A bit of a take off from a popular thread. With participation numbers down what effect does the team aspect have? Help or hurt? Does the fact that the team dual format is relatively new have anything to do with lower numbers? Since team championships are an addition to the process and seem to be treated as second fiddle
to individual, would it be beneficial to both (individual & team) championships and participation numbers to give them both an equal opportunity?
Looking forward to opinions because I don't have any ;)
Maybe this can go 15 pages
I promise to address the numbers down issue very soon. ;D
The team state tournament has been around a long time. The numbers issue, imo, started a few years after. Coincidence? I think so.
Numbers go down because you don't want to be a part of a team? Pretty selfish of wrestlers if this is the case. I'm the best my coach should only care about me attitude?
Specialization of sports is hurting numbers not a team philosophy in wrestling. Numbers are hurting across communities in sports other than just wrestling too due to kids only playing 1 sport or 2 if we are lucky. Hard part is wrestling still to many isn't on the same level as football, baseball, and basketball in most communities. Go to your wrestling crazy towns where team atmosphere is pushed, numbers aren't down in most of those towns and they still seem to have plenty of individual success.
Bottom, Line, wrestling IS first an Individual sport..plain and simple...
Quote from: maggie on February 20, 2016, 06:46:41 AM
Bottom, Line, wrestling IS first an Individual sport..plain and simple...
Is the largest accomplishment in Milton wrestling history the individuals that have won, places and qualified for state, or is it the miracle of knocking off Rapids? I know when I drive into Wrightstown, Freedom Luxemburg I see TEAM.
I know when you are out on the mat it is you vs the opponent, but before and after and certainly during you are supported by a group of individuals called a team. We are a unique sport in that you can have success as an individual without success as a team but that doesn't mean the individual comes first!
Quote from: maggie on February 20, 2016, 06:46:41 AM
Bottom, Line, wrestling IS first an Individual sport..plain and simple...
Disagree
Quote from: maggie on February 20, 2016, 06:46:41 AM
Bottom, Line, wrestling IS first an Individual sport..plain and simple...
k
That's true. Unless Milton beats Stoughton then its all again. Parents back individuals. Communities back teams.
I may have to borrow those last two sentences at some point NWIS
ha, not taking anything away from the team aspect of the sport, i get that, but i do know it's you against him when it comes right down to it as far as the team goes, it has it's place, but as far as i am concerned, it should never hamper an Individuals right to being a State champion in any way shape of form...maybe do it like they used to, who ever has most earn a trip to the big dance, wins more Team points and is declared the winner after it's all over.....it worked great for many years...ya see, it wasn't broke and they tried to fix it... ;)
It is a unique sport that has both an individual an team aspect. You really cannot have one without the other.
Execute the team Championship series better and you have the best of both worlds.
D3 should be 10 weight classes that would shore up the team aspect as well and increase the quality of wrestling across the board.
Wrestling is, by nature, both an individual and a team sport. Having both types of tournaments simply highlights that aspect, which is not really unique to the sport. Other sports, such as swimming, track & field, and tennis, also have this duality. My kids both loved the concept of being individual competitors who could positively contribute to the success of their respective teams (track and wrestling). On several occasions, they both sacrificed individual interests for the sake of the team. Our daughter had health problems during her senior year that limited the number of races she could run in a day; she chose relays, rather than competing as a high-potential individual, because she felt a strong responsibility to the young team she was mentoring. As a team captain, our son wrestled above his weight class in nearly every dual meet during his senior year, so his younger teammates had a better opportunity to contribute to the team score. Neither of them has ever expressed any remorse about it. Our son is very proud of his team sectional medal. Our daughter is very proud of her state relay team medal, earned during her junior year. They don't see these as lesser accomplishments than their individual medals. In fact, they've both repeatedly stated that the inherent duality in their respective sports was central to their personal appeal.
Quote from: 5799gb on February 19, 2016, 09:08:20 PM
A bit of a take off from a popular thread. With participation numbers down what effect does the team aspect have? Help or hurt? Does the fact that the team dual format is relatively new have anything to do with lower numbers? Since team championships are an addition to the process and seem to be treated as second fiddle
to individual, would it be beneficial to both (individual & team) championships and participation numbers to give them both an equal opportunity?
