http://www.lakecountrynow.com/news/livingsunday/building-blocks-weighing-the-issues-in-woodland-wrestling-controversy-b99413728z1-286593221.html?lc=Tablet
That is a good article, both sides of the argument have merit. Was Whitnal struggling with numbers as well? Or just Greendale?
I agree. Very well written.
While I think cooping might be the right way to go for Greendale (corrected from Whitnall) - I don't like the idea of it being with a team that is sustainable on its own.
Seems to me that cooping should join 2 teams that are both in need of manpower.
Where might they (G-dale)go to find a team that actually needs their numbers, then?
Milwaukee? ... (as close or closer than Whitnall ... & closer than many coops)
Or - why not join the Cudahy/St.Francis/St.ThomasMoore coop ... (still has only 21 wrestlers) ... (again - as close or closer than Whitnall ... & closer than many coops)
There are 45 wrestlers on the Whitnall-Greendale roster. If Greendale had few ... Whitnal had enough (by general atandards).
Whitnall had 29/30 kids on their roster listed on trackwrestling,co-op is there to help out 2-3 regressing programs,greendale falls into this catagory but whitnall does not. ???
... so Greendale had 15-16 ?
... plus 21 at Cudahy/St.Francis/St.Thomas Moore ... would have made 36-37 - only slightly larger than Whitnall alone (29-30) ... where the goal should be to remain independent where possible. IMO ... 29-30 is possible (though certainly not ideal). However - if we are going to start cooping to create ideal eviroments ... there would be massive changes.
At this point ... I'm with Kurth & the conspiracy theorists.
So they should only be aloud to co-op if both schools need the help?
Though it sounds like some ugly politics the way this all happened; it doesn't mean we should ban co-ops that only benefit one of the teams.
My team wasn't hurting for numbers when we co-oped with the neighboring district that had only two wrestlers. Now, that school has a full team and so do we.
Whitnall and Greendale are relatively close. Cud/SF/TM , it's a nice drive from Greendale. Whitnall is a neighboring district.
I'm just disappointed the ADs kind of left the wrestling coaches out of it; save for that guy in Pewaukee. ;)
I'm always with Kurth. :)
Quote from: bigG on December 23, 2014, 09:16:55 AM
So they should only be aloud to co-op if both schools need the help?
No - but if there is an equally needy program in the same or a reasonably nearby area ... why not strengthen both?
Also - Greendale is nearly equidistant to Cudahy/ST.Francis/St.Thomas Moore and Whitnall.
Big G, from what you've said about that co-op, I think your situation was different. Whitnall intentionally took on a bunch of Greendale standouts that now make up half the lineup that beat Pewaukee and West Allis Central. Greendale and Whitnall would have each been competitive this year. This wasn't just about helping a struggling program. This was about winning conference and sectional titles this year.
Distance from Greendale High school to:
Greenfield High School = 2.1 miles
Whitney High = 4.2 miles
Cudahy High (if that is where they practice?) = 8.9 miles
Greenfield has 40 kids on their roster? So if Greendale formed a co op with them everyone would be fine with it?
Nope. I wouldn't have been fine with it. And it doesn't sound like Greenfield's coach would have given up his own wrestlers' spots.
Greendale could have fielded a team. Nine returners. Get a few kids out of the hall and a few incoming freshmen. There's your team- just like everyone else. Whitnall should have faced Pewaukee with what they developed. Not with what they borrowed.
Greendale shouldn't have co-oped with anybody this year. By their own count they had 17 wrestlers ready to go this year.
If it is true that Greendale has 17 wrestlers out, there really was no need to co-op. A much better solution would be to build from within. I think the real issue must be with the Greendale administration, & a lack of concern over the future of the program. There is no reason for a school the size of Greendale to not be able to field a full squad with plenty of JV wrestlers as well. I remember years ago when informed the numbers were weigh down at our local HS. The administration hired a teacher who would serve as the coach & he built the program to a squad with over 50 members in 3 years.
