5-1    .788    7-1-0    .875    2nd    1    1    Russ Hellickson


http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/wis/sports/m-wrestl/auto_pdf/Wrestling_Record_Book.pdf

All very good points Jag.

padded schedule?

OK, forget duals

in RH's 4 years he had 3 top 4 finished in the B1G

Rein followed that with 4 top 4's in his 7 years, that is 7 top 4's in that 11 year stretch

if Barry followed that success that would give us 14 top 4's in the last 22 years instead BD has 4 top 4's in 22 years... so in twice as many years he has about half the top 4 finishes in the B1G as the previous coaches.

Iowa has been at the top forever... problem is the other programs have passed us and continue to stay ahead of us.

[bigG]

Well, with our wrestling room the way it is, how could we compete with those other schools?