Just a question I have, not bashing wrestling schools I think they have mad individual wrestlers way better. But does anyone else see the gap is really growing between great wrestlers and bad wrestlers. Not many in between wrestlers left. Let me ask you this... how many of your high school state champions or even most place winners don't wrestle for a wrestling school. I think it is pretty hard to convince a freshman who has never wrestled to come out anymore because most freshman wrestlers have been wrestling 50 matches a year since kindergarten.
Whats your point?
With hard work comes reward.
Should the sport of wrestling be fashioned after those who do not want to work really hard at it?
I will go further to say my son really started wrestling in 8th grade few matches in 6th then was injured in 7th in football did not wrestle. But he put allot of hard work and effort in from 8th grade on allot off season commitment and work it paid off those who know who he is saw him grow every year and the reward was trip to State and on the podium several times at Greco State and FS. So the idea that a kid cannot compete unless they wrestle from Kindergarden on is not true, you get out of wrestling what you put into it. Thats requires like anything in life dedication-hard work-commiment-sacrifice and competition and emotional maturity. Sure workouts with top notch Coaches like Hall, Arneson, Crass to name a few certainly helps, but how you learn and work while with these teachers has a great impact on what you take away from it.
So to answer your question NO.
As I said before, the sport is trending towards better wrestlers with more coaching and year round training but ultimately leading to fewer wrestlers.
Going to be fewer and fewer coaches taking on freshman beginners and them becoming state qualifiers or conference champs.
It is similar to what club sports are doing with other HS sports. In Milwaukee area, the best athletes in some sports do not play High school sports anymore. You can't fault those individuals for trying to become the best they can but it hurts the sport overall (mainly soccer and volleyball from what I have heard). Same happens across the state in hockey. As long as they are having fun, can't fault anyone
Wrestlers that train year round are going to have an edge on the old-school 3 sport athlete
Quote from: DocWrestling on January 20, 2014, 03:35:41 PM
As I said before, the sport is trending towards better wrestlers with more coaching and year round training but ultimately leading to fewer wrestlers.
Going to be fewer and fewer coaches taking on freshman beginners and them becoming state qualifiers or conference champs.
It is similar to what club sports are doing with other HS sports. In Milwaukee area, the best athletes in some sports do not play High school sports anymore. You can't fault those individuals for trying to become the best they can but it hurts the sport overall (mainly soccer and volleyball from what I have heard). Same happens across the state in hockey. As long as they are having fun, can't fault anyone
Wrestlers that train year round are going to have an edge on the old-school 3 sport athlete
You know Doc life is full of choices.
I cannot fathom that it is ruining the sport if young man or women wants to make the same commitment then they will make it.
One would have to ask what is the Club Sport offering that the school isn't?
The level of competition is up? Is it?
School enrollment numbers are down....yes they are what impact does that have?
Maybe parents are putting more into other offerings and sports maybe its tough to commit to more than one so the choice is made. I can see some young adults choosing other sports rather than wrestling it is one tough sport to participate in and takes allot of work and commitment. Maybe as a society we are not as "tough"? (as we used to be) and its "easier" to play soccer or volleyball? Maybe its easier to play nothing to exercise the thumbs and fingers on video game?
I think there are many many many reasons the sport seems down but I have not seen numbers to see if they parallel the enrollment numbers either. Or if they are trending.
As far as experience level goes I don't think it is hurting teams. My son goes to Crass and there are nights where it ranges from 1st year kids to kids that have been doing it for since pre k and are in high school now.
It is a way for parents to get there kids more mat time for newer kids. And for older kids to get a bit more technical instruction. And the numbers of kids is not as high as say a youth or middle school practice.
I would say that high school teams participation is fully contingent on 2 things.
1) Coaches ability to relate to the kids
2) Coaches willingness to put effort forth in recruiting.
A great example of this I think is Brookfield Central HS. They have never been a wrestling power, do not have a strong kids program, but yet because they have a young energetic coach are getting big numbers. I believe they are around 50 kids this year, while they are not top 10 in the state or anything they have been making great progress and are a solid team.
As far as kids enjoyment levels I think their expectations need to be equivalent to the effort they put out.
For example if a kid wrestles 3 months a year and expects to be a state champ, that will not work out so well for him. At our academy we have kids who wrestle year round and have high expectation and are very satisfied. We also have kids who just come in for a month or two, now while their expectation levels are not as high they are still satisfied by what they get out of the sport.
Love to hear feedback.
I guess my son was the exception. We didn't start him wrestling until 3rd grade and then only wrestled at the local wrestling club tournament for several years.
All thru Jr high and high school he did not train at a club facility or even go to many camps.
He wrestled from Mid November to the state tournament if he qualified. No Free style or Greco.
He spent the off season in other sports or hunting and fishing.
He did qualify for state a couple times and was a state champ as a senior.
I guess I didn't push or encourage him to go to the area club facility more to prove that there is nothing at a club facility that you can't get in your own wrestling room.
No offense to the clubs, I think they are a great resource but not mandatory to become a champ.
Illinois is much like Doc explained for VBall and soccer, recruiters are at AAU/club tournaments more than HS games.
Going back to the orginal post and something in that post rung pretty true.
I believe there is becoming no middle ground with the wrestlers. You have the elite and you have the poor. The group in the middle and we will call them the multi-sport athletes. I believe that group is shrinking and I am sad about it.
Just a mind set, you have a good football player and he is also an average wrestler. I think you might lose that kid from wrestling to train more year around for football iec,,,,weightlifting and football camps.
Why may you ask you lose that kid from wrestling. While he might have had some success on the wrestling mat his heart is into football and after a year or 2 of being a .500 wrestler might bruise the ego and he wants to throw himself into football full time.
I also think the day of having a kid walk out onto the mat his/her freshmond year and being a state guy is going to be few and far between. Though I say this with no insult, I do believe that a kid that is bigger in weight might have more of an advantage than a lighter or middle weight guy. I think the upper weights have a bigger learning curve in high school than the light weights or even middle weights. though when it is all said and done with I believe all weights in high school are tough and those on the stand in Feb are very good no matter what weight they are at.
When I say that I also mean no insult because there is always a certain case for that. You hear of a few every year but I say just a few.
I also believe that getting kids out in middle school is a good thing. You take a good middle school athlete and with in due time they they catch up to kids that have been wrestling for years. That is if they put in 100%, work hard and learn.
I have no problem with clubs. If the kids need the extra training I am all for it. New partners, new coaches will not hurt anything.
I like Bens 2 things that coaches need to do.
I would also like to add, I know wrestling is a tough sport but in some of the madness I think you also need to bring out some of the fun side and let the kids be kids at times with in reason.
So to the original question; well it may not be the existence of wrestling schools or,clubs as I read the responses it may in fact be deeper rooted causes and reasons more to do with societal changes than any one thing.
Quote from: ramjet on January 20, 2014, 08:36:55 PM
So to the original question; well it may not be the existence of wrestling schools or,clubs as I read the responses it may in fact be deeper rooted causes and reasons more to do with societal changes than any one thing.
I agree with this statement.
I think the original question is based upon an observed polarization among the skill levels of athletic participants. As others have stated, specialization in a particular sport tends to minimize participation in others. The decreased number of participants results in a lack of depth in the overall competition, evidenced by the high numbers of forfeits and pins. How much better would our elite athletes be, if the average/above average competitor was more prevalent on today's teams? How much better would our least competitive wrestlers be? In some schools, I also see other sports, such as basketball and football suffering from a lack of depth/consistent skill performance, as rosters have dwindled. The bottom line is that the athletic experience has lost its balance. Where has it gone? How can we restore it? Must the pursuit of excellence be abandoned, in order to regain it?
I was glad to see someone as accomplished and dedicated as Ben recognizing that there are different levels of expectations and different ways to get enjoyment out of wrestling. While every kid dreams of winning a State title in any sport in which they participate, it is very possible to enjoy the sport of wrestling immensely without ever qualifying for State or winning the title. I sure did.
Winning a State title was a dream for me, but not really a goal. I hope that makes sense. I didn't wrestle until sophomore year of high school, and I never went to camps. I attended a few clinics, but we didn't make the time or the financial investments necessary to make State an attainable goal. I wrestled because it was fun, and because my presence there helped my team win a conference and a regional title. My realistic goal was to finish my high school career with a winning overall record. I made it happen by working my tail off from the day after football was done until I got beat out of the tournament series. The Monday after that I was either tossing a baseball or at a rehearsal for the school's spring musical. I was never an "all my eggs in one basket" kind of kid.
