http://edsource.org/2014/report-urges-revamping-student-testing/68811#.VEgBS-flc0A
I don't know that we can revamp testing, keep it affordable, and still measure basic skills. The new version of the WKCE assumes so much with reading comprehension. My students are awesome at the basic skills of math, but struggle with reading comprehension. So on a word problem, if they don't know what the question is asking, they can't even get to the math. It's extremely frustrating to get scores back on kids who I know are pretty good at math, but their scores don't reflect it.
Testing should be for the kids and their parents anyway. Tying it to other things is silly to me.
https://edpolicy.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/publications/accountability-college-and-career-readiness-developing-new-paradigm.pdf
Did you click on the link to the report? What's your response to it?
Are colons illegal in California or something?
Quote from: bigG on October 23, 2014, 01:15:20 PM
Are colons illegal in California or something?
No, I think most people have them ;D
Guess I put that right on the tee for you.
Just more money-making opportunities for some.
As a parent, the only tests I EVER cared about are the ones my daughters took in each of their classes given by their instructors and the ACT. None of the others had or have any value or positive effect on their learning or their future.
I deal with this crap every day and all it does is take away from my ability to teach students.
+1 BIG time.
Quote from: MNbadger on October 23, 2014, 02:47:46 PM
Just more money-making opportunities for some.
As a parent, the only tests I EVER cared about are the ones my daughters took in each of their classes given by their instructors and the ACT. None of the others had or have any value or positive effect on their learning or their future.
I deal with this crap every day and all it does is take away from my ability to teach students.
+1000
Quote from: imnofish on October 23, 2014, 11:55:43 AM
https://edpolicy.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/publications/accountability-college-and-career-readiness-developing-new-paradigm.pdf
Did you click on the link to the report? What's your response to it?
That's way too much reading. ;D
I think that testing is a huge money grab. The testing companies have to be laughing all the way to the bank with the switch to common core, because districts are all going to fall in line to get materials to conform to a new test. It's a backwards way of thinking. The testing services are constantly changing because they are all book publishers as well. Its a crazy good racket, because you can build demand just by doing something a little different. And now with the public shining a magnifying glass on education, districts almost have to conform because their bad scores will be all over some news outlet.
Teach. Teach good stuff. Challenge kids with ideas that expand their minds. Don't just teach standard 5.NF.A because it says you have to. That's my mindset. And certainly don't align your grading to the standards like we are doing in MPS. Its ridiculous. The problem with the newer tests isn't the tests. It's our (forced) reaction to them. Districts are afraid to look bad so they go along with the latest trend because they are scared that what they were doing doesn't work. Running scared is bad.
That said, when I get evaluated I will fall in line for that hour, because if I don't, all the sudden I'm a bad teacher and not doing what I am supposed to be doing. Then I'll go back to doing what I've always done.
IMHO, we're teaching the kids to interview well, instead of teaching them to do the job well. That's what these tests do to education, me thinks. HUUUGE $$$$ behind all this. These days schools are compared using ACT scores and participation in ACT (all juniors will take it this year, though). Only 35% of my kids went 4 year last year. I bet 75% went tech college. Makes me look bad. Oh well, I'm not in it to please the state as much as the kids and their folks.
I am fond of saying in regard to testing...
"you don't put a pig on the scale to make him gain weight"
Quote from: bigG on October 24, 2014, 09:08:53 AM
IMHO, we're teaching the kids to interview well, instead of teaching them to do the job well. That's what these tests do to education, me thinks. HUUUGE $$$$ behind all this. These days schools are compared using ACT scores and participation in ACT (all juniors will take it this year, though). Only 35% of my kids went 4 year last year. I bet 75% went tech college. Makes me look bad. Oh well, I'm not in it to please the state as much as the kids and their folks.
If only more of those in your profession felt the same way.
Quote from: wrestlersdad on October 24, 2014, 10:28:34 AM
Quote from: bigG on October 24, 2014, 09:08:53 AM
IMHO, we're teaching the kids to interview well, instead of teaching them to do the job well. That's what these tests do to education, me thinks. HUUUGE $$$$ behind all this. These days schools are compared using ACT scores and participation in ACT (all juniors will take it this year, though). Only 35% of my kids went 4 year last year. I bet 75% went tech college. Makes me look bad. Oh well, I'm not in it to please the state as much as the kids and their folks.
If only more of those in your profession felt the same way.
I think you'd find that most teachers are this way. Darn near all.
Quote from: Ghetto on October 24, 2014, 10:34:52 AM
Quote from: wrestlersdad on October 24, 2014, 10:28:34 AM
Quote from: bigG on October 24, 2014, 09:08:53 AM
IMHO, we're teaching the kids to interview well, instead of teaching them to do the job well. That's what these tests do to education, me thinks. HUUUGE $$$$ behind all this. These days schools are compared using ACT scores and participation in ACT (all juniors will take it this year, though). Only 35% of my kids went 4 year last year. I bet 75% went tech college. Makes me look bad. Oh well, I'm not in it to please the state as much as the kids and their folks.
If only more of those in your profession felt the same way.
I think you'd find that most teachers are this way. Darn near all.
That's certainly my perception. They really have no power in fashioning education policy.
Quote from: wrestlersdad on October 24, 2014, 10:28:34 AM
Quote from: bigG on October 24, 2014, 09:08:53 AM
IMHO, we're teaching the kids to interview well, instead of teaching them to do the job well. That's what these tests do to education, me thinks. HUUUGE $$$$ behind all this. These days schools are compared using ACT scores and participation in ACT (all juniors will take it this year, though). Only 35% of my kids went 4 year last year. I bet 75% went tech college. Makes me look bad. Oh well, I'm not in it to please the state as much as the kids and their folks.
If only more of those in your profession felt the same way.
Interesting perspective that I wouldn't have if I wasn't able to read the comments from educators, I appreciate your inputs.
Wrestlersdad, I, for one, believe that the 4 year school thing is far, far over-rated at this point. So many graduating without a job in their major with huge school loans; rising tuition to get them to that point.
I was impressed that you have 110% output from your students though! ;)
All I know on this is that I am perfectly happy with the education my two boys received...and perfectly happy with the education my daughter is currently getting. One son probably under achieved academically. His (and my) fault. Not the fault of those who taught him. The other two had grades that were consistent with how they tested throughout all 12 years. It always seems to me like people want to blame the system, or change the way we educate when there does not appear to be an issue with how their taught. The problems as I see it are with the parents, and the students themselves that aren't willing to learn, or parents who do not hold their kids accountable. I made mistakes as a parent, but can thankfully say I did not blame their teachers for the mistakes I, or my kids made.
My comment to BigG about more in the teaching profession was directed at his last statement
"Oh well, I'm not in it to please the state as much as the kids and their folks."
I wish more teachers had THAT attitude. I have not seen that attitude reflected my the majority of teachers. Some, yes. The majority, no way.
Sorry if I was not clear and may have unintentionally offended someone.
Quote from: wraslfan on October 24, 2014, 11:46:23 AM
All I know on this is that I am perfectly happy with the education my two boys received...and perfectly happy with the education my daughter is currently getting. One son probably under achieved academically. His (and my) fault. Not the fault of those who taught him. The other two had grades that were consistent with how they tested throughout all 12 years. It always seems to me like people want to blame the system, or change the way we educate when there does not appear to be an issue with how their taught. The problems as I see it are with the parents, and the students themselves that aren't willing to learn, or parents who do not hold their kids accountable. I made mistakes as a parent, but can thankfully say I did not blame their teachers for the mistakes I, or my kids made.
Couldn't agree more!
The state is, in the end, our "boss." Still are.
Thing is, I have to answer to the state per documentation. I have to answer to parents and kids to their faces.
I don't think it's an attitude so much as a healthy position my district endorses pretty well.
You're right about parents, though. You spend twice as much, easily, on those who have no positive parental influence.
Then again, you get other parents/kids, it's like autopilot.
Thanks to those good parents who I see taking other kids under their wing so absent fathers, and the like, don't put such a huge dent in a less fortunate kid's future. Still some real mean and women left in this world. Don't believe all the bad news. There's plenty of good out there. Take a good look around next time you're at a wrestling tournament. Good stuff.
Quote from: wrestlersdad on October 24, 2014, 11:54:33 AM
My comment to BigG about more in the teaching profession was directed at his last statement
"Oh well, I'm not in it to please the state as much as the kids and their folks."
I wish more teachers had THAT attitude. I have not seen that attitude reflected my the majority of teachers. Some, yes. The majority, no way.
Sorry if I was not clear and may have unintentionally offended someone.
Your perception is flawed. Teachers must do what the state says to keep their license. Teachers teach because of and for the kids. Those who don't generally aren't in the profession more than a few years. More money, easier money elsewhere. So majority, correction, vast majority of teachers are in it to work with kids.
Yup.
My district doesn't pay super great, but they are competitive, because instead of taking every step to look good through the state lens ( gotta do what ya gotta do) we hope have that kid BE good. If we're judged by how many go to 4 years, then we'll look pretty mediocre. If you look at who goes on to gainful employment and no societal leeching, we're pretty dang good. Good citizens don't need four years of university to be good citizens. Healthy and happy is the big goal.
Quote from: Handles II on October 24, 2014, 12:32:05 PM
Quote from: wrestlersdad on October 24, 2014, 11:54:33 AM
My comment to BigG about more in the teaching profession was directed at his last statement
"Oh well, I'm not in it to please the state as much as the kids and their folks."
I wish more teachers had THAT attitude. I have not seen that attitude reflected my the majority of teachers. Some, yes. The majority, no way.
Sorry if I was not clear and may have unintentionally offended someone.
Your perception is flawed. Teachers must do what the state says to keep their license. Teachers teach because of and for the kids. Those who don't generally aren't in the profession more than a few years. More money, easier money elsewhere. So majority, correction, vast majority of teachers are in it to work with kids.
So no Teachers choose it because it's a career and they can make living then why not do it for free?
The only thing missing is the halo........👼
I took mine off to polish it. ;D
Quote from: Ghetto on October 24, 2014, 08:20:52 PM
I took mine off to polish it. ;D
Better than pawning it........💫🙏
Obviously, nobody on here works for free, but we all hope to have the ability to support our families through our labors. That doesn't mean that we aren't motivated by the work we do and it certainly does not make us less of a professional in our field.
Related:
http://dianeravitch.net/2014/11/02/nancy-flanagan-it-is-not-impossible-to-fire-bad-teachers/
Good read, MNbadger. The author's assertions are consistent with my own observations, my training in school administration, as well as what I have heard from friends and relatives whom are school administrators.
+1000
Testing is way out of hand, and designed to do a few things 1. Make money 2. judge the teacher/school 3. judge the student.
I'll use my own 5th grade son as an example. September reading test he tested at an 8.1 grade level. Just got the January results back and he dropped to a 7.0 grade level.
I know he didn't get not smarter ;). I know he can still read and comprehend as well today as he did in august. I asked him what happened. He said when they tested, the classroom through the wall were doing a hands-on project and it was kind of loud, and he couldn't concentrate.
This kind of stuff happens all the time, and it is a great example of why these tests actually have no meaning, other than a very general one.
If a state legislator got a look at his test, he would conclude that the school and teacher were not doing their jobs properly and could punish them.
No, that can't be accurate. Teachers are technicians and kids are machines that they build.... and all the machines work flawlessly every time, at the same time. ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Quote from: Handles II on January 20, 2015, 11:15:29 AM
+1000
Testing is way out of hand, and designed to do a few things 1. Make money 2. judge the teacher/school 3. judge the student.
