What's going on with US Greco team?

[bulldog]

Great points bman...

I loved watching our American Greco wrestlers compete the past two days. Wish they would have had a few more matches but I agree with bman...we (the U.S. wrestlers) focus on Greco/Freestyle for a couple months. Think about it...we get GR/FR going about April (maybe the 3rd week of March) and then throw the wrestlers in the state tournament by the 1st weekend of May. Then we give them another 2.5 months to get ready for the largest GR/FR tournament in the country. During that time training consists of a couple days a week.

I don't have a fix for it but I understand why so many U.S. wrestlers struggle with the greco/freestyle aspect of the sport. We have good training in WI at the cadet and junior level but maybe the length of the training is what causes problems on the national/international level.

[Barou]

I am going to condense my comments into one post that includes several replies.

"Why are they giving up the gut so easily?"
--If you mean why are Americans so easy to gut etc.? It is because our wrestlers are always years behind the rest of the world in learning how to defend from par terre.  Americans dabble in Greco for at most, about 5 months a year until they are college age.  Also, we often lose top Greco guys to college programs who go on to later compete in freestyle at the senior level.  The foreign wrestlers start with greco or Freestyle at around age 12, and they only do one style (with few exceptions).  Many countries only do Greco.  As far as foreign wrestlers getting turned, if a guy gets his lock, and it is tight, it is very hard for anyone to defend, period.    

"It's almost 'luck of the draw' sometimes as to who will get a passivity call first."
-- I agree.  Refs are human and whether they are conscious of it or not, the refs can be very subjective or just flat out screw some guys.

"One match a day, maybe two with hours in between."
-- The USA would win even fewer medals this way.  Please see answer above regarding our dabbling in Greco (and for that matter freestyle through our teens and beyond).  One way Americans have neutralized our delay in specializing in Greco or Freestyle and have won international matches against more talented wrestlers is to wear our opponents down, and exhaust them.  The fatigue inflicted can come directly from one match or build up throughout the grind of several matches in a few hours.  Watch Cary Kolat against the Iranian (Kolat got screwed, but he exhausts him).  Dennis Hall wasn't winning 3 World Level Medals by having better technique or more experience. He did it by beating on guys and wearing them out and breaking them mentally and physically.  Both Brands (and Gable) were the same way.  Constant pressure, constantly heavy, constantly attacking.  Giving wrestlers more time between matches actually takes an advantage away from the Americans.  Bisek beat Vlasov two years ago at the Worlds because Bisek wore him out to the point of exhaustion.  If foreign wrestlers have a longer recovery time or even a day between matches, they are going to be even harder to beat.

"Also having the wrestler make weight more than once and on consecutive days would be a good thing as well."
-- Good for whom?  The international wrestler that doesn't cut weight?  Who might that be?  An exception may be Provisor.  After moving up a weight class Provisor has had no trouble making weight, but very few others would want to weigh in on consecutive days, and few would see it as an advantage.

"I might be in the minority but I also think that there should be a team event as well."  Another person posted something very similar. "Perhaps changing wrestling in the Olympics to a dual format would be the way to go."
-- The IOC has already cut weight classes because they don't want any more matches and events in the Olympics, and besides, that is what the World Cup is for. Also, what if you are a total stud, but the rest of your nation doesn't have any real medal contenders?  That individual wouldn't be competing because their team would not qualify.  Madsen from Denmark is a total stud.  He has been in the World Finals 5 times or more and he got the silver yesterday.  Denmark isn't ever qualifying for a team event, and so Mr. Madsen would not have wrestled in the Olympics (nor would 2014 World Champion, Peter Bacsi from Hungary, or the Guenot brothers from France who were Gold and Bronze Medalists).  