Looking forward to opinions because I don't have any ;)
Maybe this can go 15 pages
what team format is new? team state?
Quote from: CLC FAN on February 20, 2016, 07:07:08 AM
Quote from: maggie on February 20, 2016, 06:46:41 AM
Bottom, Line, wrestling IS first an Individual sport..plain and simple...
Disagree
I agree with CLC FAN....
I agree with Maggie.
I'm not sure who or which is right, but it is the nature if the beast. An athlete that competes in a sport which recognizes both individual and team accomplishments at the same same time is in a no win(or lose) situation. If he/ she doe the best they can at all times, all will work itself out. The only difference is that all other sports that have this duality, do not not have separate tournaments for for individual recognition( like wrestling does). I'm sure all those other sports have the same concerns.
And... Wrestling is very fortunate to have this luxury. Can you imagine if every high school sport that had this duality would have separate tournaments?
Quote from: WBBs Bro on February 20, 2016, 07:09:02 PM
And... Wrestling is very fortunate to have this luxury. Can you imagine if every high school sport that had this duality would have separate tournaments?
+1
Quote from: maggie on February 20, 2016, 06:46:41 AM
Bottom, Line, wrestling IS first an Individual sport..plain and simple...
Plain and simple, wrestling is both an individual and team sport.
so be it...tell that to the kids who go go the sate meet without there team... ;)
wrestling is an individual sport for 85% of the wrestlers as their team never sees post season matches. I doubt too many people get caught up in being a conference champ for a team unless they finally dethroned a team that always wins it.
Last I checked even at team state only one team member is allowed at a time. 8) Unless we added tag team matches since my last team state appearance...
At the international level what country's historically produce the best FS and Greco wrestlers?
Quote from: jaguarwrestler on February 21, 2016, 05:40:42 PM
wrestling is an individual sport for 85% of the wrestlers as their team never sees post season matches. I doubt too many people get caught up in being a conference champ for a team unless they finally dethroned a team that always wins it.
You would be surprized how many teams think Conference Champ is the biggest deal....... ;D
Quote from: maggie on February 21, 2016, 05:32:59 PM
so be it...tell that to the kids who go go the sate meet without there team... ;)
What do I know, 10 straight years going to Team State as a parent; in my opinion, was a far more fulfilling and exciting sport as a team than as individuals. Not even close...
Certainly, individuals add to team score, but the team, the Coaching decisions, the community support, the undeniable and sincere excitement of an individual that supports a team, maybe even by not getting pinned...is THE best.
Quote from: ramjet on February 21, 2016, 06:39:14 PM
Quote from: jaguarwrestler on February 21, 2016, 05:40:42 PM
wrestling is an individual sport for 85% of the wrestlers as their team never sees post season matches. I doubt too many people get caught up in being a conference champ for a team unless they finally dethroned a team that always wins it.
You would be surprized how many teams think Conference Champ is the biggest deal....... ;D
Well, I know a state champ who never won a conference title. For most kids, winning conference would be a big accomplishment. Nothing wrong with that.
Quote from: maggie on February 21, 2016, 05:32:59 PM
so be it...tell that to the kids who go go the sate meet without there team... ;)
That's just it... No kids make it there without their team. You can get a pitching machine to help you become a great hitter, you can shoot free throws for hours on end and have a great bball shot, you can be the only human left on the planet and become a great golfer or sprinter or thrower... but you cannot become a great wrestler without training with others. It's a requirement of the sport. You need to have more than just yourself or you can't improve. How would you know how to react to a double if you didn't have teammates who hit a double on you in practice?
There may be kids down in Madison who have no other teammates with them that qualified, but that just means that those teams are down to one man left... and believe me, that whole community feels that way, and if he's got his head on straight; so does the kid.
Quote from: CLC FAN on February 21, 2016, 08:04:40 PM
Quote from: maggie on February 21, 2016, 05:32:59 PM
so be it...tell that to the kids who go go the sate meet without there team... ;)
That's just it... No kids make it there without their team. You can get a pitching machine to help you become a great hitter, you can shoot free throws for hours on end and have a great bball shot, you can be the only human left on the planet and become a great golfer or sprinter or thrower... but you cannot become a great wrestler without training with others. It's a requirement of the sport. You need to have more than just yourself or you can't improve. How would you know how to react to a double if you didn't have teammates who hit a double on you in practice?