I'll use my own 5th grade son as an example. September reading test he tested at an 8.1 grade level. Just got the January results back and he dropped to a 7.0 grade level.
I know he didn't get not smarter ;). I know he can still read and comprehend as well today as he did in august. I asked him what happened. He said when they tested, the classroom through the wall were doing a hands-on project and it was kind of loud, and he couldn't concentrate.
This kind of stuff happens all the time, and it is a great example of why these tests actually have no meaning, other than a very general one.
If a state legislator got a look at his test, he would conclude that the school and teacher were not doing their jobs properly and could punish them.
I would say that someone should ask those questions whether that be you (as you did) or the district or the state. If your son was producing widgets and he produced 7 units instead of 8 or if the quality was 7 instead of 8, wouldn't the company or customer at a minimum inquire (as you did) and likely ask for a change to improve the results. Obviously two points aren't enough data to go off but I personally like the testing and ask about changes to the tests, that have happened over time. My kids care enough to ask what TAN and COS mean on their MAP test as they haven't been exposed to that yet.
Good points about educating kids...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2015/01/20/ten-obvious-truths-about-educating-kids-that-keep-getting-ignored/
Quote from: bigoil on January 20, 2015, 01:07:25 PM
Quote from: Handles II on January 20, 2015, 11:15:29 AM
+1000
Testing is way out of hand, and designed to do a few things 1. Make money 2. judge the teacher/school 3. judge the student.
I'll use my own 5th grade son as an example. September reading test he tested at an 8.1 grade level. Just got the January results back and he dropped to a 7.0 grade level.
I know he didn't get not smarter ;). I know he can still read and comprehend as well today as he did in august. I asked him what happened. He said when they tested, the classroom through the wall were doing a hands-on project and it was kind of loud, and he couldn't concentrate.
This kind of stuff happens all the time, and it is a great example of why these tests actually have no meaning, other than a very general one.
If a state legislator got a look at his test, he would conclude that the school and teacher were not doing their jobs properly and could punish them.
I would say that someone should ask those questions whether that be you (as you did) or the district or the state. If your son was producing widgets and he produced 7 units instead of 8 or if the quality was 7 instead of 8, wouldn't the company or customer at a minimum inquire (as you did) and likely ask for a change to improve the results. Obviously two points aren't enough data to go off but I personally like the testing and ask about changes to the tests, that have happened over time. My kids care enough to ask what TAN and COS mean on their MAP test as they haven't been exposed to that yet.
See, that's the business side of it coming into education. The quality nor the widgets have anything to do with it. My kid simply answered some questions wrong because of a distraction. That has ZERO to do with his ability to read, comprehend, or answer questions on a teacher-given quiz or test, daily work, or in life.
That these tests have become a "tool" to use as a way to punish a school, a teacher, or judge a child's intelligence is outrageous. I don't need to ask for a change, or a re-test, or anything of the sort. I'm also very aware that on his first test, he might have guessed correctly a few times and that artificially elevated his first score.
To an unknowing parent, or a business minded individual, yes, it sure looks like he got lots more stupider in 6 months and that darn skool and teacher are obviously two blame ;). But they aren't, and he didn't. And that is the entire point. It is the point that you and so many other simply don't get, or refuse to get. I'm sure you learned from teachers in your past. Try it again, we are all saying the same things about standardized testing, and have been for years.
Quote from: Handles II on January 20, 2015, 10:03:03 PM
Quote from: bigoil on January 20, 2015, 01:07:25 PM
Quote from: Handles II on January 20, 2015, 11:15:29 AM
+1000
Testing is way out of hand, and designed to do a few things 1. Make money 2. judge the teacher/school 3. judge the student.
I'll use my own 5th grade son as an example. September reading test he tested at an 8.1 grade level. Just got the January results back and he dropped to a 7.0 grade level.
I know he didn't get not smarter ;). I know he can still read and comprehend as well today as he did in august. I asked him what happened. He said when they tested, the classroom through the wall were doing a hands-on project and it was kind of loud, and he couldn't concentrate.
This kind of stuff happens all the time, and it is a great example of why these tests actually have no meaning, other than a very general one.
If a state legislator got a look at his test, he would conclude that the school and teacher were not doing their jobs properly and could punish them.
I would say that someone should ask those questions whether that be you (as you did) or the district or the state. If your son was producing widgets and he produced 7 units instead of 8 or if the quality was 7 instead of 8, wouldn't the company or customer at a minimum inquire (as you did) and likely ask for a change to improve the results. Obviously two points aren't enough data to go off but I personally like the testing and ask about changes to the tests, that have happened over time. My kids care enough to ask what TAN and COS mean on their MAP test as they haven't been exposed to that yet.
See, that's the business side of it coming into education. The quality nor the widgets have anything to do with it. My kid simply answered some questions wrong because of a distraction. That has ZERO to do with his ability to read, comprehend, or answer questions on a teacher-given quiz or test, daily work, or in life.
That these tests have become a "tool" to use as a way to punish a school, a teacher, or judge a child's intelligence is outrageous. I don't need to ask for a change, or a re-test, or anything of the sort. I'm also very aware that on his first test, he might have guessed correctly a few times and that artificially elevated his first score.
To an unknowing parent, or a business minded individual, yes, it sure looks like he got lots more stupider in 6 months and that darn skool and teacher are obviously two blame ;). But they aren't, and he didn't. And that is the entire point. It is the point that you and so many other simply don't get, or refuse to get. I'm sure you learned from teachers in your past. Try it again, we are all saying the same things about standardized testing, and have been for years.
2 points clearly don't make a sample size to judge. My kids have been tested for years and clearly shows a pattern. Do you not see that?
Since 2 points don't make a sample size, would you look into why test scores were down for 100 kids or assume they all guessed good last time? I'd look into it and try to solve the problem.
Sorry, not all teachers don't believe in testing.
The overwhelming majority of today's teachers disagree with the current testing regimen and how it is being used. It does not do what it is purported to do. Instead, it drains huge amounts of money and time from the educational experience, that could be utilized much more effectively.
No use fish, Bigoil doesn't believe it, even when teachers are saying it to him. If you won't believe us bigoil, just do a google search. The number of teachers AND parents against the current methods of standardized testing is huge and growing as more people learn that students are not actually widgets.
So HandlesII without a cut and paste what is the alternative?
How do we measure the impact or effectiveness or teaching and education methodology?
How do we measure teacher effectiveness on an individual basis?
Frankly this topic has been beat to death here and you have the same division between folks here as you do in the general public.
What is interesting is educators that I have spoke too about this feel testing is an integral part of measure,ent of success and considering tha Colleges require test results among other things for acceptance why not get these young folks ready.
Here is another thing isn't each match a wrestlers has a "test" of wha they are learning and retaining in practice?
Quote from: Handles II on January 21, 2015, 07:48:23 AM
No use fish, Bigoil doesn't believe it, even when teachers are saying it to him. If you won't believe us bigoil, just do a google search. The number of teachers AND parents against the current methods of standardized testing is huge and growing as more people learn that students are not actually widgets.
Do you believe we should not test kids at all? I don't think we need to take MAP testing 3 times per year. Once a year is good for me as I then have several data points per child. Again, my take is on my children not on "judging" you. My point is that if I am an administrator and seen a huge drop from an entire class, I might look into it and same if I seen a major increase. What could be done to replicate how the kids learned or the environment they were tested. Seems like common sense to me.
Quote from: bigoil on January 20, 2015, 01:07:25 PM
Quote from: Handles II on January 20, 2015, 11:15:29 AM
+1000
Testing is way out of hand, and designed to do a few things 1. Make money 2. judge the teacher/school 3. judge the student.
I'll use my own 5th grade son as an example. September reading test he tested at an 8.1 grade level. Just got the January results back and he dropped to a 7.0 grade level.
I know he didn't get not smarter ;). I know he can still read and comprehend as well today as he did in august. I asked him what happened. He said when they tested, the classroom through the wall were doing a hands-on project and it was kind of loud, and he couldn't concentrate.
This kind of stuff happens all the time, and it is a great example of why these tests actually have no meaning, other than a very general one.
If a state legislator got a look at his test, he would conclude that the school and teacher were not doing their jobs properly and could punish them.
I would say that someone should ask those questions whether that be you (as you did) or the district or the state. If your son was producing widgets and he produced 7 units instead of 8 or if the quality was 7 instead of 8, wouldn't the company or customer at a minimum inquire (as you did) and likely ask for a change to improve the results. Obviously two points aren't enough data to go off but I personally like the testing and ask about changes to the tests, that have happened over time. My kids care enough to ask what TAN and COS mean on their MAP test as they haven't been exposed to that yet.
Do you expect ALL emplyees to do the exact same work?
I am sure your an equal opurnity employer and does a person with a handicap have the same expections as someone without?
Do you have a mentally chanalleged worker working with a very gifted worker side by side?
I can NOT compare in this case a 10 year with someone in the work force as to the abilty to do a job or be constitant in doing the same day in and day out.
The middle schooler that I coach can be all over the specturm in terms of how the aditude is from one day to another. I will say the ones that seems to have a much lesser swing in what effects them seem to do much better in day to day stuff.
Before anyone gets on the band wagon that I am not for test, yes I am for test because that is what I judge my kid by being a non-teacher. Though I also take those tests as a marking point as to where he/she is on the scale and what needs to be done to improve, work on or move to another step. I dont base a single test as to where my child is on a whole that I feel many do.
A worker in the work force hopefully can handle some stress and can still be productive at there job. Put a child in a divorced family and lets see if their test scores change while that child goes through a divorce.
Death in the family
Divorce
punishment for doing something wrong
lack of sleep due to all the extra stuff todays children do.
Changing families
Doesnt click with the teacher
God forbid that middle school kids are going through some serious changes with their bodies
During 1 year of testing for a child that is in that 10 year old range or middle school I believe should be done on a 3 year curve because YES during one single year you could see some pretty interesting changes,
Use test for what they are worth, a guideline for age devoplment and that is it.
I just can NOT in the case handles mentioned justify that anyone failed with the test that he talks about. Take a look at the age, enviorment or just where the kid is at that point. Lets see a 3 year curve to tell the real story.
Since the brain of every student has not yet matured, matures at its own individual pace, matures into its own unique pattern of individual strengths and weaknesses, and won't mature until well into adulthood, standardized tests are incapable of accurately measuring student progress in a way that accurately defines student progress and potential. The educational process essentially plants seeds of comprehension that often don't germinate for several years. There are countless examples of kids who struggled academically, had poor test results, etc., yet were highly-successful adults. Concepts with which we struggled during childhood eventually made sense in adulthood, as our brains matured and we connected vague remembrances with current, real-life experiences and challenges. Several of us who post on here probably fit that mold. I know that I am certainly an example of it.
Howavi,,,,,,I have to give this example and I would like your honest thoughts on this.
You come to me and want me to teach your child a double leg takedown. I have 1 season of wrestling to do this but he is in a group of 30 other kids.
So I work with your child the same as the others on the team for the entire season and at the end of the season you child does not do a double leg that is any better than the first day of practice.
Under your thought the test was to do a double leg and I failed miserably in your eyes because in 1 season your child double leg did NOT get any better. I should be fired then or be put on notice because your child could not achieve the goal you wanted.
OK, for some reason your child really liked wrestling (which is good) and continued to stick it out for 3 more years. At the end of the third year he is doing that double leg that you wanted. Same coach doing it but it took 3 years to achieve your goal for your child.
