Rethinking the High School Wrestling Season

[Ty Clark]

You can set your schedule however you want it. Tournaments whenever you want them. Duals are set up by your conference. Go to as many tournaments as you want? 2? 4? 6? We don't have to have 7, its just the maximum. Space them out however you please. If you don't want to start until after deer hunting with your team then don't and change your tournament schedule and move your early duals to later. If we lose those first 2 weeks we will never get them back. If someone wants a different schedule then do it, just don't think everyone should. Be ready to answer why you don't and give them your beliefs at that time or explain it in your parent meeting. If you think kids need a break, give it to them but you will need to explain it to the rest of the team. Any ideas are great if you REALLY believe in them and then get your program to believe also. Bottomline-its open to however you want to do it(within reason).

+1  

Well said..every coach has a different scenario. No way the top teams would lessen the load but if that's what is right for your school go for it.

My post about having freedom to do things as we see fit and experiment had little to do with my original post about my dream schedule... I know I can make my schedule look pretty close to what I posted (hence why I said I didn't want to hijack this thread...).

The point of that post was that our sport is about as messed up as American politics. Something like 91% of coaches voted to move the season back til after Thanksgiving... A similar number voted to allow more uniform options. That's a consensus if there ever was one, yet we are told we won't change the uniform rules until the national federation does. Remember when we instituted the 7% rule before anyone else? It probably set wrestling in the state back by a decade (as far as being nationally competitive), but it turned out to be the right thing to do. Michigan said screw the new weight classes and kept the old ones. They saw through the manipulated statistics which led to far too many upperweights and too few middleweights. Why can't we as a state challenge the status quo when there seems to be overwhelming support to do it?

But to pivot back to the original intention of the thread, and how freedom pertains to having more flexibility to schedule. Well, naming freedoms we do have doesn't discount the ones we don't have... That's like telling someone they can't own a pet monkey, but they can own a cat, dog or ferret, so they shouldn't worry about not being able to own a monkey... but why not?

The present system of scheduling is very flexible for the "haves" but what about the "have nots"? What good does scheduling seven duals, let alone eight, nine or ten, do for a team with only 5-6 wrestlers? Are you going to get more kids out when you're getting beaten 66-12 in a dual which lasts 13 minutes? Same goes for conferences with a bunch of teams with multiple forfeits and few actual match-ups when they face-off. Wouldn't it make more sense for them to be able to compete in a few more tournaments (or bring together 4-5 teams on a weeknight and try to make match-ups without it counting as a multiple), rather than waste seven nights of practice while increasing travel and cutting weight? *(The WIAA does allow conferences with a lot of perpetually small teams to trade one dual for a tournament, though, I don't know if any have/do.)

What about teams with a couple of studs and the rest newbies? Why not let the studs go to Bi-States without either a) taking the lesser kids along to get serial-crushed, or b) make the lesser kids have to lose a varsity competition? Under our current set of rules, why can't teams schedule nine varsity tournaments, so long as each kid only wrestles in seven of them?

In the end, our use of maximum allowable dates just isn't good enough. Maximum number of individual matches per wrestler makes much more sense. Again, my opinion differing from yours doesn't mean I'm saying you're wrong.

[woody53]

If we let young coaches like Ty run our sport. We will grow.

[MNbadger]

I agree with Ty on most of this (especially about duals) but monkeys are terrible pets!

You can set your schedule however you want it. Tournaments whenever you want them. Duals are set up by your conference. Go to as many tournaments as you want? 2? 4? 6? We don't have to have 7, its just the maximum. Space them out however you please. If you don't want to start until after deer hunting with your team then don't and change your tournament schedule and move your early duals to later. If we lose those first 2 weeks we will never get them back. If someone wants a different schedule then do it, just don't think everyone should. Be ready to answer why you don't and give them your beliefs at that time or explain it in your parent meeting. If you think kids need a break, give it to them but you will need to explain it to the rest of the team. Any ideas are great if you REALLY believe in them and then get your program to believe also. Bottomline-its open to however you want to do it(within reason).

