New Wrestling "Uniforms"

[ramjet]

Oh see I was missing the point that the shirt and board short will soften the emotional traumathat of being beat up after a day of wrestling beasts or loosing every match. 

I would like to know why ramjet thinks he knows more than many of us that have wrestled, raised wrestlers and coached plus a small little group that manages the entire wrestling community?

Your son wrestled and you feel all kids should be just like him, newsflash: they aren't.

Well how do you get that from what I posted. It's simple I have zero issues with what uniform any team chooses. By the way I do not bring your sons I to this do not bring mine in. I have no idea what he thinks about the onesy (what his mom called it once )  never asked him he never brought it up.

"small little group that manages the entire wrestling community?"-BIGOIL

Really? this is what you think? I bet the thousands of parents and coaches and directors and ADs would love to have these few manage thier programs.......

In fact BIGOIL you are the one who has the attitude problem.

My issue with the uniform option is this; Many many times the uniform issue is held as a "silver bullet" or a "magic bullet" that will cure all woes of wrestling participation. Yet when I ask what data other than emotional response does anyone have that this will add allot of wrestlers to this sport? Nothing not one study or even emperical data that retention would be higher. Come on BIGOIL you wrestled you have wrestling kids just like me yea I wrestled coached and frankly the singlet was not the kindest to me......if you get my drift. That was not even on the radar. But I do not think its the most pressing issue in this sport in any way shape or form. But folks like you and few others feel it will reshape this sport into a greatly popular sport that we will have to turn kids away from. If we change the uniform? Me I am being realistic for several reasons my experience is not just with my son but with many many many many camps tournaments and direct dialogue with coaches I have broached this subject with. I have this opinion based on hundreds of hours of conversation and no formal verbal surveying wrestlers non wrestlers coaches and parents. Participation is not as simple as change the uniform.

As I have emphasized before community and culture create an environment that embraces certain sports. It is not easy or simple as one solution or issue......I can cite programs within this state that have tremendous participation and success. I have seen participation grow in areas like EauClaire because of Crass wrestling I suspect other areas such As Point where Dennis Hall runs camps. Askren with allot of effort and programs has increased the participation in the geographical areas that surround the gyms they run.  Now Ben likes the idea but I wonder if kids come to his camps only because he allows a different uniform? I can cite Youth and High School programs Like Mineral Point, Coleman, Oconto Falls , Wittenberg, BayPort, Kaukauna, Starford these are just a few. I hardly doubt it is a ONE ISSUE solution or in areas where the programs are hanging on by a thread are ONE ISSUE or solution away from success.

So too bad if you feel I am missing something here I am not but I am asking everyone to focus and work together on the BIG PICTURE not just a single issue thinking it's the magic bullet.

As a step maybe it helps, time will tell I find it difficult to think that we have such a vain group of kids and although my comments was toungue and cheek I was trying to make that point.

I do not care what  a wrestler is wearing the pain and emotional trauma that they experience getting the cow dung beat out of them for a season that uniform is NOT going to make them LOVE wrestling.

I often ask myself looking for an answer; Why would a Jr high or High school kid rather sit on the bench on a basketball team rarely play when they could go out for wrestling and wrestle every match,(on some teams)?

Answer that for me heck anyone reading this should answer that for me.

Sure the uniform can develope (basketball did;remember the shorty shorts?) nothing wrong with that at all but during that development please let's NOT forget ALL the issues.

[bigoil]

Oh see I was missing the point that the shirt and board short will soften the emotional traumathat of being beat up after a day of wrestling beasts or loosing every match. 

I would like to know why ramjet thinks he knows more than many of us that have wrestled, raised wrestlers and coached plus a small little group that manages the entire wrestling community?

Your son wrestled and you feel all kids should be just like him, newsflash: they aren't.

Well how do you get that from what I posted. It's simple I have zero issues with what uniform any team chooses. By the way I do not bring your sons I to this do not bring mine in. I have no idea what he thinks about the onesy (what his mom called it once )  never asked him he never brought it up.