I don't know how it is in the Division 1 schools, but up here in the Northwoods a kid can still have a rewarding career without schools or camps, provided they wrestle their heart out in practice every night. Ramjet's son started late but decided he was really going to dedicate himself to wrestling and made it to State in WIAA and had even greater success in Greco. His family made some serious time and financial commitments to help him achieve the things he did. State was his goal, and he did what it took to achieve it. He deserves every honor he ever received and those he will receive in the future. But he wasn't the only kid on his team who found wrestling rewarding and fun.
If a kid can only be happy with a trip to State, then his family will need to realize what it takes to get it done in today's wrestling world and then do it. But I think a coach can run a good program where some of the kids have other goals and learn how to achieve them with primarily hard in-season work. I don't think kids who go above and beyond that are ruining anything for anybody, though.
Quote from: benaskren on January 20, 2014, 04:53:59 PM
I would say that high school teams participation is fully contingent on 2 things.
1) Coaches ability to relate to the kids
2) Coaches willingness to put effort forth in recruiting.
I disagree on the adjective. FULLY.
I agree that both things are essential. Some kids wrestle for the coach before themselves. They wrestle because their program makes them feel like a part of something. To those kids, the coach is more important than the sport and winning.
Not all kids are like that.
Other factors: Tradition, popularity of current wrestlers, winning as a team, winning as an individual, community commitment, HS administration, kids wrestling club, other offerings at the school, and a million other things come into it.
I think Demos is doing a good job out at BC. I commend him on the current numbers he has. I hope it lasts for him. I believe, however, that his program, like all programs, will ebb and flow. Will he be able to sustain those numbers? We will see.
That's why I said you get out what you put in......it's pretty simple.
Not much financial commitment by the way just gas and time that was well spent with my son. An investment every parent should make.
Quote from: imnofish on January 20, 2014, 09:01:32 PM
I think the original question is based upon an observed polarization among the skill levels of athletic participants. As others have stated, specialization in a particular sport tends to minimize participation in others. The decreased number of participants results in a lack of depth in the overall competition, evidenced by the high numbers of forfeits and pins. How much better would our elite athletes be, if the average/above average competitor was more prevalent on today's teams? How much better would our least competitive wrestlers be? In some schools, I also see other sports, such as basketball and football suffering from a lack of depth/consistent skill performance, as rosters have dwindled. The bottom line is that the athletic experience has lost its balance. Where has it gone? How can we restore it? Must the pursuit of excellence be abandoned, in order to regain it?
The good wrestlers make everyone better in a given room if they are team oriented.
Quote from: Ghetto on January 20, 2014, 10:07:46 PM
Quote from: benaskren on January 20, 2014, 04:53:59 PM
I would say that high school teams participation is fully contingent on 2 things.
1) Coaches ability to relate to the kids
2) Coaches willingness to put effort forth in recruiting.
I disagree on the adjective. FULLY.
I agree that both things are essential. Some kids wrestle for the coach before themselves. They wrestle because their program makes them feel like a part of something. To those kids, the coach is more important than the sport and winning.
Not all kids are like that.
Other factors: Tradition, popularity of current wrestlers, winning as a team, winning as an individual, community commitment, HS administration, kids wrestling club, other offerings at the school, and a million other things come into it.
I think Demos is doing a good job out at BC. I commend him on the current numbers he has. I hope it lasts for him. I believe, however, that his program, like all programs, will ebb and flow. Will he be able to sustain those numbers? We will see.
But to the question do you think Wrestling Schools help or hurt the sport? Or no impact really other than those who go to them?
The only way I could see the answer being yes is if you actually believe the sport of wrestling ONLY teaches the sport and physical act of wrestling. There is much more to it. I also want to say this; young men and women will live UP or DOWN to expectations.
I do not think wrestling schools hurt wrestling in the manner that we are polarizing kids towards extremes.
My issue is remembering who you wrestle for. I'll be honest, if one of my kids goes to a tournament, and they sign up as wrestling for AWA or Ringers, and not Whitefish Bay, it bothers me. I have no delusions that I know more then Ben or Max, or Schmitz or D'Alie, but for four months out of the year I put their happiness before my own, and my kids. I do it for dang near free. I feel like I've earned the right to have our name out there on track wrestling.
Quote from: Ghetto on January 20, 2014, 10:19:00 PM
I do not think wrestling schools hurt wrestling in the manner that we are polarizing kids towards extremes.
My issue is remembering who you wrestle for. I'll be honest, if one of my kids goes to a tournament, and they sign up as wrestling for AWA or Ringers, and not Whitefish Bay, it bothers me. I have no delusions that I know more then Ben or Max, or Schmitz or D'Alie, but for four months out of the year I put their happiness before my own, and my kids. I do it for dang near free. I feel like I've earned the right to have our name out there on track wrestling.
Well I guess that would bother me too but not for the same reason. You do dang near for free because you like it ........right? Of course you do. If you are talking off season I do not see the issue. In Greco we trained at two spots used both names neither coach cared as far as we knew. Both coaches from two different clubs in the same corner helping the kid out that was the important thing. By the way during the school year it is imperative they represent the school I fully agree. They wear the school singlets and represent and everyone knows they wrestle for your school. Small potatoes Ghetto the Track name is small potatoes.
It's not the name.
It's the I belong to something better than you because I am a part of that wrestling school. Never, in my opinion, should a kid get on the medal stand with a wrestling school shirt on rather than his warmups. It symbolizes that they are not a part of their high school team, but rather this club. They just have to have a high school to wrestle for during the winter.
I realize that its ego to some extent. Heck, maybe all of it.
What I don't want is a fractured program for any reason. That includes some kids feeling like they aren't wrestling for the school they attend classes at.
Again, I think the wrestling schools are great for wrestling. Don't get that twisted. I encourage my kids to go to those schools and get higher level skill training than my four years of HS wrestling will allow. Plus I ain't all that smart. ;D
Totally agree. My kids have gone to World Gold and some Askren camps and loved both. They also like wearing the clothing lines and I think it is a lot about the "edge" they believe they have when others see them wearing it. It is more about the partners than the actual training to me and I tell the kids I have helped bring into the wrestling world to take every advantage they can. Some have and some haven't depending on the beliefs of those parents.
However, when it comes to who they go under there has never been a choice. Same goes for the club kids that I have brought up over the years. I had one that went under an "elite" club one time(unless they were on the dual teams of course) and I expressed my dislike for that. It hasn't happened since....school pride is number 1 to me and you should show it 12 months a year.
No insult to those that run the clubs but I think many times it puts a wedge between coaches and those clubs because of going under that particular name. Maybe some don't care....I do.
QuoteI would say that high school teams participation is fully contingent on 2 things.
1) Coaches ability to relate to the kids
2) Coaches willingness to put effort forth in recruiting.
A great example of this I think is Brookfield Central HS. They have never been a wrestling power, do not have a strong kids program, but yet because they have a young energetic coach are getting big numbers. I believe they are around 50 kids this year, while they are not top 10 in the state or anything they have been making great progress and are a solid team.
As far as kids enjoyment levels I think their expectations need to be equivalent to the effort they put out.
For example if a kid wrestles 3 months a year and expects to be a state champ, that will not work out so well for him. At our academy we have kids who wrestle year round and have high expectation and are very satisfied. We also have kids who just come in for a month or two, now while their expectation levels are not as high they are still satisfied by what they get out of the sport.
Love to hear feedback.
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Ben Askren
Askren Bros Wrestling
Assistant Coach at AWA
askrenbros@gmail.com
www.askrenbros.com
I would like to say "Well Said" and that the wrestlers themselves can go a long way recruiting as well.
In the off season in Greco and Freestyle there is nothing wrong with listing the club they train with.
After all you want credit for the off season then run a Greco program at your school.
During school wrestling I absolutely agree support your team and school.
Quote from: Ghetto on January 20, 2014, 10:49:52 PM
It's not the name.
It's the I belong to something better than you because I am a part of that wrestling school. Never, in my opinion, should a kid get on the medal stand with a wrestling school shirt on rather than his warmups. It symbolizes that they are not a part of their high school team, but rather this club. They just have to have a high school to wrestle for
That goes more towards the individuals attitude than the wrestling schools. Right?
So the plus side is that young man/woman is putting in the extra time to get better the coach should teach that person to use that as a leadership incentive and example. Because the other end of the example is not good for the team either.
I think wresting schools are great for the sport and it does improve the overall level of competition if its in your family budget.
The only issue I see is cost for many people. When you only have $300 left in the checkbook and you have to feed the family and put tires on the 85 Buick not to mention gas in it, what is is more important? Wrestling schools are not for every family and there are some that just cant afford it but truly love the sport and enjoy the sport.