One thing I do agree with is the repechage only being for those that lost to a finalist.  Have a true backside of the bracket.  The tournament goes so quick as it is anyway.  Adding those matches won't delay the time elapsed until Bronze and Gold Medal matches occur, since they have that long break in between them. I know the IOC wants to limit the number of matches, but I think this argument for change could actually be made.  Not so long ago they had pools, but they went to line bracketing and that is how they have decided to do it for now.  

Excellent post but I'm going to add one thing.  Overseas wrestlers start much earlier than 12 years old.  In Russia we saw wrestlers as young as 4 begin their training.  It wasn't playing games and doing gymnastics.   Wrestlers as young as 11 (if they show promise) are invited to Moscow to an all boys school who trains in wrestling full time.  In Belgium they say that their goal is to get their youth to join wrestling before they are introduced to other sports around the age of 5 - 6.  

In every country I've visited for youth wrestling (9 so far), their youth start Freestyle & Greco around 5 - 6 years old.  The only exception was speaking to a coach from the United Kingdom who said that in their country on the youth level it's virtually all Freestyle and not introduced to Greco until they are older.  

Training overseas is year around 2 - 3 days a week, however in Israel youth wrestle 6 days a week.  Some of my sons friends from Sweden & Finland say they train anywhere from 5 - 10 times a week (wrestling or workouts).  Generally by 12 years old they've already focusing on one style.  Rarely have I seen wrestlers who train in both styles.  Most clubs teach only one style.  In Hungary their wrestling federation forces the kids to train in Freestyle a few months out of the year and I'm told most of the kids hate it--they rather do Greco.  In Estonia I was told by one coach that "Men do Greco and the boys that were not good enough to get on the national Greco team switch to Freestyle."  Some countries only focus on Greco such as the Netherlands.  One Swedish wrestler told me in his country "Boys do Greco, girls do Freestyle."  

In Slovakia, clubs are partly financed by the government.  The better your wrestlers (including their youth) place at international events dictates how much money their club receives from the government.

From my experience, overseas they start younger, are one sport athletes and are one style wrestlers from a young age.  There is no such thing as high school or college wrestling overseas.  While our wrestlers have goals of being a state champ or national champ or wrestling in college, their wrestlers have bigger goals from a younger age.  Although there is several tournaments they train for and have goals of winning, overseas the wrestler's main goal is representing their country in international competition and that's encouraged and emphasized at a much younger age than here in the US.

Thanks for sharing, great perspectives.  Very contradicting to some of our folks that try to sell the "less is better" to prevent "burn out" philosophy.  After reading this kind of makes me think that the "burn out" theory is very American.

[1Iota]

Here is the opinion of Vladimir Anoshenko.  He was a member of the Belarussian National Team & is now coaching in the US.  He has spoken & written extensively about the differences he sees between Wrestling in Russia & the US.  The following is from one of his blogs. 

2010 was again a successful year for Russian wrestlers. They dominated in all big international competitions. Many people in the international wrestling community (particularly in the U.S.) are trying to figure out the success of the Russian Wrestling System. My opinion of why Russia dominates is that the system is built on deep wrestling traditions with tremendous financial and political support.

Here is a comparison of the Russian Wrestling System to the U.S. The Russian Wrestling System is built to develop World and Olympic champions. This is what kids want to be when they start wrestling. In Russia, most kids start at age 10-12 yrs. and have 2-4 tournaments per year. Kids do not usually cut weight. At cadette and junior age (14-16), athletes wrestle 4-8 tournaments per year and cut on average 4-8 lbs. a couple times per year. The majority of wrestlers do not burn out mentally or wear out physically when they reach senior level. In Russia, the average wrestling practices runs for 1 & 1/2 hrs. At the kids level, the system focuses to develop wrestling skills (flexibility, agility, coordination, etc.) and basic technique. Most of the practice time is spent playing and drilling. Live wrestling runs for about 5-10 min. per practice. At cadette and junior level, athletes develop more complicated technique and spend a lot of time in different wrestling situations and positions. They still do not spend a lot of time live wrestling. At the senior level, wrestlers polish their technique and tactic and focus on physical conditions. At all age levels, practices are short but high intensity.