Quote from: Blast Double on December 23, 2014, 10:02:26 AM
Distance from Greendale High school to:
Greenfield High School = 2.1 miles 3minutes
Whitney High = 4.2 miles 5 minutes
Cudahy High (if that is where they practice?) = 8.9 miles 15-20 minutes at rush hour, Layton gets packed, College has gotten much busier, Grange gets garbled
Miles and minutes don't match very well in the greater Milwaukee area.
Greenfield has 40 kids on their roster? So if Greendale formed a co op with them everyone would be fine with it?
Doesn't sound like the co-op is on the line here. There is that sentiment that:1. this was done for a competition advantage so that this one super-team might be a (team)state qualifier. 2. Coaches were left out of the loop. You want conspiracy theory? Don't invite stakeholders. Sounds like the greatest stakeholders had no say in this. You don't send your AD to a seeding meeting, right?
All these great points could have been brought up had the coaches been allowed ownership of this process. Poorly managed from and administrative perspective, IMO.
So we are back to the issue of numbers. I feel like this thread is going to repeat the posts from the last hijacked thread.
Greendale has 11 kids on the roster not 17. Not sure where that number keeps coming from?
The only reason I ask the question about forming the co op with Greenfield being ok is because that is a point that is constantly brought up? I don't see what the argument is there other than it is a little closer? Numbers for Greenfield are greater than the numbers for Whitnall?
As far as the administrative side and how that all played out I do not have enough information to defend anyone at this point.
This whole argument from both sides is a matter of your point of view. Are co ops only meant to combine 2 or more schools whose programs are failing and allow them to die a slow death together? From Pewaukee's perspective and many others the answer is yes. This is obviously the traditional way to see a co op.
Could there possibly be a more creative way to try and help revive a program that is failing? The answer to this question is possibly? Unfortunately no one will know until a few years down the road. The problem here is that Pewaukee wants to believe that this co op was not formed for the reasons that the Whitdale coaches are saying it was. So now it has become a way for the Pewaukee faithful to come on the forum and try and destroy a coaches reputation. Only time will tell if the intentions of the co op are true or not. And for that matter we may never find out because the program at Greendale may never come back to a point where it can stand alone? So for now, until proven otherwise, I will believe that the intentions of the co op are what the Whitdale coaches say they are and not what is perceived to be what other people think.
I do know this from being at the dual between Whitdale and Pewaukee. I was sitting next to a kid who came out for wrestling in middle school. He wrestled maybe 3 matches and quit. He looked at me in the middle of the dual and said "this is the most exciting sporting event I have ever watched!" He then said "It actually kind of makes me want to wrestle next year!" I encouraged him to give it another shot and maybe try and convince a couple other kids to also give it a shot. I am not sure if he will ever step foot on the mat again or not. But it was very encouraging to hear some interest from some kids! So maybe just maybe there is some hope for a revival of the Greendale program!? Only time will tell.
I don't believe co-ops should be granted for any school above a certain student enrollment. Not sure what that number should be (500-600 maybe). If you can't get enough kids out with that number of students then the problem is commitment from those in charge.
If you want to have a viable program at a school with that many kids there is nothing stopping you.
So I guess you are saying that Whitnall can't compete with Pewaukee without the co-op. I wonder what the Whitnall coaches think of that.
I hope that young man didn't attend any of the blow-out wins Whitdale had or will have this year.
As for the number 17, here is where I'm guessing it came from (on the other thread)...
This is what was presented to the Greendale School Board:
Our Request for cooperative sponsorship is based on the following reasons:
Greendale High School is experiencing a sharp decline in wrestling. They are wishing to co-op with an area team. Whitnall H.S. is also seeing a downward slide in participation numbers.