+1  

I agree with Ty on most of this (especially about duals) but monkeys are terrible pets!

Well said..every coach has a different scenario. No way the top teams would lessen the load but if that's what is right for your school go for it.

My post about having freedom to do things as we see fit and experiment had little to do with my original post about my dream schedule... I know I can make my schedule look pretty close to what I posted (hence why I said I didn't want to hijack this thread...).

The point of that post was that our sport is about as messed up as American politics. Something like 91% of coaches voted to move the season back til after Thanksgiving... A similar number voted to allow more uniform options. That's a consensus if there ever was one, yet we are told we won't change the uniform rules until the national federation does. Remember when we instituted the 7% rule before anyone else? It probably set wrestling in the state back by a decade (as far as being nationally competitive), but it turned out to be the right thing to do. Michigan said screw the new weight classes and kept the old ones. They saw through the manipulated statistics which led to far too many upperweights and too few middleweights. Why can't we as a state challenge the status quo when there seems to be overwhelming support to do it?

But to pivot back to the original intention of the thread, and how freedom pertains to having more flexibility to schedule. Well, naming freedoms we do have doesn't discount the ones we don't have... That's like telling someone they can't own a pet monkey, but they can own a cat, dog or ferret, so they shouldn't worry about not being able to own a monkey... but why not?

The present system of scheduling is very flexible for the "haves" but what about the "have nots"? What good does scheduling seven duals, let alone eight, nine or ten, do for a team with only 5-6 wrestlers? Are you going to get more kids out when you're getting beaten 66-12 in a dual which lasts 13 minutes? Same goes for conferences with a bunch of teams with multiple forfeits and few actual match-ups when they face-off. Wouldn't it make more sense for them to be able to compete in a few more tournaments (or bring together 4-5 teams on a weeknight and try to make match-ups without it counting as a multiple), rather than waste seven nights of practice while increasing travel and cutting weight? *(The WIAA does allow conferences with a lot of perpetually small teams to trade one dual for a tournament, though, I don't know if any have/do.)

What about teams with a couple of studs and the rest newbies? Why not let the studs go to Bi-States without either a) taking the lesser kids along to get serial-crushed, or b) make the lesser kids have to lose a varsity competition? Under our current set of rules, why can't teams schedule nine varsity tournaments, so long as each kid only wrestles in seven of them?

In the end, our use of maximum allowable dates just isn't good enough. Maximum number of individual matches per wrestler makes much more sense. Again, my opinion differing from yours doesn't mean I'm saying you're wrong.

[DocWrestling]

Here is another out of the box thought.  Many conference duals are a joke because most conferences have a stud team(s) and then some very poor teams,  Why have them compete against each other?

Maybe we get rid of the conference thought and go to some sort of "sections" to schedule duals that are not based on school size but based on success.  I picture like European soccer.  Put all the best teams into groups based on talent or let coach pick.  Then use geography to group the 8 closest teams together and they wrestle their 7 duals.

You could still have a conference tourney based on the typical schools.

Picture areas of the state where you group up all the best teams and they all wrestle duals against each other.  Maybe they are in groups of 6 so they get five duals and they have two open dates to schedule anyone in the state based on what they want?  Regional results from the prior year could place teams in groups the following year.

Based on success some teams might move up a group the following year or drop down.  Give coaches the option to wrestle up but not down.  I picture northeastern Wisconsin and if you could group the best of D1, D2, and D3 and then the medium talented teams and then the lesser teams together, you would have some amazing duals that would generate interest and excitement.

Just not sure the conference structure works in wrestling.  To me it is not much fun when a team knows it will win or lose every dual before they even show up.  Match up teams of similar talents and it will create better matches and duals so better for individuals and teams

[Ghetto]

I may be wrong, but couldn't you schedule tournaments as a "varsity reserve" team? I know that is sort of the opposite of lessening the amount of tournaments, but I was under the impression that you could schedule 1000 tournaments, but the kids could only compete in 7 multiples and 7 duals.