There may be kids down in Madison who have no other teammates with them that qualified, but that just means that those teams are down to one man left... and believe me, that whole community feels that way, and if he's got his head on straight; so does the kid.
Absolutely! Personally, I've always felt that every kid on the team should practice, as long as any one of them is still competing.
PEOPLE lets look at the fact right in front of us as how we determine the team aspect of todays wrestling.
It is determined at regionals with individual scoring!!!!!!!!! Enough said!!!!!!!!!
Until the WIAA changes the aspect of individual scoring determining the who should compete for the team title, we will still have the individual aspect comes before the team aspect!
Quote from: shouldvewrestled on February 20, 2016, 06:28:18 AM
Numbers go down because you don't want to be a part of a team? Pretty selfish of wrestlers if this is the case. I'm the best my coach should only care about me attitude?
Specialization of sports is hurting numbers not a team philosophy in wrestling. Numbers are hurting across communities in sports other than just wrestling too due to kids only playing 1 sport or 2 if we are lucky. Hard part is wrestling still to many isn't on the same level as football, baseball, and basketball in most communities. Go to your wrestling crazy towns where team atmosphere is pushed, numbers aren't down in most of those towns and they still seem to have plenty of individual success.
I have to agree with you on the second paragraph of your thought. Numbers are down in ALL sports and some of the smaller school really struggle at getting numbers in any giving sport.
Now to the first paragraph of your sentence, numbers do go down and casts a shadow when you have kids leaving one district to go soley to wrestle or play sports in another district. Sure the team they go to isnt going to hurt only help but the team they left is left without certain kids that I am sure the coaches were counting on to help build their respective programs.
Wouldnt you say that is it a ME first additude having kids open enroll to another district for just sports? And is it a team additude for that school to except those open enrolled when you have devolped kids for many years only to have their spot taken by an open enrolled kid for that sport?
3 words.
Junior high inclusion
Anyone ever been to a dual or tournament and hear "what's he doing on the bottom" or how about "get up get up get up"? Now why on earth would anyone with knowledge and experience with wrestling do that? They don't. They are smiling to themselves or ignoring it or moving so that it isn't right in their ear.
An individual can go to just about any other sporting event and never sound so ignorant because of all their previous exposure to it. They have been watching them on tv or listening to family members and coworkers, attending professional events with friends. The majority of our population knows more about Bruce Jenner than wrestling. How many people attend individual state this weekend without having a direct connection to the event in either the past or present? I suspect the number is low.
To those of you that think it's all about the individual champ, that somehow our "passions" future rests in the hands of promoting an individuals accomplishments, you are very wrong. We will continue to die.
How do Coleman,Ellsworth and Rapids come up with these good teams time after time? Do half of their community's come to the kohl center to watch a couple of individuals wrestle at state? Not likely, but team state is entirely different. Everyone their will be on the edge of their seats 14 times per dual. That type
of promotion is priceless and can only be replicated at a dual with the rival school nearby.
IMO the only way to expand our wrestling numbers is to promote the team. Not everyone is capable of earning a spot at in divdual state but they do have a spot on a team. There cant be many schools with the ability to turn kids away because of high enrollment right? There are schools in WI that have increasing numbers in the room. How can that be? All we read about is the opposite ,but it's true. That kind of success has not been the result of promoting or promising an individual championship. It has come from promoting participation by coaches, teachers and those in their community with the same passion we have. It would be a pretty hard sell without others in the room. It's like the "field of dreams" if you build it they will come "championships".
To those involved in our youth programs, we have to protect the kids we have out. The studs and naturals are going to excell period. What we have to worry about with them is burn out, right. Does holding them back from wrestling to their full potential prior to high school really hurt them? Shouldn't we want them always hungry
for more? Is this part of the reason college coaches want multi sport athletes? Their recruit Is only now choosing to concentrate on his passion full time. I know of parents not letting their boys participate in youth state until 7th grade and it has worked out really well. The kids that don't excel are just as important. We need them in the room, hopefully identifying themselves as a wrestler. We have to keep in mind that the difference between wrestling and other sports is that "it is not a game" and that makes it difficult for youth to enjoy. Bad experiences in youth wrestling are killers. I would rather have a child learn slow, have fun and still be around in middle school then win youth state and every weekend during high school be ice fishing. Ice fishing is better when you are old and can talk about the glory days. Few of the life lessons learned from wrestling are realized at 10yrs. Except the negative ones.