Schools in co-op 2-years ago last year this year next year
2011-2012 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15
Greendale 12 (co-op) 22 17 6
Whitnall 37 33 33 29
We were a co-op a couple years ago. We are one of the largest schools in D1. We only did it because the other school cut the program in the middle of the summer with literally no warning. They are a private school so I guess they didn't really need approval or permission or to give any type of notification?? They asked if we would co-op since we were the closest school to them. There were only 5 kids, 4 seniors and a junior. 2 of the seniors quit. We knew it was only for 2 years, and we weren't going to recruit the other school to keep the co-op going. We only did it because those 5 wrestlers got an extremely raw deal from the school's AD. It wasn't fair to those kids. We knew how it would look on paper to see a large D1 school co-oping, but in this case it was the right thing to do.
I don't see how 37 to 29 is a sharp decline. 37 to 12 would be a sharp decline. The numbers next year could easily be up again close to 35-40. If 37-29 is a sharp decline and reason to co-op, a lot of schools will be able to start making that argument.
Quote from: aggressive on December 23, 2014, 03:00:07 PM
So I guess you are saying that Whitnall can't compete with Pewaukee without the co-op. I wonder what the Whitnall coaches think of that.
I hope that young man didn't attend any of the blow-out wins Whitdale had or will have this year.
As for the number 17, here is where I'm guessing it came from (on the other thread)...
This is what was presented to the Greendale School Board:
Our Request for cooperative sponsorship is based on the following reasons:
Greendale High School is experiencing a sharp decline in wrestling. They are wishing to co-op with an area team. Whitnall H.S. is also seeing a downward slide in participation numbers.
Schools in co-op 2-years ago last year this year next year
2011-2012 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15
Greendale 12 (co-op) 22 17 6
Whitnall 37 33 33 29
Not just compete. The argument would be that this co-op was intended to fill in the gaps that would allow Whitnall ,not only to compete with, but beat, Pewaukee. These 11 kids could put them over that edge. If a majority coaches on the regional/sectional were okay with it, great. You don't even get a feel for what the wrestling world in that area feels about it because they were allowed no stake in it.
My only issue is the lack of transparency and stakeholder involvement.
Quote from: head57 on December 23, 2014, 02:47:33 PM
I don't believe co-ops should be granted for any school above a certain student enrollment. Not sure what that number should be (500-600 maybe). If you can't get enough kids out with that number of students then the problem is commitment from those in charge.
If you want to have a viable program at a school with that many kids there is nothing stopping you.
I agree with this. IMO the only reason for a large school to not be able to have healthy numbers is lack of commitment from the administration & the district. I heard every excuse in the book years ago as to why our school did not have healthy numbers, culture, jobs, to hard for today's kids, ect. We hired a new AD who believed in the positive merits of athletic participation & realized only so many kids can play basketball. He hired a teacher/coach who was passionate about wrestling. He worked closely with the youth club, & recruited in the hallways. We now field multiple wrestlers at every weight class. This to me is more a story about the Greendale administration & district office not giving 2 craps about wrestling.
I think if Foley transferred to the Whitnall district this wouldn't be a topic on co-op it would be a topic on kids transferring to schools to win championships, or just to beat pewaukee.
"The problem here is that Pewaukee wants to believe that this co op was not formed for the reasons that the Whitdale coaches are saying it was."
Because their reasons make no sense. Quinlan says it was done to create opportunities for wrestlers. What opportunities? 14 varsity spots were eliminated because of this co-op. Gdale projects that it's numbers will be down next year... so why co-op this year? They had a competitive team.
"Greendale has 11 kids on the roster not 17. Not sure where that number keeps coming from? "
17 was the number Gdale themselves said they had ready to go for this season. If they're down to 11 now, why is it that 6 kids dropped out? Could it be they didn't want to have to compete with another schools wrestlers for matches?
This part really bothers me, "The Whitnall and Greendale coaches did not raise the issue of a potential merger at the preseason coaches meeting one week before the vote." Now why would they not bring it up at the coaches meeting if they felt so strongly that they were doing the right thing? They knew that all the other coaches would be against it and go back to their AD's to lobby for a no vote. Then their whole plan would go down the drain. That was a weasel move.