In the U.S., a kid's goal is to be a State champion. They start wrestling at age 5-7 yrs. and wrestling 10-15 tournaments per 4-6 months season. At age 10-13, almost all wrestlers in U.S. cut weight. I saw a 12 yr. old who cut 14 lbs. for a State tournament to wrestle in the 74 lb. category!! Also, I saw a 15 yr. old who cut 20 lbs. to wrestle at Nationals in the 95 lb. category. Parents of both wrestlers encouraged and pushed their sons to do this!! In the U.S., at all ages, wrestling practice focuses to build condition. The duration of practice is usually 2 hr. or more and live wrestling is a big part of the practice. Kids are bored and lazy to learn technique. Parents and coaches are not patient and want immediate results. By college age, half of wrestlers burn out. Only a small percentage still want to wrestle after college.

In Russia, big bonuses and incentives are good motivation to wrestle. Usually all of the best wrestlers are provided with career opportunities by government or businesses. While athletes wrestle or they finish their sport career they know they will have a good job. This is very important for the Russian Wrestling System.

In U.S., wrestlers don't have opportunities like this. Only a few can afford to wrestle 10-15 yrs. at the senior level. The U.S. can beat Russia in wrestling some years. But to dominate the World constantly, the U.S. has to create a wrestling system that is better or at least competitive to the Russian Wrestling System.

[Ivan Stankowski]

Here is the opinion of Vladimir Anoshenko.  He was a member of the Belarussian National Team & is now coaching in the US.  He has spoken & written extensively about the differences he sees between Wrestling in Russia & the US.  The following is from one of his blogs. 

2010 was again a successful year for Russian wrestlers. They dominated in all big international competitions. Many people in the international wrestling community (particularly in the U.S.) are trying to figure out the success of the Russian Wrestling System. My opinion of why Russia dominates is that the system is built on deep wrestling traditions with tremendous financial and political support.

Here is a comparison of the Russian Wrestling System to the U.S. The Russian Wrestling System is built to develop World and Olympic champions. This is what kids want to be when they start wrestling. In Russia, most kids start at age 10-12 yrs. and have 2-4 tournaments per year. Kids do not usually cut weight. At cadette and junior age (14-16), athletes wrestle 4-8 tournaments per year and cut on average 4-8 lbs. a couple times per year. The majority of wrestlers do not burn out mentally or wear out physically when they reach senior level. In Russia, the average wrestling practices runs for 1 & 1/2 hrs. At the kids level, the system focuses to develop wrestling skills (flexibility, agility, coordination, etc.) and basic technique. Most of the practice time is spent playing and drilling. Live wrestling runs for about 5-10 min. per practice. At cadette and junior level, athletes develop more complicated technique and spend a lot of time in different wrestling situations and positions. They still do not spend a lot of time live wrestling. At the senior level, wrestlers polish their technique and tactic and focus on physical conditions. At all age levels, practices are short but high intensity.

In the U.S., a kid's goal is to be a State champion. They start wrestling at age 5-7 yrs. and wrestling 10-15 tournaments per 4-6 months season. At age 10-13, almost all wrestlers in U.S. cut weight. I saw a 12 yr. old who cut 14 lbs. for a State tournament to wrestle in the 74 lb. category!! Also, I saw a 15 yr. old who cut 20 lbs. to wrestle at Nationals in the 95 lb. category. Parents of both wrestlers encouraged and pushed their sons to do this!! In the U.S., at all ages, wrestling practice focuses to build condition. The duration of practice is usually 2 hr. or more and live wrestling is a big part of the practice. Kids are bored and lazy to learn technique. Parents and coaches are not patient and want immediate results. By college age, half of wrestlers burn out. Only a small percentage still want to wrestle after college.