Obviously I had more to say than I thought but I wish some people on here would wake up. If we are trying to expand our numbers, promoting individual state over team state is the wrong approach. It eliminates to many people. Promoting wrestling as a team sport Will increase numbers. I don't believe any of the wrestlers i have been around that won a team title would say their individual title was worth more.
Do they chant USA at international events?
:)+1
What other High School sport has 14 slots to fill for starters?
11-football
Except the 8-man football think about that
Why are we and the WIAA so blind to the participation issue?
D3 want to promote this as team sport cut it to 10 weight classes.
D3 Give options to go to 10 weight classes at the conference level.
Quote from: littleguy301 on February 21, 2016, 09:23:31 PM
Quote from: shouldvewrestled on February 20, 2016, 06:28:18 AM
Numbers go down because you don't want to be a part of a team? Pretty selfish of wrestlers if this is the case. I'm the best my coach should only care about me attitude?
Specialization of sports is hurting numbers not a team philosophy in wrestling. Numbers are hurting across communities in sports other than just wrestling too due to kids only playing 1 sport or 2 if we are lucky. Hard part is wrestling still to many isn't on the same level as football, baseball, and basketball in most communities. Go to your wrestling crazy towns where team atmosphere is pushed, numbers aren't down in most of those towns and they still seem to have plenty of individual success.
I have to agree with you on the second paragraph of your thought. Numbers are down in ALL sports and some of the smaller school really struggle at getting numbers in any giving sport.
Now to the first paragraph of your sentence, numbers do go down and casts a shadow when you have kids leaving one district to go soley to wrestle or play sports in another district. Sure the team they go to isnt going to hurt only help but the team they left is left without certain kids that I am sure the coaches were counting on to help build their respective programs.
Wouldnt you say that is it a ME first additude having kids open enroll to another district for just sports? And is it a team additude for that school to except those open enrolled when you have devolped kids for many years only to have their spot taken by an open enrolled kid for that sport?
The first part of my post was in reference to the original post saying numbers are going down because of team wrestling. The only way numbers go down because a coach puts a team before indivduals is if there is that mindset of "they should put me first, I'm their best." Then elite level kids quit and we don't see that as often as our average to below average kids hanging it up.
As to open enrollment I would agree with your point. Open enrollment promotes moving schools for athletics purposes whether people want to admit to it or not. I would even say it will happen in sports such as wrestling more because we are getting closer to the "have's and have nots." If I'm really good and have high aspirations for even after high school in wrestling, but live in a town where wrestling is not big, only 14 kids out total, do not get exposed to higher level competition. Open enrolling is an enticing option and I think more and more kids will do it where they go to a team that can challenge them in the room daily and gets into tougher competition type tournaments.
I know the main kid you are talking about here personally and know their decision is a hot topic in our town. By that I mean the town I live in and where he open enrolled out of. It hurt our wrestling, football, even track if that is what he would have chose to do in the spring again. Do I agree with it, as a fan of sports no. Do I understand it, fully.
Back to the original question. In my opinion to get away from the haves and have nots, team aspect has to be emphasized. As shown on here many disagree with me. If wrestling were huge in the town I live in currently, the kid in question would not have open enrolled I believe.
you will never get a team aspect as long as it is acpetable for kids to move out of one district for sports alone. That is strictly an individual move and to say it is for a better team, well I have a hard time taking that one with out choking.
Do I get it, sure I do. Come out and say to the district your leaving it is about me. I would be fine with that.
Do I support that kid we talk about, yes I do. good kid, good family. But sorry I am not talking about just one kid I am talking about several. When you have one or 2 but when you have several sounds more like building a team by recruiting. Not all schools are on that playing field.
Just an interesting note. Of the 16 sectionals held on saturday, the highest scoring team in the individual sectional tournament was also the team representing that sectional at team state all but one sectional. Waterford was the high scoring team over Mukwanago in their sectional. Every other one was won by the same team going to team state.