Quote from: aspan43 on December 23, 2014, 03:59:52 PM
This part really bothers me, "The Whitnall and Greendale coaches did not raise the issue of a potential merger at the preseason coaches meeting one week before the vote." Now why would they not bring it up at the coaches meeting if they felt so strongly that they were doing the right thing? They knew that all the other coaches would be against it and go back to their AD's to lobby for a no vote. Then their whole plan would go down the drain.
Very good point. It's pretty hard to defend that decision.
Quote from: aggressive on December 23, 2014, 03:00:07 PM
I hope that young man didn't attend any of the blow-out wins Whitdale had or will have this year.
As for the number 17, here is where I'm guessing it came from (on the other thread)...
This is what was presented to the Greendale School Board:
Our Request for cooperative sponsorship is based on the following reasons:
Greendale High School is experiencing a sharp decline in wrestling. They are wishing to co-op with an area team. Whitnall H.S. is also seeing a downward slide in participation numbers.
Schools in co-op 2-years ago last year this year next year
2011-2012 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15
Greendale 12 (co-op) 22 17 6
Whitnall 37 33 33 29
So we don't want that kid to be excited about trying the sport again? I am not getting why attending more duals would be a bad thing for this kid to do?
So the chart that you show above are the numbers that you are referring to? Then let me point out to you that if you actually read the chart it says that the projected numbers for Greendale in the 2014-15 season (which is the current season) is 6. Not the 17 that you are saying for the 2013-14 season.
As far as the meeting and the co op not being brought up there I have nothing to defend this? You are right it does seem a little shady but I have never been in this meeting or have ever heard anything about what is talked about at these meetings. Is that the proper time and place to bring up the co op? And that is an honest question to someone who has the knowledge to answer it.
I guess a thought that came to my mind as well is that if that was in fact the presentation that was given to justify a co-op, it makes it sound like that presentation was given last year. It stated that the numbers would be 6 for Greendale, and 29 for Whitnall. How do they know what the numbers would be before the season even started?
As others have said, the transparency in the whole process is the problem here.
"I don't believe co-ops should be granted for any school above a certain student enrollment. Not sure what that number should be (500-600 maybe). If you can't get enough kids out with that number of students then the problem is commitment from those in charge.
If you want to have a viable program at a school with that many kids there is nothing stopping you."
I don't have any stake in this coop discussion but I take issue with the above statement. I have spent my career involved at every level in a district with a high school having 2300-2600 students 10-12 depending upon the year.
Ther were points when I coached the high school (15 years) where I had wrestlers three deep at every weight. Some years we couldn't fill all of one line up. I had one season where we forfeited the first four weights. I worked hard always, recruited at my junior high, ran the youth program, on and on.
I stepped down four years ago and we have been struggling with numbers before and since doing so.
I think part of the reason is how refined and competitive it has become. Recruiting a kid at 9th grade is almost cruel. Trying to find a win in our conference with all the kids who are veteran wrestlers from elementary age is very tough. It is all about the youth and getting kids to a high level early. Our youth program just hasn't taken off and it is not for a lack of trying.
Quote from: Blast Double on December 23, 2014, 07:11:23 PM
As far as the meeting and the co op not being brought up there I have nothing to defend this? You are right it does seem a little shady but I have never been in this meeting or have ever heard anything about what is talked about at these meetings. Is that the proper time and place to bring up the co op? And that is an honest question to someone who has the knowledge to answer it.
I probably should have worded that better...I guess the decision to not discuss it at that particular meeting doesn't need to be "defended." It just made me question why it was not brought up for discussion. You may be right, maybe that isn't the time or place for the discussion. I'd still rather have the Greendale wrestlers have a place to wrestle than not. Hopefully it does get Greendale back on the right track and building their own team again. It will be hard to recruit Greendale wrestlers in Whitnall hallways though!
I have heard Green Bay will be combining all of their schools into one team....seems odd to me that these teams can't get any sort of numbers.
Whats the excuse? I've heard them all.
If you can't create at least 2 decent teams from that population there is something wrong with what they are doing.
There are many teams out there that I'm surprised the success of youth has not transferred to the high school level. Port was once a proud program that at times has few wrestlers comes to mind besides many others so I guess it seems it can happen to anyone...I can't believe it's all about being a tough sport because programs can still fill the numbers if there is the right type of leadership.