Where is the coach now?
O ya, your child grew X amount in weight and height
Voice was noticably lower
Now by your thoughts that if you see in 1 year no improvement or a decline then there should be something done. Sure I have no problem with it but give it some time, people learn at different speeds.
Also, you in your position can hire the people you WANT to hire. Your just not given a group of people and are expected to achieve certain goals. You get to hire who you feel can achieve your goals.
Whether it is public, private or charter, your limited in who you can actually put in your school rooms. Sure some have more influence in class dynamics but if your asked to make ALL 10 year olds or probably any school age children to learn at the same level your maybe not on the same page as many people in education are. Great you have goals but while your children are achieving, maybe your childs friend or neighbor is not achieving at the same rate.
I personally think that many get caught up on test scores, much like wins and losses.
Sure I look at those 3 things I mentioned also and get caught up in the score, wins and losses. But really a test is a measuring stick as to what to improve and work on. Much like wins and losses. If you are losing you need to get back to the basics to achieve that goal of winning. If your winning then it is time to take the next step in your goals and take on new tasks.
I look at dual meets as a gauge of what as a team needs to be done in practice. What is lacking, what needs improvement to become better for the next dual meet. It is not about the Wins or Losses it is about what needs to be done to get better.
Now I am still talking about the middle school aged students. I look at high school, especially the senior year as to where you want to be in terms of success.
I have to steal this one and I will try to do it justice.
If your goal is to graduate high school than you need to work to achieve that goal. If your goal is to graduate college than everything leading up to the college degree should be learning and working for it. Then if your goal is to be a DR (example) then all the schooling up to that point should be geared to be a DR. Meaning that you need to take the classes during those years to achieve your goals. At imes maybe taking tests or classes that may drop your GPA but will help your attain your goal of what ever it is.
Now with the wrestling
if your goal is to win a high school state title as a senior, every thing you do to that point should be geared to be the best practice to that point. If your goal is to be a college champ than everything up to that point should be practice. If your goal is to be a olypmic champ, then all the work you do should be training up to that point.
I know this may sound strange but people train/learn at different levels, speeds and goals.
Quote from: imnofish on January 21, 2015, 12:06:58 PM
Since the brain of every student has not yet matured, matures at its own individual pace, matures into its own unique pattern of individual strengths and weaknesses, and won't mature until well into adulthood, standardized tests are incapable of accurately measuring student progress in a way that accurately defines student progress and potential. The educational process essentially plants seeds of comprehension that often don't germinate for several years. There are countless examples of kids who struggled academically, had poor test results, etc., yet were highly-successful adults. Concepts with which we struggled during childhood eventually made sense in adulthood, as our brains matured and we connected vague remembrances with current, real-life experiences and challenges. Several of us who post on here probably fit that mold. I know that I am certainly an example of it.
I kind of sound like your post.
Didnt care one ounce about high school only to stay eligible for sports. Then fast forward, I matured and found something I like and learned as much as possible and I personally believe I have become good at my job or career. Took me awhile but I somehow got it but I still have teachers to this day that stuck by me whether I wanted it or not and are generally pleased that I matured and on whatever level became productive to this world.
The tests are the same across the State so if you have a school that is far below average then it would seem they are not collectively doing something as well as th average Schools. Likewise if a school is far above it would be nice to know why and how would that translate to those below average.
A standards are used everyday in life.
Measurement of gas for example.
Employee evaluations ... for example sales gross margin.
Certified welder a take tests.
Plumbers take tests.
Most things where you are "Certified" requires proof of a competence level that shows you are up to the standard.
Matches won vs losses.
Look at the big picture here.
Also that's why they test several times a year to try and minimize the impact of intangibles.
How does one small school compare to another in vey specific subjects and how do they compare to the average and to the high and the low.
Again what would be an alternative to testing?
Quote from: littleguy301 on January 21, 2015, 12:07:17 PM
Howavi,,,,,,I have to give this example and I would like your honest thoughts on this.
You come to me and want me to teach your child a double leg takedown. I have 1 season of wrestling to do this but he is in a group of 30 other kids.
So I work with your child the same as the others on the team for the entire season and at the end of the season you child does not do a double leg that is any better than the first day of practice.
Under your thought the test was to do a double leg and I failed miserably in your eyes because in 1 season your child double leg did NOT get any better. I should be fired then or be put on notice because your child could not achieve the goal you wanted.
OK, for some reason your child really liked wrestling (which is good) and continued to stick it out for 3 more years. At the end of the third year he is doing that double leg that you wanted. Same coach doing it but it took 3 years to achieve your goal for your child.
Where is the coach now?
O ya, your child grew X amount in weight and height
Voice was noticably lower
Now by your thoughts that if you see in 1 year no improvement or a decline then there should be something done. Sure I have no problem with it but give it some time, people learn at different speeds.
Also, you in your position can hire the people you WANT to hire. Your just not given a group of people and are expected to achieve certain goals. You get to hire who you feel can achieve your goals.
Whether it is public, private or charter, your limited in who you can actually put in your school rooms. Sure some have more influence in class dynamics but if your asked to make ALL 10 year olds or probably any school age children to learn at the same level your maybe not on the same page as many people in education are. Great you have goals but while your children are achieving, maybe your childs friend or neighbor is not achieving at the same rate.
Good example of the individual developmental differences that I referenced in my last post. Even among experienced high school wrestlers, it's very common for kids to not effectively used techniques recently taught, until the following year... often at the beginning of the next season, before receiving any additional instruction on them.
or the method of coaching was adjusted to get the young kid to retain but expectation at level will tell you if he is learning but actual application through test (match) will tell you for sure.
Quote from: ramjet on January 21, 2015, 12:22:34 PM
The tests are the same across the State so if you have a school that is far below average then it would seem they are not collectively doing something as well as th average Schools. Likewise if a school is far above it would be nice to know why and how would that translate to those below average.
A standards are used everyday in life.
Measurement of gas for example.
Employee evaluations ... for example sales gross margin.
Matches won vs losses.
Look at the big picture here.
Also that's why they test several times a year to try and minimize the impact of intangibles.
How does one small school compare to another in vey specific subjects and how do they compare to the average and to the high and the low.
Again what would be an alternative to testing?
The preferred alternative would be a testing regimen that is based on authentic assessment. Students demonstrate the ability to apply skills that demonstrate comprehension of broad, primary objectives, upon which a proven foundation to future knowledge and success acquisition can be built. Kids demonstrate these competencies with hands-on skills application, rather than by filling in bubbles on a sheet of paper. State-trained, professional evaluators score their performances, with the understanding that the results are to be used to inform instruction, going forward, as students develop and mature. The purpose is strictly to inform future group and individual instructional efforts, including curriculum development. It is not used to label, reward, or punish teachers or students.
Quote from: ramjet on January 21, 2015, 12:22:34 PM
The tests are the same across the State so if you have a school that is far below average then it would seem they are not collectively doing something as well as th average Schools. Likewise if a school is far above it would be nice to know why and how would that translate to those below average.
A standards are used everyday in life.
Measurement of gas for example.
Employee evaluations ... for example sales gross margin.
Matches won vs losses.
Look at the big picture here.
Also that's why they test several times a year to try and minimize the impact of intangibles.
How does one small school compare to another in vey specific subjects and how do they compare to the average and to the high and the low.
Again what would be an alternative to testing?
I dont have an alternate to testing but I have an alternate thinking into testing.
Yes you need a starting point and a finish point in your testing but somewhere in the middle your going to have some ups and downs. It is how you address your ups and downs is where I feel the problem lies.
If in general your school is very low in a certain area, then a change of how to get better is in order. But first lets look at the enviorment of those taking the tests. Meaning everything involved.
examples:
class sizes
tax base
school budget
income level
family dynamics
where your district is located
I cannt compare a school of 200 kids in a area that is low tax base, school cuts, large class sizes to a school of a same size enrollment but has small class sizes, good tax base and isnt worried as much about budget issues.
I believe in comparing like schools. Once we can do that then as a whole we can then help the schools at what is maybe looked at as under achieving and then put out some plans and tools to help that school become better with in reason. We first have to identify the problem or the problems some districts have and then as education we can put some plans and tools into effect to help those that are lower to achieve at a better rate.
Also, if you have a district that has scored very well over the years like in the top 5% and they slip to top 7%, I wouldnt be to alarmed either. They are still at the top of the specturm but because they slipped a tad, I wouldnt put that school in the basket of being failing either. I see this often. I have a school in my area that is up in arms and changed alot of the education because the state said they were one of the biggest slipping schools in the area. Basically they were still the top school but since they slipped from the to 3% to top 5% in the state that 2% slip alarmed the education board so much they needed change. No one ever thought to say, hey this school is better than 97% of all state schools to begin with and now is better than only 95% of all schools on tests. I find that almost laughable to change the education aspect because of a 1 year drop but still maintaing a very high standard in education.
Quote from: ramjet on January 21, 2015, 12:31:05 PM
or the method of coaching was adjusted to get the young kid to retain but expectation at level will tell you if he is learning but actual application through test (match) will tell you for sure.
At times a match is not the good test point either. Maybe a practice with a liked skilled wrestler may be a better test. If a wrestler is failing the last thing at times you want is to put that wrestler in a pressure situation like a match with all eyes on them. A wrestlers mental state is to be taken into thought also.
Wins and Losses, interesting way to judge a wrestler before getting into high school.+
Question, would you rather take your wrestler to a youth tourament and rank him a 1 knowing he has a pretty good chance of winning all the matches or enter them as a 5 and have a chance of going 50/50?
I believe at pre-high school that effort and devolpment is better words to use than base it on wins and losses. I personally would rather have my wrestlers go 50/50 wrestling the toughest kids that their ability can handle over trying to base the year on wins and losses. I see to often that people will enter their kids lower than what they are so that wins come easy.
story time: I had a parent come to me and compare 2 different kids to me at the end of the year. The parent stated his child had a 28-4 record, won several tournaments but when it came to regionals that wrestler lost both matchs very badly and was out. He then compared to another kid that did not win any tournament during the year but yet was beating the kids that beat his child. He couldnt understand why a kid that never won a tournament all year could be better than his child that won several tournaments. I found out that this person was entering his child as a beginner all year to win these tournaments and the other wrestler was entered as a 5, wrestled up weights and ages all year and instead of going to all these tournaments build a training program to do on these weekends to become better.
But with that said, neither wrestler went to state but one finished the day and the season .500 and the other finished the day getting pinned pretty quick twice but had an outstanding wins and losses record at the end of the year. Now a few years latter, you guess it the one that went .500 is still plugging along and is getting much better and the one that had several trophies is about at the end of his rope in wrestling.
Quote from: ramjet on January 21, 2015, 12:31:05 PM
or the method of coaching was adjusted to get the young kid to retain but expectation at level will tell you if he is learning but actual application through test (match) will tell you for sure.