[Coach V]

Ghetto that is correct about varsity reserve. Not sure about the 1000 

[foose4]

Here is another out of the box thought.  Many conference duals are a joke because most conferences have a stud team(s) and then some very poor teams,  Why have them compete against each other?

Maybe we get rid of the conference thought and go to some sort of "sections" to schedule duals that are not based on school size but based on success.  I picture like European soccer.  Put all the best teams into groups based on talent or let coach pick.  Then use geography to group the 8 closest teams together and they wrestle their 7 duals.

You could still have a conference tourney based on the typical schools.

Picture areas of the state where you group up all the best teams and they all wrestle duals against each other.  Maybe they are in groups of 6 so they get five duals and they have two open dates to schedule anyone in the state based on what they want?  Regional results from the prior year could place teams in groups the following year.

Based on success some teams might move up a group the following year or drop down.  Give coaches the option to wrestle up but not down.  I picture northeastern Wisconsin and if you could group the best of D1, D2, and D3 and then the medium talented teams and then the lesser teams together, you would have some amazing duals that would generate interest and excitement.

Just not sure the conference structure works in wrestling.  To me it is not much fun when a team knows it will win or lose every dual before they even show up.  Match up teams of similar talents and it will create better matches and duals so better for individuals and teams

Wrestling is no different than other sports, some conference teams are studs, some ok, some bad.  It's the same for football, basketball, baseball, etc--plenty of games people will "know" the result of the game before showing up.  Why do we always want to treat wrestling different than other sports?  If we want more people to come out, taking away duals against your "rivals" of the conference is not the answer. 

[DocWrestling]

Not taking away conference rivals.

Wrestling is different because one team shows up with 14 guys and the other shows up with 9.  To say wrestling is the same is the fallacy. 

We don't have 11-man football teams playing 8-man teams.

We don't have basketball teams playing 5 starters and another team only playing with 4.

If you had all your varsity spots filled wouldn't you rather be in a group for duals where every other team has 14 spots filled. How much more fun would that be for maybe 5 of your duals and then leave 2 duals for your rivals or whoever you want to dual. 

I look back to when I wrestled, we used to travel over an hour to wrestle and knew we would win the dual and I knew that I was going to get a forfeit or move a decent guy away from me.  Was that fun for me?  Not really.  Was it fun for my parents?  Not really. Was it fun for the team?  Not really.   Then we had out of conference duals against Luxemburg-Casco or Campbellsport and the places were packed, results were in doubt, and everyone was excited.  If every dual was like that wrestling would be more popular than basketball with that intensity.  It would have been awesome if every dual was against teams like that.  6 stud teams in a round robin dual schedule.

Now our team is in the middle of the pack struggling to fill weight classes and find success.  These wrestlers get on the bus and know what is going to happen when they wrestle the top team(s).  Now maybe they would be better off replacing some of those duals with teams of similar talents and sizes? 

I have seen great duals between two teams that don't have a sectional qualifier on either team but they are equal and every match goes back and forth and each match affects the dual outcome.  It is fun for them.  Match these teams together.

Lets take basketball even under this scenario.  Imagine taking the top 8 basketball teams in your area no matter the school size and put them together.  Every game would be a battle and you would eliminate their blowouts.  Then take the next 8, etc.  Quality tight games increase in number exponentially.  Kids play different teams and in different gyms and a whole new experience.

Take St. Mary's Springs football.  They would love to be in a different conference with bigger schools for football because of their success and get rid of the conference games where they are up 45-0 at halftime.  In other sports with less success they want to be with teams of similar talents.  This system would handle all that.

