Coach Swett on point...

TomM · July 24, 2017, 06:20:44 PM

I have coached the Wisconsin Junior Greco team for more than 40 years. Wisconsin does well, not only at the junior and cadet levels, but also at the senior levels. The WWF decided the national duals were a lot of fun, but actually hurt our performance at the individual tournament ('Fargo'). We were banged up, tired and broke after the duals.
The duals are a grind. We start out with parents and athletes begging to wrestle every match and by the afternoon of the second day we are pulling wrestlers out of the stands. Eight matches in two days against the best in the country takes a toll Every match is a war and little bangs swell with continued abuse. We are good at Greco, so we keep winning and wrestling tougher and tougher teams. Matches become endurance contests and wars of attrition.
Then we ride 16 hours home. The kids limp into work or the open mat and start to get ready to go again. Every year many of them did not come back for the individual tournament. They were sore, tired, injured. They missed several weeks of work so they were broke. Many of them would have to come back from the individual tournament and start football right away.
Some kids love the competition and relish the physical challenge of match after match. Some of them make the world teams. Most of them are very good, but only very good high school kids. Maybe Dennis (World Champion Dennis Hall) could go most days against the best in the world, but even Dennis stormed out of the room more than once. There is a lot of pressure added to the physical challenge. Dennis did not always stay for freestyle. He was ready to go home. Maybe he wanted to breathe and take a look at his hard earned 'stop sign'. I know a lot of forum experts wondered why he did not stay. Of course they did not see him when he got off the bus.
Try to think of a round robin where the state champion is going to lose twice. That is Fargo. If you have never been there, you can't imagine it. Every match is one of your all time toughest. Every year I look at our team and appreciate how much the program improves, but when we get to Fargo it is obvious that everyone else is improving also.
This all comes down to math. How often can athletes compete against the highest level? How often should they make their ideal weight? What is the number of Wisconsin kids that will compete in the rarified air of the 1% who compete at Division One? Is this kid you are so sure of, one out of a hundred? Then you have to realize the bottom of the 1% never make the team. Only a hand full find their way on a team. Then 8 out of 32 make All-American and 1 out of 8 wins. Then we start over and all those one per centers try to make a world team. The world team includes more than five years of athletes so the champion becomes even more rare.
Wrestlers have to ignore math all the time. They do not have to beat everybody just the guy on the mat with them now. They don't have to beat him all the time just this time. I cannot win all the time, but I can win this time. How can we not love that attitude? We need to remember running into a brick wall does not make you tougher. Learning how to open the door helps you win. Recognizing the difference between walls and doors improves your odds of winning. Some of our best practices are taking a swim. REST is a major part of training.

- Keith Swett
Seymour, Wisconsin
(Administrators note: Or know as just 'Swett' to all the Junior National team members for more than 40 years.)

aarons23 · July 24, 2017, 08:32:29 PM

So in Wisconsin our guys can't handle what the best states in the country are doing? I call b.s......By not going to the duals we are not giving our wrestlers the opportunities to train and compete like the best in the country are doing.

Many of the wwf coaches do not even believe that not doing the duals is a good thing.

GradeTough · July 24, 2017, 10:46:33 PM

Keith Swett,

Thanks for writing that email to explain why the WWF does not currently send a team to duals. Has the WWF reviewed and researched why other States are able to field teams and have success in the individual tournaments?
I often wonder if our kids here in WI are training mentally to endure or really properly prepare for the battle on a consistent basis. You are correct that rest is a key ingredient to success, especially in a combative sport. Maybe those neighboring States have a process that allows for peak performance that includes the proper amounts of rest and recovery.

I truly find it difficult like others to understand why our neighbors have great results on a national level...repeatedly, yet we struggle or end up in the middle of the pack. Can you possibly provide some further insight or even suggestions that could lead to change and improvement?

It would be great to help change the culture because it is obvious there is talent in WI. Maybe a push in the right direction could help.

dman · July 25, 2017, 07:27:25 AM

I get what Coach Swett is saying and appreciate all the WWF does for the kids in WI. To me it is about culture. WI has a different wrestling culture than our neighbors...thus, WI needs to run differently than other states. It is not about who is stronger or better at coaching, it is about working within the culture while trying to improve. It is just like how companies run...cultures are so different at each place; thus, you can't run each company exactly the same.
Anyway, to get into some of the specific arguments..."why can other states do it without getting beat up?"...to me the answer is in culture and demographics...oh and as some said math...yes even math. Unfortunately it is clear that our neighbors have more wrestlers to choose from and wrestle at both duals and Fargo...thus, of course they are not going to get all beat up like WI does. In the past we clearly tried to run WI wrestling like our neighbors and it didn't work...so kudos to the WWF and it's coaches for trying something different to improve.

