Is fourth grade too early for ultracompetitive sports?

[Coach Ryan]

I think each individual kid is different. I have seen kids who soak up everything at 6 and 7 years old that want to compete, have fun and love the whole aspect of the sport. I have also seen kids that are not ready for this until high school.  To me you allow the kid to decide how good they want to be and at what age and then give them every opportunity within your power as a parent or coach to make them successful. 

[DocWrestling]

I think each individual kid is different. I have seen kids who soak up everything at 6 and 7 years old that want to compete, have fun and love the whole aspect of the sport. I have also seen kids that are not ready for this until high school.  To me you allow the kid to decide how good they want to be and at what age and then give them every opportunity within your power as a parent or coach to make them successful. 

I don't really disagree with this but parents must not give the kids all the power.  Many youth wrestlers or athletes do love everything about a sport and can't get enough but then in high school they have had enough and they are done.  Parents and coaches can say no and leave them wanting for more.  Again my philosophy is that we are having fun and preparing kids for high school athletics.  I don't really care about college or pro because that will just happen if it happens but odds are slim.  Others have told me that as long as the kids are having fun in youth sports, who cares if they don't wrestle/compete in high school.  I guess there is truth to that also but to me high school sports/extracurriculars are very important for motivating kids in academics, keeping them out of trouble, and teaching them many more life lessons than they got out of the sport as a youth.

[Ty Clark]

Even if your 8-year-old says he's ready to compete or all the other parents are letting their 8-year-old kids compete every weekend, doesn't mean you have to as well. You are the adult and should be smarter than your kid, and you need to be smarter than other parents and lead by example.

Yes, there are kids who can be ultra-competitive in fourth grade and continue to be through high school and college, but yours is not one of them. Statistically, your child is more likely to be a habitual criminal, so if you like playing the odds, you would be better off teaching them how to make toilet hooch, while saving the money for bail.

If you want your kid to be better at sports, get them outside climbing trees, throwing rocks, building forts, digging holes, jumping off of roofs onto a never quite soft enough pile of leaves... Manly things like that.

Teach them to be competitive in everyday life: They should want to get the highest grade in class on their spelling test. They should want to clean their bedroom faster and better than their siblings. They should want to sell the most candy bars for a class trip. Once they show they truly want those things (not by crying and complaining because they didn't, but by working harder the next time and proclaiming that it will never, ever happen again), they might be ready for high level competitive sports.

http://www.scarymommy.com/your-child-is-acting-like-an-asshole-and-its-your-fault

[1Iota]

My question would be, if there is a long term benefit to the highly competitive tournaments at a young age, the high number of competitive tournaments at a young age, why does Russia dominate at the highest level of our sport?  Here is a link to a conversation a US coach had with a Russian coach.  http://www.valhalla-wrestling.cityslide.com/board/board_topic/866921/451185.htm   

Nothing new here, it is pretty much what has been stated by many of our international coaches. 

[knowgangs]

My question would be, if there is a long term benefit to the highly competitive tournaments at a young age, the high number of competitive tournaments at a young age, why does Russia dominate at the highest level of our sport?  Here is a link to a conversation a US coach had with a Russian coach.  http://www.valhalla-wrestling.cityslide.com/board/board_topic/866921/451185.htm   

Nothing new here, it is pretty much what has been stated by many of our international coaches. 

I agree that each kid is different and what's right for one, is not right for another. 

Regarding talking about benefits...I've been told that of the 2013 and 2014 Division 1 Wisconsin high school state champs, 51 of the 54 wrestled at Elite clubs as youngsters. 

Regarding Russian youth wrestling and the blog you posted.  I was familiar with that article before our first wrestling trip overseas.  That one man's perceptions did not match anything as to what we encountered.  Below is a topic I posted following the return of one of our trips.......

This is my observations of overseas youth wrestling.  Over the last couple years I've seen a blog frequently quoted from a Russian man's opinion why their system is so different than the US.  I base these observations/opinions off of two trips to Europe with my son wrestling in 3 different countries, two youth international wrestling tournaments (with 20+ countries represented at each), attending practices at 6 different overseas clubs including the German Olympic Training Center and conversations with many coaches and wrestlers from several countries including Russia, Germany, Netherlands, Poland, Israel, France, Ukraine and many more.  This is in no way fact--just my own observations which counter the perception that many have of overseas youth wrestling.

