As we move towards State, this question always comes to mind. Why does wisconsin use the teams with the top individual score from each region dual the other individual region champ for a trip to team state?
While having a good dual team and a good individual team MAY coincide, a team with 5 studs and a few other scorers can win a regional, but be less than average as a dual team, especially with 14 weight classes to fill.
Will the WWCA and the WIAA figure this out and fix it so the best dual teams actually represent at State?
For those who say "it's fine the way it is" remember that it wasn't too long ago and you get a loss in the first round at individual state and the best you could get was 5th. I don't think anyone is hoping to go back to that.
This is constantly brought up this time of year. I've always thought that a good way to do it was the Top 2 from each Regional move on to the Sectional and then cross bracket. It's not perfect, but a team that takes 3rd in a Regional probably doesn't have much of an argument to say they should be in the Team Sectional. It was either last year or the year before the WIAA shot this idea down. Not sure why. DII and DIII have 4 teams get together on the Team Sectional Tuesday and it works, and they often have much farther to travel, so I don't know why it would matter if DI did it.
Here is an Idea,
Get rid of conference tournaments and bring the teams in each regional together for a team tournament,
DI Sends one team from each Sectional = an eight team bracket at state.
DII and DIII Split the sectional in half and have two regionals at each team sectional so you send two teams from each sectional = 8 team bracket at state.
Run the rounds at team state like the Clash does it and have all each division wrestle in separate 4 blocks placing each bracket from 1-8
That would give you a true team concept all the way through and would eliminate the regional champions making weight on the Tuesday before sectionals. Which adds more stress on those four teams and makes the weekend of conference a worthwhile tounament.
Quote from: crossface21 on February 05, 2014, 03:48:34 PM
This is constantly brought up this time of year. I've always thought that a good way to do it was the Top 2 from each Regional move on to the Sectional and then cross bracket. It's not perfect, but a team that takes 3rd in a Regional probably doesn't have much of an argument to say they should be in the Team Sectional. It was either last year or the year before the WIAA shot this idea down. Not sure why. DII and DIII have 4 teams get together on the Team Sectional Tuesday and it works, and they often have much farther to travel, so I don't know why it would matter if DI did it.
That idea was voted down by the WIAA. Not sure why.
Spartan are you nuts ???,get rid of conference tournaments?Outside of the state tournament,you will see some of the best wrestling at the conference tournaments.Almost 40 ranked Div1(plus a few div2) wrestlers in The Badger conference tounament.
Yeah, but for every tough-as-nails conference tournament, there's a pretty weak one right down the road. Or a good one that is totally redundant because the same teams will meet in regionals 7 days later.
I don't think it would be too tough to bracket and dual through the regional just like they do for football / basketball. Think about how much excitement there is when your towns fb or bb team is on a deep playoff run! We are deprived of that in wrestling because a "playoff run" in wrestling is one night followed by a dual tournament 3 weeks later.
Quote from: boowrestle on February 05, 2014, 06:46:28 PM
Spartan are you nuts ???,get rid of conference tournaments?Outside of the state tournament,you will see some of the best wrestling at the conference tournaments.Almost 40 ranked Div1(plus a few div2) wrestlers in The Badger conference tounament.
And those 40 wrestlers have wrestled each other in duals already during the year, Guys that are in the same conference could see each other 5 or six times in a few week period Worachek and Kreuger wrestled Saturday, they could meet in the conference dual on thursday, team sectionals, sectionals and state. Decide conference titles in duals and open up the weekend for something that actually matters.
As to why it hasn't been changed... I think we can find that answer by looking at how little administrative work the WIAA currently has to do. They run a bunch of touranments on the same day in February (which they were already going to do) and then on one Tuesday night, they do the rest of the qualifying. So in just one extra day of wrestling, they get from 128 teams to 8 for DI.
Its clearly a holdover from when the WWCA first pushed through the concept of team state and the WIAA allowed it, as long as it caused the least hassle possible for them.
Having two duals in D1 doesn't cause any more headaches for anyone other than the officials who have to work two duals. It is mind boggling.
"How little administrative work the WIAA has to do". Wow. Live my February CLC.
Woody - I am NOT talking about the state tournament. I can't even fathom what it takes to pull that off. You and the rest of the people who run both state tournaments do an incredible job every single year.
My comment was in regards to the qualifying "series" if you can even call it that. In BB or FB the WIAA needs to find hosts and refs on all kinds of different dates at all kinds of different locations. In wrestling - for all 3 divisions combined - it's a total of 16 sites, 32 refs, and it takes exactly one night to get it all done. Yes, I would call that an easy thing to administrate comparatively speaking.
My question is how many times do you want to see the same teams/kids in a row. Over here at Bloomington Kennedy we face prior lake tonight. Then next weekend we will face them again at team sections. The next weekend we will face them at sections. The weekend after that we could see them again at state. We have also seen them at another tourney so that would make five times in a year and 4 times in a row.