Of course coaches adjust their teaching technique, but the variances in the individual time frames for personal proficiency among the wrestlers demonstrate that individual learning curves are beyond the coaches' control. Kids simply don't all respond in the same way, at the same time, to the same stimuli; their brains and bodies develop at their own, individual rates, to their own unique talents. Simply put, we all learn in our own time, in our own way. Some things, we never learn, no matter how hard we and our teachers/parents/coaches work at it. That's not necessarily a bad thing, because we generally tend to excel at something else with which most other people struggle. Not all proficiencies are covered by standardized testing; nor is it possible to identify, quantify, and test them, despite the fact that many of them are essential to future success. Another point to be considered is that all of this high-stakes testing has us believing that failure is always bad and of no value. Failure is simply informed feedback for future learning, whether we are talking about how we execute that double leg takedown or how we mentally approach geometry. In wrestling, a great example can be found in Olympic Champion Ben Peterson's struggles with the double leg takedown. His long, lean build made it a challenge for him to finish the move... until he learned the low (heel-trapping) technique that became his "bread and butter" takedown. Had his coaches insisted on repetitive focus upon traditional technique, his story probably would have had a much less successful ending. By his own admission, this change of direction was a pivotal moment in his journey to excellence. That's because it was predicated upon identifying and developing his personal strengths, rather than seeing them as liabilities to be overcome, with the intent of making him like every other wrestler.
All points taken guys.
LG what you describe as potential tough scenarios in A District are something most Districts need to overcome and an average is taking that into account. So with that said then it's good for that District to know how they compare those stats are available. Heck as Parent you may be very interested how the school you're child attending is doing compared to the average. MAP testing several times is to try and average out those extrodinaire circumstances.
Fish in the end the test on the mat during a dual meet or weekend tournament is where the program, the coach , and the wrestler are judged. Testing during practice is the classroom nothing wrong with practice tests that is a methodology choosen by the teacher/coach to improve test scores. If it works then fantastic if it does not adjustments need to be made.
I wonder if the educators should collaborate more on methods and ideas to improve rather than getting rid of the tool used to measure.
LG,
I think you and I are on the same page. One test does not make an issue and like you I track the progress of my children, 3 of which are completely different students, kids, care, etc. I don't expect them to be the same. I do expect to see a pattern of development.
In the case of a classroom, you have a sample size of 25 to several hundred in a grade perhaps that can look at development year over year. I would not be out for heads more likely looking for positives and how do we do more positives.
Can you teach my kid a half nelson :) ?
Bigoil do the KT only look at the numbers once a year and look a sample of those numbers?
Quote from: ramjet on January 21, 2015, 01:27:34 PM
All points taken guys.
LG what you describe as potential tough scenarios in A District are something most Districts need to overcome and an average is taking that into account. So with that said then it's good for that District to know how they compare those stats are available. Heck as Parent you may be very interested how the school you're child attending is doing compared to the average. MAP testing several times is to try and average out those extrodinaire circumstances.
Fish in the end the test on the mat during a dual meet or weekend tournament is where the program, the coach , and the wrestler are judged. Testing during practice is the classroom nothing wrong with practice tests that is a methodology choosen by the teacher/coach to improve test scores. If it works then fantastic if it does not adjustments need to be made.
I wonder if the educators should collaborate more on methods and ideas to improve rather than getting rid of the tool used to measure.
All of that is going on. It's not that people are against testing; it's just that it's being overdone. Frequent testing has become epidemic, as short-term micromanagement of teaching and learning has become the norm. Lots of instructional time lost that could ultimately benefit the big, long-range picture.
You guys just don't, and apparently won't get it.
Kids aren't Kwik Trip numbers.
Kids aren't widgets.
Kids have numerous factors that can drastically skew their test results, be that a test once a year, or twenty times per year. And that can be an individual kid as well as an entire grade or district that have little or nothing to do with the effectiveness of a teacher, or a school, or the intelligence of the student or student body.
Kids, unlike widgets or KT numbers have these things called lives. Lives and the daily changes and fluctuations within those lives, as well as the basic demographics in a district have a much greater impact on scores than most people will realize or admit. As Ghetto said in an earlier post, some of his student's difficulty with reading drastically effect their math scores, yet on a math quiz they do very well. Even differences in regional dialect and verbiage can play a huge part in the test results and cause one district to "seem" like they are failing, when they aren't.
While I'm not entirely against standardized testing, I and most other educators are against the cost, how they are written and graded, and when they are implemented, utilized, and analyzed, especially when analyzed by those who don't care to understand the difference between a widget and a student.
Those of you who are so very much in favor of our current testing. Please let your legislators know that you want the same tests and the same frequency of tests to be completed at every private, for-profit and voucher school in the state.
Fish how the data is applied depends on the end result. If the end result is an increase in awareness and effort to improve education there is no way you would convince me that it is bad.
Now is it over done? On one hand you want to throw out the variables and not use the results of one test, so multiple tests in fact do that and using averages through out the state and using those results based on multiple samples and the average of like size schools also does the best to give benefit of doubt and consider or overcome uncontrollable circumstances.
So somewhere there has to be measure we all agree on and common sense tells us it has to have standards and use averages trying take out those uncontrollable variances.
I still have no response as to how you measure or determine that standards are being met. I think we mostly agree just because you say so does not make it so.......
HandlesII you right away attack both Bigoil and I, and you further insulted us by saying we do not understand kids well I have three children and two grandchildren I will not list thier accomplishments but you are completely wrong you also know that my Wife works in education and I can tell we discuss at length many of these issues and she is not shy about sharing her perspective and opinion. I listen to her intently as she is very good at what she does. So you are as unfair to Bigoil and myself as you feel we are with you. We just have not posted that but you have.
I asked you a legitimate question as to what you suggest to measure or assure that educational standards are being met?
Testing is not only about the children it is as much about the Adminstration, Teachers, School Board, Parents, kids and community. This group has to work together to ensure that the kids are afforded the best environment opportunity and tools to get the best education possible. That said the Techers are held accountable. Parents are not so much but educators know that going in they are getting paid for the job, and the Adminstration and Board need to consider that when evaluating any Teachers and test scores. Sure the DPI does not but It is impossible for them to do that because of the magnitude of the differences in those variables. So if the test is standard across the Board everyone has the same goals each District has to examine how to get the most from the variables mentioned above to achieve high scores or at least average or above. Average being the listed goal.
By the way when I pay my widgets college tuition I will let them know I am clueless about them or thier education....😄
Quote from: Handles II on January 21, 2015, 03:01:51 PM
You guys just don't, and apparently won't get it.
Kids aren't Kwik Trip numbers.
Kids aren't widgets.
Kids have numerous factors that can drastically skew their test results, be that a test once a year, or twenty times per year. And that can be an individual kid as well as an entire grade or district that have little or nothing to do with the effectiveness of a teacher, or a school, or the intelligence of the student or student body.
Kids, unlike widgets or KT numbers have these things called lives. Lives and the daily changes and fluctuations within those lives, as well as the basic demographics in a district have a much greater impact on scores than most people will realize or admit. As Ghetto said in an earlier post, some of his student's difficulty with reading drastically effect their math scores, yet on a math quiz they do very well. Even differences in regional dialect and verbiage can play a huge part in the test results and cause one district to "seem" like they are failing, when they aren't.
While I'm not entirely against standardized testing, I and most other educators are against the cost, how they are written and graded, and when they are implemented, utilized, and analyzed, especially when analyzed by those who don't care to understand the difference between a widget and a student.
Those of you who are so very much in favor of our current testing. Please let your legislators know that you want the same tests and the same frequency of tests to be completed at every private, for-profit and voucher school in the state.
+1
Quote from: ramjet on January 21, 2015, 04:04:39 PM
Fish how the data is applied depends on the end result. If the end result is an increase in awareness and effort to improve education there is no way you would convince me that it is bad.
Now is it over done? On one hand you want to throw out the variables and not use the results of one test, so multiple tests in fact do that and using averages through out the state and using those results based on multiple samples and the average of like size schools also does the best to give benefit of doubt and consider or overcome uncontrollable circumstances.
So somewhere there has to be measure we all agree on and common sense tells us it has to have standards and use averages trying take out those uncontrollable variances.
I still have no response as to how you measure or determine that standards are being met. I think we mostly agree just because you say so does not make it so.......
HandlesII you right away attack both Bigoil and I, and you further insulted us by saying we do not understand kids well I have three children and two grandchildren I will not list thier accomplishments but you are completely wrong you also know that my Wife works in education and I can tell we discuss at length many of these issues and she is not shy about sharing her perspective and opinion. I listen to her intently as she is very good at what she does. So you are as unfair to Bigoil and myself as you feel we are with you. We just have not posted that but you have.
I asked you a legitimate question as to what you suggest to measure or assure that educational standards are being met?
Testing is not only about the children it is as much about the Adminstration, Teachers, School Board, Parents, kids and community. This group has to work together to ensure that the kids are afforded the best environment opportunity and tools to get the best education possible. That said the Techers are held accountable. Parents are not so much but educators know that going in they are getting paid for the job, and the Adminstration and Board need to consider that when evaluating any Teachers and test scores. Sure the DPI does not but It is impossible for them to do that because of the magnitude of the differences in those variables. So if the test is standard across the Board everyone has the same goals each District has to examine how to get the most from the variables mentioned above to achieve high scores or at least average or above. Average being the listed goal.
By the way when I pay my widgets college tuition I will let them know I am clueless about them or thier education....😄
Kids aren't widgets. Teachers aren't technicians; nor are parents. Holding people accountable to something that contradicts the best brain research, developmental research, educational research, etc., while using it to impose an educational culture that further erodes educational opportunities for students, makes no sense. The annual standardized tests are designed to systematically identify questions that students get right about 1/3 of the time; thus dividing students into 3 different performance "levels." The end result is that the questions most likely to be answered correctly are eliminated from the test; which makes no sense because they are most likely to reflect what they have been taught. Teachers teach the required curriculum; then the test development methods skew the tests away from what they have taught. This has been a longstanding deficiency of standardized, multiple choice tests. Does that sound like a reliable, fair, useful process to you? Two years ago, we were spending $1.7 BILLION on standardized testing and it's not getting any cheaper. There are much better ways to invest those resources, if we truly want to help students learn. As for your question about how I would prefer to measure progress, reference my earlier description of authentic assessment. Before we lost our way, that had actually been used in lieu of standardized tests very successfully (out East; can't recall specific state), so it is already a proven, superior alternative.
http://fairtest.org/exposing-myths-high-stakes-testing
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2013/07/25/how-much-time-do-school-districts-spend-on-standardized-testing-this-much/
http://zhaolearning.com/2012/05/24/follow-the-money-a-high-school-students-take-on-standardized-testing/
Quote from: imnofish on January 21, 2015, 02:36:50 PM
Quote from: ramjet on January 21, 2015, 01:27:34 PM
All points taken guys.
LG what you describe as potential tough scenarios in A District are something most Districts need to overcome and an average is taking that into account. So with that said then it's good for that District to know how they compare those stats are available. Heck as Parent you may be very interested how the school you're child attending is doing compared to the average. MAP testing several times is to try and average out those extrodinaire circumstances.
Fish in the end the test on the mat during a dual meet or weekend tournament is where the program, the coach , and the wrestler are judged. Testing during practice is the classroom nothing wrong with practice tests that is a methodology choosen by the teacher/coach to improve test scores. If it works then fantastic if it does not adjustments need to be made.
I wonder if the educators should collaborate more on methods and ideas to improve rather than getting rid of the tool used to measure.
All of that is going on. It's not that people are against testing; it's just that it's being overdone. Frequent testing has become epidemic, as short-term micromanagement of teaching and learning has become the norm. Lots of instructional time lost that could ultimately benefit the big, long-range picture.
Fish, I agree with you on everything you just said.
Quote from: bigoil on January 21, 2015, 04:49:06 PM
Quote from: imnofish on January 21, 2015, 02:36:50 PM
Quote from: ramjet on January 21, 2015, 01:27:34 PM
All points taken guys.