Trust me..we are not in a good situation as only our head coach is in the school but between him and the rest of the coaches we talk to every kid that ever roams the halls and in a school(multiple times for most whether it is spring, summer or fall) that is approaching 300 enrollment and no history of a Coleman or such we all know it is dependant on us to fill classes from year to year. No one ever said all classes have to be great wrestlers(we take anyone and see how it goes)....but when I see these huge enrollment schools with such few kids you have to question the dedication of the coaches. Coaching is not just showing up for the first day of practice....yet I know some that think it is.
My coach of the year every year is Kirk Bahr from Menominee Indian....the guy doesn't have what anyone would call a great wrestling population to draw from but year after year basically fills every class and he is D3....if he can why can't any school with big populations?
"Coaching is not just showing up for the first day of practice....yet I know some that think it is."
Trust me Padre, this was never me.
I'd love to know the reason I was unable to get kids out the last 5 or 6 years as head coach. Wrestling was never part-time for me, it was my passion.
We have restarted our MS program and I have 14-16 kids out in my building. None of them have any wrestling experience. I think they will all stay out the whole season (I have had some quit and some were removed by me). Whether they will ever be competitive in our league is up in the air. It is tough to keep interest as they only meet kids with much youth experience.
Again, you can't build a competitive varsity program around here without a large, strong youth program. Again, it isn't for lack of trying.
Amen Padre.....I don't know Kurth from a hole in the wall, but I would bet every dime I have, that if you put him in Greendale or any school of your choosing that is struggling in the sport of wrestling, he'd have a full team and a very successful team and he'd do it the 1st season he was there. I've seen this phrase on the back of tshirts of a pretty prominent team "THERE IS NO EASY WAY". That statement goes for the wrestlers and the coaches. Unfortunately we have some individuals that are still looking for the easy way, the band aid.....and a CO-OP is not the answer, especially in a Division 1 school.
Let me ask you this Greendale.....why not just pull back for 1 or 2 years, only enter JV meets or non dual formats for a couple years with your small varsity squad while you implement your "rebuilding" tactics? Wouldn't that have been a much better life lesson for your athlete's?
Just remember this: No Good Deed Goes Unpunished
The truth is that anywhere the Greendale kids would have gone would have created an excellent team. Nowhere would have been ok for anyone outside of the two programs.
So far, I'd say they've done it right.
They had a dual at Greendale, which was well attended. At that dual they introduced the kids club kids and the middle school kids.
They've changed the kids club at Greendale from one that was ultra competitive a few years ago, which created studs like Hensley, Welch, etc. but may not have created the numbers they need to generate their own feeder. They have Gregg Lewis running their kids club, and he's an awesome guy, who the kids like very much. And not too many programs have a college coach at their kids club.
Kerry Johnson is the middle school coach, and he's a great guy as well. Was a HS head coach, so he has the background to make successful middle schoolers who can proceed to the high school level.
The head coach isn't in the building. That's tough. I don't know what the administrations views are on coaches in the district teaching. I know at Bay, I was told to NOT put coaching down on the resume, because they don't want their teachers coaching at all.
They also have a varsity reserve roster, so that the kids who may have been bumped out still get to wrestle varsity tournaments.
Hard to argue that they aren't doing what they said they were, which is building a program for Greendale. I hope that after two years they are back on their own.
Quote from: Jeff Farrell on December 23, 2014, 10:07:47 PM
Let me ask you this Greendale.....why not just pull back for 1 or 2 years, only enter JV meets or non dual formats for a couple years with your small varsity squad while you implement your "rebuilding" tactics? Wouldn't that have been a much better life lesson for your athlete's?
To put ranked kids in JV tournaments would be an injustice to those kids. It makes no sense. It's not that they didn't have talent, its that they didn't have numbers.
If they would have JV quality kids, no one would be complaining. It is a unique situation where they have top level talent but small numbers.
