The statement that Wisconsin does not have a lot of D1 wrestling talent comes up a lot on this forum. I have read posts on here supporting and contradicting this statement. Isn't this a chicken and the egg question? Meaning, does Wisconsin not have in-state talent because it is not developed at the college level by the UW or do in-state kids not have success at the UW because there is no in-state talent?
I truly don't know the answer to this question but I think it could be a fun topic to debate. How would you measure in-state D1 talent at the high school level? There are a few national folkstyle tournaments but not enough to really determine what states are the best. Is Cadet and Jr. Nationals a good measuring stick? Or how about rankings? I feel the national rankings are pretty hit or miss, if you are on a team that gets lots of exposure and a coach promoting you there is a better chance you will pop up in the rankings.
I think if you are using Cadet and Jr. Nationals the state of Wisconsin for its population size performs well nationally and is typically a top ten state. How does Wisconsin usually perform at these national tournaments compared to Missouri, Oklahoma and NY? I would guess (not sure have not followed for a few years) many of the years Wisconsin performs better or is in the same tier as these states. Mizzou, OSU and Cornell are the top teams for these states, do they do it with in-state talent or out?
Another way to compare would be to analyze the number of NCAA Champs, All Americans, and NCAA Qualifiers the state of Wisconsin has produced for the UW and compare it to the number Wisconsin has produced for other programs. This seems like a lot of work but I am sure someone out there can find these stats or already has them. We could also find the total number of Wisconsin Wrestlers that have gone to the UW vs. other programs and create a success rate percentage?? I am not a statistical guru so I am not sure what the best statistical method would be to achieve an honest result.
I think it is safe to say Wisconsin is not PA, IL or MN, but how do Wisconsin high school kids compare to Iowa, Missouri, Oklahoma, Virginia or NY? These four states all have top 5 if not top 10 college wrestling programs.
Lets try to prove that either Wisconsin does not have the talent as a state or that it does have enough talent to produce a top tier D1 program. Lets see if we can put this argument to bed one way or the other.
Disclaimer: I do not care what the result is, I do not have an agenda for or against UW and Barry. I am from Wisconsin and want to see Wisconsin kids do well and the UW. I would just like the answer to the question: Is Wisconsin is lacking in D1 talent compared to states like Iowa, Missouri, Oklahoma, Virginia and NY? I always hear the phrase Wisconsin does not have in-state D1 talent but there are never statistics attached to back up that statement. Or maybe I was not paying enough attention when I read those posts, it is quite possible!
You would seem to be far too rational and civil to participate in any such discussion on this topic on the forum ;)
Probably why I moved to South Carolina! Better weather, beaches and southern hospitality!
Here are the team scores for the last 5 years at Jr. Nationals along with the number of participants. Wisconsin did finish in the top 10 three years and top 20 the other two. Summer Freestyle tournaments can be tricky to use as a barometer as many of the kids may not wrestle. However, it is one of the only big national tournaments to you can use to see how different states high school wrestlers compare.
2010 Jr. Nationals
1 Illinois - 52 72
2 Iowa - 44 64
3 Minnesota - 57 40
4 Missouri - 35 37
5 Wisconsin - 44 30
6 California - 51 24
7 New Jersey, NJ - 28 24
8 Florida - 34 22
9 Michigan, MI - 30 21
10 New York - 46 19
11 Oklahoma - 29 17
12 Ohio - 51 16
13 South Dakota - 12 16
14 Maryland - 33 14
15 Idaho - 27 12
16 Pennsylvania - 42 12
17 Washington - 32 12
18 Kansas - 39 10
19 Connecticut - 8 8
20 Utah, UT - 23 8
21 North Dakota - 13 7
22 Indiana - 31 6
23 Massachusetts - 20 6
24 North Carolina - 20 6
25 South Carolina, SC - 2 6
26 Texas - 15 6
27 Montana, MT - 9 5
28 Louisiana - 9 4
29 Nebraska - 7 4
30 Alabama - 9 3
2011 Jr. Nationals
1 Illinois, IL - 51 93
2 Iowa, IA - 50 55
3 Wisconsin, WI - 37 32
4 Ohio, OH - 53 30
5 California, CA - 54 29
6 Michigan, MI - 20 27
7 Minnesota, MN - 54 27
8 Florida, FL - 22 26
9 Virginia, VA - 28 24
10 New York, NY - 40 22
11 Indiana, IN - 33 19
12 Colorado, CO - 29 18
13 Oklahoma, OK - 27 15
14 Washington, WA - 35 15
15 New Jersey, NJ - 25 12
16 Arizona, AZ - 31 9
17 Maryland, MD - 24 9
18 South Carolina, SC - 5 9
19 Nebraska, NE - 6 8
20 Oregon, OR - 33 8
21 Hawaii, HI - 14 7
22 Pennsylvania, PA - 48 7
23 Massachusetts, MA - 6 6
24 North Dakota, ND - 15 5
25 Texas, TX - 18 5
26 Wyoming, WY - 24 5
27 Idaho, ID - 19 4
28 Kansas, KS - 23 4
29 Nevada, NV - 15 4
30 Montana, MT - 18 3
2012 Jr. Nationals
1 Illinois, IL - 58 63
2 Iowa, IA - 49 51
3 Minnesota, MN - 53 48
4 Pennsylvania, PA - 49 40
5 Michigan, MI - 26 26
6 New York, NY - 41 26
7 Missouri, MO - 40 24
8 California, CA - 58 23
9 Ohio, OH - 48 22
10 New Jersey, NJ - 26 21
11 Maryland, MD - 30 17
12 Colorado, CO - 33 16
13 Idaho, ID - 24 14
14 Indiana, IN - 29 14
15 Wisconsin, WI - 43 14
16 Arizona, AZ - 28 13
17 Washington, WA - 40 12
18 South Carolina, SC - 8 11
19 Texas, TX - 16 11
20 Florida, FL - 19 10
21 Oklahoma, OK - 28 10
22 New Mexico, NM - 4 8
23 Oregon, OR - 22 8
24 Georgia, GA - 19 7
25 Utah, UT - 25 6
26 Virginia, VA - 21 5
27 Delaware, DE - 2 4
28 North Carolina, NC - 36 4
29 Wyoming, WY - 12 4
30 Kansas, KS - 26 3
2013 Jr. Nationals
1 Illinois, IL - 61 69
2 Oklahoma, OK - 33 46
3 California, CA - 50 42
4 Ohio, OH - 48 34
5 Indiana, IN - 30 31
6 Michigan, MI - 36 30
7 Iowa, IA - 39 28
8 Minnesota, MN - 56 26
9 Wisconsin, WI - 36 25
10 Missouri, MO - 40 22
11 New Jersey, NJ - 35 22
12 Utah, UT - 31 21
13 Pennsylvania, PA - 48 20
14 North Dakota, ND - 23 17
