State Tournament Brackets D1

PH · February 17, 2019, 07:17:26 PM

Now I'm not going to hold back. I agree with RAT. Quit being a bunch of whiners. This is the problem with society these days. Everyone is either complaining or they have an excuse. It is what it is and lets go wrestle. If you are meant to be a state champion, then go get it!!! I'm talking right now to all you wrestlers that have qualified for state. If you did qualifiy, go have the best tournament of your life and don't listen to anyone on this forum. No excuses!!! Life is not fair and neither is wrestling sometimes. I have been coaching for the last 28 years of my life and have not missed a state tournament, and everyone was exciting. Now I might miss my first in 34 years total (with wrestling myself) because my mom might not make it through the week with her battle with cancer. Oh and I know that this will mean nothing to many, but I won a state title back in the the day when nobody thought I could. going through the #1 ranked guys at two different weights and had to beat the guy that beat me the week before in the state championship. But what I'm going through with my mother right now , I could care less what anyone has to say on this forum. I'm not hiding from anyone on this forum either. Just click on PH and you will see who I am. Come talk to me when you see me. Let's have a beer.

Micah · February 17, 2019, 07:43:18 PM

So we should keep doing it this way just because this is how it's always been? Are you going to ride a horse to state? That use to be the best mode of transportation. You don't think it would be best to separate the top kids as much as possible? It's not only about being a state champ it also affects kids that could place 3-6. Those second place finishers that are in the qtr bracket with Minor and Bird just got a really tough road to place.

D1 is a matrix that isn't even a complete matrix. Honestly, it's not even close to a full matrix. If you want a random draw at least make the draw fair and complete the matrix.

If you don't think it should matter where the kids fall on a bracket because you have to beat them anyway let me seed it then. I am pretty sure I could build a bracket that's advantageous for my wrestler. No complaining when I stack 4 studs on 1 side because hey you have to beat that guy to win it anyway.

Seeding with non subjective criteria is obviously the best most honest way to build a bracket. Can you honestly look at me with a straight face and say random draw is the best method? We don't even have a fair random draw right now in D1.

PH · February 17, 2019, 07:44:16 PM

Finally somebody with a sense of humor!! LOL I wish I could play poker like him!

buc65 · February 17, 2019, 07:47:27 PM

Quote from: Micah on February 17, 2019, 07:43:18 PM
So we should keep doing it this way just because this is how it's always been? Are you going to ride a horse to state? That use to be the best mode of transportation. You don't think it would be best to separate the top kids as much as possible? It's not only about being a state champ it also affects kids that could place 3-6. Those second place finishers that are in the qtr bracket with Minor and Bird just got a really tough road to place.

The WIAA is concerned with finding a state champ. They are not concerned with finding the top 6 wrestlers.

kpugh8680 · February 17, 2019, 08:13:37 PM

The WIAA is concerned with finding a state champ. They are not concerned with finding the top 6 wrestlers.
[/quote]

DING DING DING!!!! We have a winner!!!!

Micah · February 17, 2019, 08:18:45 PM

Quote from: buc65 on February 17, 2019, 07:47:27 PM
Quote from: Micah on February 17, 2019, 07:43:18 PM
So we should keep doing it this way just because this is how it's always been? Are you going to ride a horse to state? That use to be the best mode of transportation. You don't think it would be best to separate the top kids as much as possible? It's not only about being a state champ it also affects kids that could place 3-6. Those second place finishers that are in the qtr bracket with Minor and Bird just got a really tough road to place.

The WIAA is concerned with finding a state champ. They are not concerned with finding the top 6 wrestlers.

Then they should care about the path unless you are saying they just want to find one by any means necessary and don't care, whatever is easiest from an admin standpoint. The path can play just as big of role to find a state champ as the actual wrestling. Obviously the less land mines you cross the easier your path.

maggie · February 17, 2019, 08:24:41 PM

I'M WITH RAT ! TOSS'RM
IN A HAT !

Numbers · February 17, 2019, 08:56:55 PM

Quote from: Luke Louison on February 17, 2019, 10:14:38 AM
Reading the flawed logic of "Seeding isn't perfect, so let's not do it," makes my eyes bleed. If it's better than what we have (it is), we should do it (we should).

Now Luke agrees with me? Maybe I should reconsider my views

DocWrestling · February 18, 2019, 07:34:52 AM

Are coaches happy now then that they never have to sit in a seeding meeting again? Why seed regionals? Why seed any tournament? I just don;t understand how we spend all the time to seed every tournament all year long and then for the most important we don't? Every other sport has gone to seeding their state tournaments. We don't have to seed the state tournament because everyone is a great wrestler? Is that the reason that this is the only tournament that we don't seed? Can you imagine if they did not seed the NCAA tournament?

The best has to beat the best to win it all but guess what. If they re-wrestled the same bracket the following weekend the results would be different. And they would be different the week after that. There is only one chance for this.

There will always be upsets which is awesome but that does not mean that seeding is worthless.