LG what you describe as potential tough scenarios in A District are something most Districts need to overcome and an average is taking that into account. So with that said then it's good for that District to know how they compare those stats are available. Heck as Parent you may be very interested how the school you're child attending is doing compared to the average. MAP testing several times is to try and average out those extrodinaire circumstances.
Fish in the end the test on the mat during a dual meet or weekend tournament is where the program, the coach , and the wrestler are judged. Testing during practice is the classroom nothing wrong with practice tests that is a methodology choosen by the teacher/coach to improve test scores. If it works then fantastic if it does not adjustments need to be made.
I wonder if the educators should collaborate more on methods and ideas to improve rather than getting rid of the tool used to measure.
All of that is going on. It's not that people are against testing; it's just that it's being overdone. Frequent testing has become epidemic, as short-term micromanagement of teaching and learning has become the norm. Lots of instructional time lost that could ultimately benefit the big, long-range picture.
Fish, I agree with you on everything you just said.
+1 8)
I do not I think the biggest opposition by some of you is you do not like the accountability it's similar to opposition to open classrooms in that "how dare a common person come and tell me what I a doing right or wrong" that's poor attitude in that we have things to learn and should be open again not one of you retired professionals have suggested or even hinted at what can work for to see if the efforts and time is getting any results. Perhaps we should just wait 4 years after some graduates to see if any of it stucK?
So I guess you converted BO but I will not be so easy I think measure of success is imperative in ANY job and if the educators and professionals cannot come up with reasonable common sense approach then testing it will be.
By the way would any of your say taking a test in itself is in fact a form of educating?
Funny if a diffcult student is not retaining then it's the kids/parents fault or the upbringing or any of several excuses but if another student is at the top of the heap and is incredibly successful then the Teachers stand up and say it all about them............I feel especially on this site where many of you are in education rarely see or emit thier are substandard performers and methods yet you say that we should all,give you untethered trust and not question or even ask about how why and what are you accomplishing. That amounts to the type or arrogance that got people like SW elected and I would rather see some open minds and ears and eyes and look for improvement and strive for excellence and how in the heck do you tell if you are making any? Because you say so? Come on that is just irresponsible. I think it is along the same lines as a trophy for everyone no matter what they do just as long as they are there........
I also would like to know if you oppose College Entrance exams and standards?
Quote from: ramjet on January 21, 2015, 05:40:13 PM
I do not I think the biggest opposition by some of you is you do not like the accountability it's similar to opposition to open classrooms in that "how dare a common person come and tell me what I a doing right or wrong" that's poor attitude in that we have things to learn and should be open again not one of you retired professionals have suggested or even hinted at what can work for to see if the efforts and time is getting any results. Perhaps we should just wait 4 years after some graduates to see if any of it stucK?
So I guess you converted BO but I will not be so easy I think measure of success is imperative in ANY job and if the educators and professionals cannot come up with reasonable common sense approach then testing it will be.
By the way would anynofmyour say taking a test in itself is in fact a form of educating?
I certainly don't see a problem with anyone being accountable. I welcomed the ongoing evaluation and feedback that I received from my supervisors during my career. I also enjoyed the other side of that coin, after administration appointed me as a mentor to young teachers (as well as some veteran teachers who needed improvement) and while I was a perennial leader of a team of teachers in professional and curriculum development. I also led the formulation, adoption, and implementation of a unique, research-based, school discipline program that significantly improved school culture, learning environments, teacher effectiveness, and student performance. Remember, when you hear from me on this topic, you are dealing with someone with a strong background in teaching, School Administration/Educational Leadership, and Curriculum Development, so my perspective is much broader than you apparently think. Unfortunately, accountability has been redefined in a way that is counterproductive to best educational practices. Having the background to recognize that and recommend better alternatives does not make me an apologist for teachers.
That's a heck of resume Fish and admirable. But if a young man scores low in particular topic and you can provide intervention to helpmeet that subject up tomorrow I have hard time seeing that as bad thing. These are the things that these tests do they do not allow students to fall through the cracks they identify those with issues that Amy not otherwise be identified. Worse scenario is that you do not test and that person gets by so speak and come time for College entrance exams falls on thier face. Not good when they may be 6 months from leaving high school. Better to identify and take action to improve years in advance of that scenario. You know as well as I without standards certain teachers use thier style and that style frankly may fall short of real world needs and requirements for success in college and beyond.
I do apologize I was not trying to make this personal please do no take anything onnthisntopic as directed towards you personally, but this is a frustrating topic for me in that it seems that some educators do not want or accept accountability and they just Echo that of which they read in the monthly publications or websites. It als leads me to think they have something to hide.
Ram,
I'm not converted, fish said he agrees with testing. Even though handles indicated ALL teachers are against testing. I will take him at his word that he supports testing.
He also said there is too much testing and I'm in agreement, I have kids taking 3 MAP tests, a state test, etc in one year. My kids start to obsess with the score. Give us a benchmark each year, if necessary for the State t test every 3-4 years have at it.
He also alluded to micromanagement of learning. Changing styles every couple of years is ridiculous.
I also know that the testing takes some time out of normal instruction as well as teaching to a test clearly takes place in some curriculum.
Quote from: ramjet on January 21, 2015, 01:27:34 PM
All points taken guys.
LG what you describe as potential tough scenarios in A District are something most Districts need to overcome and an average is taking that into account. So with that said then it's good for that District to know how they compare those stats are available. Heck as Parent you may be very interested how the school you're child attending is doing compared to the average. MAP testing several times is to try and average out those extrodinaire circumstances.
Fish in the end the test on the mat during a dual meet or weekend tournament is where the program, the coach , and the wrestler are judged. Testing during practice is the classroom nothing wrong with practice tests that is a methodology choosen by the teacher/coach to improve test scores. If it works then fantastic if it does not adjustments need to be made.
I wonder if the educators should collaborate more on methods and ideas to improve rather than getting rid of the tool used to measure.
I do want to know and yes I compare my school against schools from all over the state, schools in my conference, like sized schools and school that are much bigger and smaller.
I usually take a school around my size and have in the ball park same situations as my school,,,,as in town size, tax base, class size and such. That is were I do my compare as rating against like oppents if you would like to say. I do not on my hard line compare try to compare a school of the same size from lets say the Milwaukee area to my area. Completly different in all areas so hard to do a fair compare from top to bottom. Apples to oranges is a better way of saying it.
It would be like if I was a 45 pounder and looking to get to state my senior year, I would look at the classes a weight up and a weight down from me to see what the route would be. If I did make it to state then I would compare against other regions. I would NOT be looking at weight classes 3 up from me or 3 down from me because that would not be a good compare because I aint getting that big or that small.
I just dont like the idea that testing is a way to judge students and teachers at their education or jobs.
Sure there has to be a way to hold teacher accountable but comparing students as products is not the route I would like to take. Sure if testing is the only way to show a students progress, I guess that is what sine may have to do but I would rather have a educator that actually cares about my child more than a widget. My child breaths, eats, smiles and show personality most widgets do not.
Sure I get how schools are run like business but when it comes down to the students, human touch is still in my mind the best way.
Quote from: ramjet on January 21, 2015, 06:31:44 PM
That's a heck of resume Fish and admirable. But if a young man scores low in particular topic and you can provide intervention to helpmeet that subject up tomorrow I have hard time seeing that as bad thing. These are the things that these tests do they do not allow students to fall through the cracks they identify those with issues that Amy not otherwise be identified. Worse scenario is that you do not test and that person gets by so speak and come time for College entrance exams falls on thier face. Not good when they may be 6 months from leaving high school. Better to identify and take action to improve years in advance of that scenario. You know as well as I without standards certain teachers use thier style and that style frankly may fall short of real world needs and requirements for success in college and beyond.
I do apologize I was not trying to make this personal please do no take anything onnthisntopic as directed towards you personally, but this is a frustrating topic for me in that it seems that some educators do not want or accept accountability and they just Echo that of which they read in the monthly publications or websites. It als leads me to think they have something to hide.
I didn't take it personally. I just wanted you to understand my frame of reference. I really don't see this as a situation in which teachers have something to hide. I see this as a situation in which an entire profession has been put under so much pressure that it's unbearable. They are in the trenches every day and see what's going on, what works, and what doesn't work. I respect their opinions, because they are living it; the rest of the public simply does not have their frame of reference, but echos what
they read in their own publications or websites. It's darn scary to find yourself under fire every day, while you are honestly doing the best you can for kids, knowing that the preferred methodology and standards
will continue to change at the drop of a hat... at the whim of people who know less about your job than you do. The popular, but misguided, narrative that they are incompetent invites the incorrect assumption that they have something to hide, IMO. Like I said, I'm not against testing, but I'm against how it's being misused today. The biggest losers in all this will ultimately be the students, which adds tremendous frustration and stress to their teachers' lives. Teachers are very emotionally vested in the welfare of their students and they are notorious for fighting on their behalf. We are missing the boat, if we mistake that resistance for an attempt to "hide something."
Quote from: bigoil on January 21, 2015, 08:39:33 PM
Ram,
I'm not converted, fish said he agrees with testing. Even though handles indicated ALL teachers are against testing. I will take him at his word that he supports testing.
He also said there is too much testing and I'm in agreement, I have kids taking 3 MAP tests, a state test, etc in one year. My kids start to obsess with the score. Give us a benchmark each year, if necessary for the State t test every 3-4 years have at it.
He also alluded to micromanagement of learning. Changing styles every couple of years is ridiculous.
I also know that the testing takes some time out of normal instruction as well as teaching to a test clearly takes place in some curriculum.
The "we are all saying the same thing" was in reference to the teachers who post on this forum. I should have clarified.
Ramjet, I know you want accountability, teachers and schools to be punished when students don't perform to someone's expectation. Tell you what, once Doctors are punished because their patients are overweight, don't exercise, smoke, or in other ways make decisions that are against doctors orders and cause health problems (ie failing their "Test"), then I'm fine with teachers being punished too. Once dentists are fired, and dental offices are shut down because people aren't brushing and flossing per dentists recommendations and getting cavities (ie failing their "test").
You wouldn't do this because you realize that a doctor or dentist has no actual control over their patients. No matter how often they tell a patient to adjust their behaviors, no matter how much the doctor or dentist cares about the well-being and future of that patient. You are smart enough to know that their patients aren't widgets or KT numbers. Ditto teachers, and perhaps more so. We don't get paid more for working extra with the failing kids. Dentists get paid more for filling a cavity than just a check-up and cleaning. Think about that.
Take the power out of the hands of legislators on something they know nothing about, nor do they care about. This is simply an attack on public schools (which is pretty obvious since the testing is not required in private or voucher schools). Experts in education from teachers-aides on up the ladder are virtually all saying standardized testing, in it's current form, is not good for students or education in general.
HandlesII you continue to espouse what I think and you are as usual ........ WRONG.........The idea of accountability and data gathered from testing is to identify areas where improvement is needed and it helps it certainly is only one piece of the puzzle. Collaboration is an excellent way to assure the consitent application of teaching subjects so that from class's to class and styles have some semblance of consistency. Testing data is a good start to get educators to work together and collaborate on subject matter and identify methods that work with a wide variety of students and groups. Testing can identify problem areas and short comings of methodology and subject matter. Data can initiate Acedemic intervention and get help for these students and classes that are faultering. The earlier the better. It also shows and identifies those methods and educators that are using methods and subject matter that show success and heck that's great thing.