Quote from: MNbadger on December 23, 2014, 09:59:31 PM
"Coaching is not just showing up for the first day of practice....yet I know some that think it is."
Trust me Padre, this was never me.
I'd love to know the reason I was unable to get kids out the last 5 or 6 years as head coach. Wrestling was never part-time for me, it was my passion.
We have restarted our MS program and I have 14-16 kids out in my building. None of them have any wrestling experience. I think they will all stay out the whole season (I have had some quit and some were removed by me). Whether they will ever be competitive in our league is up in the air. It is tough to keep interest as they only meet kids with much youth experience.
Again, you can't build a competitive varsity program around here without a large, strong youth program. Again, it isn't for lack of trying.
Totally correct....I would have almost no wrestlers if it weren't for the youth program that I run.
We have 15-17 kids in our middle school(6th-8th)...not big numbers by any means. Have never had more than that yet we were one of the few teams to register full weight classes the last 5 years....and we will again the next 5....we have our head coach in the school(and he promotes hard) also....it is a full time job(regardless of the season) all year long. Maybe get a job coaching another sport as myself and the Head Assistant do and we promote it all summer and fall...it's the only way we see it is possible....but to have 1200 kids I think we'd have 50 out....sorry. To add to the fact that we have a wrestling room that fits 12 kids wrestling live just sustains my point that one can get 30 kids out for the sport.
Learned a lot from many others on the way....never leave a man left behind....don't know what they will end up being. I myself never wrestled before high school(basketball player) but was lured by getting a letter and we have made it a bit easier to get a letter for our JV....something to think about.(:
We are not world-beaters but we fill line-ups.
Clarification: what I meant was only attend jv meets with the kids that need that, or individual (non dual format) with your varsity caliber kids. Do they really need the extra 6 or 7 matches from the conference duals to continue there individual progress? Wouldn't the 25+ matches that they would get at their 7 multi team event be enough, while they are rebuilding?
Would West Allis not allowed Greendale into their tournament this past weekend, if they only brought 6?
Quote from: Jeff Farrell on December 23, 2014, 10:33:24 PM
Would West Allis not allowed Greendale into their tournament this past weekend, if they only brought 6?
The Stech historically has been tough to get into. Now, I don't know. We only had 8, though 2 were sick.
Quote from: MNbadger on December 23, 2014, 09:59:31 PM
"Coaching is not just showing up for the first day of practice....yet I know some that think it is."
Trust me Padre, this was never me.
I'd love to know the reason I was unable to get kids out the last 5 or 6 years as head coach. Wrestling was never part-time for me, it was my passion.
We have restarted our MS program and I have 14-16 kids out in my building. None of them have any wrestling experience. I think they will all stay out the whole season (I have had some quit and some were removed by me). Whether they will ever be competitive in our league is up in the air. It is tough to keep interest as they only meet kids with much youth experience.
Again, you can't build a competitive varsity program around here without a large, strong youth program. Again, it isn't for lack of trying.
We started like this...I believe there were 3 kids in the junior high program before I started...but I started coaching junior high when my youth was established(and when son was entering 6th grade) and there was a light at the end of the tunnel. Unfortunately it doesn't start in the JH program as those kids have very little chance for success even at the high school level(although some will still do OK).
Like I've said before it takes a decade but most just don't have that time.
From reading past forums (and watching some of your studs this weekend) it looks like you are doing a good job rebuilding your program. Why didn't you just Co-op, Ghetto?
Quote from: Jeff Farrell on December 23, 2014, 10:07:47 PM
Amen Padre.....I don't know Kurth from a hole in the wall, but I would bet every dime I have, that if you put him in Greendale or any school of your choosing that is struggling in the sport of wrestling, he'd have a full team and a very successful team and he'd do it the 1st season he was there. I've seen this phrase on the back of tshirts of a pretty prominent team "THERE IS NO EASY WAY". That statement goes for the wrestlers and the coaches. Unfortunately we have some individuals that are still looking for the easy way, the band aid.....and a CO-OP is not the answer, especially in a Division 1 school.