I just see this as a solution to all the conference realignment problems in all sports based on school size.  Do it solely by success for the regular season.  At the conclusion of the season in all sports it would be doable to group teams for the following season to prepare schedules

[Houndhead]

I think the best thing about Ty's ideas are freeing up more Saturdays for kids, parents and coaches. I think it is important for kids to have other things in their life besides sports. Once the majority of them leave high school, they will never wrestle again. Make the wrestling season fun for ALL the kids and your participation will increase.

[Ty Clark]

I may be wrong, but couldn't you schedule tournaments as a "varsity reserve" team? I know that is sort of the opposite of lessening the amount of tournaments, but I was under the impression that you could schedule 1000 tournaments, but the kids could only compete in 7 multiples and 7 duals.

Varsity reserve is the politically correct term for JV. Those matches can't be included on the kids' varsity records, thus can't be used for regional seeding (if you do, under the current rules, you are technically cheating... no other way to put it). (Edit: Rules state as long as one team considers it varsity, both teams get to... my mistake.) If we consider dropping down to 12 weight classes eliminating varsity opportunities, then you have to concede that wrestling your varsity as "varsity reserves" is eliminating varsity opportunities as well (i.e. if we dropped the to twelve weights, those two former varsity wrestlers could still wrestle "varsity reserve", afterall). Not to mention, splitting your varsity up and calling half of them "reserve" so you can go to more varsity tournaments is just a way to skirt the rules. If it is the common practice and acceptable to bend the rules, then it's time to just change the rules.

This is why I read the forum... to listen to other people's ideas to help shape my own. The forum got me to jump off the dropping weight classes train and decided it would be better to find ways to fill them for dual meets, without taking opportunity away from those teams and wrestlers who can. I couldn't care less about filling weights for individual tournaments... we could have 20 weights at individual tournaments, and I'd be completely fine with it (but let teams enter more than one kid at each weight, but limit the total number they can bring... Realistically, 15 weight classes with 20 entrants per team would be pretty good).

[Coach V]

Varsity reserves wrestling at varsity tournaments= varsity matches. No different than putting a JV in a dual for an injury or change in lineup. I do hear the too many Saturday comment once and a while. Then they may need a weekend off or explained to them why this will help them in the long run. Kids need direction and they need to understand why nowadays instead of just doing it because you were told to and trusting in the coach to do whats right for them and his beliefs- whatever that is. Change is needed, always need to improve on what we have or we fall behind in anything in life. Everyone will  not agree or have to do it the same way which is what makes this a great country and sport. Good ideas by ball and very thought provoking. Keep it up

[Ty Clark]

Varsity reserves wrestling at varsity tournaments= varsity matches.

Thank you on the correction; you're right... I was wrong by assuming that the rules weren't contradictory (which was stupid on my part), but I looked back at the handout from regionals... The fact remains that there is limit of seven varsity multiples and 8 JV multiples allowed on a team's schedule, and any one wrestler can only compete in any combination of seven of them.  It's just another example that underscores why the rules need to be changed... If everyone is alright with breaking (at minimum, the spirit of the) rules, then it is time to change the rules to reflect such. I know I don't want to have to tell my team and parents that we won't be able to compete at conference, because I assumed doing the Varsity/Varsity Reserve switcheroo was OK as everyone's doing it. (Also, the practice of sending varsity kids as "varsity reserve" takes away JV opportunities by eating up one of JV's allowable multiples.)

[Jimmy]

I hate to say to follow the Jones but match count like Minnesota sure makes it easy. Schedule all you want and just count the matches.

[DocWrestling]

What is the match limit?

[Ty Clark]

What is the match limit?

http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/activitypage.asp?actnum=424

Maximum number of Contests: 18

Player Participation Limit:
  Daily Limit: A wrestler may not wrestle in more than five (5) matches on any given day.
  Season Limitation: No student may participate in more than 36 matches prior to League-sponsored tournament.

Seems reasonable and straight-forward to me. Wisconsin's participation limits takes four pages in the handbook to explain with all of the exceptions and caveats, and, still, nobody is quite sure what is legal and what is not.