15 Texas, TX - 17 14
16 Florida, FL - 18 9
17 Georgia, GA - 22 9
18 Oregon, OR - 31 9
19 Tennessee, TN - 6 8
20 Colorado, CO - 22 7
21 Connecticut, CT - 10 7
22 Kansas, KS - 22 7
23 Wyoming, WY - 13 6
24 North Carolina, NC - 29 5
25 Virginia, VA - 26 5
26 Alabama, AL - 11 4
27 Delaware, DE - 7 4
28 West Virginia, WV - 7 4
29 Nebraska, NE - 14 3
30 Arizona, AZ - 29 2
2014 Jr. Nationals
1. New Jersey 58
2. Minnesota 53
3. Oklahoma 53
4. Pennsylvania 53
5. Iowa 36
6. Illinois 35
7. Michigan 25
8. Missouri 21
9. Utah 20
10. Ohio 17
11. New York 16
12. California 14
13. Texas 12
14. Indiana 11
15. North Dakota 9
16. Oregon 9
17. South Dakota 9
18. Arizona 8
19. Georgia 8
20. Wisconsin 8
21. Connecticut 7
22. Massachusetts 7
23. Virginia 7
24. Florida 6
25. Kentucky 6
26. Washington 6
27. Idaho 5
28. Kansas 5
29. Arkansas 4
30. Colorado 4
31. Maryland 4
32. Nebraska 4
I believe WI has plenty of quality in state talent, as much as just about any other state based on our population we have an average amount of AA's
Quick calculation of what states have top 10 ranked high school wrestlers.
Penn-25
Illinois-15
Ohio-14
Minnesota-11
Iowa-8
Wisconsin-1 guy from Hartford
Jag, you are WRONG. WI has ONE top ten ranked kid in the ENTIRE country...to say that WI has as much in state talent as any other state is plain silly and stupid.
I would prefer to use actual results than rankings, how are they ranking kids that have never actually wrestled each other? Playing devils advocate lets say WI had 10 guys just miss the top ten ranked between 11-15 do you think there is really much of a difference between a guy ranked 6-10 or 11-15? I think it is safe to say that rankings are only as good as the paper they written on, UW has had a few top recruiting class that we have experienced. I think you can use rankings as a very lighted hearted projection.
What are the actual results in competition?
I think these stats would give us the best answer: lol now who wants to collect the data?
Another way to compare would be to analyze the number of NCAA Champs, All Americans, and NCAA Qualifiers the state of Wisconsin has produced for the UW and compare it to the number Wisconsin has produced for other programs. This seems like a lot of work but I am sure someone out there can find these stats or already has them. We could also find the total number of Wisconsin Wrestlers that have gone to the UW vs. other programs and create a success rate percentage?? I am not a statistical guru so I am not sure what the best statistical method would be to achieve an honest result.
Rankings are very biased and full of holes. If you go by rankings than Wisconsin is behind pretty much any state. Go by results. I talked to the rankers at Flo. They are very East Coast or Powerhouse program biased, and they will tell you that. It is a proven system for them.
Josh Bird walked through Fargo Nationals, yet isn't even honorable mention. Marko records 1 loss to a unranked guy and he gets knocked completely out. Yet kids like Matt Kolodzik from St. Paris Graham, Ohio - now Blair Academy, NJ gets beat multiple times in the last couple of years by guys not in the top ten, yet he stays in the top 3 annually.
Powerhouse Program biased. If Robert Lee, Beau Breske, Hunter Marko, etc. weren't doing so many National Tournaments, they would not be ranked Nationally.
Quote from: Micah on January 28, 2015, 11:29:57 AM
I would prefer to use actual results than rankings, how are they ranking kids that have never actually wrestled each other? Playing devils advocate lets say WI had 10 guys just miss the top ten ranked between 11-15 do you think there is really much of a difference between a guy ranked 6-10 or 11-15? I think it is safe to say that rankings are only as good as the paper they written on, UW has had a few top recruiting class that we have experienced. I think you can use rankings as a very lighted hearted projection.
What are the actual results in competition?
I think these stats would give us the best answer: lol now who wants to collect the data?
Another way to compare would be to analyze the number of NCAA Champs, All Americans, and NCAA Qualifiers the state of Wisconsin has produced for the UW and compare it to the number Wisconsin has produced for other programs. This seems like a lot of work but I am sure someone out there can find these stats or already has them. We could also find the total number of Wisconsin Wrestlers that have gone to the UW vs. other programs and create a success rate percentage?? I am not a statistical guru so I am not sure what the best statistical method would be to achieve an honest result.
If you do that, then do it for PA. I have seen reports on the number of AA's PA produces and it was a ridiculous number, at that time PSU wasn't the powerhouse they are today. So if you don't have an agenda, I suggest you do the same analysis for other states such as IL, IN, OH, PA, MN and NJ.
A simple google search gave me this:
https://jaroslavwrestling.wordpress.com/2014/03/24/2014-ncaa-wrestling-all-americans-graphs-and-maps-of-their-home-states/
and this: http://www.wrestlingreport.com/2011-12_News/2012%20NCAA%20Division%20I%20-%20V2.pdf
Should help juice up the argument one way or another.
Quote from: wrestle03 on January 28, 2015, 10:54:00 AM
Quick calculation of what states have top 10 ranked high school wrestlers.
Penn-25
Illinois-15
Ohio-14
Minnesota-11
Iowa-8
Wisconsin-1 guy from Hartford
Jag, you are WRONG. WI has ONE top ten ranked kid in the ENTIRE country...to say that WI has as much in state talent as any other state is plain silly and stupid.
I know I'm just stupid... we have about 2% of the nations population, since 2000 about 1120 AA's have been crowned... 2% of 1120 is 22.4 we have more than 22.4 AA's since 2000 we have more than our fair share, we are above average... Illinois is 2nd on your list, when if the last time they finished in to the top 3 in the country? By you line of thinking they should be a lot better.