In Russia, big bonuses and incentives are good motivation to wrestle. Usually all of the best wrestlers are provided with career opportunities by government or businesses. While athletes wrestle or they finish their sport career they know they will have a good job. This is very important for the Russian Wrestling System.

In U.S., wrestlers don't have opportunities like this. Only a few can afford to wrestle 10-15 yrs. at the senior level. The U.S. can beat Russia in wrestling some years. But to dominate the World constantly, the U.S. has to create a wrestling system that is better or at least competitive to the Russian Wrestling System.

I think that he also forgot to mention 1 other large factor, Roids!!!! Not an opinion fact.

[knowgangs]

Here is the opinion of Vladimir Anoshenko.  He was a member of the Belarussian National Team & is now coaching in the US.  He has spoken & written extensively about the differences he sees between Wrestling in Russia & the US.  The following is from one of his blogs.  

2010 was again a successful year for Russian wrestlers. They dominated in all big international competitions. Many people in the international wrestling community (particularly in the U.S.) are trying to figure out the success of the Russian Wrestling System. My opinion of why Russia dominates is that the system is built on deep wrestling traditions with tremendous financial and political support.

Here is a comparison of the Russian Wrestling System to the U.S. The Russian Wrestling System is built to develop World and Olympic champions. This is what kids want to be when they start wrestling. In Russia, most kids start at age 10-12 yrs. and have 2-4 tournaments per year. Kids do not usually cut weight. At cadette and junior age (14-16), athletes wrestle 4-8 tournaments per year and cut on average 4-8 lbs. a couple times per year. The majority of wrestlers do not burn out mentally or wear out physically when they reach senior level. In Russia, the average wrestling practices runs for 1 & 1/2 hrs. At the kids level, the system focuses to develop wrestling skills (flexibility, agility, coordination, etc.) and basic technique. Most of the practice time is spent playing and drilling. Live wrestling runs for about 5-10 min. per practice. At cadette and junior level, athletes develop more complicated technique and spend a lot of time in different wrestling situations and positions. They still do not spend a lot of time live wrestling. At the senior level, wrestlers polish their technique and tactic and focus on physical conditions. At all age levels, practices are short but high intensity.

In the U.S., a kid's goal is to be a State champion. They start wrestling at age 5-7 yrs. and wrestling 10-15 tournaments per 4-6 months season. At age 10-13, almost all wrestlers in U.S. cut weight. I saw a 12 yr. old who cut 14 lbs. for a State tournament to wrestle in the 74 lb. category!! Also, I saw a 15 yr. old who cut 20 lbs. to wrestle at Nationals in the 95 lb. category. Parents of both wrestlers encouraged and pushed their sons to do this!! In the U.S., at all ages, wrestling practice focuses to build condition. The duration of practice is usually 2 hr. or more and live wrestling is a big part of the practice. Kids are bored and lazy to learn technique. Parents and coaches are not patient and want immediate results. By college age, half of wrestlers burn out. Only a small percentage still want to wrestle after college.

In Russia, big bonuses and incentives are good motivation to wrestle. Usually all of the best wrestlers are provided with career opportunities by government or businesses. While athletes wrestle or they finish their sport career they know they will have a good job. This is very important for the Russian Wrestling System.

In U.S., wrestlers don't have opportunities like this. Only a few can afford to wrestle 10-15 yrs. at the senior level. The U.S. can beat Russia in wrestling some years. But to dominate the World constantly, the U.S. has to create a wrestling system that is better or at least competitive to the Russian Wrestling System.

