have a question from the Janesville SEC

[CoachZ]

It's a dumb rule. It's a pointless rule. It's a rule that is brought up to before the start of every tournament and every dual meet. At least the ones I'm involved in. Wrestlers and coaches are aware of it.

[Nailbender]

the ref was letting it go ..until the coach from sun P said something...and it was showing all third period...but yet that coach waited till OT to say something..pretty sad way to go out...that kid from elk horn was the real deal... i know i wouldn't have wanted to win that way

In all the tournaments I've been to all over the world I've never seen a coach run to the officiating table more than the Sun Praire coach.  It was comical watching him.  I guess in this case his whining paid off.

My question...if a wrestler was in compliance at the beginning of the match but during the match his multicolored undergarments become visible during the match, wouldn't he be allowed to fix that rather than awarding other wrestler a point?  Same with headgear falling off or unstrapped or laces coming undone?  Isn't that rule for when you report to the mat?

I'm with you on this one, why was it an issue so late in the match?!? The Sectional I attended yesterday gave each coach a warning for approaching or questioning a call (each time). A seasoned Fan next to me informed that the second call was an ejection for that coach from the tournament. Not saying that my info is 100% correct, but if one chooses to be a whistle blower they should be held accountable as ALL the rules read. Again, my info could be incorrect, but, I have seen that Beast from Elkhorn and it is unfortunate that a ref decided the outcome of that match on a technicality so late in the game. Please advise if I am not correct.

[bigoil]

It's a dumb rule. It's a pointless rule. It's a rule that is brought up to before the start of every tournament and every dual meet. At least the ones I'm involved in. Wrestlers and coaches are aware of it.

It is a uniform rule throughout the WIAA. Girls basketball has to not only have a solid color, all girls need to have the same undergarment colors.

[Numbers]

It's a dumb rule. It's a pointless rule. It's a rule that is brought up to before the start of every tournament and every dual meet. At least the ones I'm involved in. Wrestlers and coaches are aware of it.

But referees handle this at least three different ways.
1)  Some refs point out possible infractions (mouth guard, head gear on, shoe strings) to a wrestler before they officially report to the head table but are on the way there.
2)  Some refs will penalize a noticed infraction at the head table before the match starts.
3)  Apparently some refs make these calls only when a violation is specifically addressed by an opposing coach?  (or we can give the ref the benefit that he is focused on calling a match).

Are all the above appropriate and the referee gets discretion?  Is there a rule against referees helping a wrestler avoid one of these infractions?

Is uniform infraction enforcement a specific criteria in evaluating referees?

[CoachZ]

It's a dumb rule. It's a pointless rule. It's a rule that is brought up to before the start of every tournament and every dual meet. At least the ones I'm involved in. Wrestlers and coaches are aware of it.

It is a uniform rule throughout the WIAA. Girls basketball has to not only have a solid color, all girls need to have the same undergarment colors.

That's what I am saying. Every coach is aware if the rule. It's brought up in every coaches meeting.

[South Coach]

Yesterday in the first round of our sectional one of my assistants noticed that the opponent of our 182 lb wrestler did not have his laces secured. I waited until the end of the 1st period, as this was obviously not something I would have tried to stop the action over, and I brought it to the official's attention. It was a 0-0 match at the time and I do not feel bad at all for helping our kid get a 1-0 lead in the most important match of his life (he is a senior).

I know it is kind of a dumb rule, but I don't feel bad because we all know the rule and we all have to follow it. We have been penalized on it in the past, and I can remember at least one specific occasion when it cost us a match.

The compression shorts thing is similar, but different I will say in that it is not enforced as consistently even when officials notice. This might simply be because it is still a newer rule, but I heard several "warnings" on the rule this season without penalty. I can't say that I remember an official ever noticing laces that were not secured and only giving a warning without a penalty.

[wraslfan]

Fan are more aware of both rules now?
Well maybe the best deterent is knowledge of the rules and the possibility of the punishment/penalty that will either drive change or educate folks on the penelties for breaking the rules?