"small little group that manages the entire wrestling community?"-BIGOIL

Really? this is what you think? I bet the thousands of parents and coaches and directors and ADs would love to have these few manage thier programs.......

In fact BIGOIL you are the one who has the attitude problem.

My issue with the uniform option is this; Many many times the uniform issue is held as a "silver bullet" or a "magic bullet" that will cure all woes of wrestling participation. Yet when I ask what data other than emotional response does anyone have that this will add allot of wrestlers to this sport? Nothing not one study or even emperical data that retention would be higher. Come on BIGOIL you wrestled you have wrestling kids just like me yea I wrestled coached and frankly the singlet was not the kindest to me......if you get my drift. That was not even on the radar. But I do not think its the most pressing issue in this sport in any way shape or form. But folks like you and few others feel it will reshape this sport into a greatly popular sport that we will have to turn kids away from. If we change the uniform? Me I am being realistic for several reasons my experience is not just with my son but with many many many many camps tournaments and direct dialogue with coaches I have broached this subject with. I have this opinion based on hundreds of hours of conversation and no formal verbal surveying wrestlers non wrestlers coaches and parents. Participation is not as simple as change the uniform.

As I have emphasized before community and culture create an environment that embraces certain sports. It is not easy or simple as one solution or issue......I can cite programs within this state that have tremendous participation and success. I have seen participation grow in areas like EauClaire because of Crass wrestling I suspect other areas such As Point where Dennis Hall runs camps. Askren with allot of effort and programs has increased the participation in the geographical areas that surround the gyms they run.  Now Ben likes the idea but I wonder if kids come to his camps only because he allows a different uniform? I can cite Youth and High School programs Like Mineral Point, Coleman, Oconto Falls , Wittenberg, BayPort, Kaukauna, Starford these are just a few. I hardly doubt it is a ONE ISSUE solution or in areas where the programs are hanging on by a thread are ONE ISSUE or solution away from success.

So too bad if you feel I am missing something here I am not but I am asking everyone to focus and work together on the BIG PICTURE not just a single issue thinking it's the magic bullet.

As a step maybe it helps, time will tell I find it difficult to think that we have such a vain group of kids and although my comments was toungue and cheek I was trying to make that point.

I do not care what  a wrestler is wearing the pain and emotional trauma that they experience getting the cow dung beat out of them for a season that uniform is NOT going to make them LOVE wrestling.

I often ask myself looking for an answer; Why would a Jr high or High school kid rather sit on the bench on a basketball team rarely play when they could go out for wrestling and wrestle every match,(on some teams)?

Answer that for me heck anyone reading this should answer that for me.

Sure the uniform can develope (basketball did;remember the shorty shorts?) nothing wrong with that at all but during that development please let's NOT forget ALL the issues.

You have used your son in many posts on this subject and every time it comes up, you are the first or second to post against it. I'm open to new ideas, what is my attitude problem?

[bigoil]

UWW is responsible for managing the sport of international wrestling, the highest level of competition.

I do not feel a uniform change will revolutionize our sport but if one kid who thinks it is cool or loves MMA per school comes out, that will be 330 new wrestlers.

Why sit on a bench? Many reasons but none that make sense to any of us, we love the sport. Best to catch those sitting in 7th and 8th if possible.

[benaskren]

Guys you are fighting like children.

What we need to realize is there is not a silver bullet to greatly increase participation in the sport.  It is a tough and unforgiving sport, but as many of us know it is also a sport who teaches lessons that last a lifetime and believe it or not a lot of kids understand that. 

Anything that can take out potential roadblocks to kids joining the sport is a win for me as small as it may be.

Another roadblock which many of you guys are showing perfectly is the "you aren't tough enough for this" mentality that many wrestling people hold towards non wrestlers.  If lots of wrestling people weren't so eager to prove that new kids "aren't tough enough" then we might keep more kids out for the sport. 

Wrestling is a tough sport, makes it a lot tougher to recruit for when we keep shooting each other in the foot.