For those that seem to complain about everything...you think you can do it better, get out there and coach...get out there and apply for board positions...get out there and do something instead of complaining on a message board about the people who are out there doing those things.

bman · July 25, 2017, 10:35:19 AM

Quote from: dman on July 25, 2017, 07:27:25 AM
I get what Coach Swett is saying and appreciate all the WWF does for the kids in WI. To me it is about culture. WI has a different wrestling culture than our neighbors...thus, WI needs to run differently than other states. It is not about who is stronger or better at coaching, it is about working within the culture while trying to improve. It is just like how companies run...cultures are so different at each place; thus, you can't run each company exactly the same.
Anyway, to get into some of the specific arguments..."why can other states do it without getting beat up?"...to me the answer is in culture and demographics...oh and as some said math...yes even math. Unfortunately it is clear that our neighbors have more wrestlers to choose from and wrestle at both duals and Fargo...thus, of course they are not going to get all beat up like WI does. In the past we clearly tried to run WI wrestling like our neighbors and it didn't work...so kudos to the WWF and it's coaches for trying something different to improve.

+1

And, thank you Coach Swett for all you have done for our wrestlers...

dman · July 25, 2017, 11:42:22 AM

Quote from: getyourpoints on July 25, 2017, 09:25:01 AM
dman,
I agree with you 100% its a cultural concern for sure Not a WWF issue , and thats in the class room as well. So based on your post dman i looked up class room data of Wisconsin and the states that typically are ahead of us at Fargo and the results are almost the same as on the mat.
The Chronicle of Higher Education conducts study's and compiles college graduation rates nation wide. Below I pulled the top preforming states at Fargo and put a list in ranking order of what % of kids from each state go to college graduate in four years.
1. Penn 42%
2. IL 40%
3. MN 35%
4. MI 34%
5. Iowa 34%
6. Ind 33%
7. Ohio 32%
8. WI 28%

I personally think its time to change our culture, we don't push our kids to be successful at the rate of the rest of the Midwest. Lets be honest we lead the nation in drinking alcohol, we are one of the drunkest states in the nation. And all of the other drunkest states have our identical results. Don't get me wrong I enjoy a good time just as much as the next guy, but it always takes a back seat to our family's success.
I love when WI family's tell me that money holds them back from being able to be better when we spend more money on crap then almost any other state. About two years ago I was helping a committed young wrestler get to clubs and tournaments both legalistically and financially because his parents dint have or want to put the time or money to help there son. So one day I pull up to his house to pick him up and the family has a brand new 4 wheeler for a hunting trip and the wrestler canceled going to a tournament he had trained three months for so he could go on a youth hunt.
Again I take my kids hunting and we enjoy those same lifestyle and cultural experiences but never before the success of our family. Not being raised in WI I am sure my value system may seem extreme or over the top but nationally i would bet its viewed as normal.
By the way dman a few of us on this thread do a ton to try and help wrestling around the state, not saying you were calling us out but just saying.

I agree with a lot of what you said. I too think a lot of our "culture" is driven by us as adults and parents. We (Parents) need to take responsibility for that, which unfortunately it feels is happening less and less. There are other factors as well when it comes to your numbers that effect wrestling in our state....first and foremost, we only have one D1 school with wrestling in our state....and only a handful of other opportunities to wrestle after high school. Compare that to the other states that you listed above. Another good comparison would be to look at the make up of the dual teams for each of those states...i.e., how much depth did they have, talent, talent of the depth, etc...I can guarantee it looks different to what WI has and/or could look like. Thus, again, that is why it is hard to treat our state the same as others. I feel it is important to use the data to compare to where we are at, but I don't think we need to emulate "exactly" what other states do because we are not exactly like those other states. I think the WWF does a good job looking at best practices from other states and federations and does what it thinks is best for our state. I would love nothing more than to have a dual team that is 3 deep at each weight with all state champs; however, we don't and probably won't any time soon like those other states...but I do feel that we are doing what we can right now and it is going in the right direction. I think we should continue to drive kids (increase numbers) to wrestle in high school, freestyle and Greco...as well as work on how we behave as parents and what we are doing to both hinder and help the sport.

