Filling Weight Classes-The 2021-22 Data

[1Iota]

I teach and coach in a large metro/suburban district.  When I started in the late eighties my high school dressed 110 football players for each game.  This was only 10th-12th grade.  Each of the junior highs had 50 ninth graders in the respective teams.(we are now a 9-12 school). This past season we finished with less than FIFTY players 9-12.  We have dropped middle school sports but three years ago before we did so, the middle school I was at could not get enough girls out to field a middle school basketball team.
Participation is down in everything in many areas.
I understand that some might see this as a reason for retraction.  I do not.  I agree with The Pope.
I have had years where we were at the top and years where we forfeited four and five weights.  I have never seen the positives some claim for retraction.  I say this being in the most dual obsessed state there is. 
Given my druthers I would opt to get out of our conference all together.  I would schedule a single dual once a week with teams of our ilk and participate in individual tournaments each Saturday.  I schedule according to my team needs now as well.
It is a mistake to retract and it has been a mistake to raise the starting weight as we have done repeatedly over time.

I think this is a point that needs to be understood.  Participation is down in all of the traditional sports for a variety of reasons.  More kids are specializing today, where as 30 years ago many if not most of them would have been multi sport athletes.  You also have more opportunities being offered, such as ski team, La Crosse, Rugby, ect.   This means that every sport is fighting for  smaller pool of kids by the time they are HS age. 

I personally believe that the best option would be a 10 team Dual team and a 14 team tournament team. 

[DocWrestling]

I do think duals would be pretty exciting with 10 weight classes like these

115, 125, 135, 143, 152, 162, 172, 185, 200, 285

Lots of teams could fill those weight classes with everyone wrestling up and nobody would know what weight class a lot of guys would wrestle.    Likely could be great JV duals also.  Just need to change the rules on weigh ins so guys could weigh more on Thursday and still wrestle lower on Saturday with losing more than a lb in 2 days.  Maybe switch to morning weigh-ins for duals don't count duals on weight descent plans.

[NoFooForU]

"Facts are duals are what get the most people coming into the gym and watching wrestling. Hardcore fans will travel to tournaments, but it won't give exposure to the sport like home duals will. "

Does the WIAA dual tournament draw more fans than the individual tournament?

Is the WIAA tournament in your home school gym? Sorry man, but you certainly knew before posing that question that it wasn't relevant to the scope of the problem.

a few people posting weight class participants means that there's a problem?  Its only being discussed because some folks think its a problem.  But, it's not a problem, it's just the situation.  Problem implies there is something wrong, I don't see anything wrong.  It's just the world we live in.

[Numbers]

"Facts are duals are what get the most people coming into the gym and watching wrestling. Hardcore fans will travel to tournaments, but it won't give exposure to the sport like home duals will. "

Does the WIAA dual tournament draw more fans than the individual tournament?

Is the WIAA tournament in your home school gym? Sorry man, but you certainly knew before posing that question that it wasn't relevant to the scope of the problem.

a few people posting weight class participants means that there's a problem?  Its only being discussed because some folks think its a problem.  But, it's not a problem, it's just the situation.  Problem implies there is something wrong, I don't see anything wrong.  It's just the world we live in.

High school competitions with 14 weights that do not even last 30 minutes.  Many wrestlers watching/making weight for a forfeit.  JV wrestlers on Varsity to fill spots because there must be 14 contested weights you know.  (The number of varsity entries are not all varsity competitive.)

PA moved from 14 to 13 but does that state know anything about wrestling?  People who want to ignore problems will do just that.  Just deal with the status quo because change might take leadership and effort and many do not care that much about the sport of wrestling today (much less a few years from now.)

14 weights being too many is a national issue.  Why do you think the option for states to move to 13 or 12 high school weights was approved by the national body?

[MNbadger]

We tried the 12 and 13 weight option and I don't know that anyone ever used it.

[Ghetto]

"Facts are duals are what get the most people coming into the gym and watching wrestling. Hardcore fans will travel to tournaments, but it won't give exposure to the sport like home duals will. "

Does the WIAA dual tournament draw more fans than the individual tournament?

I'm far too lazy to look it up, but I'm gonna guess there were 200 teams represented at 2020 individual state vs 16. Of course there was higher attendance.

I'm in the camp that says competitive duals help build programs.

[MNbadger]

Yep.  And the reality is that our fan base whether in dual form or individual is largely the families of the wrestlers themselves.  My point is that the fans don't really drive wrestling, budgeting, or anything about it other than more individuals wrestling will equal more fans. Cutting weights will simply cut fans as well.

"Facts are duals are what get the most people coming into the gym and watching wrestling. Hardcore fans will travel to tournaments, but it won't give exposure to the sport like home duals will. "

Does the WIAA dual tournament draw more fans than the individual tournament?

I'm far too lazy to look it up, but I'm gonna guess there were 200 teams represented at 2020 individual state vs 16. Of course there was higher attendance.

