Would kids moving to clubs help or hurt the future?

[Numbers]

The "club" sport teams would need to keep school district or community boundaries in order to not crush the sport in my opinion.

The topic not discussed is would non-WIAA wrestling continue to have more than one division?  If so, what type of enrollment count or criteria separates the divisions?

[bulldog]

Bulldog.......you answered the question with a statement that rings true.

How many schools have swimming, gymnastics and those other clubs sport types. I would bet many more schools have wrestling than those sports.

Certainly clubs will do alot ofmgood but if youngomclub wrestling I seriously doubt that all the clubs in Wisconsin could handle handle that amount of kids.

If only 10% of the kids go to clubs and some clubs have waiting list I doubt they can handle 50% of all,high schoolmwrestlers along with the youth. Space and time would be a concern.

Clubs are awesome to say the least, not sure if they are built to take over the state of wrestling

littleguy301 you may have kind of a questionable argument. How many schools had swimming and gymnastics years ago? I don't remember many schools having these programs years ago. So has the in school programs of these sports gone away because of clubs or has the interest of these sports increased due to the presence of clubs? I know gymnastics, swimming and boys volleyball is on the increase and there are more club programs for each of these sports.

Also there seems to be a circular argument on this forum. I see the argument that club wrestling will hurt the sport but then every year there is the argument to reduce the number of weight classes because there are not enough kids out to fill the weight classes. I see the argument that we want increased participation but in the same breath we want to reduce the opportunity for competition. Looking at these club tournaments that have popped up I don't see that limitation. You could have 3 kids at the same weight class compete in the tournament. Everyone participates.

But what about the crowning of a state champ some may ask...okay...I am looking at Nuway's state based nationals. Every athlete that signs up will get in.

There is an obvious negative. Recruiting will become rampant. The best kids will be scouted and be recruited to join the best clubs. Competition will be ramped up to a higher level to be part of the best team. We would see parents driving their kids hours to be on the best club team. And yes...the not so serious athlete will not come out for the sport.

Yep...it is a negative. So...time to take a look at the HS sport and make it more interesting...more involved. When I see an opportunity to grow the sport at the HS level right now and schools are half assing a season it tells me a change has to happen. And maybe that change is a movement to club.

BigG...interesting stat. Is that accurate or a guess? I would guess a larger percentage (say 50%-75%) of current HS wrestlers got involved due to club wrestling. So you have them in club from K-6th grade...maybe 8th grade. Do you think the money suddenly disappears because they enter HS? I would guess HS wrestler club involvement drops off because in HS the don't have the time to do HS sports and club sports. I have no proof on this but I would bet the bigger percent of HS wrestlers were involved in club at the youth level. I will have to think on that one a bit more.

[DocWrestling]

I am interested in what information anyone is basing the statement that going to club would hurt the sport? I look at sports like gymnastics, swimming, and other sports that have a strong club following and it doesn't seem to be hurting those sports. From what I have read, club gymnastics and swimming are recruited more by colleges than their HS equivalent. Looking at club gymnastics the athlete benefits by having access to a gym that is dedicated to their sport. Not shoved in the corner of the school only to be pushed aside as soon as spring baseball starts up.

Doc...I appreciate your comments but is HS sports really about getting your hand raised? Or is it about learning some valuable life lessons? Kids who work at the sport and put the time in will get their hands raised.

3boys...I also see your point...I too have seen the HS principle push kids to wrestling because "they have no place else to be"...but is that really what wrestling should be? "HEY...I can't compete at anything else so...wrestling".

I can tell you that our school no longer has a gymnastics team because of club sports. We still have swimming though.  It is fine to have both in my mind.  We have hockey players that never play high school hockey as they play club hockey through high school.  This happens more and more with soccer in Milwaukee area.  Losing a few athletes is not an issue as it gives options.

I absolutely do not believe wrestling is about getting your hand raised and I have the most respect for those that go .500 or less but wrestle all 4 years.  But that is an adult perspective.  I do know that many wrestlers dominate in there HS rooms but can struggle at clubs with the upgraded talent level.  Those kids want to get better but I also know the majority need the reward of going to HS events and getting their hand raised to keep them going.  Take away all the easy wins and I do believe you will continue to lose wrestlers.