Yes, people are more aware of the idiocy surrounding the WIAA rules and their decisions...their apparent desire to take away opportunities for the athletes they are supposedly representing. (due to decisions made by other adults) Everyone is aware of the athletes that lost their opportunity to compete because of adults that do not have the capacity, or courage to stand up for what is in the best interest of the student athletes. Instead they chose to hide behind a rule book that includes a rule like the one discussed in this thread.

[CoachZ]

It's a dumb rule. It's a pointless rule. It's a rule that is brought up to before the start of every tournament and every dual meet. At least the ones I'm involved in. Wrestlers and coaches are aware of it.

But referees handle this at least three different ways.
1)  Some refs point out possible infractions (mouth guard, head gear on, shoe strings) to a wrestler before they officially report to the head table but are on the way there.
2)  Some refs will penalize a noticed infraction at the head table before the match starts.
3)  Apparently some refs make these calls only when a violation is specifically addressed by an opposing coach?  (or we can give the ref the benefit that he is focused on calling a match).

Are all the above appropriate and the referee gets discretion?  Is there a rule against referees helping a wrestler avoid one of these infractions?

Is uniform infraction enforcement a specific criteria in evaluating referees?

I've never witnessed this rule applied. I've only seen first hand a shoe string infraction. I noticed it after the match started and pointed it out to the ref. We were given a penalty point and the other wrestler had to get them taped.

The referee helps the wrestler avoid this infraction by reminding his coach before the tournament starts. Sometimes kids forget. Sometimes coaches forget.

I would assume if you wanted to comment about it when you do your ref ranking, you certainly can.

I'm guessing if you ask the official or someone in the WIAA. They will say they are "applying the rule as it is written." I was told that at regionals after one of my wrestlers took one step outside of the circle with one foot. This was after he checked in at the table but before the match started. He got penalized for leaving the mat area. The officials response "he applied the rule as it is written"
Our opponent was given a point before the match started. Ultimately it didn't effect the outcome.

The solid undergarment rule is dumb, but it is a rule. A rule  every coach is aware of.

[South Coach]

Dumb rules (as I agree this one is) are still rules. We have the power to change rules or their interpretations if we feel strongly enough but we cannot choose which ones we enforce, and we can't claim we don't know them.

That is why I posted earlier because someone suggested that the kid from Sun Prairie shouldn't feel good about winning the way he did. I wasn't there, but I'll offer this idea: Did he not EARN that point in a sense when he prepared himself for the match and reported with proper equipment? Same as securing your laces, you shouldn't feel bad if about it if you did and the other guy didn't.

If you consider this rule a technicality and think they should have just "settled it on the mat", then isn't making weight really a technicality too? If a kid is a few tenths over then shouldn't we just let him wrestle so they can "settle it on the mat" even though the other guy followed the rules and prepared himself accordingly?

None of you would go for that, you'd scream about a competitive disadvantage but it is my point exactly. You, me, or anyone else can't decide what rules are important enough to enforce as we would never all agree on that line, especially the moment we had a horse in the race. We must enforce them all, and when we decide that something isn't clear or appropriate or important, then change the rule.

[imwi]

the ref was letting it go ..until the coach from sun P said something...and it was showing all third period...but yet that coach waited till OT to say something..pretty sad way to go out...that kid from elk horn was the real deal... i know i wouldn't have wanted to win that way

In all the tournaments I've been to all over the world I've never seen a coach run to the officiating table more than the Sun Praire coach.  It was comical watching him.  I guess in this case his whining paid off.

My question...if a wrestler was in compliance at the beginning of the match but during the match his multicolored undergarments become visible during the match, wouldn't he be allowed to fix that rather than awarding other wrestler a point?  Same with headgear falling off or unstrapped or laces coming undone?  Isn't that rule for when you report to the mat?