I'm in the camp that says competitive duals help build programs.

[Handles II]

How does that equate? Since you said it is largely family members, won't those same family members come and watch their child wrestle if there are 12 weights rather than 14? Won't they watch JV rather than Varsity if that's the case?  Duals are what bring in fans from the community that won't attend tournaments. Duals will bring in members of the student body that won't go to tournaments on Saturdays. Duals will very often have administrators and school board members there who wouldn't otherwise attend wrestling at all.  When it's a 30 minute pre-determined dual with one JV match and 7 forfeits, that's simply not a good look and the people who are in charge of the budget remember it. Don't believe it? Start asking teams that were cut how some of the decisions were made.

Yep.  And the reality is that our fan base whether in dual form or individual is largely the families of the wrestlers themselves.  My point is that the fans don't really drive wrestling, budgeting, or anything about it other than more individuals wrestling will equal more fans. Cutting weights will simply cut fans as well.

"Facts are duals are what get the most people coming into the gym and watching wrestling. Hardcore fans will travel to tournaments, but it won't give exposure to the sport like home duals will. "

Does the WIAA dual tournament draw more fans than the individual tournament?

I'm far too lazy to look it up, but I'm gonna guess there were 200 teams represented at 2020 individual state vs 16. Of course there was higher attendance.

I'm in the camp that says competitive duals help build programs.

[wrastle63]

How does that equate? Since you said it is largely family members, won't those same family members come and watch their child wrestle if there are 12 weights rather than 14? Won't they watch JV rather than Varsity if that's the case?  Duals are what bring in fans from the community that won't attend tournaments. Duals will bring in members of the student body that won't go to tournaments on Saturdays. Duals will very often have administrators and school board members there who wouldn't otherwise attend wrestling at all.  When it's a 30 minute pre-determined dual with one JV match and 7 forfeits, that's simply not a good look and the people who are in charge of the budget remember it. Don't believe it? Start asking teams that were cut how some of the decisions were made.

Yep.  And the reality is that our fan base whether in dual form or individual is largely the families of the wrestlers themselves.  My point is that the fans don't really drive wrestling, budgeting, or anything about it other than more individuals wrestling will equal more fans. Cutting weights will simply cut fans as well.

"Facts are duals are what get the most people coming into the gym and watching wrestling. Hardcore fans will travel to tournaments, but it won't give exposure to the sport like home duals will. "

Does the WIAA dual tournament draw more fans than the individual tournament?

I'm far too lazy to look it up, but I'm gonna guess there were 200 teams represented at 2020 individual state vs 16. Of course there was higher attendance.

I'm in the camp that says competitive duals help build programs.

So we are going to switch to a 30 minute predetermined dual with one JV match and 3 forfeits. That will make our sport so much better. Does that change the product at all? It is the same teams and wrestlers. Teams with small numbers need to bump wrestlers up to get matches in a dual scenario where possible. A match is better than a forfeit. You think this is a solution, but doesn't change the product. The only way to make the product better is the coach, alumni, parents, etc getting kids out for the sport, building a solid feeder program whether that is middle school and/or youth, positive coaching so kids enjoy the sport, and putting in the work that it requires to have a successful program.

[MNbadger]

Ghetto, I know you are passionate about this.  We disagree.  There are places that have gym-filling rivalries but in reality they are few and far between (and always have been). 
I don't want to waste time posting the CDC numbers that show all the student athletes we are not recruiting. With retraction comes raising the starting weight class.  I'll keep recruiting all the kids I can(and I am not feeling particularly successful of late....).  I actually have plenty of 106 pounders.  We can't get big kids.  The ones we have are quite honestly overweight.  I know this is a bit off the issue of fewer weight classes but it is related.  The kids I have in the room work hard, love the sport, are getting better, and becoming better people.  They know exactly what we are as a team. If we wrestle ten out of fourteen matches and win seven, we consider it a win regardless of technically losing the dual score.   Wrestling is at it's heart an individual sport.  The dual thing is nice when it works out but not the be all and end all by any means.  And to be clear, my kids felt the same when we were winning all but one or two duals each season.  In my opinion (and most the kids I have coached throughout my life) having more weight class opportunities far outweighs the dual stuff.  My 106 pounders are already small for their weight and are in effect "wrestling up".  Yes, they can do it but their rate of success in a brutal conference and section can be off-putting for them.  This is another factor in recruiting and retaining wrestlers.  Retraction will make this worse in my opinion.