[bigG]

I sure hope we address a lot of issues in wrestling. One uniform thread does not make us think that uniforms are some easy fix. They might , however, make the sport a bit more accessible to kids who see the MMA on TV and identify with that.

Easy Ram. He wasn't talking smack about your boy.

I do know a load of middle kids who aren't big singlet fans. Will cooler unis get them to come out? Remains to be seen. I was just at a two match dual. Coulda cried. cooler unis might not make a full team; but we need numbers. That's the only for sure I get. The culture of wrestling is a good point, Ram. But some kids don't come from that culture and need to be eased in a little more slowly. Know what I mean. So, unis, combined with inviting parents to see their kids grow through wrestling is big in getting some hesitant newbies, along with dedicated coaches, less focus on weight, etc. Those things and a strong knowledge of the history of moves (best thread ever) .

[ramjet]

Ok

Let's say the uniform change brings in another 2-3 wrestlers in room of 16.

How do you retain them?

How do you convince the BB player sitting on the bench that his or her athleticism is better served on that mat with the wrestling team? That by doing so they can grow personally and learn skills, work ethic and discipline that will help them in the short term and maybe become successful in life.

[bigoil]

I don't know the answer but I have identified them to our coach who knows every kid in the community. We have 24 boys playing basketball in 8th grade, there are only 55ish in the grade, ~10 out for wrestling. At most there will be 14 freshman that make a team next year, likely down to 10 or under sophomore year and for sure less than 8 Jr/Sr year.

16 very athletic kids available. Convincing them they are one of the 16 vs the 8 is not easy even in a wrestling town. Similar numbers in 7th grade. I see kids wanting to be part of something they or sometimes parents view as the in team/sport.

[ChargerDad]

Guys you are fighting like children.

What we need to realize is there is not a silver bullet to greatly increase participation in the sport.  It is a tough and unforgiving sport, but as many of us know it is also a sport who teaches lessons that last a lifetime and believe it or not a lot of kids understand that. 

Anything that can take out potential roadblocks to kids joining the sport is a win for me as small as it may be.

Another roadblock which many of you guys are showing perfectly is the "you aren't tough enough for this" mentality that many wrestling people hold towards non wrestlers.  If lots of wrestling people weren't so eager to prove that new kids "aren't tough enough" then we might keep more kids out for the sport. 

Wrestling is a tough sport, makes it a lot tougher to recruit for when we keep shooting each other in the foot.

I agree 100%

We have to stop thinking the problem is always "them", and realize that sometime it's us..  Yea, some kids aren't tough enough, that's true, but don't tell them that, let the ones that aren't tell you!!

There is no silver bullet, and the only people I have ever heard refer to it that way are those opposed to allowing an alternate uniform!  You watch kids and now many HS teams warm up, what are they wearing??  Many of them are wearing fight shorts..  Why is that??  It's because they like the fight short and the image it portrays.. 

What we absolutely HAVE to do as a sport, is talk to the people that should be wrestling but aren't, and see why they aren't wrestling.  Then, consider those reasons and see if there are changes we can make that would have them on the mat.  If "it's too tough" is the reason, there isn't anything we can or will do, but other reasons including the uniform need to be considered.. If we want to grow the sport of wrestling, we need to stop being so concerned with what we think, and consider what the non-fan, non-participant thinks, as those are the ones that we need to "convert".  We also need to be willing to consider minor rule changes that make the sport more exciting for the spectator who may not yet be a wrestling fan, and by that I'm speaking both at the HS and collegiate level..

[ramjet]

You guys may be missing my point here so I will say it again;

I do not care what the Unifom is choose whatever works and by all means choose something that will draw more participants. I do however have problem with overstating its value and effect. I have that issue because it will make some feel complacent on the job being done.

This sport needs an infusion of excitment.

Dual meets with 14 weight classes and 5-6 FF is hurting this sport at all levels.

Innovations.

Iowa match wrestled outside to set the new attendence record it was great and the most interesting and fun wrestling event I have ever attended. Folks who NEVER attended a wrestling meet were in the stands and asking questions and getting excited and frankly if not for the big screen it was tough to see. But it was innovative and the Hawkeyes took advantage of the other event that day to draw attendence to the event and sport. It worked!