I just had to put my two cents in on this plus some stats. A couple things must at least brought to the forefront. I simply want to place the facts out there as the numbers are hard to ignore.
Stats from 2013
80 All Americans and only 1 from Wisconsin High Schools
Stats from 2014
80 All Americans and only 2 from Wisconsin High Schools
It concerns me that of in the past two years 660 wrestlers compete at Nationals and less than a 2 dozen were from Wisconsin and only 3 All-Americans. You can make all of the assumptions/excuses you want but the numbers do not lie. Less than 4% of the qualifiers and less than 2% of the All-Americans.
Does the problem exists because of:
A. Wisconsin does not have that many great wrestlers
B. Wisconsin does not put out many true student athletes
C. Not enough Division 1 Opportunities close by for Wisconsin athletes
D. All of the above
And lastly, some other interesting stats that I found:
From http://mwolverine.com/Top_Wrestling_States.html
If I read it correctly from 1961 to 2011 Wisconsin has had 82 All Americans by 49 different wrestlers Ranking it 12th
In order of Total All-America Wrestlers
PA - 504
Iowa - 350
Ohio - 313
OK - 271
Ill - 242
Cal - 240
NJ - 213
NY- 211
Mich- 182
Minn- 128
Oregon-125
Wisc - 82
Quote from: npope on January 28, 2015, 07:30:06 AM
You would seem to be far too rational and civil to participate in any such discussion on this topic on the forum ;)
I laughed at this one, Nat...!
(Why did I find it funny?....mostly because there is
more than an element of truth to it...)
IMO B is the overall best answer.
We've got some great talent. There isn't much of a draw, in my perception, for kids to wrestle in college, especially D1 and/or for the Badgers.
We have no 2 year college wrestling in the state. I believe our D2 and D3 programs get much less attention from the media, and more importantly, the wrestling public than they should. So kids grow up sort of unaware or in disbelief of their abilities.
In addition, about 76% of the states population does not have a 4-year college degree. That's a strong pull to stay home and work with your buddies or family.
Let us not forget that scholarships, or lack of them come into play a bit in-state. IA has 3 D1 teams. MI has 3. Just examples.
Quote from: wrestlinglife1 on January 28, 2015, 11:49:47 AM
Rankings are very biased and full of holes. If you go by rankings than Wisconsin is behind pretty much any state. Go by results. I talked to the rankers at Flo. They are very East Coast or Powerhouse program biased, and they will tell you that. It is a proven system for them.
Josh Bird walked through Fargo Nationals, yet isn't even honorable mention. Marko records 1 loss to a unranked guy and he gets knocked completely out. Yet kids like Matt Kolodzik from St. Paris Graham, Ohio - now Blair Academy, NJ gets beat multiple times in the last couple of years by guys not in the top ten, yet he stays in the top 3 annually.
Powerhouse Program biased. If Robert Lee, Beau Breske, , etc. weren't doing so many National Tournaments, they would not be ranked Nationally.
Marko is not top 20 on win or intermat... yeah... right.
Handles, because I want to analyze this based on facts does not make me agenda driven, just fact based. I just want to look at stats and see if Wisconsin's talent pool is as bad as it is made out to be. I have already conceded that states like PA, IL, MN, OH, and NJ produce more AAs on a consistent basis. After seeing the results I would put IA up with those other states. These states are just better and have been for years, maybe it is population size or the way wrestling programs are ran in those states. I don't see this changing anytime soon.
Looking at the site handles posted it is my observation that these states have a firm command on the rd 12 guys - low AAs. These tend to be the guys that win you tournaments. However, WI did run right with these states when it came to guys finishing in the top 3. I had to look up the other guy placing top three besides Dieringer and it was Monk. This was only for 2014 so not sure if this trend holds true for multiple years, it definitely didn't in 2012.
2012 was a bad year for the state of Wisconsin Yikes!
Teams not from the states listed above that are regularly finish top 10 or 5 are Missouri, OK State, and Cornell. I think Wisconsin as a state is just as good at wrestling as Missouri, Oklahoma, and New York if not better, I have not seen anything yet showing these states produce better wrestlers. Ok State I think you can throw out having John Smith is like having Gable, JRob or Brands as a head coach.
If Missouri and Cornell are recruiting from a similar talent pool as WI how do they do it consistently? Is it developing in state recruits or out of state? Could just be luck on hitting on the right recruits. Whatever they are doing is what WI needs to start doing. Cornell is probably the closest match from an all around school considering academics.
States like Indiana and Michigan are also very comparable to the state of Wisconsin and I would say the Badgers are on Par if not better than Indiana, Michigan and Purdue. I know they just lost to Michigan but over the last few years the teams have been very comparable. Indiana and Michigan do have multiple D1 one teams that could play role although I would be willing to bet that Michigan gets it's pick of the litter in that state.
I think things could be worse at Wisconsin and maybe Cornell, Ok. State and Missouri are exceptions to the rule. I don't see anything wrong with wanting the team you cheer for to be the exception to the rule and I don't think the talent pool in Wisconsin is preventing it from reaching this level from everything I have seen.
When looking at All-Americans produced by a state you have to consider how many D1 programs that state has.
I think we all agree it is very difficult to predict which high school wrestlers would become AA's. Thus a state like Iowa with three programs is certainly going to have more AA's. Heck even if UW had another D1 program and they only took kids from WI that nobody else wanted, some of them would still become AA's.
I like to compare WI with Minnesota. Demographics are similar and only one D1 program. Minnesota competes better as a D1 program and has more AA's coming from the state. Why is that?
Do not compare anything with Cornell. Cornell and the other Ivies do not offer athletic scholarships .
Right, but you did throw out the multiple choice questions and answers, so you must be looking for some reasons. I took a somewhat educated guess at B. and explained my reasoning based off of coaching in IA, MN, WI.
I could be way off target, but just looking at numbers is only part of figuring out the solution.
Doc, JHI could be a partial reason why Mn fairs differently.If we threw D3 colleges in the mix I'm sure the gap would widen even more. But as I explained before, I believe MN (and IA if we are looking at neighbors) have more emphasis on wrestling as a whole, have 2 year college programs, Better tradition and results from their D1 programs certainly doesn't hurt.
I think the way this breaks down is pretty simple.
If few wrestlers from wisconsin high schools end up being AA, regardless of what university they attend, then this points to wisconsin high school wrestling not being as good as other states.
If wisconsin high schools are producing a statistically significant amount of AA's, then you can break it down by the different universities and possibly make assumptions regarding coaching and/or recruiting talent evaluation.