I too used to believe this same thing (regarding the age they start, cutting weight and burn out).  When we took our first trip to Poland this is what I expected.  I too read this post before going and this is what I expected and looked for.  Even on our last trip to Moscow a few months ago, I too was assuming this is what I would see--and I was wrong.  I found his perspective on some of the youth aspects different than what I have observed.  Anyone who has traveled with me overseas has found that overseas wrestlers at a young age cut weight...some of them excessive like some do here.  In the Netherlands I remember them putting the young wrestlers (some as young as eight) under the wrestling tarp (mats are velcroed to foam mats) and had them huddling under there to lose weight.  When one of them tried to get out because he was having trouble breathing, the coach walked over and smacked him (making him cry) and made him go back where he had to stay until would sweat more to make weight.  At several overseas tournaments and in Moscow I saw young wrestlers running with layers and layers of clothing on to make weight before tournaments.  I honestly think I've seen more Russian kids running to make weight then most other countries at tournaments.  Saunas are widely used by young wrestlers to make weight.  Anyone who has been overseas and seen how coaches will smack or manhandle their youth wrestlers if they lose a match will agree there is huge differences between the relationship of a coach here vs. there.

One major difference I noticed is there the majority of kids as young as 12-years-old already have cauliflower ear, especially the Russian kids.

The idea that wrestlers overseas only compete in 2 - 4 events each year is not accurate as well.  Many of our youth got to compete and train with members of Russia's YOUTH national team.  The higher level wrestlers there compete in the same amount of big tournaments as our higher level wrestlers here.

I just asked my son from his memory what age they started overseas and he said every club he saw was around 5 yrs.  

I asked him about the different practice styles and he did remind me of some differences.  (This is according to my 15 year old):  Overseas practices are very similar in the way they teach however here most practices are 2 hours, overseas most are 1 1/2.  We have 1 water break in the 2 hour practice, their wrestlers randomly leave the mat to get drinks, use the bathroom or take a rest.  We do a ton more live wrestling here, where overseas they do not do as much live wrestling in practices.  He also said conditioning overseas during practice is rare.  He said overseas the warm up is a lot longer and they do incorporate a lot more gymnastic movements in the warm ups then we do.  He also said there is no difference between the fun activities (games) incorporated in practice here as there.  From my perspective I noticed a lot more games incorporated in the warm up over there than we do here.

On a side note...if you are following this thread then I assume you love Freestyle/Greco.  If you have a wrestler who might be interested:  In early April 2017 I'm taking a group of 30 (20 wrestlers) to Finland and Estonia.  In Finland your wrestler will be training with Finland's national Cadet Freestyle & Greco teams as well as several Finland national champs from all ages.  From there we will be traveling to Tallinn, Estonia to participate in the largest Freestyle / Greco tournament in Europe (2000 wrestlers/ 24 countries).  After the tournament we'll be training in Estonia with wrestlers from Russia, France and several Baltic countries.  If you'd like additional information please send me a PM.  

[pin always]

I have never been to a foreign country to watch wrestling, and I don't follow international wrestling that much, but don't you guys think if the United States regarded their gold medal wrestlers more like American heros, like most of these other countries do, and like the US does with the gymnastics, track & field & swimming, that we would have more kids wanting to be Olympic gold medal contenders?
I'm guessing that wrestling is also an outlet for most kids in these countries where otherwise they would have to work in some dirty mill or mine for the rest of their lives.
In the US, most kids that need to get out of a bad situation go out for football or basketball because they can possibly make big $$ in the pros.
Just my observation.

[MNbadger]

I am going to condense my comments into one post that includes several replies.

"Why are they giving up the gut so easily?"
--If you mean why are Americans so easy to gut etc.? It is because our wrestlers are always years behind the rest of the world in learning how to defend from par terre.  Americans dabble in Greco for at most, about 5 months a year until they are college age.  Also, we often lose top Greco guys to college programs who go on to later compete in freestyle at the senior level.  The foreign wrestlers start with greco or Freestyle at around age 12, and they only do one style (with few exceptions).  Many countries only do Greco.  As far as foreign wrestlers getting turned, if a guy gets his lock, and it is tight, it is very hard for anyone to defend, period.    

"It's almost 'luck of the draw' sometimes as to who will get a passivity call first."
-- I agree.  Refs are human and whether they are conscious of it or not, the refs can be very subjective or just flat out screw some guys.