We need both for the health of the sport.  These clubs did not exist when I wrestled.  Kids today are lucky with those options especially those that are not multisport athletes.  Clubs make wrestlers better.  HS wrestling allows wrestling to be a sport and exist as close to mainstream as it will ever get.  Without HS wrestling the sport would become very marginalized.

[bulldog]

Doc...I agree it would be great to have both. And I hope both can thrive together. But club wrestling is a business and good clubs are going to do things to grow their business. Take a look at Askren. The guy is marketing. He (and other clubs) post on social media, they work the sport in the "off season".

What is HS wrestling doing to grow the sport? Recruiting kids in the hallway? Can't do that during Covid can we? HS wrestling may not be a business but it needs to consider growing the audience.

When I see an opportunity to grow the sport at the HS level right now and school wrestling is half assing a season it tells me a change has to happen. And maybe that change is a movement to club.

Saturday morning I sat in my home office and watched two dual meets that I would not have watched previously. I would not have gotten into my car and driven to Fondy or out to Hortonville to watch the dual. But I did get online on Saturday morning and watched. So did both my sons who are off to college. Wisconsin HS wrestling added 3 sets of eyes to 2 duels this weekend. And what did we see? A camera broadcasting two guys on a mat.

Nobody could take the time to get on their phone to post the line-up, who was wrestling, what the match score was, what the dual meet score was. But I give these teams credit...at least they did that. How many schools are going to do nothing? I posted a topic on this forum asking for a list of live stream duels. ZERO responses. Not one single person on this forum could take the time to share their live stream information.

But we want the sport to grow. BULL! As we tell our athletes...if you want things to get better some effort has to be put in. It takes 2 minutes to set up a facebook page for your wrestling program, every team has a manager that can live stream the dual with their cell phone. But how many are? It takes 15 minutes to post something on the team facebook page or to have a manager take photos and post them but I wonder how many teams actually have a social media page to promote their sport. Wisconsin has WiWrestling and Central Wisconsin Wrestling promoting the sport and I see more information about college than HS on these sites. Why is that. It is because college makes the information more accessible than HS. I can't get a HS coach to email me the results out of a dual.

Back when you and I wrestled the HS coach called in the results to 2-3 tv stations and a radio station...minimum. Now most of the time we don't even see the results on trackwrestling. In a time when it is so easy to share information wrestling has gone backwards from what they were doing in the 80s.

[DocWrestling]

Bulldog,

I agree with everything you have stated.

I also tried to watch more wrestling with the streaming but it was brutal.   

I cannot believe that schools have not done more to make these broadcasts better with this opportunity.  It is bad for all sports.  Take a look at what a school like River Falls does with their Youtube channel even before Covid.  I cannot figure out why every school does not do that

[bulldog]

Bulldog,

I agree with everything you have stated.

I also tried to watch more wrestling with the streaming but it was brutal.   

I cannot believe that schools have not done more to make these broadcasts better with this opportunity.  It is bad for all sports.  Take a look at what a school like River Falls does with their Youtube channel even before Covid.  I cannot figure out why every school does not do that

RIGHT??? It is so easy.  Yep...Kevin Black did a great job. Keep in mind he was running Victory School of wrestling before he took over coaching at RF so he had the business/marketing mindset already.

inappropriate term3, I even offered a couple teams that I would do it for them. Before Covid I offered to come to schools and take photos, stream meets, post scores on the social media page. I got crickets. Zero takers.

So...when the forum is filled with people saying "is club wrestling hurting the future" or "we need to reduce weight classes/opportunities" or "the sport is dying" then I hope we step back and look at what could have been done with a little internal effort. I understand this year is "different"...Okay...but when I see teams that have built a program skinfold the same number of kids as last year vs one of the biggest schools in Wisconsin had 29 athletes last year but has  9 athletes skinfolded this year it tells me something.