They don't cut weight?  FALSE

According to coaches I spoke to from several different countries, for a larger tournament (national or international) it is very common for their kids at 12 years old, 85 pounds to cut 2 - 3 kilos.  (1 kilo is 2.2 pounds)--about 4.4 - 6.6 pounds which i would say is more weight than kids cut here for nationals at that same age/weight.  I noticed at the younger ages we generally have 12 weight classes at the national level and they have 9 for the same age group.  Overseas saunas are used by wrestlers at the youth level for cutting weight.  I have also observed both in Poland and the Netherlands--kids running to make weight, using the sauna, wearing excessive sweats, keep visiting the check scale every few minutes, etc.  Like here in the US, they too report some kids cut excessive weight.

They don't start wrestling until 10 - 12 years old?  FALSE

At the last tournament we attended in the Netherlands, they started out at 8 years old (Birth year 2006).  I noticed our Freestyle/Greco national events start off at the intermediate level @ birth year 2005 (9 years old).  When my son wrestled in Poland I believe the brackets started at 9 years old as well.  Although I would agree that the bulk of their average wrestlers do not start at 6 - 8 years old as many of ours, when I talk to their elite wrestlers they too start at the same age as our kids (6 - 8 years).  One thing I did find different was it was common for some men/old teens to start wrestling for recreation in their adulthood who had no experience/interest in the sport as a youth--a concept you don't see here in the US.  Here generally speaking, if you don't start wrestling as a youth or perhaps in high school, you never try the sport.

They do not wrestle more than 2 - 4 tournaments a year?  FALSE

Talking to several coaches from different countries, the average wrestler competes at 8 smaller tournaments a year and 2 - 4 events on the national or international level.  I see from Facebook postings from wrestlers on my son's friends list (11 - 15 year olds)  many compete more that my son does with weekly postings/pictures from tournaments.   When I explained to one of the coaches that during our wrestling season we can attend nearly two tournaments a week within an hour of our home if we chose to, he explained that their wrestlers would love to compete more however; it is not that they discourage competition, it's a matter of expense.  They would like to do more but the cost of travel is a heavy burden on the clubs and coaches.  One of the big differences is the role of coaches.  You see few parents taking their kids to tournaments by themselves.  Instead you see the coach taking the team as a group to events with some parents tagging along.

They don't burn out until senior level?  FALSE

Several coaches I spoke to say they lose the majority of their kids between 15 - 17 years old largely because of younger drinking ages and shifting focus to girls.  Because they do not have a high school or college wrestling system if their wrestling goals does not involve Olympic aspirations, there is little incentive to continue to compete.  In the Netherlands they complained that they have a huge problem with retention.  Most youth elite wrestlers here in the US seem to wrestle October to June 3 - 4 days a week.  Off season is spent with occasional practices or camps.  Overseas most youth wrestlers train year round on average 3 - 4 days a week with some kids training more.  Although competition season might be over, they generally train year around.   An Israel coach told me their kids train 5 - 6 days a week.. The Netherlands coach told me that some kids just can't handle that commitment and try it for a year or two and quit.

Youth practices focus on flexibility, agility, coordination, etc.  TRUE

I would agree that the majority of the youth practices there seemed to involve a bit more game playing (which incorporated wrestling techniques) then what I see here.  Playing games seemed to be used as warm ups and then everything else seemed like typical practices with a focus on drills and some technique.  Of all the practices my son attended from both trips--he seemed to get in the same amount of live wrestling as the majority of the practices he attends here in the US.  Their practices range from 1.5 - 2 hours.  They do seem to take a lot more water breaks than here in the US.  Most of the clubs my son has attended here in the US will get 1 water break during a 2 hour practice.  Overseas, it seems like they'd take 2 - 6 water breaks for a 2 hour practice.