1) Wrestling at the state tournament is an awesome experience. I think we should always have a system that gets the best 16 wrestlers to state no matter the geography. The best 16 wrestlers on that day deserve to have that experience
2) Because wrestling at state is a memorable experience we should make sure every wrestler gets two matches
3) The experience of wrestling in the semifinals on Friday night is even better than Thursday afternoon. We should try to do what we can to seed and get the top 4 wrestlers to Friday night so they can enjoy that experience win or lose. Some guys will wrestle back to 3rd or 4th but will miss the experience of "semifinals night"
4) Finals night and the walk of champions is beyond everything else. If we have a bracket where the "supposed" best are on opposite sides we increase the chances of the two best wrestlers getting this experience win or lose.

babywhales · February 18, 2019, 07:37:49 AM

Quote from: DocWrestling on February 18, 2019, 07:34:52 AM
Are coaches happy now then that they never have to sit in a seeding meeting again? Why seed regionals? Why seed any tournament? I just don;t understand how we spend all the time to seed every tournament all year long and then for the most important we don't? Every other sport has gone to seeding their state tournaments. We don't have to seed the state tournament because everyone is a great wrestler? Is that the reason that this is the only tournament that we don't seed? Can you imagine if they did not seed the NCAA tournament?

The best has to beat the best to win it all but guess what. If they re-wrestled the same bracket the following weekend the results would be different. And they would be different the week after that. There is only one chance for this.

There will always be upsets which is awesome but that does not mean that seeding is worthless.

1) Wrestling at the state tournament is an awesome experience. I think we should always have a system that gets the best 16 wrestlers to state no matter the geography. The best 16 wrestlers on that day deserve to have that experience
2) Because wrestling at state is a memorable experience we should make sure every wrestler gets two matches
3) The experience of wrestling in the semifinals on Friday night is even better than Thursday afternoon. We should try to do what we can to seed and get the top 4 wrestlers to Friday night so they can enjoy that experience win or lose. Some guys will wrestle back to 3rd or 4th but will miss the experience of "semifinals night"
4) Finals night and the walk of champions is beyond everything else. If we have a bracket where the "supposed" best are on opposite sides we increase the chances of the two best wrestlers getting this experience win or lose.

For the most part this sums it up.

Excellent post.

DocWrestling · February 18, 2019, 07:44:31 AM

Every seeding meeting ever held has some partial subjectivity to it just like the rankings do but it is still better than random draw.

We can meet in the middle and have some objective measures that just about everyone could agree to

Could everyone agree with a seeding rule that guarantees that two returning state champs are on opposite sides of the bracket?

Could we simply separate returning placewinners?

If everyone entered every match result in trackwrestling, we could easily come up with a seeding mechanism based on who you have beaten this year and who you have lost to to go along with last year's results.

Cheesehead has figured out a way to pretty much rely on objective data

dman · February 18, 2019, 08:25:24 AM

Curious...why would people get mad at each other over this topic?? Sheesh!

My opinion...seed the darn tournament already. Hard to argue with the pure logic of every single other high school tournament seeds the wrestlers, but the most important one of the year doesn't?? But what I would like to see first and foremost is if you make it to state you should get at least 2 matches!

Numbers · February 18, 2019, 08:32:01 AM

Quote from: DocWrestling on February 18, 2019, 07:44:31 AM
Every seeding meeting ever held has some partial subjectivity to it just like the rankings do but it is still better than random draw.

We can meet in the middle and have some objective measures that just about everyone could agree to

Could everyone agree with a seeding rule that guarantees that two returning state champs are on opposite sides of the bracket?

Could we simply separate returning placewinners?

If everyone entered every match result in trackwrestling, we could easily come up with a seeding mechanism based on who you have beaten this year and who you have lost to to go along with last year's results.

Cheesehead has figured out a way to pretty much rely on objective data

I would argue you still need to win sectionals for your prior year state placement to matter. It basically is a validating requirement to prior year state placement being considered.

Where the separating last year state champions gets "grey" is when one loses at sectionals in an "upset". When something unusual happens like this, it would just put us in the same spot we are at now. There is a 1 in 7 chance two state champions could wrestle round 1, but still about a 50% chance they will be on opposite sides of the bracket.

Can someone tell me the negatives of changing to seeding sectional champions based on objective criteria? It almost appears some are against it because it does not include subjective criteria. If you lose at sectionals, the only consideration you get is that you are opposite side of the bracket at state of the kid that just beat you.

npope · February 18, 2019, 09:00:31 AM

Quote from: buc65 on February 17, 2019, 07:47:27 PM
The WIAA is concerned with finding a state champ. They are not concerned with finding the top 6 wrestlers.

Actually, the WIAA has been vocal and clear its core value being to promote participation - not a concern as to who is champion, who places where, etc. While I know any number of posers here are fixated on placements, those concerns are not hose of the managing entity who coordinates the event. That concern for participation was the motivation for a class system - which purists, who wanted to see a single champion emerge among all comers, hated.

I don't mean to suggest that either perspective is actually better than the other - arguments for both sides. But personally, I like the WIAA's perspective a bit more - but that's just me.

DocWrestling · February 18, 2019, 09:03:38 AM

Quote from: Numbers on February 18, 2019, 08:32:01 AM

I would argue you still need to win sectionals for your prior year state placement to matter. It basically is a validating requirement to prior year state placement being considered.

So we should penalize a wrestler simply because of where his parents chose to live? So we should penalize a wrestler based on geography and the arbitrary groupings created by the WIAA?

There have been numerous instances where the two best wrestlers have been in the same sectional. Sometimes that works out for the best because at least we know they are on opposite sides of the bracket but why not seed everyone. I think we can all agree that not all sectionals are the same or better yet not every weight class at each sectional is as tough as others in the same sectional.

The WIAA only cares about crowning a champion so they have never cared about geography or who makes it to state. But the coaches associations have repeatedly shown they do care. First it was just seeding regionals. Then that was not enough. Now they seed entire sectionals. All to get the best matchups as late into the tournament as they can and making geography matter less. Upsets still happen!