Barry Davis and the history of the UW wrestling program

[wrestlemania]

I am a longtime reader but now a new member of the Wisconsin Wrestling Online forum community. My first post will on Barry Davis and University of Wisconsin wrestling program. I am offering this as a way to provide new perspective and viewpoint on the topic which I believe will better the quality of the discussion.

First of all I wish to be frank. Barry Davis isn't going anywhere. He will be the head coach so long as he wants to be the head coach or so long as Barry Alvarez is the athletic director. And given that BA's potential replacements as AD – Jamie Pollard and or Shawn Eichorst – have worked with Barry Davis in the past and know him well – I doubt if they will bring their own "guy" in.  We must remember, in case some have forgotten, that Barry Alvarez was an assistant coach at Iowa at the same time Davis won the Big Ten and NCAA titles and was an Olympic silver medalist. So to Alvarez, Davis is a hero. You think he's going to fire a hero?  Especially one wins more than he loses, produces All-Americans, has program filled with good students who don't make trouble in the community. So again, why do you think he would fire him?

If you say "Because he's never won a Big Ten or NCAA team title" I would respond:  "Well then he can join the club."  Because no other Wisconsin coach has done that either. The sainted George Martin, the "Father of Wisconsin Wrestling" who the state hall of fame is named after never won anything team-wise. The best Big Ten finish Martin ever had coaching from 1936-1970 was fourth.  He never coached an NCAA champion (UW's first NCAA champion didn't come until 1974). Well, Davis has coached had coach four such champions.  Martin had 17 Big Ten championships, Davis has coached 14. Martin coached  10 All-Americans, Davis has coached 44. Martin had an overall record of 182-163-12. Davis is 216-154-11. He is the winningest coach in the history of the UW program which goes all the way back to 1910. He too has finished second in the Big Ten and fourth in country, which is best-ever finish for UW in an NCAA meet. Maybe it should be the Barry Davis Hall of Fame? Hmm?

I know there are some who still have the Duane Kleven/Russ Hellickson Era on the brain when UW was clearly the second best program in the Big Ten behind the Kurdelmeier/Gable Iowa Hawkeyes and a national power (even though Kleven and Hellickson never finished higher than second in the Big Ten and fourth nationally, same as Barry). If you feel the program has slipped from those heights, I can understand such sentiment because it is true. Wisconsin has fallen back in the pack. They're clearly behind Penn State, Iowa, Minnesota and Ohio State. They never really took advantage shift in power in Big Ten wrestling with Gable's departure or they were position to but fell back. I do concur with this sentiment.

However, I would argue that Wisconsin gets out of wrestling what it puts into it. And what it puts into it right now has the Badgers about right where they should be, a top 25 program wrestling in the toughest conference in the nation but stuck in the middle of that league.  A program which averages about a thousand fans a meet, which is well behind other Big Ten schools in terms of the number of kids in the room and probably doesn't have a lot of money to throw around isn't a big-time wrestling school and no amount of wishful  thinking otherwise changes this.  We are what we are and its time some fans start realizing this. You may say "Look at Ohio State." I would agree, the Buckeyes have risen quickly, largely because Tom Ryan figured out there's enough talent in the state of Ohio to take the Buckeyes to higher levels than they previously aspired to if they figured out how to recruit such talent and find support locally for the program.  You kind of figure that why Russ Hellickson left UW for OSU back in 1986 because he saw this too.
But besides resources the biggest factor working against UW in wrestling is the kids from out-of-state have become their most successful wrestlers. Recruiting out-of-state isn't easy and costs money. The UW program would be in so much better shape if natives Wisconsin wrestlers would step up and add to what's already a precarious situation when it comes to depth.  But here's the hard truth: a native Wisconsinite has not won an NCAA title for UW since Andy Rein back in 1980 while native state wrestlers have gone on to win state titles where they are named Lowney, Hartung, Deringer or Askren or others who have cracked Big Ten line-ups like Sufelhon, Kissel and Polizzi. That's not just a Barry Davis issue. It's something which has hurt the program for a long time (Craig Henning came the closest with a second place finish in 2004). Yes native in-state have made All-American for Wisconsin but to have that in-state champion would mean a lot for the program and its effect on the rest of the state when it comes to wrestling. Ideally, you could bring a couple of talented out- of-state wrestlers each fall and combined with the Wisconsin kids, dividing up the rest of the scholarship money, to make a pretty good team. But we can count on several hands how many in-state wrestlers have been UW bust-outs either by injury or because they couldn't handle college wrestling. I'm not going to name names but we all know who they are. Until this changes, UW will never crack the top half of the league consistently.