With that being said, based on the numbers gathered by others and presented in this thread, it looks like there are very few AA's that wrestled high school in wisconsin. This would lead me to believe there isn't a high number of high talent level wrestlers produced from the state. Not to say there isn't any high talent wrestlers, just saying that there isn't a high volume of them.
mdbriggs showed us we rank 12 in total aa's since 1961... we rank 20th in overall population... so we are performing above average.
But you have to compare those above you according to population too, right?
rank (# of AAs) vs population.
Quote from: MNbadger on January 28, 2015, 05:10:50 PM
But you have to compare those above you according to population too, right?
rank (# of AAs) vs population.
as a state we perform above average, still have 38 states ranked below us. Yes other states are way above average and some well below. As Doc said in Iowa you have chance to be AA at Iowa, Iowa State and Northern Iowa plus other schools in other states. It does make it easier for them when given more opportunities in your home state to wrestle for a D1 school. If WI had 3 D1 programs I could see more kids wrestling for a D1 school giving them more opportunities to have more AA's.
I have to add, there are some simple numeric explanations for some of the disparities. For example, population density by state. Chicago is more than twice as large as Wisconsin from a population standpoint. Pennsylvania, New York, Ohio and Minnesota are all larger. We cannot discount, in my opinion, the fact that the numbers of potential wrestlers from a given state impact the number of AAs or National Champions from a state.
Another, we decide to debate a metric of success at the Cadet or Junior team level, which may be more indicative of how much a state invests its time and energies and talents in making being on a national team a big deal. I have to say I understand the use of this type of predictor, but, I am honestly not confident it provides any truly meaningful information. Having said that, I have watched many matches wrestled by Bruno, Polizzi, Thielke, Dieringer, Donar, Hein and others from Wisconsin from Schoolboy through Junior National Duals. I only listed the top of mind wrestlers that ended up at D1, with apologies to those not listed.
On the other hand, when I watch a significant D1 tournament, such as Midlands, or a B1G Tournament, or Nationals, I see several competitors that I watched wrestle at Northern Plains and that I know excelled at Fargo. Which goes a long way, I should think, to being the predictor that most D1 Coaches use in recruiting.
All a Coach has to do to be successful in recruiting is find several blue chip recruits, that can get into that school, that want to come to that school; then totally commit to choosing and living the idea that between 1) socializing, 2) academic and 3) athlete, one can only do 1 or 2 successfully, not all 3. Then find some diamonds in the rough that develop into high performing members of the team in 2-5 years, and enough depth to develop and fill in when injuries or absences inevitably occur. Simple concept really...
The sports psychologist for Iowa wrestling once told a group of parents that I was in, the best predictor of D1 wrestling success was found not in personality of a wrestler's Father, not a wrestler's Grandfather, but in the Mama. A tough Mom was a good indication of a tough kid. Probably a whole 'nother thread...
Dale, you are correct about the populations of PA, NY, and OH (all double or more than MN/WI).
But WI (5.7 M) actually has a higher population than MN (5.4 M).
Chicago proper is 2.7 M.
"Chicagoland" is 9.5 M which stretches into parts of WI and IN. IL has 12.8 M.
Recruiting the blue chip Illinois and Ohio guys is working great.
For a Wisconsin fan, this is as good as it gets. Do you
realize how hard it will be to find somebody that can replace Medbery?
He was a Fargo national freestyle heavyweight champion and
is a serious threat to be a NCAA national champion this year and the next.
The odds of finding a high level replacement to take over at Hwt once
Medbery graduates is going to be extremely difficult.
Guys like him do not grow on trees. I hope we can pick up
a top level heavyweight recruit at the end of the season
so he has a year to work with Medbery before he is gone.
Quote from: MNbadger on January 28, 2015, 10:25:16 PM
Dale, you are correct about the populations of PA, NY, and OH (all double or more than MN/WI).
But WI (5.7 M) actually has a higher population than MN (5.4 M).
Chicago proper is 2.7 M.
"Chicagoland" is 9.5 M which stretches into parts of WI and IN. IL has 12.8 M.
Thanks MNBadger. I am wearing my orthopedic shoes on comparing Minnesota v. Wisconsin (I stand corrected). But, in fairness, I was thinking of Chicagoland.
billymurphy - I don't think the problem is in replacing Medbery, I think it is in replacing all 10 weight classes when competing with 54 other D1 schools with all of them but Cornell having 9.9 scholarships to award to those coming and retain those already there.
I was just over at the Harvard wrestling team's online wrestling forum (www.harvardwrestling.com) where they have a similar debate going on....
::) ::) ::)
Get it? Somebody should take all of the content of this thread and do a search-and-replace for "UW" and insert "Harvard" instead and then send the thread to the Onion. I guarantee it would get published.
It's fine to want to be a fan of a program that has success on the mat, but all of this hand-wringing as to how the team competes on the mat (or doesn't) really seems to be losing perspective of the bigger picture; the reason for collegiate athletics supposedly exist to begin with. The real question to ask is whether the Badger program is accomplishing what the institution's mandate says it's supposed to be accomplishing - which is probably a lot more along the lines of building character, etc., instead of winning on the mat.
I do understand that MN as a state is comparable to WI in population and does have only one D1 program, but right now I don't think you can expect the Badgers to be on the same level as the Gophers. There is a pretty large gap in my opinion between the number of D1 talented wrestlers in MN compared to WI. I am not sure what the cause is for this gap, I think JHI could be a main reason, I also think JRob is extremely organized and amazing at promoting his product. He runs the wrestling program like he is a CEO and seems to be involved in organization of everything from National Duals to his camps he is very hands on. This might also create some trickle down into the HS and Youth level. There are not many college wrestling coaches out there that promote as well as he does.
I think for WI to compete with the big boys they have to almost be perfect in their recruiting due. They need to hit on that one stud from WI that seems to come around every 2-3 years, bring in 3-4 studs from out of state like they have been doing, and fill in the rest of the starting line-up with guys that will qualify for nationals and win a few matches and possibly get lucky and AA. They have a much smaller margin of error compared to the other top teams. If the Badgers miss on something it is more noticeable and harder to cover with depth in the room. I am not saying that can't consistently compete at the top level, they just need to be more perfect than some of the other schools.