It's not just about taking kids from the BB team to wrestle it's about innovation and thinking outside the box.

W-B had a tournament or exhibition matches at half time of football game that was an outstanding idea they already had captive audience and capitalized on it to introduce the sport. Innovation

Yup tough demanding sport those if us who have done it and have kids do it, hold our head just a little higher because we know all the advantages and benefits of the sport as it relates to life later on.

Here is thing how many dual meets do the coaches sit down to match up the wrestlers to get the best wrestling on the mat? How many dual meets are held at half time of a Basket ball game or even some exhibition or youth matches to take advantage of the captive audience to get them engaged in wrestling? I have been to way to a,my matches where coaches would rather worry about winning  the dual and let wrestlers sit and take FF than wrestle them up and get mat time. Drive an hour one way two matches 5 FF on each side Dual meet over how disappointing is that?

How many school have ever scheduled an afternoon dual meet so they can allow the student body to come in and cheer the team on?

If the uniform helps GREAT but it's such small part that will have such limited effect I hate to see the rest get tossed aside because folks think that will fix it.

Private businesses seems to do better job of promoting the sport than public funded venues. This is for obvious reasons but hey AWA and Crass and others have events that promote the sport they market wrestling.

So I hope you understand the Carharts comments was to make a point THIS SPORT LACKS MARKETING and promotion.

Dana White as much as many despise him is a marketing person he knows how to promote. That and the work and sacrifice of the fighters is why that sport has grown at a record pace. Why in the heck can't we get it going and grab some of that success and grow this sport?

So you have my point it's not that I am against the uniform change just recognize its only a small part of the journey to improve the popularity of the sport.

[Ghetto]

Agreed. It's a small piece. We have to start doing things. I know that we are afraid to try things in fears that they are going to fail, but we (IMO) should start to do things before we have to jump into crisis mode. And we can't say it's on the individual teams. We need to start doing things that can be replicated without Padre-like focus, because eventually those guys go away, and then things go south.

[Houndhead]

In my opinion, removing the weight-cutting culture from high school wrestling would go a long ways towards increasing participation. High school kids need to have fun wrestling. Weight cutting is not fun. I think all of the saturdays tournaments turn some kids away also. For many that live and breath wrestling it is normal to be in a gym every saturday. For those kids we are trying to attract to the sport, giving up every saturday for 3 months might keep them from wrestling.

[Handles II]

Ram,

So do private schools do a better job of marketing wrestling than do public? You took a jab at public schools/coaches/programs there. I would just like some clarification rather than assuming what you meant. I doubt that scheduling duals during school hours and taking kids out of class would be accepted by the school board, much less parents. Neat idea, but not reality.

Curious if the private clubs you are speaking of are getting and recruiting kids that have never wrestled at a higher rate than are public school coaches and community youth clubs?  Or are they much more often getting kids who already are in the sport, kids that were already recruited in by someone else?

In a recent MN Head Coaches survey about singlets, 56% said that they are a factor in preventing kids from joining the sport.  That's only a bit more than 1/2, but maybe something to think about, I'd say especially at the M.S/JV levels. It seems once kids are "in" the sport,the wrestling is more important than the uniform. It's the getting them in the door that is the toughest part.

[DocWrestling]

Retaining wrestlers is the next problem.  First problem is getting them in the door.

1) The uniform will help some get in the door.  Some are self conscious and other simply do not want to be ridiculed by friends/classmates.  Cooler more modern uniforms will help especially if tops look more like cool jerseys in other sports with kids names on back, etc.  Kids certainly don't make fun of MMA guys for rolling around with other guys.
2) Our egos from those in the sport.  We scare away many simply by how we talk about how tough it is and our stories on how we cut weight, etc.  We need to talk about the fun and positives.  We belittle those not in wrestling with silly T-shirts, etc.  Why would others want to switch to wrestling or try it.