And that leads to the final problem, does the state itself produce good collegiate level wrestlers? Yes, but not a lot, not as much as people would like to believe. We see a lot of good high school wrestlers go to Madison from across the state, some do well but many others have not yet or did not step up in their careers. We wondered why and perhaps maybe they weren't that good to begin with, and thus our expectations were too high . When AWN says only Beau Breske is worthy of being ranked in their Top 100 across the country (and no teams either) and he finished second this season at state, what does that tell you? I don't know if it's different when it comes to Cadets or other non-season outlets because I don't follow that scene but when it comes to high schools it's pretty brutal. But then again,  when some wrestlers find themselves having to win just one match to get to sectionals, maybe we should temper our expectations.

At that's really the point. Some may argue a new coach could make a big difference in solving some of these problems. I would counter that good coaches don't grow on trees and they probably wouldn't consider coaching at UW. Why would they? Little resources, not a lot of in-state talent in comparison to other states, not a huge fan base, stuck in the middle in a hypercompetitive conference. Tell me who takes a job like that? Some assistant hot and heavy for his first head coaching gig finding himself in over his head? Some bust-out looking to collect a check? Someone looking for a promotion also finding himself  also in over-his-head? Barry may not be the best coach in the world but in the context of the history of the University of Wisconsin wrestling, he's done pretty well for himself considering he got the job by default and had spent first few seasons dealing with the damage from NCAA sanctions his predecessor left behind (which suggests cheating may well have been a requisite for past UW success in wrestling).  Ultimately a new coach is going have to figure out how to solve this problems but that's a ways off. Perhaps the best we can hope for is things will be improved to the point where the person taking over for Davis won't be handicapped by these problems Davis and other UW coaches have been. It ain't much but until people put their money where their mouth (or their keyboards) are, it's as good as it gets.

[Handles II]

I'm not getting in the argument of Coach Davis leaving the job or not.

However, you asked "Who would take that job?"

I believe there are a number of well qualified individuals who would take that job and perform at the current level or better. I believe there are quite a few experienced D3 and D2 coaches that could certainly handle it. Many that were excellent D1 wrestlers. I believe there are some excellent coaches at smaller D1 schools that also could do the job.

[Harris]

That was a great first post!  Well done.

[bigoil]

Well thought out first response. You could have included how the team was handicapped when BD took over from punishments due to the past coaching staff as well as the limits to the number of wrestlers in the room up until just recently.

[Jimmy]

Excellent first post very accurate. What is wisconsin wrestling? A great education, excellent mentorship, a knowledgeable coaching staff, superior team unity. Adequate physcilities . Moderate fan base. A producer of good young men. What is it not , a championship atmosphere , a place to go to be the best. Will this change with the current staff and the ? Imo no. Wrestlemania you are right on the money. Nothing is gonna change in the near future,

[Musky Hunter]

I am a longtime reader but now a new member of the Wisconsin Wrestling Online forum community. My first post will on Barry Davis and University of Wisconsin wrestling program. I am offering this as a way to provide new perspective and viewpoint on the topic which I believe will better the quality of the discussion.

First of all I wish to be frank. Barry Davis isn't going anywhere. He will be the head coach so long as he wants to be the head coach or so long as Barry Alvarez is the athletic director. And given that BA's potential replacements as AD – Jamie Pollard and or Shawn Eichorst – have worked with Barry Davis in the past and know him well – I doubt if they will bring their own "guy" in.  We must remember, in case some have forgotten, that Barry Alvarez was an assistant coach at Iowa at the same time Davis won the Big Ten and NCAA titles and was an Olympic silver medalist. So to Alvarez, Davis is a hero. You think he's going to fire a hero?  Especially one wins more than he loses, produces All-Americans, has program filled with good students who don't make trouble in the community. So again, why do you think he would fire him?

If you say "Because he's never won a Big Ten or NCAA team title" I would respond:  "Well then he can join the club."  Because no other Wisconsin coach has done that either. The sainted George Martin, the "Father of Wisconsin Wrestling" who the state hall of fame is named after never won anything team-wise. The best Big Ten finish Martin ever had coaching from 1936-1970 was fourth.  He never coached an NCAA champion (UW's first NCAA champion didn't come until 1974). Well, Davis has coached had coach four such champions.  Martin had 17 Big Ten championships, Davis has coached 14. Martin coached  10 All-Americans, Davis has coached 44. Martin had an overall record of 182-163-12. Davis is 216-154-11. He is the winningest coach in the history of the UW program which goes all the way back to 1910. He too has finished second in the Big Ten and fourth in country, which is best-ever finish for UW in an NCAA meet. Maybe it should be the Barry Davis Hall of Fame? Hmm?