Their wrestling culture is just like ours?  TRUE and FALSE

I'd say they report the same issues as we do.  Lack of numbers and support from their community.  One thing was a major difference is in most of the countries every wrestling club has their own bar.  In the Netherlands, the wrestling club employes a bartender at the club to serve drinks to parents and alumni  who come to the bar during practices to play cards and watch the kids wrestle.  They report it is a great fundraiser.  Even in Germany (both community and private clubs) had alcohol for sell for parents during the practices. Cauliflower ear was common (they call it wrestlers ear) as was kid's with ringworm.  One thing I've noticed different is there, all kids shower at the facility immediately following practice.  One coach asked me if in the US we had the same problem as disrespectful kids not wanting to listen to their parents and coaches.  Although it appeared their coaches took a much bigger role in parenting than our coaches do, lack of respect from the kids is an issue they deal with as well.  Although they are able to get some American wrestling shoes over there, they desperately want American singlets, shoes and wrestling clothing.  American wrestling companies will not ship overseas and those items are like gold there.  They also report that some of their wrestlers have moved to MMA for financial reasons.

Their wrestling programs are free?  MOSTLY TRUE

In most of the countries wrestling clubs are a community organization (nonprofit).  The club pays for trips, uniforms, tournament registration, transportation, etc.  Depending on the country, a wrestling club may be funded by fundraising, government grants or private donations.  Germany is the only country that I've seen (I'm sure there is more) clubs that offers private elite training completely funded by the wrestlers' families.

Are their parents as crazy and overbearing as the US?  FALSE

I must admit, I saw few parents get worked up over their wrestler's matches.  I did see some disappointed moms and dads, but here is the biggest difference--the demeanor of the coaches.  Generally our coaches here are the level headed ones (most anyways) and it's the parents who need cool down periods.  At this last tournament and the previous Poland tournament, it was the coaches I saw most worked up.  I've attended dozens and dozens of national events here in the US from the world level to the kids and I've never seen more over the top coaches than when we travel overseas.  I can't count how many times I saw a coach grab a kid by the arm and forcibly jerk him off the mat following a loss or get directly in his face (inches away) and start yelling at the kid following a loss.  It seemed very socially acceptable.  I saw many coaches lose it  when their wrestlers lost.  It appeared that much of the adult pressure for their kids comes from the coaches and not the parents.  Saw several incidents where after the coach got done manhandling their losing wrestler then the coach moves on and the parent takes over the yelling or the physical contact.

Is officiating fair?  I SAY TRUE, BUT SOME WOULD DISAGREE

Some might say no, but from my perspective I did not see any more bad calls than I do at any other event here in the US.  My son was the victim of what I felt was a bad call however he ended up still winning the match.  Some felt the refs are not fair to the US wrestlers, however talking to the other coaches, they all were very adamant that the refs were not fair to their countries as well.  Many of the coaches were very distrustful of any other official from a different country.  The one interesting thing I noticed was one parent/or coach started yelling at a ref following a match.  The ref walked over to him gave him a nice gesture of brotherly love, pushed the parent/coach and then challenged him to fight outside.  I was surprised at the encounter and even more surprised that no one interjected or seemed to interested in what was happening.  The ref continued to officiate throughout the tournament and I didn't see that coach/parent get loud again.

[1Iota]

My question would be, if there is a long term benefit to the highly competitive tournaments at a young age, the high number of competitive tournaments at a young age, why does Russia dominate at the highest level of our sport?  Here is a link to a conversation a US coach had with a Russian coach.  http://www.valhalla-wrestling.cityslide.com/board/board_topic/866921/451185.htm  

Nothing new here, it is pretty much what has been stated by many of our international coaches.  

I agree that each kid is different and what's right for one, is not right for another.  

Regarding talking about benefits...I've been told that of the 2013 and 2014 Division 1 Wisconsin high school state champs, 51 of the 54 wrestled at Elite clubs as youngsters.  

Regarding Russian youth wrestling and the blog you posted.  I was familiar with that article before our first wrestling trip overseas.  That one man's perceptions did not match anything as to what we encountered.  Below is a topic I posted following the return of one of our trips.......

This is my observations of overseas youth wrestling.  Over the last couple years I've seen a blog frequently quoted from a Russian man's opinion why their system is so different than the US.  I base these observations/opinions off of two trips to Europe with my son wrestling in 3 different countries, two youth international wrestling tournaments (with 20+ countries represented at each), attending practices at 6 different overseas clubs including the German Olympic Training Center and conversations with many coaches and wrestlers from several countries including Russia, Germany, Netherlands, Poland, Israel, France, Ukraine and many more.  This is in no way fact--just my own observations which counter the perception that many have of overseas youth wrestling.