Wrestling is tough but as coaches we do not have to be so old-school.  Football practices are completely different now.  Make it fun. Change how you do things.  I think so many of the old school wrestling practices were tough and demanding solely to help those cut weight.  They do not need to be that anymore.  Take some FRidays/Saturdays off from practice, cut a few events and I bet you will not see a drop in production.   There is no getting around the physical nature of the sport and the ego smashing of losing one on one but....   I think both coaches and athletes would be surprised at how many kids would actually like wrestling once they tried it when they thought they would not.  Many kids do not even realize how tough they are or that they like the physical battle.

We get more in the room and we will find out that many actually like wrestling.

[bigoil]

Retaining wrestlers is the next problem.  First problem is getting them in the door.

1) The uniform will help some get in the door.  Some are self conscious and other simply do not want to be ridiculed by friends/classmates.  Cooler more modern uniforms will help especially if tops look more like cool jerseys in other sports with kids names on back, etc.  Kids certainly don't make fun of MMA guys for rolling around with other guys.
2) Our egos from those in the sport.  We scare away many simply by how we talk about how tough it is and our stories on how we cut weight, etc.  We need to talk about the fun and positives.  We belittle those not in wrestling with silly T-shirts, etc.  Why would others want to switch to wrestling or try it.

Wrestling is tough but as coaches we do not have to be so old-school.  Football practices are completely different now.  Make it fun. Change how you do things.  I think so many of the old school wrestling practices were tough and demanding solely to help those cut weight.  They do not need to be that anymore.  Take some FRidays/Saturdays off from practice, cut a few events and I bet you will not see a drop in production.   There is no getting around the physical nature of the sport and the ego smashing of losing one on one but....   I think both coaches and athletes would be surprised at how many kids would actually like wrestling once they tried it when they thought they would not.  Many kids do not even realize how tough they are or that they like the physical battle.

We get more in the room and we will find out that many actually like wrestling.

Great point on changes. We use to have 3 a day practices in Football, now that is gone. We use to hit all week, with the exception of late in the year on Thursday. Now, limited to 1 hour per week. ONE HOUR! And that isn't simply full scrimmage but anytime there is pad contact between two players, so wrap up drills, blocking, etc.

[ChargerDad]

Retaining wrestlers is the next problem.  First problem is getting them in the door.

1) The uniform will help some get in the door.  Some are self conscious and other simply do not want to be ridiculed by friends/classmates.  Cooler more modern uniforms will help especially if tops look more like cool jerseys in other sports with kids names on back, etc.  Kids certainly don't make fun of MMA guys for rolling around with other guys.
2) Our egos from those in the sport.  We scare away many simply by how we talk about how tough it is and our stories on how we cut weight, etc.  We need to talk about the fun and positives.  We belittle those not in wrestling with silly T-shirts, etc.  Why would others want to switch to wrestling or try it.

Wrestling is tough but as coaches we do not have to be so old-school.  Football practices are completely different now.  Make it fun. Change how you do things.  I think so many of the old school wrestling practices were tough and demanding solely to help those cut weight.  They do not need to be that anymore.  Take some FRidays/Saturdays off from practice, cut a few events and I bet you will not see a drop in production.   There is no getting around the physical nature of the sport and the ego smashing of losing one on one but....   I think both coaches and athletes would be surprised at how many kids would actually like wrestling once they tried it when they thought they would not.  Many kids do not even realize how tough they are or that they like the physical battle.

We get more in the room and we will find out that many actually like wrestling.

Excellent points.  I never understood how some have to spend so much time and energy declaring how tough they are, how tough the sport is, etc.. everyone in the sport knows how much work it takes, so there is no reason to tell other wrestlers..  how bout instead of talking about how tough wrestling is, everyone tries to bring a non-fan to a good HS or college dual and show them how tough it is..  that's something they might actually respect rather than a bunch of talk!  I personally think uniform changes will help, but I also think making fans out of kids will help too!  You have a young wrestler?  Have them invite a couple friends over for the night that don't wrestle and take them to a dual!  Make them fans, and let that make them want to wrestle.. why do you think kids want to play football, basketball, baseball, .etc.. it's because they are fans first..