I know there are some who still have the Duane Kleven/Russ Hellickson Era on the brain when UW was clearly the second best program in the Big Ten behind the Kurdelmeier/Gable Iowa Hawkeyes and a national power (even though Kleven and Hellickson never finished higher than second in the Big Ten and fourth nationally, same as Barry). If you feel the program has slipped from those heights, I can understand such sentiment because it is true. Wisconsin has fallen back in the pack. They're clearly behind Penn State, Iowa, Minnesota and Ohio State. They never really took advantage shift in power in Big Ten wrestling with Gable's departure or they were position to but fell back. I do concur with this sentiment.

However, I would argue that Wisconsin gets out of wrestling what it puts into it. And what it puts into it right now has the Badgers about right where they should be, a top 25 program wrestling in the toughest conference in the nation but stuck in the middle of that league.  A program which averages about a thousand fans a meet, which is well behind other Big Ten schools in terms of the number of kids in the room and probably doesn't have a lot of money to throw around isn't a big-time wrestling school and no amount of wishful  thinking otherwise changes this.  We are what we are and its time some fans start realizing this. You may say "Look at Ohio State." I would agree, the Buckeyes have risen quickly, largely because Tom Ryan figured out there's enough talent in the state of Ohio to take the Buckeyes to higher levels than they previously aspired to if they figured out how to recruit such talent and find support locally for the program.  You kind of figure that why Russ Hellickson left UW for OSU back in 1986 because he saw this too.
But besides resources the biggest factor working against UW in wrestling is the kids from out-of-state have become their most successful wrestlers. Recruiting out-of-state isn't easy and costs money. The UW program would be in so much better shape if natives Wisconsin wrestlers would step up and add to what's already a precarious situation when it comes to depth.  But here's the hard truth: a native Wisconsinite has not won an NCAA title for UW since Andy Rein back in 1980 while native state wrestlers have gone on to win state titles where they are named Lowney, Hartung, Deringer or Askren or others who have cracked Big Ten line-ups like Sufelhon, Kissel and Polizzi. That's not just a Barry Davis issue. It's something which has hurt the program for a long time (Craig Henning came the closest with a second place finish in 2004). Yes native in-state have made All-American for Wisconsin but to have that in-state champion would mean a lot for the program and its effect on the rest of the state when it comes to wrestling. Ideally, you could bring a couple of talented out- of-state wrestlers each fall and combined with the Wisconsin kids, dividing up the rest of the scholarship money, to make a pretty good team. But we can count on several hands how many in-state wrestlers have been UW bust-outs either by injury or because they couldn't handle college wrestling. I'm not going to name names but we all know who they are. Until this changes, UW will never crack the top half of the league consistently.

And that leads to the final problem, does the state itself produce good collegiate level wrestlers? Yes, but not a lot, not as much as people would like to believe. We see a lot of good high school wrestlers go to Madison from across the state, some do well but many others have not yet or did not step up in their careers. We wondered why and perhaps maybe they weren't that good to begin with, and thus our expectations were too high . When AWN says only Beau Breske is worthy of being ranked in their Top 100 across the country (and no teams either) and he finished second this season at state, what does that tell you? I don't know if it's different when it comes to Cadets or other non-season outlets because I don't follow that scene but when it comes to high schools it's pretty brutal. But then again,  when some wrestlers find themselves having to win just one match to get to sectionals, maybe we should temper our expectations.

At that's really the point. Some may argue a new coach could make a big difference in solving some of these problems. I would counter that good coaches don't grow on trees and they probably wouldn't consider coaching at UW. Why would they? Little resources, not a lot of in-state talent in comparison to other states, not a huge fan base, stuck in the middle in a hypercompetitive conference. Tell me who takes a job like that? Some assistant hot and heavy for his first head coaching gig finding himself in over his head? Some bust-out looking to collect a check? Someone looking for a promotion also finding himself  also in over-his-head? Barry may not be the best coach in the world but in the context of the history of the University of Wisconsin wrestling, he's done pretty well for himself considering he got the job by default and had spent first few seasons dealing with the damage from NCAA sanctions his predecessor left behind (which suggests cheating may well have been a requisite for past UW success in wrestling).  Ultimately a new coach is going have to figure out how to solve this problems but that's a ways off. Perhaps the best we can hope for is things will be improved to the point where the person taking over for Davis won't be handicapped by these problems Davis and other UW coaches have been. It ain't much but until people put their money where their mouth (or their keyboards) are, it's as good as it gets.