"One match a day, maybe two with hours in between."
-- The USA would win even fewer medals this way.  Please see answer above regarding our dabbling in Greco (and for that matter freestyle through our teens and beyond).  One way Americans have neutralized our delay in specializing in Greco or Freestyle and have won international matches against more talented wrestlers is to wear our opponents down, and exhaust them.  The fatigue inflicted can come directly from one match or build up throughout the grind of several matches in a few hours.  Watch Cary Kolat against the Iranian (Kolat got screwed, but he exhausts him).  Dennis Hall wasn't winning 3 World Level Medals by having better technique or more experience. He did it by beating on guys and wearing them out and breaking them mentally and physically.  Both Brands (and Gable) were the same way.  Constant pressure, constantly heavy, constantly attacking.  Giving wrestlers more time between matches actually takes an advantage away from the Americans.  Bisek beat Vlasov two years ago at the Worlds because Bisek wore him out to the point of exhaustion.  If foreign wrestlers have a longer recovery time or even a day between matches, they are going to be even harder to beat.

"Also having the wrestler make weight more than once and on consecutive days would be a good thing as well."
-- Good for whom?  The international wrestler that doesn't cut weight?  Who might that be?  An exception may be Provisor.  After moving up a weight class Provisor has had no trouble making weight, but very few others would want to weigh in on consecutive days, and few would see it as an advantage.

"I might be in the minority but I also think that there should be a team event as well."  Another person posted something very similar. "Perhaps changing wrestling in the Olympics to a dual format would be the way to go."
-- The IOC has already cut weight classes because they don't want any more matches and events in the Olympics, and besides, that is what the World Cup is for. Also, what if you are a total stud, but the rest of your nation doesn't have any real medal contenders?  That individual wouldn't be competing because their team would not qualify.  Madsen from Denmark is a total stud.  He has been in the World Finals 5 times or more and he got the silver yesterday.  Denmark isn't ever qualifying for a team event, and so Mr. Madsen would not have wrestled in the Olympics (nor would 2014 World Champion, Peter Bacsi from Hungary, or the Guenot brothers from France who were Gold and Bronze Medalists).  

One thing I do agree with is the repechage only being for those that lost to a finalist.  Have a true backside of the bracket.  The tournament goes so quick as it is anyway.  Adding those matches won't delay the time elapsed until Bronze and Gold Medal matches occur, since they have that long break in between them. I know the IOC wants to limit the number of matches, but I think this argument for change could actually be made.  Not so long ago they had pools, but they went to line bracketing and that is how they have decided to do it for now.  

Excellent post but I'm going to add one thing.  Overseas wrestlers start much earlier than 12 years old.  In Russia we saw wrestlers as young as 4 begin their training.  It wasn't playing games and doing gymnastics.   Wrestlers as young as 11 (if they show promise) are invited to Moscow to an all boys school who trains in wrestling full time.  In Belgium they say that their goal is to get their youth to join wrestling before they are introduced to other sports around the age of 5 - 6.  

In every country I've visited for youth wrestling (9 so far), their youth start Freestyle & Greco around 5 - 6 years old.  The only exception was speaking to a coach from the United Kingdom who said that in their country on the youth level it's virtually all Freestyle and not introduced to Greco until they are older.  

Training overseas is year around 2 - 3 days a week, however in Israel youth wrestle 6 days a week.  Some of my sons friends from Sweden & Finland say they train anywhere from 5 - 10 times a week (wrestling or workouts).  Generally by 12 years old they've already focusing on one style.  Rarely have I seen wrestlers who train in both styles.  Most clubs teach only one style.  In Hungary their wrestling federation forces the kids to train in Freestyle a few months out of the year and I'm told most of the kids hate it--they rather do Greco.  In Estonia I was told by one coach that "Men do Greco and the boys that were not good enough to get on the national Greco team switch to Freestyle."  Some countries only focus on Greco such as the Netherlands.  One Swedish wrestler told me in his country "Boys do Greco, girls do Freestyle."  