I know a family that has to budget per kid and they have 3 kids in sports, so how much "extra" money goes towards softball, gymnastics and wrestling for their family. They talked about getting a second job to pay for the extra clubs their kids had to belong to in order to compete.
I do think wrestling schools have made the overall level competition better and I encourage kids to spend the extra time in the off season to go to them and improve. I also cheer for the kid that gets 3rd knowing his mom and dad would like to send him to a club but cant afford it, its not his fault and he is just doing the best him and his family can do.
Maybe someday the federal government will come up with a program like they did for cell phones to assist families for wrestling schools, just kidding of coarse!
Quote from: 2pointTakedown on January 21, 2014, 08:04:36 AM
I think wresting schools are great for the sport and it does improve the overall level of competition if its in your family budget.
The only issue I see is cost for many people. When you only have $300 left in the checkbook and you have to feed the family and put tires on the 85 Buick not to mention gas in it, what is is more important? Wrestling schools are not for every family and there are some that just cant afford it but truly love the sport and enjoy the sport.
I know a family that has to budget per kid and they have 3 kids in sports, so how much "extra" money goes towards softball, gymnastics and wrestling for their family. They talked about getting a second job to pay for the extra clubs their kids had to belong to in order to compete.
I do think wrestling schools have made the overall level competition better and I encourage kids to spend the extra time in the off season to go to them and improve. I also cheer for the kid that gets 3rd knowing his mom and dad would like to send him to a club but cant afford it, its not his fault and he is just doing the best him and his family can do.
Maybe someday the federal government will come up with a program like they did for cell phones to assist families for wrestling schools, just kidding of coarse!
I disagree with cost analysis.
When my son made decision to get better the decision was made that off season work would do the trick. Now off season programs like Northern Exposure and Aviators and Full Tilt as examples give tremendous experience and work for very little money. Like $35.00 for months worth of three night a week practices. The rooms are filled with like minded hard working kids with atmospheres that are not near as intense but certainly atmosphere where you can improve if you want to. The coaching level is outstanding and the team atmosphere is great. Car pooling can reduce cost time commitments. Coaches if they want can use the knowledge gained by these kids in their rooms to make them better. The kids get better because of repetition and good off season work.
I have seen Dennis Hall work with financially strapped folks and certainly seen that with some of the other "schools" .
So I do not agree you have to have a bunch of money for these opportunities.
Please show me where your going to an elite school for months for $35.
Quote from: aarons23 on January 21, 2014, 08:29:06 AM
Please show me where your going to an elite school for months for $35.
Read the above your answer is there.
In addition to the above there are WWF regional training Centers for Greco and FS.
Quote from: ramjet on January 21, 2014, 08:36:20 AM
Quote from: aarons23 on January 21, 2014, 08:29:06 AM
Please show me where your going to an elite school for months for $35.
Read the above your answer is there.
That's awesome if they do it for that price but that's far and few between. I think the going rate around here is at least $200.
Quote from: ramjet on January 21, 2014, 08:36:20 AM
Quote from: aarons23 on January 21, 2014, 08:29:06 AM
Please show me where your going to an elite school for months for $35.
Read the above your answer is there.
In addition to the above there are WWF regional training Centers for Greco and FS.
The cost is more like $600-700 for 3months or $35 a visit.
I think the WWF schools are good..but I wish they were available farther up north. Otherwise a three hour car ride and two tanks of gas does not make it a good bang for the buck for families living in the outskirts.
Where are most of the schools located in the state? Seams to me (and it just might be a population thing) that most are in Madison, SE Wisconsin and between Milwaukee and greenbay.
I do appreciate AWA having pre season programs in northern Wisconsin. Travel cost is something families have to consider.
Don't get me wrong.. I think schools are very important. But I get upset when I see someone comment about a kid saying "that kid would be a state champ if he applied himself" and knowing that their family does not have much income it's really not fair to make that statement about that kid.
Quote from: padre on January 20, 2014, 11:20:45 PM
Totally agree. My kids have gone to World Gold and some Askren camps and loved both. They also like wearing the clothing lines and I think it is a lot about the "edge" they believe they have when others see them wearing it. It is more about the partners than the actual training to me and I tell the kids I have helped bring into the wrestling world to take every advantage they can. Some have and some haven't depending on the beliefs of those parents.
However, when it comes to who they go under there has never been a choice. Same goes for the club kids that I have brought up over the years. I had one that went under an "elite" club one time(unless they were on the dual teams of course) and I expressed my dislike for that. It hasn't happened since....school pride is number 1 to me and you should show it 12 months a year.
No insult to those that run the clubs but I think many times it puts a wedge between coaches and those clubs because of going under that particular name. Maybe some don't care....I do.
Beautiful Padre!
I would say 250 for 6 weeks is the going rate around here also. I know of a few that offer something like 30 weeks, 1 night a week for 1000$. Which in turn is around 30+ a time.
The regional training center as far as I know isnt close around here but I do believe that it runs in River Falls but on a limited time. Please correct me if I am wrong.
When you figure in travel, gas and such it adds up.
It should also be in a families budget. An extra 1000 is not in some budgets or even an extra 250. Not that they are trying to cheat their children their are family choices to make also.
Also, as parent it is a buyer be wear situation. All because your child goes to these schools does NOT mean a state champ is going to come out. No fault of the coaches but is your child going to put in the extra effort it takes, are they going to get the full workouts and listen to the advice of the coaches. Not blaming the coaches because your child also has to be on board and sadly I see some children that are going through the motions or are doing it because of the parents.
Example: my son is in 4th grade. I think an outside wrestling school is in the cards for him but not this year. As a parent you also have to see where your child is at mentally and physically to handle the challenge of a wrestling school. It is fair to your child, the coaches and they other children that are in there to make sure your child is ready for that kind of training.
These are all a factor in a wrestling school.
All that said Wrestling Schools are not bad for wrestling neither is Greco or Freestyle
The Greco clubs we have trained at have said "I do not care who's name put down just be respectful and a good sport and have fun."
Our coach could care less about it as well in the off season in fact he would use much of what was learned in those camps and schools to try and improve the room.
You should embrace things that improves the wrestling in you're room.
Travel is required no doubt but that was great time for my son and I.
Especially in the northern part of the State.
Heck I know many groups that car pool to go to Northern Exposure switch off driving.
Maybe I should start advertising my elite school ... The Big House School of Wrestling!
We have a statement in our brochure guaranteeing a state title or your money back.
Quote from: Hand Control on January 21, 2014, 03:57:55 AM
QuoteI would say that high school teams participation is fully contingent on 2 things.
1) Coaches ability to relate to the kids
2) Coaches willingness to put effort forth in recruiting.
A great example of this I think is Brookfield Central HS. They have never been a wrestling power, do not have a strong kids program, but yet because they have a young energetic coach are getting big numbers. I believe they are around 50 kids this year, while they are not top 10 in the state or anything they have been making great progress and are a solid team.
As far as kids enjoyment levels I think their expectations need to be equivalent to the effort they put out.
For example if a kid wrestles 3 months a year and expects to be a state champ, that will not work out so well for him. At our academy we have kids who wrestle year round and have high expectation and are very satisfied. We also have kids who just come in for a month or two, now while their expectation levels are not as high they are still satisfied by what they get out of the sport.
Love to hear feedback.
Report to moderator Logged
Ben Askren
Askren Bros Wrestling
Assistant Coach at AWA
askrenbros@gmail.com
www.askrenbros.com
I would like to say "Well Said" and that the wrestlers themselves can go a long way recruiting as well.
Good point. To what extent do we see the best kids on our teams recruiting teammates? I'm not implying that they aren't; just wondering what coaches have observed, in this regard.
Quote from: Big House on January 21, 2014, 11:17:30 AM
Maybe I should start advertising my elite school ... The Big House School of Wrestling!
We have a statement in our brochure guaranteeing a state title or your money back.
That would make you unique.
The Fester wrestling training facility may be causing a disturbance in Pierce County. The kids seem to no longer want to sit in the house and watch TV, or play video games, or text unlimited amount of times. They seem to now want to workout outside climbing silos, or running with log chains attached to their waist. The real go getters get to go in the corn picker simulator and practice driving it back from Indiana. That must be the mental toughness part of the program. Anyway, there seems to be some concern that these kids might be getting something beneficial. ;D ;D
Quote from: ramjet on January 21, 2014, 11:21:00 AM
Quote from: Big House on January 21, 2014, 11:17:30 AM
Maybe I should start advertising my elite school ... The Big House School of Wrestling!
We have a statement in our brochure guaranteeing a state title or your money back.