I am not sure that having more in state D1 programs is necessarily going to create a dramatic increase in AA's per state. It will no doubt create more opportunities, thus by chance increasing the number of AAs for a state. But how many AAs are NIU, EMU and SIUE producing on a regular basis? Having more D1 schools might improve the coaching pool and opportunities for wrestlers to get good coaching.
Quote from: MNbadger on January 28, 2015, 10:25:16 PM
Dale, you are correct about the populations of PA, NY, and OH (all double or more than MN/WI).
But WI (5.7 M) actually has a higher population than MN (5.4 M).
I think MN's population being basically in one main area St. Paul/ Minneapolis plus their suburbs help create the hotbed of wrestling for MN. Much bigger overall schools, more kids in the room at one time for practice partners helps them a great deal.
WI has similar population numbers but is much more spread out. Much more D2/D3 type schools, many do not get the same numbers in the wrestling rooms. Many MN schools their practice matches everyday are harder than their competition matches. Helps bring out the best and toughness in those kids. (Not saying WI doesn't have schools like this or isn't tough, just a possible factor).
Quote from: shouldvewrestled on January 29, 2015, 08:18:21 AM
Quote from: MNbadger on January 28, 2015, 10:25:16 PM
Dale, you are correct about the populations of PA, NY, and OH (all double or more than MN/WI).
But WI (5.7 M) actually has a higher population than MN (5.4 M).
I think MN's population being basically in one main area St. Paul/ Minneapolis plus their suburbs help create the hotbed of wrestling for MN. Much bigger overall schools, more kids in the room at one time for practice partners helps them a great deal.
WI has similar population numbers but is much more spread out. Much more D2/D3 type schools, many do not get the same numbers in the wrestling rooms. Many MN schools their practice matches everyday are harder than their competition matches. Helps bring out the best and toughness in those kids. (Not saying WI doesn't have schools like this or isn't tough, just a possible factor).
I know the Chicago area has some powerhouse wrestling teams, I'm not sure about the twin cities, if we look at Madison and Milwaukee schools we have very little team and individual success when just looking at city schools, I couldn't name the last state champion from a Madison school and your talking about a ton of kids in the system. Even if we look at Green Bay, how many champs from east, west, Preble, southwest in the last 10 years? Over 5000 total kids in those schools. Seems our highly populated areas have very little wrestling tradition
Yet, if you took a map of Wisconsin and put pins in the teams and individuals ranked in the top few, you would find arguments that differ from the points you are making.
Kaukauna and Freedom are neighbors; if we have really short memories we won't add L-C and OF to the discussion regarding that part of the state. Wausau West, Rapids and Merrill are conference foes and relative neighbors. Bayport and Pulaski kind of put the final kink in the Green Bay Area competitiveness discussion; I remember not too many years ago Ashwaubenon marched out 3 at the top of the lineup that were pretty okay. I find it interesting that we are about to enter the "which Sectional will have the most state place winners" discussion time; the Green Bay Area will be arguing it has been or will be that area.
Milton, Stoughton and Lodi have had very strong Madison-Area programs; Sun Prairie not only had a multiple state champion, but multiple champions; one of them was good enough to become a Badger. Sauk Prairie has become a very tough team to beat in recent years. Not too many years ago we saw a 3-team coop with 3 wrestlers at the very top of the heap from New Glarus and Belleville and some other town I am about to scolded about because I am old and I have a feeble memory.
I have 2 sons who lost in the finals in consecutive years, all to Milwaukee Area wrestlers....if you count Port, Germantown and Hartford as Milwaukee Area. Pewaukee has been a perennial power in D2; they seem to have made the leap to D1 quite well from a power perspective.
I think it is safe to say that there are many schools that have wrestling programs that have them doing well, most of the time.
I don't believe Apple Valley is what most would consider to be an "inner city" high school; one of the reasons people in Minnesota love to cheer against Apple Valley is because they tend to get what most feel is more than their fair share of transfers. We are back to that winning begets winning thing.
I also think the rise of strong wrestling clubs tends to shift the balance of power and results throughout the state. And, this was true in Illinois and Minnesota as well.
I do think there is something to JHI. Tom has been a supporter since 1997 after all...
FYI, the toughest combined Section in MN (based on state qualifiers/placing/champs tallied up by some math geeks on the guillotine) has been Section 1 on average (a few other sections slid in the top spot for a year or so) for over 20 years. That is the SE part of the state (Rochester area towards La Crosse and south to IA) with some very small schools (many with graduating classes of much less than 100). A couple big schools like STMA, Valley, Hastings in MN do certainly skew things vs. WI schools, but remember that in most of the big schools in MN, and even the medium schools, hockey completely dominates the sports scene like nothing WI wrestling has to compete with. MN has 5 D1 hockey schools just to help you understand the enormity of the sport here, not to mention UND right on the boarder. Most of the Mpls and St. Paul schools are very weak in wrestling, which equates to the Milwaukee schools. Coaches at the Winona Tournament this year all collected donations and bought wrestling shoes for the Mpls North wrestling team this year. We hated to see them wearing basketball shoes on the mat. We collected about 30 pair which hopefully will last the team for a while and get some kids to stay in, or join the sport.
There aren't any wrestling "schools" like Advance or Askren available to kids in that part of the state (Section 1), most are homegrown and coached by very "normal" coaches, nothing fancy. Not any better than WI has for coaches.
I won't say that any particular team or individual is better than a WI kid or team, that would be stupid. I think that on average though, North to South, East to West, Big or Small, MN does do a better job getting their kids to the college level than does WI. Personally I believe JHI is a factor that can't be dismissed.
Also as mentioned, more than 76% of Wisconsinites do not have a 4-year degree, that compares to MN at 67% who do not. Since WI has a higher population, that equates to fewer kids going to college (or at least earning a degree). Kids can't become D1 AA's if they don't go to college. 9% more kids going to college certainly could equate to a few more AA's over the long haul.
Quote from: Dale Einerson on January 29, 2015, 09:09:54 AM
Yet, if you took a map of Wisconsin and put pins in the teams and individuals ranked in the top few, you would find arguments that differ from the points you are making.
Kaukauna and Freedom are neighbors; if we have really short memories we won't add L-C and OF to the discussion regarding that part of the state. Wausau West, Rapids and Merrill are conference foes and relative neighbors. Bayport and Pulaski kind of put the final kink in the Green Bay Area competitiveness discussion; I remember not too many years ago Ashwaubenon marched out 3 at the top of the lineup that were pretty okay. I find it interesting that we are about to enter the "which Sectional will have the most state place winners" discussion time; the Green Bay Area will be arguing it has been or will be that area.