In Slovakia, clubs are partly financed by the government.  The better your wrestlers (including their youth) place at international events dictates how much money their club receives from the government.

From my experience, overseas they start younger, are one sport athletes and are one style wrestlers from a young age.  There is no such thing as high school or college wrestling overseas.  While our wrestlers have goals of being a state champ or national champ or wrestling in college, their wrestlers have bigger goals from a younger age.  Although there is several tournaments they train for and have goals of winning, overseas the wrestler's main goal is representing their country in international competition and that's encouraged and emphasized at a much younger age than here in the US.

Thanks for sharing, great perspectives.  Very contradicting to some of our folks that try to sell the "less is better" to prevent "burn out" philosophy.  After reading this kind of makes me think that the "burn out" theory is very American.

I have never bought into the "burn out" theory.  I someone "burns out" in a sport, the sport is not for them.  The best don't seem to bun out and spend tons of time at their sport.

[DocWrestling]

There would not be much scoring in greco without the forced par terre so it will be interesting what they do with it.

So there is no team aspect in international wrestling at any level/style.  It is all about the individuals?

It sounds like there system is better for developing individuals but maybe we the US has more kids participating?

I get the impression that the run their wrestling like we do our gymnastics.  If you are quite good at the ages of 8-10, then you move to a training center. 

I would bet we would do better if the top kids all moved to Colorado Springs or something at age 10 and focused on one style and were home schooled.  Just not sure that makes much sense in the big picture for a sport that gets no support.  The olympic gymnasts become millionaires.  Olympic wrestlers would have sacrificed many childhood experiences for a medal chance and then moved on with no money or support.

In my mind our system is better with high school and college wrestling as kids continue to get an education and prepare for rest of life at the same time.

[knowgangs]

There would not be much scoring in greco without the forced par terre so it will be interesting what they do with it.

So there is no team aspect in international wrestling at any level/style.  It is all about the individuals?

It sounds like there system is better for developing individuals but maybe we the US has more kids participating?

I get the impression that the run their wrestling like we do our gymnastics.  If you are quite good at the ages of 8-10, then you move to a training center. 

I would bet we would do better if the top kids all moved to Colorado Springs or something at age 10 and focused on one style and were home schooled.  Just not sure that makes much sense in the big picture for a sport that gets no support.  The olympic gymnasts become millionaires.  Olympic wrestlers would have sacrificed many childhood experiences for a medal chance and then moved on with no money or support.

In my mind our system is better with high school and college wrestling as kids continue to get an education and prepare for rest of life at the same time.

On the youth level (18 years and under) from my experience there is organized duals between other clubs and countries, but unless you become a part of your country's national team (they have them for all age groups) then there is little team competition.

Practices are much like gymnastics and done year round.  Most of the clubs we've visited are neighborhood clubs with many years of tradition and support from their local community.  I've seen several that have bars as part of the club.  Parents and locals hang out in the bar while their wrestlers practice.  One of the most interesting things I've noticed is grown men join wrestling in their adulthood who have never before stepped foot on the mat.  Here, after high school or college, I don't think anyone steps on the mat again unless they are coaching but in many countries you'll see men of all age/skill levels training several days a week.  In Estonia I've got an awesome video of an 85 year old man that still trains in Greco 3 times a week at a local club climbing ropes with just his hands.  For many overseas clubs, wrestling is not just a youth sport, it's embedded in their culture.

[MNbadger]

There would not be much scoring in greco without the forced par terre so it will be interesting what they do with it.

So there is no team aspect in international wrestling at any level/style.  It is all about the individuals?

It sounds like there system is better for developing individuals but maybe we the US has more kids participating?