That would make you unique.
...and guarantee financial deficits for your school. ;D
The wrestling schools are a huge bonus compared to the past for all those wrestlers that want to wrestle year round. This was not always a possibility. It costs money but the access is much greater than it ever was prior.
It also really helps those better wrestlers because they can hopefully find better practice partners and challenges than they might have in their own HS practice room.
I still think quality practices with great practice partners is much better than matches.
The WIAA should allow or maybe coaches have this opportunity already and could just count it as an event. Invite 6 teams to your gym/wrestlingroom on a Friday night or Saturday morning. Run a 3 hour practice with some breaks and you can get all the matches and training you want in a short time. Sure beats going to a tournament for 8 hours and having to weigh in for 3-4 matches or 20-25 minutes max of wrestling.
Quote from: DocWrestling on January 21, 2014, 11:34:40 AM
The wrestling schools are a huge bonus compared to the past for all those wrestlers that want to wrestle year round. This was not always a possibility. It costs money but the access is much greater than it ever was prior.
It also really helps those better wrestlers because they can hopefully find better practice partners and challenges than they might have in their own HS practice room.
I still think quality practices with great practice partners is much better than matches.
The WIAA should allow or maybe coaches have this opportunity already and could just count it as an event. Invite 6 teams to your gym/wrestlingroom on a Friday night or Saturday morning. Run a 3 hour practice with some breaks and you can get all the matches and training you want in a short time. Sure beats going to a tournament for 8 hours and having to weigh in for 3-4 matches or 20-25 minutes max of wrestling.
In Illinois, back in the 1960's, we used to do this a couple of times per season. It was great!
Quote from: aarons23 on January 21, 2014, 08:29:06 AM
Please show me where your going to an elite school for months for $35.
When my son wrestled with the Wisconsin Wrestling Club it was $20 for the season. Covered use of the blue warmups. After 8th grade he switched to Victory and the cost was much higher. Difference was the WWC had volunteer coaches, Kevin Black was operating a business.
Point is... there are or can be cost effective opportunities if you can find people to run the program.
I think if a wrestler is going to AWA or another wrestling school, it could really help the actual school they wrestle for quite a bit. That wrestler is learning new techniques and getting better, which should in theory make the kids he wrestles in practice better as well. Also, that wrestler can share the techniques learned at the wrestling school to further benefit the team.
Simple answer to the original question:
NO.
Quote from: imnofish on January 21, 2014, 11:33:14 AM
Quote from: ramjet on January 21, 2014, 11:21:00 AM
Quote from: Big House on January 21, 2014, 11:17:30 AM
Maybe I should start advertising my elite school ... The Big House School of Wrestling!
We have a statement in our brochure guaranteeing a state title or your money back.
That would make you unique.
...and guarantee financial deficits for your school. ;D
I was thinking of hiring you too ... maybe not after that remark!
$20,000 for the season and I GUARANTEE a state title. There's 42 state champs in Wisconsin ... I'll bet I could at least get 3-4 of them from my elite team. I'll make enough to teach the others for free!
Interesting question. And a lot of interesting comments. As far as price there is a lot more overlooked than just the cost of the school. When the level gets high enough to go to a school you more then likely are now doing National tournaments and a lot off season wrestling. start adding that up once. Why don't one of you wrestling junkies look up all the high school (or even youth) state champs from last year. bet you will have a hard time finding very many that don't go to wrestling schools.
Quote from: Big House on January 21, 2014, 03:14:39 PM
Quote from: imnofish on January 21, 2014, 11:33:14 AM
Quote from: ramjet on January 21, 2014, 11:21:00 AM
Quote from: Big House on January 21, 2014, 11:17:30 AM
Maybe I should start advertising my elite school ... The Big House School of Wrestling!
We have a statement in our brochure guaranteeing a state title or your money back.
That would make you unique.
...and guarantee financial deficits for your school. ;D
I was thinking of hiring you too ... maybe not after that remark!
$20,000 for the season and I GUARANTEE a state title. There's 42 state champs in Wisconsin ... I'll bet I could at least get 3-4 of them from my elite team. I'll make enough to teach the others for free!
Well, since you put it that way.... :-*
Not bad. Where I live wrestlers who wish to excel young go to our youth program and some go to LAW for more. Some kids live for wrestling and I'm happy as a clam to get LAW kids. Better partners, better wrestling.
Certainly beneficial to many kids, some kids are there because parents stick them there.
I know this example is an anomaly, but here goes...
I do a fair amount of mentor-coaching, because I'm not in the school system.
Fairly recently, I spent 3 years with a certain young man who didn't want to spend the resources ( nor did his folks) on the local wrestling club. He was, however, willing to sacrifice his starting fullback position on a state play-off bound team to get in the best shape of his life. So, upon my advice, he ran XC his last two years of high school, and grew a gas tank of biblical proportion. He also ran track in the spring, and biked all summer.
However, he bucked technical sound advice til he got to the state tournament, wherein he finally let go of the deep underhook, went to the elbow instead, and took his outstanding semi-final opponent down with a high crotch in OT sudden death to make the finals. He also won in OT sudden death in the finals. His quarterfinal match was won with a last second elbow-tie ducking high crotch in regulation.
His final opponent remarked to this young man while waiting for the medals " how can I go to my club practice year round and still not win the state championship" or something to that like. It was an incredible bracket as it was...but the youngster who sacrificed the most came out on top.
I realize this is the exception rather than the rule, but here is proof that more isn't necessarily best. Belief + preparation ( and the good fortune not to catch a cold or flu come tournament time) goes a long way.
That belief part is huge, in my humble opinion. I also believe that, with a great front headlock, a young person can win state.
That is great analogy but the common thread to wining is sacrifice hard work and commitment. I really have no issue on how you make those things happen; private lessons, open gym or even working out with buddies in a barn but it stands to reason you want to get better you have to put in the time. Maybe I should say the extra time.
I would be curious to see some stats as to the number of State Qualifiers and the amount of off season work they do?
There are no wrestling schools in this neck of the woods. Maybe this is not the norm, but a have seen a few 3 sport athletes that have won State titles and some multiple State Titles with little to NO off season wrestling.
Just thought I would throw that out there
I'd rather see a kid in three sports than just one all year round ... just my two cents.
In small schools most athletes will be 3 sport athletes my son was Football, Wrestling and Golf.
In fact I cannot think of any of the wrestlers in our rooms that were not.
Golf was always a crap shoot with weather so days no Golf practice because of 6" of snow he went to Greco practice.
Yes there are exceptional athletes that have the right path and make it to State without off season practice but most the top ranked wrestlers in this State do some off season work or camps.
Harley are you advocating that or just saying?
Quote from: ramjet on January 22, 2014, 01:09:17 PM
In small schools most athletes will be 3 sport athletes my son was Football, Wrestling and Golf.
In fact I cannot think of any of the wrestlers in our rooms that were not.
Golf was always a crap shoot with weather so days no Golf practice because of 6" of snow he went to Greco practice.
Yes there are exceptional athletes that have the right path and make it to State without off season practice but most the top ranked wrestlers in this State do some off season work or camps.
Harley are you advocating that or just saying?
I advocate whatever works for each individual. All I am saying is it can be done without wrestling year round. I really have no skin in this one way or the other. I personally enjoyed my son in 3 sports through out high school as well as a member of the local water ski show all summer.
Harley has no choice ... there are no ultimate elite super schools near him.
Quote from: Big House on January 22, 2014, 02:02:01 PM
Harley has no choice ... there are no ultimate elite super schools near him.
C/PF meets that criteria!
What about the "Big House School of Wrestling"?
Quote from: handsandtoes on January 21, 2014, 04:01:48 PM
Interesting question. And a lot of interesting comments. As far as price there is a lot more overlooked than just the cost of the school. When the level gets high enough to go to a school you more then likely are now doing National tournaments and a lot off season wrestling. start adding that up once. Why don't one of you wrestling junkies look up all the high school (or even youth) state champs from last year. bet you will have a hard time finding very many that don't go to wrestling schools.
I looked at the two oldest groups in youth state. By what I come up with just by what is listed as their club/team name plus kids I know that go to wrestling schools. It looks like 14 out of the 48 bracket winners were wrestling school kids. I don't know all wrestling school names in the state so I may have missed a few. Most time you can tell by the team name. Example LAW I didn't consider a wrestling school. Also not all parents put the wrestling school a lot put their hometown.
I would consider LAW a wrestling school because they draw from many communities, even Minnesota.
That changes it to 18 out of 48.
Quote from: aarons23 on January 22, 2014, 02:34:37 PM
I would consider LAW a wrestling school because they draw from many communities, even Minnesota.