Milton, Stoughton and Lodi have had very strong Madison-Area programs; Sun Prairie not only had a multiple state champion, but multiple champions; one of them was good enough to become a Badger. Sauk Prairie has become a very tough team to beat in recent years. Not too many years ago we saw a 3-team coop with 3 wrestlers at the very top of the heap from New Glarus and Belleville and some other town I am about to scolded about because I am old and I have a feeble memory.
I have 2 sons who lost in the finals in consecutive years, all to Milwaukee Area wrestlers....if you count Port, Germantown and Hartford as Milwaukee Area. Pewaukee has been a perennial power in D2; they seem to have made the leap to D1 quite well from a power perspective.
I think it is safe to say that there are many schools that have wrestling programs that have them doing well, most of the time.
I don't believe Apple Valley is what most would consider to be an "inner city" high school; one of the reasons people in Minnesota love to cheer against Apple Valley is because they tend to get what most feel is more than their fair share of transfers. We are back to that winning begets winning thing.
I also think the rise of strong wrestling clubs tends to shift the balance of power and results throughout the state. And, this was true in Illinois and Minnesota as well.
I do think there is something to JHI. Tom has been a supporter since 1997 after all...
Dale, I wasn't talking about the area around the city, I was talking about the city... yes within a 20-30 mile radius you pick up some very good teams/individuals. GB has 5000 kids in west, east, Preble and southwest and I can't remember more than 1 champ from those schools in the last 10 years... I don't recall any from Madsion east, west, memorial, la follette.... Lodi is 20 minutes away plenty of separation. Madison high schools have over 6000 kids, GB have around 5,000... and I have a hard time coming up with more than 1 champ from any of those schools in the last 10 years.
Great inputs Handles, thank you.
I think the number of college graduates of 4 year programs is interesting, but, it doesn't deal specifically with the number of students entering 4 year programs per year, just an overall number of graduates in the state. It doesn't deal with where those 4 year graduates graduated from...
But, I do think we are back to JHI. If Jack Reinwand used to say, paraphrased, if we make team state every year for 4 years, that means my Seniors have another month of wrestling season over their 4 year career; that adds up. Just use JHI and turn that into 6 months...kind of a big deal.
My Freshman wrestled an 8th grader this year. To think that 8th grader had a year more of Varsity experience than my Freshman...
Quote from: jaguarwrestler on January 29, 2015, 09:36:38 AM
Quote from: Dale Einerson on January 29, 2015, 09:09:54 AM
Yet, if you took a map of Wisconsin and put pins in the teams and individuals ranked in the top few, you would find arguments that differ from the points you are making.
Kaukauna and Freedom are neighbors; if we have really short memories we won't add L-C and OF to the discussion regarding that part of the state. Wausau West, Rapids and Merrill are conference foes and relative neighbors. Bayport and Pulaski kind of put the final kink in the Green Bay Area competitiveness discussion; I remember not too many years ago Ashwaubenon marched out 3 at the top of the lineup that were pretty okay. I find it interesting that we are about to enter the "which Sectional will have the most state place winners" discussion time; the Green Bay Area will be arguing it has been or will be that area.
Milton, Stoughton and Lodi have had very strong Madison-Area programs; Sun Prairie not only had a multiple state champion, but multiple champions; one of them was good enough to become a Badger. Sauk Prairie has become a very tough team to beat in recent years. Not too many years ago we saw a 3-team coop with 3 wrestlers at the very top of the heap from New Glarus and Belleville and some other town I am about to scolded about because I am old and I have a feeble memory.
I have 2 sons who lost in the finals in consecutive years, all to Milwaukee Area wrestlers....if you count Port, Germantown and Hartford as Milwaukee Area. Pewaukee has been a perennial power in D2; they seem to have made the leap to D1 quite well from a power perspective.
I think it is safe to say that there are many schools that have wrestling programs that have them doing well, most of the time.
I don't believe Apple Valley is what most would consider to be an "inner city" high school; one of the reasons people in Minnesota love to cheer against Apple Valley is because they tend to get what most feel is more than their fair share of transfers. We are back to that winning begets winning thing.
I also think the rise of strong wrestling clubs tends to shift the balance of power and results throughout the state. And, this was true in Illinois and Minnesota as well.
I do think there is something to JHI. Tom has been a supporter since 1997 after all...
Dale, I wasn't talking about the area around the city, I was talking about the city... yes within a 20-30 mile radius you pick up some very good teams/individuals. GB has 5000 kids in west, east, Preble and southwest and I can't remember more than 1 champ from those schools in the last 10 years... I don't recall any from Madsion east, west, memorial, la follette.... Lodi is 20 minutes away plenty of separation. Madison high schools have over 6000 kids, GB have around 5,000... and I have a hard time coming up with more than 1 champ from any of those schools in the last 10 years.
Fair enough, I think we see the same things, I just think we define the city parameters a little differently. I remember, fondly, the 1-man rush of the floor by Papa Mireles after his son won state in D1. Then, I ask myself, didn't that young wrestler transfer from East to DeForest? Not sure...
I do think Middleton's and Verona's and Sun Prairie's and DeForest's champions would be viewed as Madison Area, if not Madison proper, by anybody in the Madison Area. And, we need to remember Monona Grove doesn't have a wrestling program. I always wondered why Edgewood didn't build a wrestling program of similar strength as their golf, basketball and football teams...Stoughton and Lodi might be 20 minutes out, but, since many/most of the parents work in the Madison Area, they probably see themselves as Madison Area.
I do think Bayport, Pulaski, and Ashwaubenon would view themselves as Green Bay Area, if not Green Bay proper.
I do recall a Heavyweight from a Milwaukee school that went off to Iowa Western after doing a backflip and the splits on the mat after winning state. And, he had a team mate that won state that year...Bradford? What does it say about me that I remember the post-match celebration but not the name of the kid(s)?
I do recall Devin Peterson losing to a pretty formidable future Parkside wrestler, don't remember the name or school.
Quote from: Dale Einerson on January 29, 2015, 09:38:26 AM
Great inputs Handles, thank you.
I think the number of college graduates of 4 year programs is interesting, but, it doesn't deal specifically with the number of students entering 4 year programs per year, just an overall number of graduates in the state. It doesn't deal with where those 4 year graduates graduated from...