And if a teacher cannot get the job done and is and has been given opportunity to fix the issues does not then maybe education is not for them.
See HandlesII with the above post you proved me right certain Teachers that are closed minded take any and all input as criticism and I should mind my own business ...right? If you are that person NLC you can look in th mirror and say for sure. In my District I know two Teachers with that attirute but it is only those two the rest are fantastic Proffessional open minded hard working educators.
Quote from: Handles II on January 22, 2015, 07:47:49 AM
Quote from: bigoil on January 21, 2015, 08:39:33 PM
Ram,
I'm not converted, fish said he agrees with testing. Even though handles indicated ALL teachers are against testing. I will take him at his word that he supports testing.
He also said there is too much testing and I'm in agreement, I have kids taking 3 MAP tests, a state test, etc in one year. My kids start to obsess with the score. Give us a benchmark each year, if necessary for the State t test every 3-4 years have at it.
He also alluded to micromanagement of learning. Changing styles every couple of years is ridiculous.
I also know that the testing takes some time out of normal instruction as well as teaching to a test clearly takes place in some curriculum.
The "we are all saying the same thing" was in reference to the teachers who post on this forum. I should have clarified.
Ramjet, I know you want accountability, teachers and schools to be punished when students don't perform to someone's expectation. Tell you what, once Doctors are punished because their patients are overweight, don't exercise, smoke, or in other ways make decisions that are against doctors orders and cause health problems (ie failing their "Test"), then I'm fine with teachers being punished too. Once dentists are fired, and dental offices are shut down because people aren't brushing and flossing per dentists recommendations and getting cavities (ie failing their "test").
You wouldn't do this because you realize that a doctor or dentist has no actual control over their patients. No matter how often they tell a patient to adjust their behaviors, no matter how much the doctor or dentist cares about the well-being and future of that patient. You are smart enough to know that their patients aren't widgets or KT numbers. Ditto teachers, and perhaps more so. We don't get paid more for working extra with the failing kids. Dentists get paid more for filling a cavity than just a check-up and cleaning. Think about that.
Take the power out of the hands of legislators on something they know nothing about, nor do they care about. This is simply an attack on public schools (which is pretty obvious since the testing is not required in private or voucher schools). Experts in education from teachers-aides on up the ladder are virtually all saying standardized testing, in it's current form, is not good for students or education in general.
Well Handles, I got some bad news for ya. You may want to start looking for your accountability pom poms.
Thanks to a recent piece of healthcare legislation you and many of your fellow educators cheered for this is
exactly what is happening.
Don't pass the test and too many patient gets readmitted within 30 days for any reason - feds are going to penalize that in fact 2/3s of hospitals and providers were financially penalized for this last year. Doesn't matter that the patient was admitted for a heart attack and continued to smoke 2 packs a day and was readmitted for pneumonia - penalized. Doesn't matter that you work in an economically disadvantaged area - same standard as a new hospital in the burbs - penalized. I have admitting privileges in an inpatient Psyc unit and a inpatient AODA facility - want to guess how many readmissions they get in 30 days? My guess would be the equivalent would be financially penalizing the school and teachers if little Jonny gets a D in Math and then another D or F within 30 days in any other class - regardless of what's going on at home, community, SES, etc.
Another beauty in the legislation were are facing now - if you don't get enough people signed up for online health record access - huge financial penalty. I work in a small, rural, hospital and they are facing a significant fine because not enough patients want to do to this or have internet access (our patients tend to be poor and/or old) doesn't matter - Federal government (and again legislation that many of you cheered for) says a huge fine is coming. Again if you are familiar with Infinite Campus - it would be the equivalent of penalizing school districts because not enough parents were logging into Infinite Campus.
Docs get scored on a whole list of quality metrics - your patients doesn't feel like you address pain aggressively enough (i.e. give them enough opiates) you get scored badly on the survey (test) and you get financially penalized. Patient thinks the room is too noisy on the ICU and puts in in the survey - may get dinged in your reimbursments. Patients don't listen to you and continue to smoke - you can get penalized. Patient outcomes - regardless of the patient's behavior - is seen as a hospital and provider failing and there are financial penalties for this. You have a solo practice and don't need an EMR - too bad the feds think you do - penalty. etc, etc.
So even if you think this is "fair" - and since you and many of your cohorts supported it so I will assume you do- just remember the word precedent. It is not established that providers can be held financially responsible for poor outcomes of their patients - how long before some politician with an ax to grind uses this precedent on you?
First ramjet, I'm not wrong.
I'm fine with testing. I give tests. I meet standards and work to get my kids to meet standards. I collaborate, my teaching and work is reviewed by peers and administration. I believe even standardized testing can have some value, but not in the way they are currently implemented and the "power" that gives some to judge schools, teachers, students.
Snide,
You are talking about an entirely different situation and yet one that I do not agree with. I understand that they types of penalties you are speaking of are, like punishing teachers, a very bad way to help or "fix" health care.
Let's backtrack and look at a dentist as that example. Are they punished, are dental offices shut down, if patients come in with cavities?
HandlesII
What do you suggest ? (I do not want a cut and paste) what do YOU think would work better?
Quote from: DrSnide on January 22, 2015, 09:38:56 AM
Quote from: Handles II on January 22, 2015, 07:47:49 AM
Quote from: bigoil on January 21, 2015, 08:39:33 PM
Ram,
I'm not converted, fish said he agrees with testing. Even though handles indicated ALL teachers are against testing. I will take him at his word that he supports testing.
He also said there is too much testing and I'm in agreement, I have kids taking 3 MAP tests, a state test, etc in one year. My kids start to obsess with the score. Give us a benchmark each year, if necessary for the State t test every 3-4 years have at it.
He also alluded to micromanagement of learning. Changing styles every couple of years is ridiculous.
I also know that the testing takes some time out of normal instruction as well as teaching to a test clearly takes place in some curriculum.
The "we are all saying the same thing" was in reference to the teachers who post on this forum. I should have clarified.
Ramjet, I know you want accountability, teachers and schools to be punished when students don't perform to someone's expectation. Tell you what, once Doctors are punished because their patients are overweight, don't exercise, smoke, or in other ways make decisions that are against doctors orders and cause health problems (ie failing their "Test"), then I'm fine with teachers being punished too. Once dentists are fired, and dental offices are shut down because people aren't brushing and flossing per dentists recommendations and getting cavities (ie failing their "test").
You wouldn't do this because you realize that a doctor or dentist has no actual control over their patients. No matter how often they tell a patient to adjust their behaviors, no matter how much the doctor or dentist cares about the well-being and future of that patient. You are smart enough to know that their patients aren't widgets or KT numbers. Ditto teachers, and perhaps more so. We don't get paid more for working extra with the failing kids. Dentists get paid more for filling a cavity than just a check-up and cleaning. Think about that.
Take the power out of the hands of legislators on something they know nothing about, nor do they care about. This is simply an attack on public schools (which is pretty obvious since the testing is not required in private or voucher schools). Experts in education from teachers-aides on up the ladder are virtually all saying standardized testing, in it's current form, is not good for students or education in general.
Well Handles, I got some bad news for ya. You may want to start looking for your accountability pom poms.
Thanks to a recent piece of healthcare legislation you and many of your fellow educators cheered for this is exactly what is happening.
Don't pass the test and too many patient gets readmitted within 30 days for any reason - feds are going to penalize that in fact 2/3s of hospitals and providers were financially penalized for this last year. Doesn't matter that the patient was admitted for a heart attack and continued to smoke 2 packs a day and was readmitted for pneumonia - penalized. Doesn't matter that you work in an economically disadvantaged area - same standard as a new hospital in the burbs - penalized. I have admitting privileges in an inpatient Psyc unit and a inpatient AODA facility - want to guess how many readmissions they get in 30 days? My guess would be the equivalent would be financially penalizing the school and teachers if little Jonny gets a D in Math and then another D or F within 30 days in any other class - regardless of what's going on at home, community, SES, etc.
Another beauty in the legislation were are facing now - if you don't get enough people signed up for online health record access - huge financial penalty. I work in a small, rural, hospital and they are facing a significant fine because not enough patients want to do to this or have internet access (our patients tend to be poor and/or old) doesn't matter - Federal government (and again legislation that many of you cheered for) says a huge fine is coming. Again if you are familiar with Infinite Campus - it would be the equivalent of penalizing school districts because not enough parents were logging into Infinite Campus.
Docs get scored on a whole list of quality metrics - your patients doesn't feel like you address pain aggressively enough (i.e. give them enough opiates) you get scored badly on the survey (test) and you get financially penalized. Patient thinks the room is too noisy on the ICU and puts in in the survey - may get dinged in your reimbursments. Patients don't listen to you and continue to smoke - you can get penalized. Patient outcomes - regardless of the patient's behavior - is seen as a hospital and provider failing and there are financial penalties for this. You have a solo practice and don't need an EMR - too bad the feds think you do - penalty. etc, etc.
So even if you think this is "fair" - and since you and many of your cohorts supported it so I will assume you do- just remember the word precedent. It is not established that providers can be held financially responsible for poor outcomes of their patients - how long before some politician with an ax to grind uses this precedent on you?
Well DR, sounds like you aint liking this one bit either.
DR,,,there is already things in place against educators so............
DR,,,,,how many DR are there to teachers, is there is many DR out there?
Quote from: ramjet on January 22, 2015, 10:39:35 AM
HandlesII
What do you suggest ? (I do not want a cut and paste) what do YOU think would work better?
I just find it odd that you're fine with voucher schools that have no required testing but you want "accountability" in public schools.
I'm not against testing; but as I'm sure you know this is much more about money than kids. I wish ACT/Pearson and College Board were traded publicly.
I think much of this discussion has turned in the wrong direction. If the purpose of testing is (as it's being portrayed) to inform instruction and help students do better, why are we focusing on retributive actions against the very people whom are trying to help them do better? The real questions we need to consider are whether or not current testing protocols are actually following through on the promises being made and if the results will sufficiently benefit students. Instead of exploring what the research says about these concerns, we have gravitated to a narrative that blindly accepts retribution as justice and accountability. That errant path is also predicated upon an unfair assumption, based on political rhetoric from both parties, that teachers are inherently incompetent. Let's agree to put that aside and focus on what's educationally appropriate.
Quote from: littleguy301 on January 22, 2015, 11:08:06 AM
Quote from: DrSnide on January 22, 2015, 09:38:56 AM
Quote from: Handles II on January 22, 2015, 07:47:49 AM
Quote from: bigoil on January 21, 2015, 08:39:33 PM
Ram,
I'm not converted, fish said he agrees with testing. Even though handles indicated ALL teachers are against testing. I will take him at his word that he supports testing.
He also said there is too much testing and I'm in agreement, I have kids taking 3 MAP tests, a state test, etc in one year. My kids start to obsess with the score. Give us a benchmark each year, if necessary for the State t test every 3-4 years have at it.
He also alluded to micromanagement of learning. Changing styles every couple of years is ridiculous.
I also know that the testing takes some time out of normal instruction as well as teaching to a test clearly takes place in some curriculum.
The "we are all saying the same thing" was in reference to the teachers who post on this forum. I should have clarified.
Ramjet, I know you want accountability, teachers and schools to be punished when students don't perform to someone's expectation. Tell you what, once Doctors are punished because their patients are overweight, don't exercise, smoke, or in other ways make decisions that are against doctors orders and cause health problems (ie failing their "Test"), then I'm fine with teachers being punished too. Once dentists are fired, and dental offices are shut down because people aren't brushing and flossing per dentists recommendations and getting cavities (ie failing their "test").