This exactly why I made the other post that blew up.  Great addition to this board and I hope you chime in more.  This is exactly how I felt about what was going on.  Great post. 

[Recon]

I can't believe the name wrestlemania was available until now 

[badgerjohn]

I can't believe the name wrestlemania was available until now 

My guess is its Barry Davis' alias.  It was the "Barry Davis Hall of Fame" comment that was the give away 

Nah, Barry Alvarez    just sticking up for one of his own.

[jaguarwrestler]

you touched on a lot of points

to say Barry finishing 2nd (once) is somehow equal to past teams is a bit much... from 1975 to 1987 we finished 2nd seven different times. In the other 6 years in the span we finished 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th and 6th... that is a 13 year average of 2.7 finish in the Big Ten... Barry's best 13 year stretch we where 5.9 in the Big... so not sure we should compare him to years past. Also to say he is the winningest coach... well he may have most dual wins but far from best win %, he has most dual wins because we wrestle twice the duals as we did 30-40 years ago.

I'm also really sick of the WI doesn't have D1 talent BS, I could name 15 guys that had the talent in the last 5 years that either didn't go to college, went for a different sport or wrestled at another state school but they are obviously not D1... Iowa has 3 D1 schools and half the population, think that helps?

[npope]

Ahhhh, statistics - gotta' love 'em. Like a prisoner, they will say anything you want to hear if you torture them long enough.

[jaguarwrestler]

Ahhhh, statistics - gotta' love 'em. Like a prisoner, they will say anything you want to hear if you torture them long enough.

on top of that... comparing them to 50 years ago... how many from the B1G went to NCAA's per weight in 1950... how many weights, how many wrestlers per bracket, did they always go back to 8th for AA's, was it always double elimination, was it always seeded, how many programs back then... all questions I have no idea about. Just did some digging, in 1950 they had 8 weights and 4 AA's per weight that is 32 now we have 80 over twice as many... yeah.. stats are great when you skew them.

[wrestlemania]

Thanks everyone for your responses and compliments.

To answer Jaguar, I didn't skewer anything. It may well be there are more opportunities to be an All-American and got to the NCAA Tournament in 2015 than in 1950, that's true. But it's also true that you have to take advantage of those opportunities when presented. Nothing is guaranteed to you. UW has done as well as most to do so. The same with dual meet.s Maybe teams do wrestle more dual meets than ever before. You still have to win them. Bottom line is BD is the winningest coach in UW history by number of wins.

It's true that by winning percentage, the Kelven/Hellickson years were better. But second place is still just that, second place. Gable and Hawkeyes had a quite a run but ask yourself why the Badgers couldn't break it and I suspect depth may well have been a factor back then too. And still is to this day. It's hard to compete when you have fewer athletes compared to other teams nor can you afford injuries or recruiting mistakes. Fewer kids such mistakes have more impact.

As for the in-state out-state questions, lets look at the UW line-up this season. Of the 10 starting positions, eight of them were fill on average by out-of-state wrestlers. Only Thielke at 141 and Donar at 157 were from Wisconsin. So ask yourself why more in-state kids couldn't crack the line-up. If you say it comes down to coaching, then ask yourself why do the out-of-state wrestlers do better with same coaching? Hmmm? Why couldn't more of those in-state kids, outside of the redshirts, find their way into the starting line-up hmmm?   

[wrestlemania]

To be fair, I should have mentioned Lubeck at 149 at times this season.

But what was the combined record of these three in-state wrestlers (Thielke-Lubeck-Donar)? 24-35. Ruschell was 15-8 in the general weight area. Don't talk to me about coaching.

[Harris]

WrestleMania is putting the SmackDown!  I love it!

[easytopin]

Who are you kidding? There are lots of qualified candidates who would take a Big Ten Head Wrestling Head Coaching position. But no one will know how many until the job is listed.  Nobody knew who Bo Ryan was until given a shot at Wisconsin, Tony Bennett has taken doormat Virginia into the top ten.  Wrestling does not receive the same recognition as basketball so their are fewer "Big Names". And Wrestlemania, I don't know why you think Wisconsin is a crappy job? Should the populace sit by and feel sorry for themselves and accept that Wisky is (8th place) as good as its going to get.

Nobody is on here besmerching the content of character of Coach Davis, but rather judging the end results.  But if you have 17 years to build something you should have something more to hang your hat on.  And lastly I hate the talk of "next year". My fb team here lost in the state semifinals and yes we return most of our team however that guarantees NOTHING! I am hopeful of course but so much can change over a year.