But, I do think we are back to JHI. If Jack Reinwand used to say, paraphrased, if we make team state every year for 4 years, that means my Seniors have another month of wrestling season over their 4 year career; that adds up. Just use JHI and turn that into 6 months...kind of a big deal.
My Freshman wrestled an 8th grader this year. To think that 8th grader had a year more of Varsity experience than my Freshman...
I'm a big supporter of JHI and I believe that is a big reason MN is better than us in wrestling. Almost every wrestler gets better each year they are on varsity so adding another season or two will only make that much more of a difference. If your a top notch 8th grader you probably don't make it our of the first period of most of your matches, if you where to compete on varsity you would have your hands full most of the time... what scenario makes you better?
I don't want to belabor the point about population but...
Wisconsin actually has more large centers of population than Minnesota does.
(Dale, I think this was part of a topic on the old political board).
Quote from: Dale Einerson on January 29, 2015, 09:48:25 AM
Quote from: jaguarwrestler on January 29, 2015, 09:36:38 AM
Quote from: Dale Einerson on January 29, 2015, 09:09:54 AM
Yet, if you took a map of Wisconsin and put pins in the teams and individuals ranked in the top few, you would find arguments that differ from the points you are making.
Kaukauna and Freedom are neighbors; if we have really short memories we won't add L-C and OF to the discussion regarding that part of the state. Wausau West, Rapids and Merrill are conference foes and relative neighbors. Bayport and Pulaski kind of put the final kink in the Green Bay Area competitiveness discussion; I remember not too many years ago Ashwaubenon marched out 3 at the top of the lineup that were pretty okay. I find it interesting that we are about to enter the "which Sectional will have the most state place winners" discussion time; the Green Bay Area will be arguing it has been or will be that area.
Milton, Stoughton and Lodi have had very strong Madison-Area programs; Sun Prairie not only had a multiple state champion, but multiple champions; one of them was good enough to become a Badger. Sauk Prairie has become a very tough team to beat in recent years. Not too many years ago we saw a 3-team coop with 3 wrestlers at the very top of the heap from New Glarus and Belleville and some other town I am about to scolded about because I am old and I have a feeble memory.
I have 2 sons who lost in the finals in consecutive years, all to Milwaukee Area wrestlers....if you count Port, Germantown and Hartford as Milwaukee Area. Pewaukee has been a perennial power in D2; they seem to have made the leap to D1 quite well from a power perspective.
I think it is safe to say that there are many schools that have wrestling programs that have them doing well, most of the time.
I don't believe Apple Valley is what most would consider to be an "inner city" high school; one of the reasons people in Minnesota love to cheer against Apple Valley is because they tend to get what most feel is more than their fair share of transfers. We are back to that winning begets winning thing.
I also think the rise of strong wrestling clubs tends to shift the balance of power and results throughout the state. And, this was true in Illinois and Minnesota as well.
I do think there is something to JHI. Tom has been a supporter since 1997 after all...
Dale, I wasn't talking about the area around the city, I was talking about the city... yes within a 20-30 mile radius you pick up some very good teams/individuals. GB has 5000 kids in west, east, Preble and southwest and I can't remember more than 1 champ from those schools in the last 10 years... I don't recall any from Madsion east, west, memorial, la follette.... Lodi is 20 minutes away plenty of separation. Madison high schools have over 6000 kids, GB have around 5,000... and I have a hard time coming up with more than 1 champ from any of those schools in the last 10 years.
Fair enough, I think we see the same things, I just think we define the city parameters a little differently. I remember, fondly, the 1-man rush of the floor by Papa Mireles after his son won state in D1. Then, I ask myself, didn't that young wrestler transfer from East to DeForest? Not sure...
I do think Middleton's and Verona's and Sun Prairie's and DeForest's champions would be viewed as Madison Area, if not Madison proper, by anybody in the Madison Area. And, we need to remember Monona Grove doesn't have a wrestling program. I always wondered why Edgewood didn't build a wrestling program of similar strength as their golf, basketball and football teams...Stoughton and Lodi might be 20 minutes out, but, since many/most of the parents work in the Madison Area, they probably see themselves as Madison Area.
I do think Bayport, Pulaski, and Ashwaubenon would view themselves as Green Bay Area, if not Green Bay proper.
I do recall a Heavyweight from a Milwaukee school that went off to Iowa Western after doing a backflip and the splits on the mat after winning state. And, he had a team mate that won state that year...Bradford? What does it say about me that I remember the post-match celebration but not the name of the kid(s)?
I do recall Devin Peterson losing to a pretty formidable future Parkside wrestler, don't remember the name or school.
Yes in 2005 Mireles won a title for Deforest... I'm glad you where able to find 1... that transferred from a Madison school. Yes... Madison area, Green Bay area... but that does not change the fact that the 11,000 kids in those city school that they have maybe 1 or 2 champs in the last 10 years. A massive amount of kids with almost zero wrestling interest or history in those schools
I think we agree on the principle, I don't want to nitpick on the 1 or 2 comment, but it is bigger than that, concede that it is not by as much as we would think. But you are definitely directionally accurate.
Dale,
If we toss Seymour, Freedom, Ashwaubenon, Bay Port, Pulaski, Wrightstown, L-C, Oconto Falls all into the Green Bay area.... I bet combined they have slightly more enrollment than GB city schools yet have 25 times more state champs the last 10 years. If those city schools had the same level of wrestling as the outer layers of the city the state would be much stronger in the sport. Why is it with such a large talent pool they struggle so bad to build stronger teams? Is wresting only successful in smaller communities?
Didn't realize Penn has about 10 D1 wrestling schools, it is no wonder they have so many AA's, almost every school is full of kids from the state. Put 10 D1 schools in WI and I guarantee out AA's shoot up big time.
Really jags, you think so?
How would that help them qualify for D1 nationals and make it to the AA round? And if they could do that, why aren't they doing it at the UW or any other D1 school in higher numbers? We should at least be seeing many D2 and D3 national champs (which could potentially equate to D1 AA) from our in-state guys if the lack of D1 schools was the case, but we aren't. A few D2, D3 champs here and there, but certainly not enough to predict "AA's shoot up big time".
I don't think the lack of D1 colleges is what's holding our numbers down. Guys who want to be an AA bad enough can find a school willing to take them.
Quote from: Handles II on January 30, 2015, 09:26:36 AM
Really jags, you think so?