Quote from: harley on January 22, 2014, 11:32:11 AM
There are no wrestling schools in this neck of the woods. Maybe this is not the norm, but a have seen a few 3 sport athletes that have won State titles and some multiple State Titles with little to NO off season wrestling.
Just thought I would throw that out there
I think you are forgetting about one school not too far from you.
Quote from: harley on January 22, 2014, 01:58:47 PM
Quote from: ramjet on January 22, 2014, 01:09:17 PM
In small schools most athletes will be 3 sport athletes my son was Football, Wrestling and Golf.
In fact I cannot think of any of the wrestlers in our rooms that were not.
Golf was always a crap shoot with weather so days no Golf practice because of 6" of snow he went to Greco practice.
Yes there are exceptional athletes that have the right path and make it to State without off season practice but most the top ranked wrestlers in this State do some off season work or camps.
Harley are you advocating that or just saying?
I advocate whatever works for each individual. All I am saying is it can be done without wrestling year round. I really have no skin in this one way or the other. I personally enjoyed my son in 3 sports through out high school as well as a member of the local water ski show all summer.
[/
I would dare to say most D2-3 schools kids are not one sport athletes.
Coleman two years ago and Edgar had some very strong football and baseball teams mNy of the athletes did all three sports.
Quote from: HMsDad on January 22, 2014, 02:39:42 PM
That changes it to 18 out of 48.Quote from: aarons23 on January 22, 2014, 02:34:37 PM
I would consider LAW a wrestling school because they draw from many communities, even Minnesota.
No offense but Youth State is poor example.
How does SR High look?
Quote from: ramjet on January 22, 2014, 02:46:49 PM
Quote from: HMsDad on January 22, 2014, 02:39:42 PM
That changes it to 18 out of 48.Quote from: aarons23 on January 22, 2014, 02:34:37 PM
I would consider LAW a wrestling school because they draw from many communities, even Minnesota.
No offense but Youth State is poor example.
How does SR High look?
I just did youth because it is easier to see by what they list as team. HS only puts school name.
Quote from: Houndhead on January 22, 2014, 02:41:42 PM
Quote from: harley on January 22, 2014, 11:32:11 AM
There are no wrestling schools in this neck of the woods. Maybe this is not the norm, but a have seen a few 3 sport athletes that have won State titles and some multiple State Titles with little to NO off season wrestling.
Just thought I would throw that out there
I think you are forgetting about one school not too far from you.
Northern Exposure?? Yes they do a great job, they do not go year round and go once or twice a week for a few months. Very good program though!!!
Quote from: Ghetto on January 20, 2014, 10:19:00 PM
I do not think wrestling schools hurt wrestling in the manner that we are polarizing kids towards extremes.
My issue is remembering who you wrestle for. I'll be honest, if one of my kids goes to a tournament, and they sign up as wrestling for AWA or Ringers, and not Whitefish Bay, it bothers me. I have no delusions that I know more then Ben or Max, or Schmitz or D'Alie, but for four months out of the year I put their happiness before my own, and my kids. I do it for dang near free. I feel like I've earned the right to have our name out there on track wrestling.
I guess you can get caught in a bad way with this also ,as I have. I signed my kid up for his home school ,you know where he goes to school. After doing this I had some club parents ask me why I chose to do this after talking to them about it the subject died out ,so I thought. Last night at club practice I was told ,by one of the coaches , that I had to sign my kid up for club ,or stop bringing my kid up to club practice. I understand both sides to this ,the coaches at club do not so while he is finishing up his club days I'll be signing my kid up for his club. Hopefully this will be a bend but not break solution to a situation that I didn't think was a big deal. This is a club where our family has made friends with a lot of nice people.
I can understand Ghettos feelings and though on this, but there's a quick fix to that, simply mentioning the school first followed by the club name in smaller font if Wanted. ;)..a few years back a good friend was the head coach at a very large school, he had 4 or 5 wrestlers make the state meet that year an one made the finals. During the afternoon on sat. The parent of the wrestler who was to wrestle that night in the finals approached him and Told him he wanted his personal trainer to be sitting in the corner with him that night instead of his asst. coach..ya, that went over like a ton of bricks..the response given back by the coach was a simple, Straight up... );(/-you!...what Brad, Ben,Max and the rest of these men do for these young wrestlers is simply terrific! But I also believe they know their place as far as the high season goes...PS. This was not the trainers idea...it was a pushed agenda by the kids father and bad feelings did follow...bottom line is, if ya want to be a better wrestler and in that top % of wrestlers in the state ...get to a club, the result don't lie... :)
Maggie Thanks for the idea ,but I will just go back to signing the kid back up under club. The high road will hopefully help and hopefully back to not being a big deal.
P.S. Good luck to your Milton wrestlers in the up and coming weeks.
My kid belongs to the club that bears the name of his school. That's his club. We also pay for him to go to one of the wrestling schools.. We sign up for every tournament with the school name even if we are the only one from the club going. Admittedly, we have a very strong club with an excellent coach, and I can't say with 100% certainty what we would do if that's not the case, but in the situation we are in, I want my kid to be proud if the community for which he wrestles more than the name of a great wrestling school that we also happen to attend:-)
I just got this image of a bunch of kids at state wearing warmups with the word "FESTER" on them. ;D
Quote from: imnofish on February 11, 2014, 10:58:34 AM
I just got this image of a bunch of kids at state wearing warmups with the word "FESTER" on them. ;D
Considering their at State would explain the benefits of the training regiment at Fester U. Should be noted too that many of these warm ups do have a warning label saying " Do Not Try This At Home "
Quote from: Street Glide on February 11, 2014, 11:14:41 AM
Quote from: imnofish on February 11, 2014, 10:58:34 AM
I just got this image of a bunch of kids at state wearing warmups with the word "FESTER" on them. ;D
Considering their at State would explain the benefits of the training regiment at Fester U. Should be noted too that many of these warm ups do have a warning label saying " Do Not Try This At Home "
I need to get one of those shirts for my son. He wants one and would be proud to wear it under his schools sweat shirt ;D
From my personal experience as a wrestler I did go to a school of wrestling and it did wonders for me. I got to wrestle with the best kids in the state that were around that area. It pushed kids to get better by having these great work out partners and the technique that is being showed is also great. Kids who put in the extra work will go far in the sport. This is why our sport is great because it shows people who has been working hard and who hasn't, and for the person asking if this hurts high school programs or the youth I would disagree. If you have a kid who is putting in the extra work and is gaining success many of the other kids in the program will look up to that individual and also want to put in extra work. I think it helps the program because you have a kid who is pushing his team to be better by having a good work ethic and is helping the other kids becoming better by being a good partner for them to wrestle with during practice.
Quote from: 3wrestle on February 11, 2014, 12:49:58 PM
Our sons go to a club where if you wrestle local/ state level tourn. you write your school down. At national tourn. we write the club name. Some club members at the high school level at nationals write the school name down. Coaches still coach no hard feelings between anyone.
I think that last part is the key. Let's be adults in the situations and focus on what both the HS and the wrestling club should be doing...making these youngsters better wrestlers.
Club coaches get paid much more than HS coaches per hour and don't have half the hassles of grades and physicals and don't have to deal with all the issues of the other athletes that are not as committed, etc.
HS coaches like to have some pride in the few wrestlers they have that do compete outside of the HS season and do well as it helps validate all their hard work and makes it worth it in a sense as well as promoting their program. HS wrestling coaches have a lot to deal with with athletes, parents, and administrators and they put in an inordinate amount of time so put a smile on their faces by putting down your hometown high school as your team.
Doc, I just do not even believe that you are bringing up coaches pay on this thread that is ridiculous and totally out of line.
For crying out loud this is so simple..............
During the School Year while wrestling for your school that is the name they use period.
In the off season if they compete in an off season Tournament then use whatever name you want....at that point the rules laid out by the WIAA may be in violation if they are wrestling for their school? Plus when they train with that "other" team they should be part of that "other" team. Plus how many of these High School Coaches other than few obvious ones put the extra time in for Greco and FS in the off season or run off season camps or practices? Well first off as I mentioned they are limited by the WIAA and secondly those who do open it for everyone from all over the area to circumvent the stupid WIAA rules then that group becomes a team by another name.
Pride and all that is understandable you have the choice but do not force your choice onto someone else.
I can tell you all the so called "Wrestling Schools" my son attended the coaches NEVER required or said that he should give them a plug. NOT ONE.........well except for the National Greco Team. Then it was Team Wisconsin I hope the local school was not mad at him for writing down Wisconsin instead of...................... ::)
Much ado about nothing extra work and commitment for offseason Wrestling makes the wrestlers better in 99% of the cases and those who are great without then so be it. But sod not try put down or find areason to complain because they are working extra hard or putting in the extra time.