Quote from: ramjet on February 22, 2016, 08:25:18 AM
What other High School sport has 14 slots to fill for starters?
11-football
Except the 8-man football think about that
Why are we and the WIAA so blind to the participation issue?
D3 want to promote this as team sport cut it to 10 weight classes.
D3 Give options to go to 10 weight classes at the conference level.
Don't worry Ram, I've got the data ready... I'll wait until after team state.
Quote from: littleguy301 on February 22, 2016, 11:38:14 AM
you will never get a team aspect as long as it is acpetable for kids to move out of one district for sports alone. That is strictly an individual move and to say it is for a better team, well I have a hard time taking that one with out choking.
Do I get it, sure I do. Come out and say to the district your leaving it is about me. I would be fine with that.
Do I support that kid we talk about, yes I do. good kid, good family. But sorry I am not talking about just one kid I am talking about several. When you have one or 2 but when you have several sounds more like building a team by recruiting. Not all schools are on that playing field.
Wouldn't say never, teams are growing out in the Eastern part of the state pushing team atmosphere, and we currently allow open enrollment.
LG I agree with you it is bad for wrestling and sports in general. But you think a school is going to deny them in todays school economic picture? Unless they have in house reasons like overcrowding schools will take kids. WIAA or state have to police open enrollment more, get rid of it, or accept these situations will happen. Coaches do too and fight harder to keep these kids. It is an uphill battle with too many weight classes, other sports more popular, 1 sport athletes, video games, etc. Thing is every town has these same battles and all you can do is keep doing your best to get kids out and keep them. Agree when best leave it's a sucker punch to the gut but if not against rules what are you supposed to do, cry about it or work with what you have? We lost our starting varsity CB when he left to wrestle, we were not happy but we coached up our other kids and made due and almost made the playoffs. He's still a great kid and want to see him do well, easier for me he wrestles for my hometown, but most here are over it and want to see him succeed to.
You can think they recruited all you want, it didn't happen that way unless multiple people have lied directly to my face.
Tried reading the whole thread, but skimmed some of it. Sorry, if this repetitious. Adding three points:
1. My daughter almost couldn't play Freshman basketball this year, because the school had a hard time fielding a freshman team. Almost half the games were canceled, because the other schools couldn't field freshman teams either. I'm not sure it's JUST a wrestling thing.
2. The wrestlers I know really like individual state, and they've been there. I've heard them say they prefer team state. They're crazy about having all hands on deck, and fighting for the pride of their team, school and community.
3. This is a trick question. There is no right answer, there are only the conclusions we draw from our unique experience. Whether a person values team over individual state depends on the their personality, influence, program, school etc.
Still...it's a good question, and the debate is enjoyable to read.
Agreed no right answer as truly both are important but one philosophy leads to success in both areas, they other way can but is harder IMO.
We live in a current me me me sports world with sportscenter, fantasy sports, recruiting, even look at NFL combine which all about individual stats.
Biggest thing is do we use that as excuses to push individualization or put in the work to make sure the team, your community, your friends matter just as much? Wrestling teaches many great individual values why can't it also teach teamwork and putting others before yourself?
"Biggest thing is do we use that as excuses to push individualization or put in the work to make sure the team, your community, your friends matter just as much? Wrestling teaches many great individual values why can't it also teach teamwork and putting others before yourself?"
Are you going to vote for Bernie????????????
Quote from: Mack on February 22, 2016, 01:13:46 PM
Tried reading the whole thread, but skimmed some of it. Sorry, if this repetitious. Adding three points:
1. My daughter almost couldn't play Freshman basketball this year, because the school had a hard time fielding a freshman team. Almost half the games were canceled, because the other schools couldn't field freshman teams either. I'm not sure it's JUST a wrestling thing.
2. The wrestlers I know really like individual state, and they've been there. I've heard them say they prefer team state. They're crazy about having all hands on deck, and fighting for the pride of their team, school and community.
3. This is a trick question. There is not right answer, there are only the conclusions we draw from our unique experience. Whether a person values team over individual state depends on the their personality, influence, program, school etc.
Still...it's a good question, and the debate is enjoyable to read.