You wouldn't do this because you realize that a doctor or dentist has no actual control over their patients. No matter how often they tell a patient to adjust their behaviors, no matter how much the doctor or dentist cares about the well-being and future of that patient. You are smart enough to know that their patients aren't widgets or KT numbers. Ditto teachers, and perhaps more so. We don't get paid more for working extra with the failing kids. Dentists get paid more for filling a cavity than just a check-up and cleaning. Think about that.
Take the power out of the hands of legislators on something they know nothing about, nor do they care about. This is simply an attack on public schools (which is pretty obvious since the testing is not required in private or voucher schools). Experts in education from teachers-aides on up the ladder are virtually all saying standardized testing, in it's current form, is not good for students or education in general.
Well Handles, I got some bad news for ya. You may want to start looking for your accountability pom poms.
Thanks to a recent piece of healthcare legislation you and many of your fellow educators cheered for this is exactly what is happening.
Don't pass the test and too many patient gets readmitted within 30 days for any reason - feds are going to penalize that in fact 2/3s of hospitals and providers were financially penalized for this last year. Doesn't matter that the patient was admitted for a heart attack and continued to smoke 2 packs a day and was readmitted for pneumonia - penalized. Doesn't matter that you work in an economically disadvantaged area - same standard as a new hospital in the burbs - penalized. I have admitting privileges in an inpatient Psyc unit and a inpatient AODA facility - want to guess how many readmissions they get in 30 days? My guess would be the equivalent would be financially penalizing the school and teachers if little Jonny gets a D in Math and then another D or F within 30 days in any other class - regardless of what's going on at home, community, SES, etc.
Another beauty in the legislation were are facing now - if you don't get enough people signed up for online health record access - huge financial penalty. I work in a small, rural, hospital and they are facing a significant fine because not enough patients want to do to this or have internet access (our patients tend to be poor and/or old) doesn't matter - Federal government (and again legislation that many of you cheered for) says a huge fine is coming. Again if you are familiar with Infinite Campus - it would be the equivalent of penalizing school districts because not enough parents were logging into Infinite Campus.
Docs get scored on a whole list of quality metrics - your patients doesn't feel like you address pain aggressively enough (i.e. give them enough opiates) you get scored badly on the survey (test) and you get financially penalized. Patient thinks the room is too noisy on the ICU and puts in in the survey - may get dinged in your reimbursments. Patients don't listen to you and continue to smoke - you can get penalized. Patient outcomes - regardless of the patient's behavior - is seen as a hospital and provider failing and there are financial penalties for this. You have a solo practice and don't need an EMR - too bad the feds think you do - penalty. etc, etc.
So even if you think this is "fair" - and since you and many of your cohorts supported it so I will assume you do- just remember the word precedent. It is not established that providers can be held financially responsible for poor outcomes of their patients - how long before some politician with an ax to grind uses this precedent on you?
Well DR, sounds like you aint liking this one bit either.
DR,,,there is already things in place against educators so............
DR,,,,,how many DR are there to teachers, is there is many DR out there?
and I agree with the educators on the issue, I'm just responding to the point Handles was making - have not seen where teachers are getting their pay docked for what their students do (nor should they be) like physicians. Contrary to his point, Docs are held accountable financially for the equivalent of patient "test" scores even when they have no control over how the patients behavior or their environment an more than a teacher has control over the student's family life, behavior, or environment.
As far as too many Doctors - the reverse appears to be true (and growing) there is not nearly enough which leads to all sorts of 1) shortages and 2)lack of competition which means Doctors can keep/obtain jobs easier despite often times bad behavior. I know of a few psychiatrist that should/would normally be fired but it would mean closing down who programs because there is nobody to replace them. My impression is that there is perhaps too much supply of teachers but that may be changing.
Quote from: Handles II on January 22, 2015, 10:29:15 AM
First ramjet, I'm not wrong.
I'm fine with testing. I give tests. I meet standards and work to get my kids to meet standards. I collaborate, my teaching and work is reviewed by peers and administration. I believe even standardized testing can have some value, but not in the way they are currently implemented and the "power" that gives some to judge schools, teachers, students.
Snide,
You are talking about an entirely different situation and yet one that I do not agree with. I understand that they types of penalties you are speaking of are, like punishing teachers, a very bad way to help or "fix" health care.
Let's backtrack and look at a dentist as that example. Are they punished, are dental offices shut down, if patients come in with cavities?
To be clear, I agree for the most part with your position on testing - its overreach by those who do not know the field - just as the feds are doing with healthcare. How is it an entirely different situation - in one providers and institutions are being held accountable for outcomes that are largely based on the behavior, family history, demographic factors, and environments of their patients. The opposition to testing, as I understand it, is that teachers and institutions would be accountable for student scores which are heavily influenced by student behavior, family history, demographics, and environment outside of the their control. What am I missing here? Other than there is actual monetary loss for health care providers and institutions at this point?
I have not experience with dental offices so I cant speak to that, I do know we are laying off people and many clinics are closing because of these new rules so theres that....
Quote from: DrSnide on January 22, 2015, 12:11:46 PM
Quote from: littleguy301 on January 22, 2015, 11:08:06 AM
Quote from: DrSnide on January 22, 2015, 09:38:56 AM
Quote from: Handles II on January 22, 2015, 07:47:49 AM
Quote from: bigoil on January 21, 2015, 08:39:33 PM
Ram,
I'm not converted, fish said he agrees with testing. Even though handles indicated ALL teachers are against testing. I will take him at his word that he supports testing.
He also said there is too much testing and I'm in agreement, I have kids taking 3 MAP tests, a state test, etc in one year. My kids start to obsess with the score. Give us a benchmark each year, if necessary for the State t test every 3-4 years have at it.
He also alluded to micromanagement of learning. Changing styles every couple of years is ridiculous.
I also know that the testing takes some time out of normal instruction as well as teaching to a test clearly takes place in some curriculum.
The "we are all saying the same thing" was in reference to the teachers who post on this forum. I should have clarified.
Ramjet, I know you want accountability, teachers and schools to be punished when students don't perform to someone's expectation. Tell you what, once Doctors are punished because their patients are overweight, don't exercise, smoke, or in other ways make decisions that are against doctors orders and cause health problems (ie failing their "Test"), then I'm fine with teachers being punished too. Once dentists are fired, and dental offices are shut down because people aren't brushing and flossing per dentists recommendations and getting cavities (ie failing their "test").
You wouldn't do this because you realize that a doctor or dentist has no actual control over their patients. No matter how often they tell a patient to adjust their behaviors, no matter how much the doctor or dentist cares about the well-being and future of that patient. You are smart enough to know that their patients aren't widgets or KT numbers. Ditto teachers, and perhaps more so. We don't get paid more for working extra with the failing kids. Dentists get paid more for filling a cavity than just a check-up and cleaning. Think about that.
Take the power out of the hands of legislators on something they know nothing about, nor do they care about. This is simply an attack on public schools (which is pretty obvious since the testing is not required in private or voucher schools). Experts in education from teachers-aides on up the ladder are virtually all saying standardized testing, in it's current form, is not good for students or education in general.
Well Handles, I got some bad news for ya. You may want to start looking for your accountability pom poms.
Thanks to a recent piece of healthcare legislation you and many of your fellow educators cheered for this is exactly what is happening.
Don't pass the test and too many patient gets readmitted within 30 days for any reason - feds are going to penalize that in fact 2/3s of hospitals and providers were financially penalized for this last year. Doesn't matter that the patient was admitted for a heart attack and continued to smoke 2 packs a day and was readmitted for pneumonia - penalized. Doesn't matter that you work in an economically disadvantaged area - same standard as a new hospital in the burbs - penalized. I have admitting privileges in an inpatient Psyc unit and a inpatient AODA facility - want to guess how many readmissions they get in 30 days? My guess would be the equivalent would be financially penalizing the school and teachers if little Jonny gets a D in Math and then another D or F within 30 days in any other class - regardless of what's going on at home, community, SES, etc.
Another beauty in the legislation were are facing now - if you don't get enough people signed up for online health record access - huge financial penalty. I work in a small, rural, hospital and they are facing a significant fine because not enough patients want to do to this or have internet access (our patients tend to be poor and/or old) doesn't matter - Federal government (and again legislation that many of you cheered for) says a huge fine is coming. Again if you are familiar with Infinite Campus - it would be the equivalent of penalizing school districts because not enough parents were logging into Infinite Campus.
Docs get scored on a whole list of quality metrics - your patients doesn't feel like you address pain aggressively enough (i.e. give them enough opiates) you get scored badly on the survey (test) and you get financially penalized. Patient thinks the room is too noisy on the ICU and puts in in the survey - may get dinged in your reimbursments. Patients don't listen to you and continue to smoke - you can get penalized. Patient outcomes - regardless of the patient's behavior - is seen as a hospital and provider failing and there are financial penalties for this. You have a solo practice and don't need an EMR - too bad the feds think you do - penalty. etc, etc.
So even if you think this is "fair" - and since you and many of your cohorts supported it so I will assume you do- just remember the word precedent. It is not established that providers can be held financially responsible for poor outcomes of their patients - how long before some politician with an ax to grind uses this precedent on you?
Well DR, sounds like you aint liking this one bit either.
DR,,,there is already things in place against educators so............
DR,,,,,how many DR are there to teachers, is there is many DR out there?
and I agree with the educators on the issue, I'm just responding to the point Handles was making - have not seen where teachers are getting their pay docked for what their students do (nor should they be) like physicians. Contrary to his point, Docs are held accountable financially for the equivalent of patient "test" scores even when they have no control over how the patients behavior or their environment an more than a teacher has control over the student's family life, behavior, or environment.
As far as too many Doctors - the reverse appears to be true (and growing) there is not nearly enough which leads to all sorts of 1) shortages and 2)lack of competition which means Doctors can keep/obtain jobs easier despite often times bad behavior. I know of a few psychiatrist that should/would normally be fired but it would mean closing down who programs because there is nobody to replace them. My impression is that there is perhaps too much supply of teachers but that may be changing.
I back you big-time on the doctor thing. Healthcare is becoming as big a scape-goat as education. Politically manipulated to be a disaster; so the people who caused it get no blame, and the victims of it can get more blame.
I live in a place that already has a tough time keeping doctors. Now the revolving door will just go faster.
There are more teachers than jobs; but that tide always turns every few decades. This year might be my second graduating class with not one teacher.
TMI. ;)
We should take the money we spend on the WKCE and put it towards whatever new testing we're going to be doing. But if we're going to keep switching things up, year after year, we will be wasting tax money, and much instruction time. You can't believe what the new tests are costing in missed instruction time. We already blow quite a bit instruction time on these current low validity/reliability tests. Keep changing and the $ amount will pale compared to the teacher/student time lost.
They call us boneheads DACs (District Assessment Coordinators) and we have to set up the kids, the test, etc. I've spent much time on all these idiosyncrasies among tests. Time I could spend getting kids into colleges and getting scholarships, etc.
I guess you can tell which parts of my job I like and the parts...well, not as much.
Quote from: bigG on January 22, 2015, 11:23:49 AM
Quote from: ramjet on January 22, 2015, 10:39:35 AM
HandlesII
What do you suggest ? (I do not want a cut and paste) what do YOU think would work better?
I just find it odd that you're fine with voucher schools that have no required testing but you want "accountability" in public schools.
I'm not against testing; but as I'm sure you know this is much more about money than kids. I wish ACT/Pearson and College Board were traded publicly.