Let me ask you this Greendale.....why not just pull back for 1 or 2 years, only enter JV meets or non dual formats for a couple years with your small varsity squad while you implement your "rebuilding" tactics? Wouldn't that have been a much better life lesson for your athlete's?
Just remember this: No Good Deed Goes Unpunished
I agree with you about Kurth & I would bet this is why he is so upset about this maneuver. He built his program & he knows he could do it again, yet another team takes a short cut to success. I also will never agree with those that offer the opinion that no matter what they do they can't build numbers at schools the size of Greendale. I heard this for way too many years until a truly committed staff came in & built a program.
I don't think its always about uncommitted coaches. I think many times they are trying their best....but just doesn't connect with the wrestlers or parents. Some guys just has that way about them that kids want to be a round and would run through walls for. You must find that guy...if your trying your hardest and no success....maybe look in the mirror and realize you need to find that guy. You need a strong group of parents that back the program from youth through high school....not just where there kids are.
We have schools with less than 300 making it work....certainly D1 schools should be able to. I believe Greendale was in a better situation than Whitefish Bay was when Ghetto took over and he certainly has made huge strides.
One fact that gets overlooked is greenfield was down and out 3 years ago after coach morin retired. Greenfield was down to 8 wrestlers. Wrestling fell on some pretty hard times. Look at it now, 40 kids are wrestling and many are picked out of the hallway. Just knowing coach otto, granted he is in the building, he still gets kids out and being a parent of a greenfield wrestler, they love being on the team. Being in the building is not the cure all to team with low numbers.
I believe there are two prime points in time that kids can be recruited into wrestling ...
... when they enter middle school ... and non-basketball athletes are looking for something to do and are more likely to respond to positive encouragement & the ego-enhancement of being "recruited" (if done in a way that makes them feel like a recuit ... not a participant)
... freshman year ... when athletes realize that football & basketball bench-warming isn't going to satisfy their competitive desires
This is not to say wrestling can't get it's share of the better athletes - just that the athletes it gets will likely be the ones whose skill sets are not optized in (primarily) basketball.
Quote from: Jeff Farrell on December 23, 2014, 10:50:21 PM
From reading past forums (and watching some of your studs this weekend) it looks like you are doing a good job rebuilding your program. Why didn't you just Co-op, Ghetto?
We were already in a co-op when I took the job, and I didn't want it. I didn't know what it would do to chemistry in the room. But I am that stubborn to a ridiculous fault guy too. I can't stand being told I can't do something. (Might be short guy syndrome ;D )
I hope that it works at Greendale, because my son will be directly effected. That's my greatest concern in the whole thing.
Thank you for the kind words. This is a special group of wrestlers. That said, we have 21 kids, and its a grind to get kids out. We have one kid per weight, and when someone goes down..
Merry Christmas everyone.
Send him to greenfield... Then there will be no issue. They seem to be on the rise and don't need a co op. Just a thought ghetto. Even though I know you have questioned otto as a coach in the past :) my kid loves wrestling at greenfield.
I have not questioned Otto. I've known him since he was a middle school coach. I was playing Devils advocate. Trying to understand the thinking behind why the co-op with Whitnall and Greendale and not Greenfield.
I can't even get my ex to agree to send my kids to Bay, (Greendale doesn't have gymnastics for my daughter either) so I'm guessing she won't be ok with Greenfield either. She did work at Greenfield HS tho.
I clearly need to watch what I say. I have ticked off a lot of coaches involved in this situation and I don't feel negatively about any of them.
New Years resolution. ;)
And Greenfield beat us once again at the Stech. I can't really question his coaching.
Quote from: Ghetto on December 24, 2014, 11:56:04 AM
I clearly need to watch what I say. I have ticked off a lot of coaches involved in this situation and I don't feel negatively about any of them.
How? Why? You haven't said anything even remotely negative... ???
I they truly upset with you, than that further validates that deep down, they know what was done wasn't right, or at the very least not done in the right way. Why is it not alright for you to have your own opinion on the subject?