1. I see the same thing, and it's not a small high school that my kids will go to. 1000 kids should be able to field a few teams. They had a varsity girls team and would have to shuffle some varsity kids down to just field a reserve team. No JV, no freshman. I have some thoughts, but it's a rant for another day.
2. Individual state can be a lonely place if you are by yourself. We've qualified one kid 4 of the last 7 years. With the team, there's some security there. I don't think it is coincidence that we are more successful when we have multiple kids going.
Quote from: Mack on February 22, 2016, 01:13:46 PM
Tried reading the whole thread, but skimmed some of it. Sorry, if this repetitious. Adding three points:
1. My daughter almost couldn't play Freshman basketball this year, because the school had a hard time fielding a freshman team. Almost half the games were canceled, because the other schools couldn't field freshman teams either. I'm not sure it's JUST a wrestling thing.
2. The wrestlers I know really like individual state, and they've been there. I've heard them say they prefer team state. They're crazy about having all hands on deck, and fighting for the pride of their team, school and community.
3. This is a trick question. There is not right answer, there are only the conclusions we draw from our unique experience. Whether a person values team over individual state depends on the their personality, influence, program, school etc.
Still...it's a good question, and the debate is enjoyable to read.
Growing up in a school where we send 1-3 to ind. state but never rally had the chance as a team, I gotta say, I love the team aspect. It's the only chance many a work horse, who might not get much love on an ind. basis can be the hero of the day. better yet, the group can pleak; and have that day they'll talk about at their 50th class reunion.
Quote from: Ghetto on February 22, 2016, 01:37:58 PM
Quote from: Mack on February 22, 2016, 01:13:46 PM
Tried reading the whole thread, but skimmed some of it. Sorry, if this repetitious. Adding three points:
1. My daughter almost couldn't play Freshman basketball this year, because the school had a hard time fielding a freshman team. Almost half the games were canceled, because the other schools couldn't field freshman teams either. I'm not sure it's JUST a wrestling thing.
2. The wrestlers I know really like individual state, and they've been there. I've heard them say they prefer team state. They're crazy about having all hands on deck, and fighting for the pride of their team, school and community.
3. This is a trick question. There is not right answer, there are only the conclusions we draw from our unique experience. Whether a person values team over individual state depends on the their personality, influence, program, school etc.
Still...it's a good question, and the debate is enjoyable to read.
1. I see the same thing, and it's not a small high school that my kids will go to. 1000 kids should be able to field a few teams. They had a varsity girls team and would have to shuffle some varsity kids down to just field a reserve team. No JV, no freshman. I have some thoughts, but it's a rant for another day.
2. Individual state can be a lonely place if you are by yourself. We've qualified one kid 4 of the last 7 years. With the team, there's some security there. I don't think it is coincidence that we are more successful when we have multiple kids going.
I agree with #2 for sure my son went through that.
Quote from: Mack on February 22, 2016, 01:13:46 PM
Tried reading the whole thread, but skimmed some of it. Sorry, if this repetitious. Adding three points:
1. My daughter almost couldn't play Freshman basketball this year, because the school had a hard time fielding a freshman team. Almost half the games were canceled, because the other schools couldn't field freshman teams either. I'm not sure it's JUST a wrestling thing.
2. The wrestlers I know really like individual state, and they've been there. I've heard them say they prefer team state. They're crazy about having all hands on deck, and fighting for the pride of their team, school and community.
3. This is a trick question. There is no right answer, there are only the conclusions we draw from our unique experience. Whether a person values team over individual state depends on the their personality, influence, program, school etc.
Still...it's a good question, and the debate is enjoyable to read.
#1 team in NE Wisconsin girls basketball, Bayport, doesn't have a freshman team and probably 900 girls in the school. IMO you can thank club hoops 3-8th grade burning kids out and club volleyball stealing kids, specialization.
Here's the thing. . .none of you are viewing this subject clearly! ???
President Obama needs to give huge tax cuts to the family dairy farmer 75 cows or less. . .then the Pope needs to encourage proliferation of these family dairy farmers. Result is we get these families generating 10 or 12 kids (with half being boys) and the problem is solved.