They don't cut weight?  FALSE

According to coaches I spoke to from several different countries, for a larger tournament (national or international) it is very common for their kids at 12 years old, 85 pounds to cut 2 - 3 kilos.  (1 kilo is 2.2 pounds)--about 4.4 - 6.6 pounds which i would say is more weight than kids cut here for nationals at that same age/weight.  I noticed at the younger ages we generally have 12 weight classes at the national level and they have 9 for the same age group.  Overseas saunas are used by wrestlers at the youth level for cutting weight.  I have also observed both in Poland and the Netherlands--kids running to make weight, using the sauna, wearing excessive sweats, keep visiting the check scale every few minutes, etc.  Like here in the US, they too report some kids cut excessive weight.

They don't start wrestling until 10 - 12 years old?  FALSE

At the last tournament we attended in the Netherlands, they started out at 8 years old (Birth year 2006).  I noticed our Freestyle/Greco national events start off at the intermediate level @ birth year 2005 (9 years old).  When my son wrestled in Poland I believe the brackets started at 9 years old as well.  Although I would agree that the bulk of their average wrestlers do not start at 6 - 8 years old as many of ours, when I talk to their elite wrestlers they too start at the same age as our kids (6 - 8 years).  One thing I did find different was it was common for some men/old teens to start wrestling for recreation in their adulthood who had no experience/interest in the sport as a youth--a concept you don't see here in the US.  Here generally speaking, if you don't start wrestling as a youth or perhaps in high school, you never try the sport.

They do not wrestle more than 2 - 4 tournaments a year?  FALSE

Talking to several coaches from different countries, the average wrestler competes at 8 smaller tournaments a year and 2 - 4 events on the national or international level.  I see from Facebook postings from wrestlers on my son's friends list (11 - 15 year olds)  many compete more that my son does with weekly postings/pictures from tournaments.   When I explained to one of the coaches that during our wrestling season we can attend nearly two tournaments a week within an hour of our home if we chose to, he explained that their wrestlers would love to compete more however; it is not that they discourage competition, it's a matter of expense.  They would like to do more but the cost of travel is a heavy burden on the clubs and coaches.  One of the big differences is the role of coaches.  You see few parents taking their kids to tournaments by themselves.  Instead you see the coach taking the team as a group to events with some parents tagging along.

They don't burn out until senior level?  FALSE

Several coaches I spoke to say they lose the majority of their kids between 15 - 17 years old largely because of younger drinking ages and shifting focus to girls.  Because they do not have a high school or college wrestling system if their wrestling goals does not involve Olympic aspirations, there is little incentive to continue to compete.  In the Netherlands they complained that they have a huge problem with retention.  Most youth elite wrestlers here in the US seem to wrestle October to June 3 - 4 days a week.  Off season is spent with occasional practices or camps.  Overseas most youth wrestlers train year round on average 3 - 4 days a week with some kids training more.  Although competition season might be over, they generally train year around.   An Israel coach told me their kids train 5 - 6 days a week.. The Netherlands coach told me that some kids just can't handle that commitment and try it for a year or two and quit.

Youth practices focus on flexibility, agility, coordination, etc.  TRUE

I would agree that the majority of the youth practices there seemed to involve a bit more game playing (which incorporated wrestling techniques) then what I see here.  Playing games seemed to be used as warm ups and then everything else seemed like typical practices with a focus on drills and some technique.  Of all the practices my son attended from both trips--he seemed to get in the same amount of live wrestling as the majority of the practices he attends here in the US.  Their practices range from 1.5 - 2 hours.  They do seem to take a lot more water breaks than here in the US.  Most of the clubs my son has attended here in the US will get 1 water break during a 2 hour practice.  Overseas, it seems like they'd take 2 - 6 water breaks for a 2 hour practice.