This isn't a ridiculous question as many have portrayed it. Have these training opportunities outside school season offerings improved the quality of wrestling by increasing exposure to quality technique and partners, especially during the off season? Absolutely!
Have they alienated average wrestlers who are willing to participate in the most grueling sport available in high school for 4 months but would like to explore other opportunities and have some down time in the off season? Absolutely again. Right of Wrong, this is at least one of the factors influencing decreasing numbers in the sport. In the xbox generation, where kids can be a legend in their own mind with a few well timed flicks of a hand controller, why would they bust their butts for 4 months and then come to the realization it is usually not enough to be great at the sport? I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying it is a factor.
Quote from: tmandr on February 11, 2014, 04:03:26 PM
This isn't a ridiculous question as many have portrayed it. Have these training opportunities outside school season offerings improved the quality of wrestling by increasing exposure to quality technique and partners, especially during the off season? Absolutely!
Have they alienated average wrestlers who are willing to participate in the most grueling sport available in high school for 4 months but would like to explore other opportunities and have some down time in the off season? Absolutely again. Right of Wrong, this is at least one of the factors influencing decreasing numbers in the sport. In the xbox generation, where kids can be a legend in their own mind with a few well timed flicks of a hand controller, why would they bust their butts for 4 months and then come to the realization it is usually not enough to be great at the sport? I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying it is a factor.
You can't blame that on wrestling schools. In our program in Milton we have kids that do go to these wrestling schools and then we have the kids that do not. The kids that do not go to the wrestling schools work just as hard in practice as the kids that do go to the schools. The kids are not being alienated by the schools. Many of these schools will let the average wrestler join so he can get better just like everyone else. These kids do not have to wrestle year round so I do not understand your argument for the down time in the off-season. If the average wrestler quits to play video games then that is due to his own laziness, not the wrestling schools.
Quote from: tmandr on February 11, 2014, 04:03:26 PM
This isn't a ridiculous question as many have portrayed it. Have these training opportunities outside school season offerings improved the quality of wrestling by increasing exposure to quality technique and partners, especially during the off season? Absolutely!
Have they alienated average wrestlers who are willing to participate in the most grueling sport available in high school for 4 months but would like to explore other opportunities and have some down time in the off season? Absolutely again. Right of Wrong, this is at least one of the factors influencing decreasing numbers in the sport. In the xbox generation, where kids can be a legend in their own mind with a few well timed flicks of a hand controller, why would they bust their butts for 4 months and then come to the realization it is usually not enough to be great at the sport? I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying it is a factor.
Well if kids are using this as an excuse ::) then it is weak one at that, the numbers are decreasing for many reasons young men in wrestling schools is not that much of factor. Heck school enrollment is declining the opportunities outside wrestling that may not take the work or discipline are plentiful. In fact good training and off season opportunities may be the one thing that is driving the sport in the right direction. What kids are afraid to loose? Or like the Singlet issue is it just another weak excuse to not work hard in a tough individual sport. Every young man and women have the same opportunity to go to off season programs they are not all expensive schools. Just doing off season tournaments that are plentiful will help. Whats the excuse for that? These training opportunities are great for the sport and their is no real down side. If young man/lady has a bad attitude or a holier than thou attitude because they go a Wrestling School then the coach needs to deal with that if the kid is tough enough to back the attitude then maybe someone needs to step up and help him tone it down? (thats the team side of the sport). But this cry baby crap about these schools ruining the sport is just weak excuse. What maybe in High School we should just give everyone a trophy for being there and instead of wrestling for first place maybe just little participation trophy is in order? ::)
You want to see tough go watch a College Tournament then the High School dual meet may not look so tough. but you may be right those competitors want to be there and work hard and take their lumps to get better.
I think what it is is some folks want to say and use the excuse that others put in the time and training to become very good and it is a convenient excuse to say why another kid maybe yours is not doing so well?
School or not you still have to work your tail off to get better. The Wrestling Schools just do not wave a wand over the top of your kid and they are State Champions.......
I am not speaking to you exclusively because I do not know you but you get what I am saying.
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 11, 2014, 02:30:21 PM
Club coaches get paid much more than HS coaches per hour and don't have half the hassles of grades and physicals and don't have to deal with all the issues of the other athletes that are not as committed, etc.
HS coaches like to have some pride in the few wrestlers they have that do compete outside of the HS season and do well as it helps validate all their hard work and makes it worth it in a sense as well as promoting their program. HS wrestling coaches have a lot to deal with with athletes, parents, and administrators and they put in an inordinate amount of time so put a smile on their faces by putting down your hometown high school as your team.
+1 Not to mention all of time most of them spend planning lessons, teaching classes, grading papers, taking college classes to maintain their teaching license, etc.
Quote from: ramjet on February 11, 2014, 03:27:03 PM
Doc, I just do not even believe that you are bringing up coaches pay on this thread that is ridiculous and totally out of line.
For crying out loud this is so simple..............
During the School Year while wrestling for your school that is the name they use period.
In the off season if they compete in an off season Tournament then use whatever name you want....at that point the rules laid out by the WIAA may be in violation if they are wrestling for their school? Plus when they train with that "other" team they should be part of that "other" team. Plus how many of these High School Coaches other than few obvious ones put the extra time in for Greco and FS in the off season or run off season camps or practices? Well first off as I mentioned they are limited by the WIAA and secondly those who do open it for everyone from all over the area to circumvent the stupid WIAA rules then that group becomes a team by another name.
Pride and all that is understandable you have the choice but do not force your choice onto someone else.
I can tell you all the so called "Wrestling Schools" my son attended the coaches NEVER required or said that he should give them a plug. NOT ONE.........well except for the National Greco Team. Then it was Team Wisconsin I hope the local school was not mad at him for writing down Wisconsin instead of...................... ::)
Much ado about nothing extra work and commitment for offseason Wrestling makes the wrestlers better in 99% of the cases and those who are great without then so be it. But sod not try put down or find areason to complain because they are working extra hard or putting in the extra time.
I like your thought but the problem is that there are a few clubs that demand you wrestle under the clubs name like someone posted earlier. I should say, wrestle for our club or your out.
I find that kind of sad. I do think that most coaches are in this to make the wrestlers better and should work together to get the most out of the wrestlers, not working against each other and fighting over kids.
I am all for wrestling schools, great chance to wrestler more and get great partners. I think that is win/win for all involved.
I think wrestling schools are outstanding and give those wrestlers so many advantages for training out of season.
My point was that nobody has more time and effort invested in helping a wrestler than his HS coach. That is on and off the mat in school, life and wrestling. I hope wrestlers (and parents) realize and appreciate that fact as many wrestlers are enamored with the club coaches wrestling credentials and experiences and often put them on a pedestal higher than their HS coach/program.
Quote from: littleguy301 on February 11, 2014, 09:11:50 PM
Quote from: ramjet on February 11, 2014, 03:27:03 PM
Doc, I just do not even believe that you are bringing up coaches pay on this thread that is ridiculous and totally out of line.
For crying out loud this is so simple..............
During the School Year while wrestling for your school that is the name they use period.
In the off season if they compete in an off season Tournament then use whatever name you want....at that point the rules laid out by the WIAA may be in violation if they are wrestling for their school? Plus when they train with that "other" team they should be part of that "other" team. Plus how many of these High School Coaches other than few obvious ones put the extra time in for Greco and FS in the off season or run off season camps or practices? Well first off as I mentioned they are limited by the WIAA and secondly those who do open it for everyone from all over the area to circumvent the stupid WIAA rules then that group becomes a team by another name.
Pride and all that is understandable you have the choice but do not force your choice onto someone else.
I can tell you all the so called "Wrestling Schools" my son attended the coaches NEVER required or said that he should give them a plug. NOT ONE.........well except for the National Greco Team. Then it was Team Wisconsin I hope the local school was not mad at him for writing down Wisconsin instead of...................... ::)
Much ado about nothing extra work and commitment for offseason Wrestling makes the wrestlers better in 99% of the cases and those who are great without then so be it. But sod not try put down or find areason to complain because they are working extra hard or putting in the extra time.
I like your thought but the problem is that there are a few clubs that demand you wrestle under the clubs name like someone posted earlier. I should say, wrestle for our club or your out.
I find that kind of sad. I do think that most coaches are in this to make the wrestlers better and should work together to get the most out of the wrestlers, not working against each other and fighting over kids.