How would that help them qualify for D1 nationals and make it to the AA round? And if they could do that, why aren't they doing it at the UW or any other D1 school in higher numbers? We should at least be seeing many D2 and D3 national champs (which could potentially equate to D1 AA) from our in-state guys if the lack of D1 schools was the case, but we aren't. A few D2, D3 champs here and there, but certainly not enough to predict "AA's shoot up big time".
I don't think the lack of D1 colleges is what's holding our numbers down. Guys who want to be an AA bad enough can find a school willing to take them.
well they have twice the population, so they should on average have at least twice as many AA's... they have 10 times more D1 schools, so that many more schools recruiting in state talent. The more guys you have wrestling for a D1 school the better odds you will have of getting an AA. I never tracked our D2 and D3 wrestlers... do you have that info?
think of it like this, that info posted early says we have had 82 AA's in 60 years, double our population should put us at 160... now give us 4 or 5 more D1 schools and they sprinkle in an additional 1 or 2 aa's a year we are at around 250 in that 60 year span... 4 times what we have...
Lets toss the population argument out the window, Base on that logic, shouldn't California and New York be producing the most AA year after year?
One questions I might throw out there
Are all of Wisconsin's best wrestlers actually going to a D1 school where they have a chance to become a D1 AA?
Or are grades a factor?
Or maybe a 3 time state champ decides a 4 year D1 school is not for him and wants to go to a tech and become a welder.
I personally know of a 2 time champ and a 4 time place winner that had D1 offers and simply decided he did not want to go to college, started working right out of high school, He is now a journeyman electrician and very happy with his decision.
I think that kid would have made it to AA status if he had went to a D1
So many different factors play into these stats.
Quote from: heavy9278 on January 30, 2015, 10:50:56 AM
Lets toss the population argument out the window, Base on that logic, shouldn't California and New York be producing the most AA year after year?
One questions I might throw out there
Are all of Wisconsin's best wrestlers actually going to a D1 school where they have a chance to become a D1 AA?
Or are grades a factor?
Or maybe a 3 time state champ decides a 4 year D1 school is not for him and wants to go to a tech and become a welder.
I personally know of a 2 time champ and a 4 time place winner that had D1 offers and simply decided he did not want to go to college, started working right out of high school, He is now a journeyman electrician and very happy with his decision.
I think that kid would have made it to AA status if he had went to a D1
So many different factors play into these stats.
sorry, but we are a good state for wrestling and when compared to another good state for wrestling having 6,000,000 seems to matter. Having 4-10 D1 schools to choose from and still stay home seems to matter. How many kids wrestle for say.... Stevens Point because the UW didn't work out for them and they didn't want to move another state to wrestle/go to school. Yet if we had 3 or 4 other D1 schools like Iowa, Michigan and Illinois do we would have more kids wrestling D-1 and more potential for AA's
One thing that I have not seen brought up is the WIAA restrictions. They have loosened some lately with more summer contact but that is relatively new. In addition to the JHI my understanding is that MN allows for year round contact. If you can have open mat with coaching year round you have a much better opportunity to build a HS program. I am not sure what the other states do but I suspect they are not as restrictive at the WIAA. I have studied the WIAA rules in and out and If schools are following the rules it is tough to develop a program outside of the season.
I think WI has closed the gap some and I think our top level wrestlers are continuing to get better. I recall when we used to have our A, B, and C champs wrestle the MN champs and it was not pretty. What concerns me most about WI is the (middle class) of wrestling in WI and I am not talking about economics. What really seems to be missing at a lot of schools is the tough 4 year kid who wrestles a year or 2 of varsity. Those kids just do not seem to be wrestling at a lot of schools. I have talked to many other coaches and they agree. Compared to the 80's when I wrestled our better varsity kids are better and our low end varsity kids are way worse. Staggering numbers of pins and forfeits in the average dual. Most duals do not even seem to take an hour. Of course when you go to team state the depth and competition is better but a lot of your Friday night duals do not have a lot of competitive matches.
I think the way JV is handled in Wrestling hurts the sport. Any other sport has an actual JV team, they keep score and records through the year. In wrestling it is rag tag just matching up kids for exhibitions. I think if they actually made JV a team, where kids make weight and an actual dual with a team score happens it would generate more interest. Coaches and wrestlers would be more active trying to fill out dual meet teams. Every kid wants to be a part of something by creating an actual JV team it gives these kids that are not on varsity yet that sense of belonging to something. Kids that do not make the JV can wrestle exhibition matches before the JV starts if both teams have enough wrestlers.
Right now JV wrestlers are taken for granted and kids don't want to be a part of the sport that is looked down on. There needs to be more importance placed on the JV team to give those kids that are not on varsity something to achieve.
I think the same thing should happen in tournaments. The set weight classes need to be used not matching kids up close in weight like a youth tournament. Have each team enter a guy at each weight and keep a team score like any varsity tournament. Guys that are not on the JV team can be matched up within the weight class.
I understand that many teams would not field a full JV Team, the hope would be that a kid not wrestling would see that open spot as an opportunity and try out for the team. I am also in favor of reducing weight classes, I think 10 sounds about right. I know the reduced opportunity crowd always get on this, but it would reduce the number of forfeits and increase the number of wrestlers on JV (too many kids are on varsity just to fill a spot). It is my opinion, that a forfeit or bye is a missed opportunity. Kids don't want to ride a bus for an hour to have 4 forfeits in a dual, they want to wrestler. Reducing the weight classes will generate more competition in the state and in the wrestling room thus increasing actual wrestling opportunities not just a roster spot to get forfeits. I know this will never happen the wrestling community is resistant to change just wishful thinking, but imagine going to a wrestling tournament in which every varsity team has a full roster.
I don't think any coach would disagree with you that we should have full JV rosters and perhaps extras. Unfortunately that isn't happening at many/most schools no matter how hard the coach and wrestlers recruit for the sport. I'm certainly not giving up, but I understand the reality of the sport. Finding 14 guys who are evenly spaced by weight class is hard enough for varsity, much less to double it for JV.
Opening up JHI could certainly help, at the very least in the mid-lower weights.
Reducing weight classes isn't something I would like, but looking around at scores, it might be something that should be accepted. I believe the rule was really set in motion by big schools in big wrestling states. That's fine, it doesn't mean that every state should have to follow suit exactly. Probably could/should start a totally different thread for the above ideas.
I don't see how Wi. having more d one programs gives us a potential for more aa. The ncaa awards 80 all -american honors per yr. period