Their wrestling culture is just like ours?  TRUE and FALSE

I'd say they report the same issues as we do.  Lack of numbers and support from their community.  One thing was a major difference is in most of the countries every wrestling club has their own bar.  In the Netherlands, the wrestling club employes a bartender at the club to serve drinks to parents and alumni  who come to the bar during practices to play cards and watch the kids wrestle.  They report it is a great fundraiser.  Even in Germany (both community and private clubs) had alcohol for sell for parents during the practices. Cauliflower ear was common (they call it wrestlers ear) as was kid's with ringworm.  One thing I've noticed different is there, all kids shower at the facility immediately following practice.  One coach asked me if in the US we had the same problem as disrespectful kids not wanting to listen to their parents and coaches.  Although it appeared their coaches took a much bigger role in parenting than our coaches do, lack of respect from the kids is an issue they deal with as well.  Although they are able to get some American wrestling shoes over there, they desperately want American singlets, shoes and wrestling clothing.  American wrestling companies will not ship overseas and those items are like gold there.  They also report that some of their wrestlers have moved to MMA for financial reasons.

Their wrestling programs are free?  MOSTLY TRUE

In most of the countries wrestling clubs are a community organization (nonprofit).  The club pays for trips, uniforms, tournament registration, transportation, etc.  Depending on the country, a wrestling club may be funded by fundraising, government grants or private donations.  Germany is the only country that I've seen (I'm sure there is more) clubs that offers private elite training completely funded by the wrestlers' families.

Are their parents as crazy and overbearing as the US?  FALSE

I must admit, I saw few parents get worked up over their wrestler's matches.  I did see some disappointed moms and dads, but here is the biggest difference--the demeanor of the coaches.  Generally our coaches here are the level headed ones (most anyways) and it's the parents who need cool down periods.  At this last tournament and the previous Poland tournament, it was the coaches I saw most worked up.  I've attended dozens and dozens of national events here in the US from the world level to the kids and I've never seen more over the top coaches than when we travel overseas.  I can't count how many times I saw a coach grab a kid by the arm and forcibly jerk him off the mat following a loss or get directly in his face (inches away) and start yelling at the kid following a loss.  It seemed very socially acceptable.  I saw many coaches lose it  when their wrestlers lost.  It appeared that much of the adult pressure for their kids comes from the coaches and not the parents.  Saw several incidents where after the coach got done manhandling their losing wrestler then the coach moves on and the parent takes over the yelling or the physical contact.

Is officiating fair?  I SAY TRUE, BUT SOME WOULD DISAGREE

Some might say no, but from my perspective I did not see any more bad calls than I do at any other event here in the US.  My son was the victim of what I felt was a bad call however he ended up still winning the match.  Some felt the refs are not fair to the US wrestlers, however talking to the other coaches, they all were very adamant that the refs were not fair to their countries as well.  Many of the coaches were very distrustful of any other official from a different country.  The one interesting thing I noticed was one parent/or coach started yelling at a ref following a match.  The ref walked over to him gave him a nice gesture of brotherly love, pushed the parent/coach and then challenged him to fight outside.  I was surprised at the encounter and even more surprised that no one interjected or seemed to interested in what was happening.  The ref continued to officiate throughout the tournament and I didn't see that coach/parent get loud again.

I respect you observations as they are first hand, but I am not sure most of the Countries you site are any better than us at securing a plan for international success.  Poland had one bronze medalist at the last Olympics.  In speaking with college wrestlers that have trained with Russian wrestlers, they echoed the opinion that the coach in the link I shared held inregards to their youth experience.  Much greater focus on technique & less on actual matches.  Some of it is probably financial.  

Vladimir Anoshenko is a former Belarussian national champ who now coaches in the US.  Here is his opinion of the differences between our philosophies.  http://www.russianwrestling.net/node/35

[imnofish]

Again, what do we really want and is that outcome appropriate?  I'm not seeing much mentioned about the value of kids having unstructured play and relaxation time, despite the fact that research points out its importance for their learning and development.  If we have little kids putting extraordinary amounts of time into chasing athletic excellence in their distant future, that "kid time" is bound to be diminished, along with its benefits.  How many kids are in each graduating class, compared to the number of state champions?  We do a lot of talking on here about how wrestling participation has helped us throughout out lives.  Well, how many of us were state champions?  How many of us actually followed the formula that today's youth are being encouraged to follow?  How many of us would have even gone out for wrestling in high school, if we had today's intense youth experiences?  How many of us did not wrestle (or wrestled very little), but we are encouraging our children to devote their elementary school years to the sport?  Is the production of a few top individuals more important than the welfare of the rest?  Which do we hold most important?  We need to be honest with ourselves about this, if we are to strike the proper balance. 

[imnofish]

Thanks, knowgangs!  Very interesting!