Coach V · July 25, 2017, 12:37:48 PM

Enough on the drinking already. Look at population sizes. That may help you understand. When a person with 40 years experience States his opinion and we still blast about how much we drink and how intelligent our kids are the answer is clear. Some of you have to be right. Have to have it your way. You clearly will not help the system.But have to have it your way. Well this isn't M Donald's guys. Some aren't from Wisconsin but went to school in Wisconsin and live in Wisconsin but continue to bash the state. All I can say is look in the mirror fellas.

madeyson · July 25, 2017, 01:45:08 PM

***I apologize if this data is hard to read, I did my best to get it in here in an easy-to-follow format, but I may have failed:)***

COLEKADEN got me thinking, had 30 minutes to burn so I put this together. In my opinion, if you want to improve you need to find out the real reason why others may be doing better and then make improvements. So here is the data I came up with. I included the vast majority of the strong wrestling states in the U.S. I did not include CA - because that is a complete beast. The basis for my analysis - 1) Does population have an impact on success and 2) Does density of population have an impact on success. I think took the placement for both styles for both Cadet and Junior from Fargo this year:

             Cadet Fargo Place    Junior Fargo Place    Fargo Team
   State     State Size     Popluation/   FS   GR    FS   GR    Avg. Placement
Population (Square Miles) Square Mile

IL    12,800,000     57,915     221    1   1    1   1    1
MN    5,520,000     86,943     63    4   2    4   5    3.75
PA    12,780,000     46,055     277    3   3    5   8    4.75
WI    5,770,000     65,498     88    10 6    11   2    7.25
MI    9,920,000     40,162     247    9 8    7   6    7.5
MO    6,093,000     69,704     87    6 11    9   12    9.5
IA    3,130,000     56,292     56    5 15    3   17    10
OH    11,610,000    45,825     253    2 19    2   26    12.25
IN    6,630,000     36,418     182 15 14    6   29    16
NJ    8,940,000     8,792     1017    8 29    8   32    19.25

My observations
- Between this group of states, both age groups, both styles we were fourth - I would say that it is pretty darn good.
- Yes, if you only look at freestyle we would not be as high, but what are our goals as a state - Olympic/Worlds or college?
- WI is at an extreme disadvantage to a majority of the states on this list of just 88 people per square mile - Illinois is at 221, PA is at 277, and MI is at 247
- Yes, Minnesota has less people per square mile (63), and they had better results at Fargo - we can look at what they are doing and see if there is anything to learn

Not sure there are any hard conclusions - but I think looking at the data can definitely have an impact. Part of Wisconsin culture is the fact that we have a lower population - and we are spread out more then most. What can we do to over come that? Combat is running a once a month Greco training program that brings kids in from throughout the state - from my perspective that has had a HUGE impact. Could someone else do the same thing for freestyle?

I am not saying the duals are a good or bad thing or they would or would not help, I do know that there is no one silver bullet - and the duals by themselves will not make dramatic (if any) improvements. And for anyone that thinks I am against the duals - trust me, from a personal perspective - if my wrestler would be good enough to make one a team - he would absolutely LOVE it - but doesn't mean it is right for the state.

dman · July 25, 2017, 02:05:28 PM

Great post!

Barou · July 25, 2017, 03:10:49 PM

Minnesota is doing one valuable distinctive thing different than Wisconsin and many of us have argued that it is the PRIMARY reason for the huge gap in wrestling talent between our states. Pretty sure most of you know what it is. Apparently, it is not worthy of much (or any) discussion within the Wisconsin wrestling coach's community. As far as I recall, it has never been proposed to the WIAA.

One can hope.

aarons23 · July 25, 2017, 03:19:25 PM

Quote from: madeyson on July 25, 2017, 01:45:08 PM
***I apologize if this data is hard to read, I did my best to get it in here in an easy-to-follow format, but I may have failed:)***

COLEKADEN got me thinking, had 30 minutes to burn so I put this together. In my opinion, if you want to improve you need to find out the real reason why others may be doing better and then make improvements. So here is the data I came up with. I included the vast majority of the strong wrestling states in the U.S. I did not include CA - because that is a complete beast. The basis for my analysis - 1) Does population have an impact on success and 2) Does density of population have an impact on success. I think took the placement for both styles for both Cadet and Junior from Fargo this year:

             Cadet Fargo Place    Junior Fargo Place    Fargo Team
   State     State Size     Popluation/   FS   GR    FS   GR    Avg. Placement
Population (Square Miles) Square Mile

IL    12,800,000     57,915     221    1   1    1   1    1
MN    5,520,000     86,943     63    4   2    4   5    3.75
PA    12,780,000     46,055     277    3   3    5   8    4.75
WI    5,770,000     65,498     88    10 6    11   2    7.25
MI    9,920,000     40,162     247    9 8    7   6    7.5
MO    6,093,000     69,704     87    6 11    9   12    9.5
IA    3,130,000     56,292     56    5 15    3   17    10
OH    11,610,000    45,825     253    2 19    2   26    12.25
IN    6,630,000     36,418     182 15 14    6   29    16
NJ    8,940,000     8,792     1017    8 29    8   32    19.25

My observations
- Between this group of states, both age groups, both styles we were fourth - I would say that it is pretty darn good.
- Yes, if you only look at freestyle we would not be as high, but what are our goals as a state - Olympic/Worlds or college?
- WI is at an extreme disadvantage to a majority of the states on this list of just 88 people per square mile - Illinois is at 221, PA is at 277, and MI is at 247
- Yes, Minnesota has less people per square mile (63), and they had better results at Fargo - we can look at what they are doing and see if there is anything to learn

Not sure there are any hard conclusions - but I think looking at the data can definitely have an impact. Part of Wisconsin culture is the fact that we have a lower population - and we are spread out more then most. What can we do to over come that? Combat is running a once a month Greco training program that brings kids in from throughout the state - from my perspective that has had a HUGE impact. Could someone else do the same thing for freestyle?

I am not saying the duals are a good or bad thing or they would or would not help, I do know that there is no one silver bullet - and the duals by themselves will not make dramatic (if any) improvements. And for anyone that thinks I am against the duals - trust me, from a personal perspective - if my wrestler would be good enough to make one a team - he would absolutely LOVE it - but doesn't mean it is right for the state.

Very good assessment...with one disagreement. The duals will make a larger impact than you give it credit. Simply put our kids do not get my enough actual mat time in the international styles. The duals can increase that by up to 20 matches. We need more actual matches to be properly prepared for tournaments like Fargo. Most of our kids are getting maybe 3 matches prior to state- a couple more at Northen plains and then Fargo....talk to those at Fargo and see what kind of numbers they have.

madeyson · July 25, 2017, 03:26:58 PM

Quote from: shakerag on July 25, 2017, 03:21:29 PM
Quote from: Barou on July 25, 2017, 03:10:49 PM
Minnesota is doing one valuable distinctive thing different than Wisconsin and many of us have argued that it is the PRIMARY reason for the huge gap in wrestling talent between our states. Pretty sure most of you know what it is. Apparently, it is not worthy of much (or any) discussion within the Wisconsin wrestling coach's community. As far as I recall, it has never been proposed to the WIAA.

One can hope.

What is it for those of us not in the know?

Pretty sure he is referencing Junior High Inclusion - but I could be wrong.

MNbadger · July 25, 2017, 04:26:09 PM

Nice job on the data, madeyson. I have always looked to compare MN and WI. Similar population size (WI slightly larger), similar demographics for the most part. But I think it is cultural. I have always hesitated to say it so I am glad gyp and dman were willing. Sometimes I get drilled for this kind of thing on here. I grew up in WI and know it well.

aarons23 · July 25, 2017, 05:05:03 PM

I just have to point out that according to 1 study Wisconsin drinks 8 gallons more beer per person (21+) per year than Mn does. Wisconsin is at 36 gallons and Mn is at 28 gallons. North Dakota was at 45.

marshman · July 25, 2017, 07:05:53 PM

Quote from: getyourpoints on July 25, 2017, 06:22:00 PM
Quote from: aarons23 on July 25, 2017, 05:05:03 PM
I just have to point out that according to 1 study Wisconsin drinks 8 gallons more beer per person (21+) per year than Mn does. Wisconsin is at 36 gallons and Mn is at 28 gallons. North Dakota was at 45.
That fits the data I just updates, ND only has 23%! Of there kids graduate college in 4yrs. I was off on Iowa I miss read the info, I had them at 34% they are actually at a 41% graduate rate.

Yet North Dakota has a higher per capita income then Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Ohio,Indiana and Missouri.