I am all for wrestling schools, great chance to wrestler more and get great partners. I think that is win/win for all involved.
LG name these school that do that I am curious as to who they are.
Plus they look at these forums and I actually think that is heresay. If the kids acts that way it not taught at these schools if it is lets get it out out in the open so they can respond.
I think in the off season some clubs might want kids to use the club name thats OK but I have NEVER heard of one that says the kid has to use the Clubs name during the season not once so I an curious as to who these clubs are? In fact specifically heard one coach of club say he could care less who put down at Greco State and FS.
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 11, 2014, 10:09:22 PM
I think wrestling schools are outstanding and give those wrestlers so many advantages for training out of season.
My point was that nobody has more time and effort invested in helping a wrestler than his HS coach. That is on and off the mat in school, life and wrestling. I hope wrestlers (and parents) realize and appreciate that fact as many wrestlers are enamored with the club coaches wrestling credentials and experiences and often put them on a pedestal higher than their HS coach/program.
Some of these wrestlers spend MORE time with the Wrestling School coaches than the High School Coach just because of contact rules and because in the summer and fall and spring the High School coaches may be coaching other sports or even may not want to talk wrestling year around so that statement is very broad and not accurate.
I think your second paragraph is out of line. You would be impressed and I wonder if you even understand how guys like Dennis Hall and Arnie and Askren, Jordon Crass interact with the kids, they live and breath wrestling/life they care about the kids and for you to say other wise is completely without cause or reason and frankly is slap in the face to people who are genuine and promoting the sport the right way. I see your posts as sour grapes for some reason or perhaps you think it is not "fair" certain young men/gals have this opportunity? These guys for sure take pride in helping shape young men/women who may not be all that good into solid competitive wrestlers with out prejudice as to ability to pay or even athletic ability. They teach work ethic, discipline, commitment and they all expect good solid sportsmanship.
Not sure what your angle is but reeks to high heaven this thread was not about the High School Coach most everyone has high respect for those people and Wrestling Schools in most cases work with coaches to help them improve their programs...
For you or anyone to infer these men would in any way sabotage a High School program or undermine the High School Coach is absolutely ludicrous. The kid may be too big for his/her britches after attending but that is more reflection on the kid than any program they are part of. Because the people I mentioned not one of them would be happy with that behavior.
I will also tell you plenty of High School coaches I know specific instances do not put much effort or time into a program they have not and do not put in the the extra effort. But that does not demean the efforts and work that most of them put forth and it should not. Also know some of who you referring to about the time they spend get paid to do so all day long because they are also teachers.
Quote from: 3wrestle on February 12, 2014, 09:29:33 AM
If I remember correctly someone a page or so back stated he was told by a club coach to write the club down or stop coming.
Then name the CLUB I bet it is a misinterpretation and that may have been for
offseason competition not during the High School year, again, without specific names and the right for that Club Coach to defend themselves it is speculation.
Why do people want to put down opportunities that hard working kids want to pursue to get better, because their kid may not want too?
Again the Wrestling Schools do not wave their hand over the wrestler and make them a State Champion it takes allot of work. Work they obviously are NOT getting in the High School Room or they would not
pay to get that somewhere else.
What is getting me reeved up is this thread and some folks come across like this; Not all kids can work so hard or want to work so hard to be as good as those who do, so we should make everyone the same level so no one gets their feeling hurt by loosing . In other words the wins and State Titles should just be handed out to everyone. Participation medals................. ::)
Here are a few reasons our Club requires Youth wrestlers to register under our Club and to wear our singlets during the folkstyle season:
1. Registering under our club will most likely split club members up from Wrestling each other at tournaments-trackwrestling will seperate them by doing this. Why travel across the state or to national tournaments to get your wrestling partner first round.
2. Wearing the club singlet helps the coaches find their wrestlers quickly when they walk on the mat. It also promotes the team aspect. National tournaments they are allowed to wear any singlets.
3. Wrestling for 1 team also helps each wrestler. They have a choice..wrestle for the club or wrestle for their team only. It prevents the kids from showing up on a part time basis which in the long run hurts the team. HS kids dont have that choice to choose to wrestle 1 day for a club and next for their team. Their partners expect them to be there everyday.
4. Our club allows HS Wrestlers to train extra for free during the folkstyle season..thats right free. I'm really trying to understand How Wrestling schools hurt teams???? Our little guys look up to these HS kids and makes them work harder. When they see a HS kid come in after already putting in 2-3 hours at school and see these hs kids dominating it only promotes both programs!
Just my opinion
The key word is Youth.
If the School has Youth Program and are their with the Public School team the requirement to wear your singlet is not an issue because you did not bring them there correct?
Yes Ramjet. We have several kids that wrestle for their middle schools and come to our practices. If they travel with their school they wear their school singlet. Usually these are School programs and dont affect open tournaments.
If you are questioning whether wrestling schools are hurting teams - just throwing this out there - what about clubs? i am all for them - but let me explain. Our junior high wrestling season is just starting next week - it is the way our conference is set up. The past five years we have probably only had 10-12 wrestlers (7th/8th grade) each year. I couldn't figure out why so many good athletes were not giving wrestling a try, especially football players. I had at least a dozen kids say - I don't do club and I am already behind the eight ball compared to all the other kids. I talked with many of these kids and explained to them that it doesn't matter if you never tried it before - we will try to put against kids that are at your skill level and I explained that sometimes you will get a good kid but that's ok. I told them stories of how we had kids not start wrestling until their sophomore year in high school and make it to state their senior year. I told them of kids not being able to wrestle themselves out of a paper bag their freshman year and then being a 3 time varsity starter with 20+ wins each year. I have given them a vision - if this group of 30 (yes I got 30 kids to sign up) can stick together, and it is a very athletic group - we can win conference championships, maybe get to team state depending on how hard they work. We have been hurting for numbers in high school for a few years - I went out to change that - and I think I did. I got this quote off a website and I have said it to the kids - "Every time a player fully commits to the team, the team's strength multiplies. Commitment follows trust. All in!" I hope to carry that quote with them the next 5-6 years. Sorry if I got a little off the point but I learned if you want kids out - get out and talk to them and ease some of their fears of trying wrestling.
Yes Ram I was told to put the club name down, so it is not speculation. And that is what I am going to go back to doing. The club coaches do put there time in and do care about all the kids. I will say it again I just didn't see it as a big deal and wanted to hear some other opinions. So Iceman as always you have handled this with class. And I'm glad you said it most likely separates the kids, because eventually the better kids usually come together anyways and for smaller tourneys sometimes they don't get separated anyways. I guess this has been a real eye opener on a lot of levels. One of which is to how schools like Stratford have been able to grow in numbers like they have, they put down Stratford for the tourneys they go to, out of pride for their school. And I doubt that any of the clubs they go to say, If you do that with your kid don't come back to our wrestling school. As I am sure they know they have put the time in with the kids too, but they are probably just happy they are wrestling. Again thanks to those that have had made suggestions.
Quote from: ramjet on February 12, 2014, 08:53:48 AM
Quote from: littleguy301 on February 11, 2014, 09:11:50 PM
Quote from: ramjet on February 11, 2014, 03:27:03 PM
Doc, I just do not even believe that you are bringing up coaches pay on this thread that is ridiculous and totally out of line.
For crying out loud this is so simple..............
During the School Year while wrestling for your school that is the name they use period.
In the off season if they compete in an off season Tournament then use whatever name you want....at that point the rules laid out by the WIAA may be in violation if they are wrestling for their school? Plus when they train with that "other" team they should be part of that "other" team. Plus how many of these High School Coaches other than few obvious ones put the extra time in for Greco and FS in the off season or run off season camps or practices? Well first off as I mentioned they are limited by the WIAA and secondly those who do open it for everyone from all over the area to circumvent the stupid WIAA rules then that group becomes a team by another name.
Pride and all that is understandable you have the choice but do not force your choice onto someone else.
I can tell you all the so called "Wrestling Schools" my son attended the coaches NEVER required or said that he should give them a plug. NOT ONE.........well except for the National Greco Team. Then it was Team Wisconsin I hope the local school was not mad at him for writing down Wisconsin instead of...................... ::)
Much ado about nothing extra work and commitment for offseason Wrestling makes the wrestlers better in 99% of the cases and those who are great without then so be it. But sod not try put down or find areason to complain because they are working extra hard or putting in the extra time.
I like your thought but the problem is that there are a few clubs that demand you wrestle under the clubs name like someone posted earlier. I should say, wrestle for our club or your out.
I find that kind of sad. I do think that most coaches are in this to make the wrestlers better and should work together to get the most out of the wrestlers, not working against each other and fighting over kids.