Gee you guys need to start thinking outside the box. . .LOL
Quote from: bigoil on February 22, 2016, 02:13:59 PM
Quote from: Mack on February 22, 2016, 01:13:46 PM
Tried reading the whole thread, but skimmed some of it. Sorry, if this repetitious. Adding three points:
1. My daughter almost couldn't play Freshman basketball this year, because the school had a hard time fielding a freshman team. Almost half the games were canceled, because the other schools couldn't field freshman teams either. I'm not sure it's JUST a wrestling thing.
2. The wrestlers I know really like individual state, and they've been there. I've heard them say they prefer team state. They're crazy about having all hands on deck, and fighting for the pride of their team, school and community.
3. This is a trick question. There is no right answer, there are only the conclusions we draw from our unique experience. Whether a person values team over individual state depends on the their personality, influence, program, school etc.
Still...it's a good question, and the debate is enjoyable to read.
#1 team in NE Wisconsin girls basketball, Bayport, doesn't have a freshman team and probably 900 girls in the school. IMO you can thank club hoops 3-8th grade burning kids out and club volleyball stealing kids, specialization.
Most schools have added the number of sports they offer, while their enrollment has declined. They don't dare cut any of the programs though, because kids will open enroll somewhere that offers that sport.
Quote from: MNbadger on February 22, 2016, 01:32:44 PM
"Biggest thing is do we use that as excuses to push individualization or put in the work to make sure the team, your community, your friends matter just as much? Wrestling teaches many great individual values why can't it also teach teamwork and putting others before yourself?"
Are you going to vote for Bernie????????????
Take it you're a Trump guy then. Didn't know teaching to care about others was a bad thing? :o If you call coaching all kids just as hard as your studs and putting team accomplishments ahead of individual, socialism; maybe I would vote for wrestling Bernie.
Let me take another stab at this;
Open enrollment is not the issue although it does shore up good programs.
Team is important but all kids at least want to have hope they can compete. Wrestling is not sport that is kind to underachieving on an individual basis. You can make up some of that with team success. The team aspect comes inot play this way; Iron sharpens Iron.
Now back to the decline enrollment most other sports are adjusting however from the team aspect wrestling is not. The argument against cutting weight classes is it takes away opportunity. Well come on now Golf is not all that tough like wrestling so maybe to increase participation numbers in Golf we should put in 14 weight classes so more kids can qualify for state? Yea sounds crazy but that is the argument for not adjusting to the declining enrollment numbers.
I will use the NLC D3 school struggling mightily to put even 10 kids on the mat. But they come allot closer to 10 than 14 as do most D2-D3 schools do. Ghetto will post his annual numbers to show this I bet I am correct. If not I will admit it.
Now if they cut back on weight classes and take 4 kids from each Sectional the net effect will be close yes some will sit home. Guess what some do now.
Teams with smaller numbers become more competitive less opportunity to FF to a team win. Teams that have close competitive matches draw more folks and the interest increases the community involvement. That garners interest from the kids to part of it. Community fair weather fans want wins if they know that the 8 wrestlers they have will never win a dual because of the potential for FF they will not come to watch. If they feel that the team has chance and that team because FF are less significant with regards to the score they will cheer the kids on. That's reality but FF ruin the team aspect of this sport there is absolutely no question about that. I saw at least 3 duals that would have been close competitive matches if the opportunity for FF was removed because of open weights.
Quote from: shouldvewrestled on February 22, 2016, 03:18:14 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on February 22, 2016, 01:32:44 PM
"Biggest thing is do we use that as excuses to push individualization or put in the work to make sure the team, your community, your friends matter just as much? Wrestling teaches many great individual values why can't it also teach teamwork and putting others before yourself?"
Are you going to vote for Bernie????????????
Take it you're a Trump guy then. Didn't know teaching to care about others was a bad thing? :o If you call coaching all kids just as hard as your studs and putting team accomplishments ahead of individual, socialism; maybe I would vote for wrestling Bernie.
No, I am not a Trump guy, far from it. I m a Bernie guy. I was jabbing at the righties on here that constantly are leading the charge for being independent and hating any thing they see as "socialism". Team sports are incredibly "socialist" (by their definition). Contadictory positioning to say the least.