[wrastle63]

Ghetto, I know you are passionate about this.  We disagree.  There are places that have gym-filling rivalries but in reality they are few and far between (and always have been). 
I don't want to waste time posting the CDC numbers that show all the student athletes we are not recruiting. With retraction comes raising the starting weight class.  I'll keep recruiting all the kids I can(and I am not feeling particularly successful of late....).  I actually have plenty of 106 pounders.  We can't get big kids.  The ones we have are quite honestly overweight.  I know this is a bit off the issue of fewer weight classes but it is related.  The kids I have in the room work hard, love the sport, are getting better, and becoming better people.  They know exactly what we are as a team. If we wrestle ten out of fourteen matches and win seven, we consider it a win regardless of technically losing the dual score.   Wrestling is at it's heart an individual sport.  The dual thing is nice when it works out but not the be all and end all by any means.  And to be clear, my kids felt the same when we were winning all but one or two duals each season.  In my opinion (and most the kids I have coached throughout my life) having more weight class opportunities far outweighs the dual stuff.  My 106 pounders are already small for their weight and are in effect "wrestling up".  Yes, they can do it but their rate of success in a brutal conference and section can be off-putting for them.  This is another factor in recruiting and retaining wrestlers.  Retraction will make this worse in my opinion.

Nailed it. Also the teams who want to focus on duals and have team state aspirations can schedule duals, tri meets, and dual tournaments. The teams with 7 kids can schedule more tournaments now with the 7 and 7 rule being done. This gives coaches the opportunity to schedule based on their team. Also agree that wrestling is much more of an individual sport than team sport.

[dman]

Do we ever want to talk about the real problem??  Changing weight classes isn't going to fix any problem, but rather temporarily mask the real issue.  Which is the change in our society and parenting and thus, our kids interests have changed.  To me we need to focus on parents and how to market our sport better.  We need to sell the parents...where the parents go the kids will go.  How do we "generate" the traditions some schools have around wrestling?  You do that by getting to the parents and how our sport is viewed...IMHO.

[MNbadger]

You are on point but I don't see a "problem".  Wrestling is very difficult.  It is difficult in the short term(competing in an individual match) and the long term(it really is a commitment/life choice rather than a sport).  You are correct in that there are less and less people willing/wanting to do this.  As I mentioned, other sports are seeing some of this. 
I just had a kid recently come to one practice.  He was pretty lean, athletic, and strong. For a beginner he was quite a natural.  I was very pro-active explaining how he would have to work gradually into the conditioning aspect. The next day he told my assistant that though he liked wrestling and thought it was fun, he did not like the conditioning.  Well, I guess we could quit doing conditioning but this then dooms them to failure in competition.  Basically he self-selected out of the sport he barely tried.  He can play football which in comparison is devoid of the conditioning component. 
I see the same thing in our basketball program.  Talented players choose Community Rec BB over high school ball.  They can't take practicing every day and being asked to be in good c-v shape.   
I don't see the value in lamenting the societal reasons that may or may not be responsible for any of this.  Wrestling is what it is and always has been.  What we do is good, we use it in our daily lives.  We will always try to spread the word and we always have.  I have spent a life time doing the same with education.  Some choose to buy, others don't.  I don't beat myself up about it anymore whether in education or coaching athletics.  You can't push a rope............
I had 21 kids in the room last night.  Most of them work like dogs.  Some are competitive in a brutal conference and section.  Others are rank beginners.  Some may never be great wrestlers.  I keep selling.   The number of weight classes is important to keep for those of different sizes.  Forfeits in duals mean nothing to the 21 kids I have.  We wrestled in an individual tournament on Saturday and they were the ones bringing up where we improved, where we needed work, etc. 

[DocWrestling]

Maybe 8 years ago a basketball coach told me that I could pick a team from all the kids in the high school that were not out for basketball and without coaching my team would likely beat his team.  So many good players that no longer played due to laziness or playing other sports.  He was honest that if it was about winning he would win more games by maybe practicing once per week because then more kids would come out for team.

I now see that in a lot of wrestling programs.  So many good wrestlers that are not wrestling and may or may not be doing other sports.

Youth sports still have a lot of participation but those numbers are also declining but much less.

Youth sports have fewer practices and more games.  High school sports have more practices and less games.  Is that the reason kids quit?  If so which one should change their format?

Would high school wrestling have more wrestlers if we practiced 1-2x/week.  Would that change what wrestlers get out of the sport in terms of fun and life lessons.  Would your wrestlers lose that many more matches with fewer or shorter practices?

I come from the old school pride where wrestling was the toughest sport and we liked knowing that.   It has changed as all sports have but do they need to change more?

[MNbadger]

Doc, I get your point.  The problem would be that as I mentioned, practicing 2 times per week and backing off on conditioning dooms them to failure.  We are experiencing a lessening of participants interested in ours(and other) sports.  The Community Rec players would not beat our basketball team or they would be on it.  They might have more potential/talent but simply based on conditioning our high school team would kill them.  Additionally, they are not willing to practice technique enough to be there.
I see it is soccer as well.  We have lots of diversity in our district and tons of kids who love soccer.  they can handle the ball, good skills but they don't participate in club soccer(much of it due to economics)so even though they have skills and such, they get killed by teams that have learned to play soccer in club as a team over the years.  This is even if they are on different teams/clubs in the summer.
I guess what you are describing is intramurals and that is an option.