I'm with you on this one, why was it an issue so late in the match?!? The Sectional I attended yesterday gave each coach a warning for approaching or questioning a call (each time). A seasoned Fan next to me informed that the second call was an ejection for that coach from the tournament. Not saying that my info is 100% correct, but if one chooses to be a whistle blower they should be held accountable as ALL the rules read. Again, my info could be incorrect, but, I have seen that Beast from Elkhorn and it is unfortunate that a ref decided the outcome of that match on a technicality so late in the game. Please advise if I am not correct.

Seasoned fans are usually the last ones you want to listen to, they will be quoting rules from when they wrestled.  You don't go from a warning to an ejection.  Get a rule book, they are available online fairly cheap.  You can even find PDFs of them for free.  I have no idea what happened at this meet but I do know the your seasoned fan is incorrect.

SECTION 5 COACH MISCONDUCT
ART. 1 . . . Coach misconduct occurs when a coach improperly questions the referee at the scorer's
table.
ART. 2 . . . When a coach requests a conference with the referee at the scorer's table regarding a
possible misapplication of a rule, and it is determined there was no misapplication or when, during a
conference at the scorer's table, the coach questions the judgment of the referee, coach misconduct
shall be called. The coach misconduct penalty shall always be charged to the head coach.
ART. 3 . . . Coach misconduct results in the following:
a. First offense – warning;
b. Second offense – deduct one team point;
c. Third offense – deduct two team points and removal of the head coach for the remainder of the
day. The penalty sequence starts anew each day. (See Penalty Chart)

[BlackandGold]

This is not on the refs, this is 100% on the SP Coach. 
The refs had to enforce a rule because it was brought to their attention, by the SP Coach, just before Chestnut (SP) and Heidemann (Elkhorn) were about to start overtime.

Disgusting, childish, trollish behavior by the SP Coach...sprinting to the scorer's table at the start of OT, then turns around and jogs back to his corner with a whacked out grin on his face, pumping his fist and holding up 1 finger (because he knew he just got his guy into the finals).

No fault on Chestnut, he looked baffled and the way he looked at his coach certainly implied that he didn't want to win that way.

...and just like that, a 17 year old's wrestling career comes to a close because an adult (arguable w/ his behavior) got about as tickey-tackey as one can get. 

[fastnfurious]

I heard it was supposed to be revenge for the sectional semis of 2011 when Scharenbrock slammed an Elkhorn kid and the coaches told him to stay down, DQing Scharenbrock and costing him a spot at state. Not justifying it at all just sharing. I will say however that was a long time ago and had nothing to do with Heidemann, so punishing him for that is pretty bogus.

[ramjet]

Dumb rules (as I agree this one is) are still rules. We have the power to change rules or their interpretations if we feel strongly enough but we cannot choose which ones we enforce, and we can't claim we don't know them.

That is why I posted earlier because someone suggested that the kid from Sun Prairie shouldn't feel good about winning the way he did. I wasn't there, but I'll offer this idea: Did he not EARN that point in a sense when he prepared himself for the match and reported with proper equipment? Same as securing your laces, you shouldn't feel bad if about it if you did and the other guy didn't.

If you consider this rule a technicality and think they should have just "settled it on the mat", then isn't making weight really a technicality too? If a kid is a few tenths over then shouldn't we just let him wrestle so they can "settle it on the mat" even though the other guy followed the rules and prepared himself accordingly?

None of you would go for that, you'd scream about a competitive disadvantage but it is my point exactly. You, me, or anyone else can't decide what rules are important enough to enforce as we would never all agree on that line, especially the moment we had a horse in the race. We must enforce them all, and when we decide that something isn't clear or appropriate or important, then change the rule.

+1

[maggie]

south coach, with all due respect, your not saying the lace made a difference because he has a SR are you?...would you have made the same call you if your wrestlers was a FR?... 

[ramjet]

south coach, with all due respect, your not saying the lace made a difference because he has a SR are you?...would you have made the same call you if your wrestlers was a FR?...  

But he wasn't so the comparison is moot .