With the number of wrestlers Whitnall had in their program and with them having a solid team for many years, they certainly did not need to co-op. Greendale's numbers were down but they had some very good wrestlers. Every program has up & down years. They needed to do a better job recruiting and inspiring kids to wrestle. These teams certainly cooped so they could build a championship team.
I'm the HC at a small D3 school. I wrestled for this school and now have coached for 12 years, 4 as HC. We had a co-op for 4 years at one point. Our football team is co-op'ed with the same school. We knew there was one family that had two boy's that wrestled, so we gave the co-op a try. Long story short each of the two boys left the Catholic school they were at for the public school in their town. So one of the four years we had both wrestlers. We ended the co-op and moved on. I don't like how it ended, we kind of got burned. That said, next year we are going to try and resume that co-op. The other school started a jr. high program and I want these kids to have a place to wrestle in HS. Maybe I'll get burned again, maybe not. Either way if it gives kids a chance to wrestle a co-op can be a good thing.
I read the article and all the response's. I know my situation is different from that of the school's mentioned. Just wanted add something to the conversation. We haven't had a full lineup in 16 years. I'm close this year, only two forfeits. As a head coach, IT'S HARD to fill 14 weight classes, especially in a small school. I don't have back ups.
Maybe it's time for the WIAA to help fix the issue! Are 14 weight classes really necessary? Only 10 in college and 14 in HS? I realize that plenty of schools can fill them. I think 12 is a realistic number. Or, we done like MN does and allow 7th and 8th grade to wrestle HS. Again, plenty of schools that don't need this option but I think there is plenty that need that option.
Just my 2 cents, but what do I know, I'm just a coach! ;)
AWESOME!! JHI, too many weight classes, and the coach "not doing enough" to get a full squad!! That's 3 of biggest issues on the board all brought up in 1 post! BRAVO!! ;D
Quote from: crossface21 on December 26, 2014, 06:20:04 PM
AWESOME!! JHI, too many weight classes, and the coach "not doing enough" to get a full squad!! That's 3 of biggest issues on the board all brought up in 1 post! BRAVO!! ;D
But we are so early in the season for the 12 weights conversation. ;D
I predict someone will get long winded after state. ;)
Quote from: CoachZ on December 26, 2014, 05:31:05 PM
I'm the HC at a small D3 school. I wrestled for this school and now have coached for 12 years, 4 as HC. We had a co-op for 4 years at one point. Our football team is co-op'ed with the same school. We knew there was one family that had two boy's that wrestled, so we gave the co-op a try. Long story short each of the two boys left the Catholic school they were at for the public school in their town. So one of the four years we had both wrestlers. We ended the co-op and moved on. I don't like how it ended, we kind of got burned. That said, next year we are going to try and resume that co-op. The other school started a jr. high program and I want these kids to have a place to wrestle in HS. Maybe I'll get burned again, maybe not. Either way if it gives kids a chance to wrestle a co-op can be a good thing.
I read the article and all the response's. I know my situation is different from that of the school's mentioned. Just wanted add something to the conversation. We haven't had a full lineup in 16 years. I'm close this year, only two forfeits. As a head coach, IT'S HARD to fill 14 weight classes, especially in a small school. I don't have back ups.
Maybe it's time for the WIAA to help fix the issue! Are 14 weight classes really necessary? Only 10 in college and 14 in HS? I realize that plenty of schools can fill them. I think 12 is a realistic number. Or, we done like MN does and allow 7th and 8th grade to wrestle HS. Again, plenty of schools that don't need this option but I think there is plenty that need that option.
Just my 2 cents, but what do I know, I'm just a coach! ;)
I'm a D3 guy, too. Love this little school. When we co-oped (without needing help), we weren't ostracized. But we didn't inherit a bunch of studs. 2 newbies. So my situation is a little different. Those two kids helped start their club, and then, a few years later (because of many great parents, kids, alum, and school)they came out full force. Glad they roll on their own and are a renewed rival of ours. Healthy stuff.
Hope you get the kids, bud. You sound like you have the right attitude.