I am all for wrestling schools, great chance to wrestler more and get great partners. I think that is win/win for all involved.
LG name these school that do that I am curious as to who they are.
Plus they look at these forums and I actually think that is heresay. If the kids acts that way it not taught at these schools if it is lets get it out out in the open so they can respond.
I think in the off season some clubs might want kids to use the club name thats OK but I have NEVER heard of one that says the kid has to use the Clubs name during the season not once so I an curious as to who these clubs are? In fact specifically heard one coach of club say he could care less who put down at Greco State and FS.
I am not going to sit back and blast away about stories from parents around the way.
Most of the problems are over regionals. I havent heard many problems about Greco and Freestyle because most public schools dont offer that and they have to go to outside clubs for that.
I think most of the problems come from the time of regionals where some public schools are still having middle school wrestling and the wrestlers are wrestling for another school during that time.
I would also think that if that school is WIAA then you might have some code issues also.
Once again I am for outside help and I encourage it from my stand point also. I think the main problem is communication between the clubs and school coaches.
Quote from: littleguy301 on February 12, 2014, 12:19:42 PM
Quote from: ramjet on February 12, 2014, 08:53:48 AM
Quote from: littleguy301 on February 11, 2014, 09:11:50 PM
Quote from: ramjet on February 11, 2014, 03:27:03 PM
Doc, I just do not even believe that you are bringing up coaches pay on this thread that is ridiculous and totally out of line.
For crying out loud this is so simple..............
During the School Year while wrestling for your school that is the name they use period.
In the off season if they compete in an off season Tournament then use whatever name you want....at that point the rules laid out by the WIAA may be in violation if they are wrestling for their school? Plus when they train with that "other" team they should be part of that "other" team. Plus how many of these High School Coaches other than few obvious ones put the extra time in for Greco and FS in the off season or run off season camps or practices? Well first off as I mentioned they are limited by the WIAA and secondly those who do open it for everyone from all over the area to circumvent the stupid WIAA rules then that group becomes a team by another name.
Pride and all that is understandable you have the choice but do not force your choice onto someone else.
I can tell you all the so called "Wrestling Schools" my son attended the coaches NEVER required or said that he should give them a plug. NOT ONE.........well except for the National Greco Team. Then it was Team Wisconsin I hope the local school was not mad at him for writing down Wisconsin instead of...................... ::)
Much ado about nothing extra work and commitment for offseason Wrestling makes the wrestlers better in 99% of the cases and those who are great without then so be it. But sod not try put down or find areason to complain because they are working extra hard or putting in the extra time.
I like your thought but the problem is that there are a few clubs that demand you wrestle under the clubs name like someone posted earlier. I should say, wrestle for our club or your out.
I find that kind of sad. I do think that most coaches are in this to make the wrestlers better and should work together to get the most out of the wrestlers, not working against each other and fighting over kids.
I am all for wrestling schools, great chance to wrestler more and get great partners. I think that is win/win for all involved.
LG name these school that do that I am curious as to who they are.
Plus they look at these forums and I actually think that is heresay. If the kids acts that way it not taught at these schools if it is lets get it out out in the open so they can respond.
I think in the off season some clubs might want kids to use the club name thats OK but I have NEVER heard of one that says the kid has to use the Clubs name during the season not once so I an curious as to who these clubs are? In fact specifically heard one coach of club say he could care less who put down at Greco State and FS.
I am not going to sit back and blast away about stories from parents around the way.
Most of the problems are over regionals. I havent heard many problems about Greco and Freestyle because most public schools dont offer that and they have to go to outside clubs for that.
I think most of the problems come from the time of regionals where some public schools are still having middle school wrestling and the wrestlers are wrestling for another school during that time.
I would also think that if that school is WIAA then you might have some code issues also.
Once again I am for outside help and I encourage it from my stand point also. I think the main problem is communication between the clubs and school coaches.
I think your first sentence says it all. Stories from Parents........... ;D
Quote from: 3wrestle on February 12, 2014, 11:01:46 AM
Quote from: ramjet on February 12, 2014, 09:41:17 AM
Quote from: 3wrestle on February 12, 2014, 09:29:33 AM
If I remember correctly someone a page or so back stated he was told by a club coach to write the club down or stop coming.
Then name the CLUB I bet it is a misinterpretation and that may have been for offseason competition not during the High School year, again, without specific names and the right for that Club Coach to defend themselves it is speculation.
Why do people want to put down opportunities that hard working kids want to pursue to get better, because their kid may not want too?
Again the Wrestling Schools do not wave their hand over the wrestler and make them a State Champion it takes allot of work. Work they obviously are NOT getting in the High School Room or they would not pay to get that somewhere else.
What is getting me reeved up is this thread and some folks come across like this; Not all kids can work so hard or want to work so hard to be as good as those who do, so we should make everyone the same level so no one gets their feeling hurt by loosing . In other words the wins and State Titles should just be handed out to everyone. Participation medals................. ::)
It would be another poster that stated info about his club. You would have to ask him if he is willing to name his kids club.
Our son has worked hard for everything he has earned. Each success and failure is shared by his High School coach, his club coaches, his school teammates and his club teammates. It is a team effort. One is not more important than the other. Each adds to our sons wrestling experience.
We originally started taking him to club practice for the variety of practice partners not the coaches. Now as he is older our son has brought technique he has learned at club practice back to the HS room.
Many years ago we had many dad/coaches that put many hours into coaching the kids from the time they were in kindergarten and those same dad/coaches today take pride in all the volunteer hours they put into those kids and enjoy the successes they are having now. We are thankful for the time they volunteered it is back then that our sons love of the sport began.
We are on the same page.
Quote from: picklesnthings on February 12, 2014, 11:11:37 AM
If you are questioning whether wrestling schools are hurting teams - just throwing this out there - what about clubs? i am all for them - but let me explain. Our junior high wrestling season is just starting next week - it is the way our conference is set up. The past five years we have probably only had 10-12 wrestlers (7th/8th grade) each year. I couldn't figure out why so many good athletes were not giving wrestling a try, especially football players. I had at least a dozen kids say - I don't do club and I am already behind the eight ball compared to all the other kids. I talked with many of these kids and explained to them that it doesn't matter if you never tried it before - we will try to put against kids that are at your skill level and I explained that sometimes you will get a good kid but that's ok. I told them stories of how we had kids not start wrestling until their sophomore year in high school and make it to state their senior year. I told them of kids not being able to wrestle themselves out of a paper bag their freshman year and then being a 3 time varsity starter with 20+ wins each year. I have given them a vision - if this group of 30 (yes I got 30 kids to sign up) can stick together, and it is a very athletic group - we can win conference championships, maybe get to team state depending on how hard they work. We have been hurting for numbers in high school for a few years - I went out to change that - and I think I did. I got this quote off a website and I have said it to the kids - "Every time a player fully commits to the team, the team's strength multiplies. Commitment follows trust. All in!" I hope to carry that quote with them the next 5-6 years. Sorry if I got a little off the point but I learned if you want kids out - get out and talk to them and ease some of their fears of trying wrestling.
So you recruit thats good for the sport I am not blowing off the trepidation from some kids that they do not want to lose or get beat up week after week, but the bottom line if they do not put in the time and work to get better than the guy beating them will continue to do so. Its tough these days to get some young men and Women to compete in this tough sport when there are so many alternatives that take less effort and work. That is where the parents, coaches, Club members and team mates along with wrestling schools and Community come in, recruit and work together to convince them with hard work dedication and commitment you can also succeed explain to them the "Good Wrestler" is not good just because they go to a Wrestling School/Club they are good because of the things I mentioned above. Hard Work Dedication and commiment along with team work. Nothing in life comes really easy even those with the most God Given Talent and athletic ability are challenged at some point in their life. Community Pride is huge in the recruitment and sustaining these programs the really successful ones have that sense of pride for participation on the wrestling team...Community support for example in places like Coleman certainly adds to the experience and ability to garner interest but even in that Community I know several wrestlers over the years that work throughout the off season to improve. Same for other very successful programs. So the bottom line is Wrestling Schools and Club Wrestling is good for the Sport how you manage the small things like listing the name is up to you as individual or as you see fit as School Team. This should be talked about openly with your Coaches and Parents heck invite the Local Wrestling School representative to the school for question and answer session be open and ask if you do not ask then you will never know the answer. The ones i mentioned are up front decent people that want the sport to grow it is their best interest thats for sure.
Wrong
Correct......
Glad you agree with me Rammer.
Wrong ;D
But Rammer ...
House?
You didn't get my joke ... read the last post again ... and think ...
I got it but you missed mine.......... ;)