A you are 100% wrong I have
never ever posted or said I am OK with Voucher Schools receiving public money not being held to the same standards and requirements as any Public School. So please stop making things up about me it's not very nice or is it any way shape or form accurate. Accountability if they receive public funding should be the same as any Public school. If they do not receive public funds then the accountability lies with those who pay the tuition and for the life of me I have no earthly idea what anyone would send their children to school that is not accountable or that does not have standards or meet the minimum standard.
Quote from: imnofish on January 22, 2015, 11:24:36 AM
I think much of this discussion has turned in the wrong direction. If the purpose of testing is (as it's being portrayed) to inform instruction and help students do better, why are we focusing on retributive actions against the very people whom are trying to help them do better? The real questions we need to consider are whether or not current testing protocols are actually following through on the promises being made and if the results will sufficiently benefit students. Instead of exploring what the research says about these concerns, we have gravitated to a narrative that blindly accepts retribution as justice and accountability. That errant path is also predicated upon an unfair assumption, based on political rhetoric from both parties, that teachers are inherently incompetent. Let's agree to put that aside and focus on what's educationally appropriate.
I think only those who have something to hide should feel like they are being punished so that said I think this is weak and common place attitude from the "old gaurd Union mentality". Being held accountable and having the tools provided to recognize areas of need and intervene to help kids should not be looked upon as a punishment. I do not know of one Teacher who was fired as result of test score NOT ONE. Low test scores does NOT equal termination that in its self would be not only unjust but maybe boarder on unlawful. But you Fish are guilty of coming across that Teachers will be judged on this alone and only on test scores and you know better than that and that is not the case as you seem to want me to believe.
Quote from: ramjet on January 22, 2015, 03:07:55 PM
Quote from: bigG on January 22, 2015, 11:23:49 AM
Quote from: ramjet on January 22, 2015, 10:39:35 AM
HandlesII
What do you suggest ? (I do not want a cut and paste) what do YOU think would work better?
I just find it odd that you're fine with voucher schools that have no required testing but you want "accountability" in public schools.
I'm not against testing; but as I'm sure you know this is much more about money than kids. I wish ACT/Pearson and College Board were traded publicly.
A you are 100% wrong I have never ever posted or said I am OK with Voucher Schools receiving public money not being held to the same standards and requirements as any Public School. So please stop making things up about me it's not very nice or is it any way shape or form accurate. Accountability if they receive public funding should be the same as any Public school. If they do not receive public funds then the accountability lies with those who pay the tuition and for the life of me I have no earthly idea what anyone would send their children to school that is not accountable or that does not have standards or meet the minimum standard.
So, we agree. :)
Quote from: ramjet on January 22, 2015, 03:18:07 PM
Quote from: imnofish on January 22, 2015, 11:24:36 AM
I think much of this discussion has turned in the wrong direction. If the purpose of testing is (as it's being portrayed) to inform instruction and help students do better, why are we focusing on retributive actions against the very people whom are trying to help them do better? The real questions we need to consider are whether or not current testing protocols are actually following through on the promises being made and if the results will sufficiently benefit students. Instead of exploring what the research says about these concerns, we have gravitated to a narrative that blindly accepts retribution as justice and accountability. That errant path is also predicated upon an unfair assumption, based on political rhetoric from both parties, that teachers are inherently incompetent. Let's agree to put that aside and focus on what's educationally appropriate.
I think only those who have something to hide should feel like they are being punished so that said I think this is weak and common place attitude from the "old gaurd Union mentality". Being held accountable and having the tools provided to recognize areas of need and intervene to help kids should not be looked upon as a punishment. I do not know of one Teacher who was fired as result of test score NOT ONE. Low test scores does NOT equal termination that in its self would be not only unjust but maybe boarder on unlawful. But you Fish are guilty of coming across that Teachers will be judged on this alone and only on test scores and you know better than that and that is not the case as you seem to want me to believe.
You make a good point. I know I use the results much more than I may have 5 years ago. I use practice ACT results to feedback teachers so they know where the kids are lacking. The big advantage to this testing thing is more data points; and statistically, that's good. There's value to testing; but that value has to be considered/balanced with the cost.
I should also mention the assessments, along with grades, attendance, extra-curr. activities, etc. make useful data sets. Our EWS doc. is an incredibly efficient way to flag kids early for this or that help. I want fair warning of challenges and accomplishments. I see a kid who doesn't like the classroom experience so much as the shop experience, we gotta get the tuff stuff (Chem., Bio, Alg. etc.) out of the way to allow for much time in our pristine shop, in that case. We also have the kids that are great at school the whole way around. A+, doesn't matter what class: AP Physics or PE. Man, these kids take good care of our shop. Other times you see that science girl and , over time, gently let her know that STEM women get some financial bennies. Nice to have a sense of "intelligence" direction. by that I mean multiple intelligence direction. Match talent with love, and think of worse case scenarios, along with great prospects, you hope they find the career that makes them happy.
My colleague made this great Excel Spread that has muchos variables and can isolate them. Testing isn't useless; but I'm miserly with my money. I pay taxes, too. I'd just like some figures before I get too mad/thrilled. But, we do have some good data points and can focus a little more on silent feedback. March 3. If you know a Junior, they'll probably be nervous. Also a great opportunity for many. Let's look at the numbers. Prepare to look bad, but also to improve. You just worry about too much test prep and more testing. You hate to prepare just for the interview, but not the real job.
Quote from: ramjet on January 22, 2015, 03:18:07 PM
Quote from: imnofish on January 22, 2015, 11:24:36 AM
I think much of this discussion has turned in the wrong direction. If the purpose of testing is (as it's being portrayed) to inform instruction and help students do better, why are we focusing on retributive actions against the very people whom are trying to help them do better? The real questions we need to consider are whether or not current testing protocols are actually following through on the promises being made and if the results will sufficiently benefit students. Instead of exploring what the research says about these concerns, we have gravitated to a narrative that blindly accepts retribution as justice and accountability. That errant path is also predicated upon an unfair assumption, based on political rhetoric from both parties, that teachers are inherently incompetent. Let's agree to put that aside and focus on what's educationally appropriate.
I think only those who have something to hide should feel like they are being punished so that said I think this is weak and common place attitude from the "old gaurd Union mentality". Being held accountable and having the tools provided to recognize areas of need and intervene to help kids should not be looked upon as a punishment. I do not know of one Teacher who was fired as result of test score NOT ONE. Low test scores does NOT equal termination that in its self would be not only unjust but maybe boarder on unlawful. But you Fish are guilty of coming across that Teachers will be judged on this alone and only on test scores and you know better than that and that is not the case as you seem to want me to believe.
Ram,,,maybe with you about judging but if these test continue and the schools get more of them, it may become the only way for certain people to judge if a teacher is doing their jobs.
While I support some testing because I do want to see a result, there is also much more that goes into that test than most people realize or want to look into.
I have heard from uneducated parents that if there child tests are low it is ALL the teachers fault because so and so does well with me at home or did good with a teacher a few years back. Like I have said before, kids change and the enviorment they work in also changes. Pre-teen kids dont adapt as well to a changing envoirment as an adult would.
I think many fight those tests because many believe that all these tests take away actual learning time. I have heard it and being in and around schools you also see it.
Just like wrestling, you need drill time more than you need match time. No school would schedule meets 4 nights a week and on the weekend and have 1 practice.
also, my I see my sons test scores on the blah-blah and then on the next blah-blah and he is going to be taking the next blah-blah and that will lead into the 4th blah-blah test for the state or who ever. I dont need my son to go through 4-5 outside tests a year to know where he is lacking or achieving I can see it on his daily work and week grades. That is enough for me because I have become so numb to these tests that I really dont care about them, I take the results and average it out over the 4 and look at his daily and week work and see he is right on track with all.
Quote from: ramjet on January 22, 2015, 03:18:07 PM
Quote from: imnofish on January 22, 2015, 11:24:36 AM
I think much of this discussion has turned in the wrong direction. If the purpose of testing is (as it's being portrayed) to inform instruction and help students do better, why are we focusing on retributive actions against the very people whom are trying to help them do better? The real questions we need to consider are whether or not current testing protocols are actually following through on the promises being made and if the results will sufficiently benefit students. Instead of exploring what the research says about these concerns, we have gravitated to a narrative that blindly accepts retribution as justice and accountability. That errant path is also predicated upon an unfair assumption, based on political rhetoric from both parties, that teachers are inherently incompetent. Let's agree to put that aside and focus on what's educationally appropriate.
I think only those who have something to hide should feel like they are being punished so that said I think this is weak and common place attitude from the "old gaurd Union mentality". Being held accountable and having the tools provided to recognize areas of need and intervene to help kids should not be looked upon as a punishment. I do not know of one Teacher who was fired as result of test score NOT ONE. Low test scores does NOT equal termination that in its self would be not only unjust but maybe boarder on unlawful. But you Fish are guilty of coming across that Teachers will be judged on this alone and only on test scores and you know better than that and that is not the case as you seem to want me to believe.
Sorry if you got that impression, as that was not my intent. My point is that we can probably make a lot more sense of this issue without casting aspersions on those trying to make it work for their students. Name calling and generalized assumptions directed at those people are unnecessary and irrelevant.
G we may have always agreed on that one point.
Fish I do not see casting aspersions on a teachers over standardized testing. I see the use as dis ribbed several times good reference data to improve.
LG we are pretty close on this.
I think it is so sad they so much weight is put on things like the ACT
I mean a standardized test that takes a couple hours could determine the next 50 years of your life?
Do great... oh boy your going to Harvard, do poor... good luck at McDonalds
Truth is not everyone is a great test taker, some struggle with written tests, everyone thinks differently, processes info different, interprets things different. Some are not good at memorizing answers for a test. I use to memorize info... if you have tested me a year later on the same test without me memorizing again I'm sure I would have done poorly.
ACT doesn't determine your level of intelligence or what your able to accomplish in life but don't tell that to the college admissions board.
Wow Jags sounds like you have an axe to grind.
Not the only criteria to be considered.
http://educationopportunitynetwork.org/democrats-should-listen-to-what-senator-whitehouse-said-about-education-policy/
Ignore the title; not wanting to make this a political thing, because this issue is definitely a bipartisan failure. Please read the entire article, as there are various nuggets that you might find enlightening and relevant to the topic at hand.
Quote from: imnofish on January 23, 2015, 12:36:52 PM
http://educationopportunitynetwork.org/democrats-should-listen-to-what-senator-whitehouse-said-about-education-policy/
Ignore the title; not wanting to make this a political thing, because this issue is definitely a bipartisan failure. Please read the entire article, as there are various nuggets that you might find enlightening and relevant to the topic at hand.
I am not trying to be a jerk here but frankly I will not even read it as the review of the first few sentences make it a very one sided view. Not trying offend you but I do not mind debating talking or discussing and like to here people's own take not that of which is written by someone else.
My interest is how you feel about the topics at hand then the political stuff is to some extent a non-issue.
There is so much food for thought in the article that has nothing to do with politics. Yes, the author does initially jab the Dems, but the main points about testing-related issues are why I posted the article. Like I said, neither party is without blame, so politics is not what I'm pushing, here. I'm not offended if you don't read it. Each of us makes our own choices.
Well in the end it's nice to have discussion and understand each of our perspectives.
Quote from: ramjet on January 25, 2015, 08:47:03 AM
Well in the end it's nice to have discussion and understand each of our perspectives.
+1