I am also in favor of no longer using the individual Regionals to determine who participates in Team Sectionals. I also understand the importance to some, that conference tournaments are needed. Why not have all those who still want conference tournaments have them held the last weekend in January? The WIAA could then use the first week of February to have actual team duals. Seed each Regional as done in football/basketball, then hold duals on the first Tuesday of February, then the winners wrestle again on the first Saturday, with the finals to be held the second Tuesday of February. The individual Regionals could then take place on the 2nd Saturday of February as usual and then Team Sectionals on the 3rd Tuesday of February as usual. Use the same format as football does as to who hosts. Round 1 the higher seeds host. Round 2 the higher seed hosts unless the the other team has not yet hosted. 3rd round held at the higher seeds house. Not wanting to be the one to say this is a lot of work for the WIAA to set up, but to me this should not be that difficult. If the WIAA has the time to set this type of system up for football and basketball, then why not wrestling? It is time for the WIAA to totally recognize that the sport of wrestling is now a "Team" sport and needs to be treated as such!!
I really think we are dropping the ball in Wisconsin by not pushing the team aspect of Wrestling more like Minnesota does. It would not be that difficult to run a single elimination dual tournament for regionals. It could most likely be done in an evening the week before regionals. Most D2 and D3 regionals have 6 teams so you could od it with 5 duals, with the first 2 rounds running at the same time. If you had 7 or 8 teams, you could do the 1st round the week before conference and then have the "Final 4" the week before regionals. Or like Spartan said eliminate the Conference Tournaments. I would rather see my scenario since there is a lot of tradition in some of the conference.
Chuck
statman,
How will you see prior lake both at team sections and state? If you are in the same section you can't both qualify. I would also guess there are teams in your section that you might only see once per season. And your state already has true team qualifying. Lucky.
I agree with Spartan. Conference tournaments don't mean squat when it comes down to it. Regionals could also be changed to a Super Sectional (2 day event). That would free up two weekends. Bracket duals on the Thursday or Friday of Conference week, Finals on Saturday. Top two from each regions move forward 1's vs 2's from other region the following Friday night (for example) as a big event. That would possibly allow for the two from the same region to battle again to go to state and you would get a true idea of who the best two teams in each section are.
Weekend I : Team sections, dual format 8 teams, we do ours on a Friday afternoon/evening.
We used to have bigger sections so it was Friday night/Saturday
Single elimination, 8 teams at state tournament
Weekend II Individual Sections
Friday/Saturday
Champ and Runner-up go to state, 16 man bracket
Week/Weekend III State Tournament, Team and Individual
Some places still have conference tournaments
I am sure a lot of wrestlers take pride in being a conference champ. Especially those that might not make the state tournament.
I agree, the format needs to change but don't take a memory away from the wrestlers. Some may have goals to be a state champ while others it may be to be a conference champ. After all, it is about them.
we have team sections 1 weekend. the next weekend is individual sections. the week after that is individual state then team state. so once in the dual. once at team sections. once at individual sections. once possibly at individual state
Woody. What help would it take from the community or Forum members to get the WIAA to change from our current format on how we define Team Sectional qualifers? Would a petition help in any way?
The WIAA doesn't care what we think or want... :'(
Most changes that the WIAA will back, will come from the Coaches Association.
Last i heard coaches association wanted top 2 teams in Div1 out of regionals to qualify for team sectionals and guess what wiaa shot it down! :(
Quote from: chuckref on February 06, 2014, 08:34:32 AM
I really think we are dropping the ball in Wisconsin by not pushing the team aspect of Wrestling more like Minnesota does. It would not be that difficult to run a single elimination dual tournament for regionals. It could most likely be done in an evening the week before regionals. Most D2 and D3 regionals have 6 teams so you could od it with 5 duals, with the first 2 rounds running at the same time. If you had 7 or 8 teams, you could do the 1st round the week before conference and then have the "Final 4" the week before regionals. Or like Spartan said eliminate the Conference Tournaments. I would rather see my scenario since there is a lot of tradition in some of the conference.
Chuck
I agree with this. The other advantage of Team Duals is it creates a venue in which the school can come out & support the team. You're not going to get a large group of students to come to a regional meet that last all day & the criteria is hard to understand. When our HS team competes against another team we get decent support from the students who come out to support their classmates. Even if they don't understand all of the details of scoring, they understand who is winning & what the overall results are. Our team made it to the team sectionals last year & we had a full busload of students come to support them. It was loud & very exciting for the wrestlers. You will never achieve that in a tournament setting.
Quote from: woody53 on February 07, 2014, 07:11:56 AM
Most changes that the WIAA will back, will come from the Coaches Association.
Do you know the reasoning regarding not having the top two teams from D1 wrestle at team sectionals? I thought it passed through to the highest level, and then was shot down. I don't remember there being any reasons given.
WIAA hates change!!!!!!!
Quote from: boowrestle on February 07, 2014, 10:35:46 AM
WIAA hates change!!!!!!!
Apparently not when it comes to conference alignment.
Darn conference alignment. I'm not happy with some of that.