It tells the schools that have retained numbers even in Covid have built programs, have built loyalty and have built support. And I know these programs embrace off season and club participation. The school with 9...well...I guess I would be moving my boys to club this year as well.  In the case of the school with 9...it must be club that is killing the sport...(said sarcastically)

[Wrestling Novice]

Bulldog is spot on. 

It doesn't take much to make an improvement.  I made sure to share my opinions with the Muskego AD.  Simple improvements that make the viewing much more enjoyable.  From announcing the wrestlers and the score.  The other suggestion I would make is to have JV wrestle first, then Varsity.  That way we don't have a split screen, and  can focus on one match.

There are plenty of knowledgeable parents and former wrestlers that would be willing to help with this. 

[bulldog]

Thanks Wrestling Novice. I appreciate your comments. I shared my thoughts with several HS coaches. I thought I was totally off base when I brought these ideas up to a few coaches (and I brought these suggestions up pre-Covid as well). I got zero response from the coaches.

So...coaches...we know you are on here. What's up? What do you need help with?

How about we start here...Tell us where to find your live stream and your matches that will be live streamed and I will get that information out to over at least 2,500 - 3,000 Wisconsin High School wrestling fans in moments. And I believe WiWrestling reaches over 13k with their social media page. I bet they would post the information as well (sorry Tom...don't mean to speak for you)

Want to grow the sport...here is a start.

[mojo123]

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaW0zlPmq5c-RV375rGDc-g  Oak Creek High School Athletics Livestream Page.

Oak Creek vs. Pewaukee 12/9/2020 6pm
Oak Creek vs. Arrowhead 12/23/2020 7pm
Oak Creek vs West Allis Central 1/6/2021 7pm
Oak Creek vs Kenosha Tremper 1/21/2021 7pm

Looking forward to seeing the increased viewership & much thanks to having a supportive AD!

[OshWest]

Here is the entire FVA, for any sport you wish to view.

https://www.fvasports.net/page/show/6066627-fva-livestream-links

[CityGuy]

These are great points bulldog. Can't believe schools didn't take you up on the offer for free help?? If your in the Milwaukee area and we ever wrestle again you're welcome at my program. For anyone that wants it i'll offer my services for free to commentate your dual. I love watch wrestling and miss being on the mic. I announce basketball and wrestling events for MPS, so I got some free time. Let's give the fans a fun product to consume!

PS don't contact me if your team lays on there belly, runs away, or stalls. I don't care if there any good, just want to watch some kids get after it.

[bulldog]

Thanks mojo and OshWest. They are posted on social media and I also shared them to the Wisconsin Wrestling Online facebook page. Done. thanks again. Feel free to post or send a message anytime to CWW facebook page and we will do our best to get the information on there.

[O Harris]

Kids are looking for opportunities to wrestle. I cannot see how wrestling for a club for 3-4 months would ruin wrestling for years to come. This is basically one and done for many wrestlers that have never wrestled club before. As before you will have your wrestlers that want more and different practice partners that wrestle club. If anyone can offer more opportunities for kids to wrestle we should be thankful as some communities have no wrestling at all this year. Lets be real this year is not going to change high school wrestling for years to come. If wrestling club for one year is going to ruin wrestling for years to come there are bigger issues already in place.

[factfinder]

Our nation doesn't fund sports like other countries do so if we privatize wrestling it will lead to a slow and certain death. Our sport is funded by spectator support and sponsorships so if we eliminate our biggest fan base (high school level fans) we know longer have financial support.
Our coaches come from local seasonal wrestlers.
Our Referees come out of local season wrestlers.
Our table workers come out of local seasonal wrestlers.
Elite level wrestlers don't typically coach at the local youth level. They don't typically officiate local matches or work tables either.
Without HS wrestling we will have no college wrestling, with no college wrestling we have no RTC's, With no RTC's we lose what we have built up the last 10 years and our competitive olympic and World teams.
If we eliminate wrestling at the local level we will lose future wrestling parents that give birth to wrestlers.
Russia has less wrestlers in their entire nation as just Wisconsin has, Russia estimates they have about 5800 wrestlers from youth through senior levels.

[DarkKnight]

The talk of eliminating of high school wrestling is the silliest. But i know COVID has affected many brains, so it's allowable.