I have been over looking one aspect of the team vs individual
Some schools dont even have enough kids in the room to fill all 14 weight classes so how in the world does a coach promote a team aspect when going into a meet they are giving up 2-4 forfeits. Better hope those kids that are going to wrestle can make up 12 to 24 points in matches wrestled!!!!
I've seen them emphasize the head to head match ups and celebrate those. The goal is to win the head to head matches. I know it stinks but when you have that situation you have to make the most of it.
Quote from: MarkK on February 22, 2016, 04:07:19 PM
I've seen them emphasize the head to head match ups and celebrate those. The goal is to win the head to head matches. I know it stinks but when you have that situation you have to make the most of it.
yes you do but can you build that team up to think they are going to win.
You answered my question, you work on the individual aspect because you really cannt work on the team!!!!!
It's a head game at this point Littleguy. The team aspect has to be more about the camaraderie at that point rather than winning a dual. Especially when it is mathematically impossible. I don't think you ever should de-emphasize the team aspect. Not that I think you are saying that. But even the single competitor needs a teammate to get better. I'm always amazed how a great individual will make all those around him/her on the team better.
Quote from: MNbadger on February 22, 2016, 04:05:28 PM
Quote from: shouldvewrestled on February 22, 2016, 03:18:14 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on February 22, 2016, 01:32:44 PM
"Biggest thing is do we use that as excuses to push individualization or put in the work to make sure the team, your community, your friends matter just as much? Wrestling teaches many great individual values why can't it also teach teamwork and putting others before yourself?"
Are you going to vote for Bernie????????????
Take it you're a Trump guy then. Didn't know teaching to care about others was a bad thing? :o If you call coaching all kids just as hard as your studs and putting team accomplishments ahead of individual, socialism; maybe I would vote for wrestling Bernie.
No, I am not a Trump guy, far from it. I m a Bernie guy. I was jabbing at the righties on here that constantly are leading the charge for being independent and hating any thing they see as "socialism". Team sports are incredibly "socialist" (by their definition). Contadictory positioning to say the least.
Gotcha.
Quote from: MarkK on February 22, 2016, 04:19:02 PM
It's a head game at this point Littleguy. The team aspect has to be more about the camaraderie at that point rather than winning a dual. Especially when it is mathematically impossible. I don't think you ever should de-emphasize the team aspect. Not that I think you are saying that. But even the single competitor needs a teammate to get better. I'm always amazed how a great individual will make all those around him/her on the team better.
MarkK you are wrong winning the dual is paramount to Team success very few if any teams go head to head if they can FF or pick up FF to win the dual. Less weight classes removes that potential making the dual more significant. Yes a good individual can make a team better or the kids just run from hi or her in practice. It happens both ways. Not sure what you are thinking or getting at here. Bottom line is the more quality guys in the room the better they all get. But for Team to be important winning is paramount. Camaraderie is always better win you win!!!!!!!!!
When you constantly loose because of FF and because teams can run from matches to get that win its loose loose for wrestling.
Quote from: shouldvewrestled on February 22, 2016, 04:39:33 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on February 22, 2016, 04:05:28 PM
Quote from: shouldvewrestled on February 22, 2016, 03:18:14 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on February 22, 2016, 01:32:44 PM
"Biggest thing is do we use that as excuses to push individualization or put in the work to make sure the team, your community, your friends matter just as much? Wrestling teaches many great individual values why can't it also teach teamwork and putting others before yourself?"
Are you going to vote for Bernie????????????
Take it you're a Trump guy then. Didn't know teaching to care about others was a bad thing? :o If you call coaching all kids just as hard as your studs and putting team accomplishments ahead of individual, socialism; maybe I would vote for wrestling Bernie.
No, I am not a Trump guy, far from it. I m a Bernie guy. I was jabbing at the righties on here that constantly are leading the charge for being independent and hating any thing they see as "socialism". Team sports are incredibly "socialist" (by their definition). Contadictory positioning to say the least.
Gotcha.
Not a "gotcha" at all. Just facts.
Not saying I got you, saying I understand what you meant.
Sorry... gotcha? :)
Little guy let's rewind 25 yrs ago and have your opinion of the team aspect in 1991......
Not sure what your getting at. That was the last year of individual team scoring or has my memory failed on the year?