I get the impression that the run their wrestling like we do our gymnastics.  If you are quite good at the ages of 8-10, then you move to a training center. 

I would bet we would do better if the top kids all moved to Colorado Springs or something at age 10 and focused on one style and were home schooled.  Just not sure that makes much sense in the big picture for a sport that gets no support.  The olympic gymnasts become millionaires.  Olympic wrestlers would have sacrificed many childhood experiences for a medal chance and then moved on with no money or support.

In my mind our system is better with high school and college wrestling as kids continue to get an education and prepare for rest of life at the same time.

I would agree.

[bman]

Doc:
"So there is no team aspect in international wrestling at any level/style.  It is all about the individuals?"

-- Yes, and no.  Their loyalty is really to their hometown club even if they end up at a National training Center for the better part of the year.  One foreign wrester that was a World Champion once said to me, "College Champion, big deal (sarcastic) we dream of being World and Olympic Champion.  In America you wrestle for a school for 4 years, then it's gone.  In my country, you are a member of your club for life."  He also mentioned that ALL former youth wrestlers from that club have a sense of duty and appreciation to return to the club and help coach whenever they are back in town.  In fact, sometimes, they make travel plans to go back just to spend time there and help coach.  He said, someone was there for me, now I will give back and be there for someone else.  This particular city is about the size of Green Bay or Kenosha and they have produced at least 6 World Champions in the past 25-30 years.  His club sells t-shirts with his name and likeness on it.  A major source of pride for the club.  Once a member, always a member.    

"It sounds like there system is better for developing individuals but maybe we the US has more kids participating?"


"I get the impression that the run their wrestling like we do our gymnastics.  If you are quite good at the ages of 8-10, then you move to a training center."  
-- It was that way in the Soviet Union, when they snatched you up and sent you to live in what amounted to an Olympic Training center for youth.  Now they tend to stick with their clubs.  However, their clubs are just crazy good as referenced previously.  

"I would bet we would do better if the top kids all moved to Colorado Springs or something at age 10 and focused on one style and were home schooled.  Just not sure that makes much sense in the big picture for a sport that gets no support.  The olympic gymnasts become millionaires.  Olympic wrestlers would have sacrificed many childhood experiences for a medal chance and then moved on with no money or support."
-- I agree.

"In my mind our system is better with high school and college wrestling as kids continue to get an education and prepare for rest of life at the same time."
--Absolutely agree.  However the few that do achieve World Medals (especially Gold) in other countries, even if those countries are seen as poor, get taken care of extremely well.  A Gold Medal in Azerbaijan gets you a million dollars.  The World Champion I referenced earlier, had a college degree in sports training and physical fitness.  However, I don't think he ever had to go to any class.  The country just gave him a college degree for his contribution as an athlete and hired him to coach the Junior National Teams.

As far as the burnout excuse.  Burnout does occur.  However, every kid is different.  Some kids burnout on things that are secondary to the sport (but wouldn't burnout on wrestling at all if the other things weren't there) such as, chronic weight cutting, pushy parents or coaches..., All their friends play basketball, or the constant sacrifice, or missing of other childhood activities.  Some just don't love it enough to do it all the time year round etc.  Other kids love it, but can't stay inspired beyond a few months a year.  Even those that don't necessarily love it, may still be on the mat for 12 months because they have a dream.  That dream keeps them going, even though the practice etc. is a constant stream of hard work.  
 However, I am not in agreement that kids will automatically burnout if they are on the mat 12 months a year.  If their interest level is there, it's there.  If their interest starts to wane, then dial things back.  I think some parents (me included, or, I have at least been criticized for my part) push more than they need to or should, and that causes the burnout or lack of desire beyond a certain point.  But, that isn't necessarily burnout from wrestling.  It is burnout from the pushiness or pressure from others.  However, a parent that says there is no need to wrestle deeper into the summer because the kid will burnout is a bit of a misnomer to me.  If the kid would be willing and would want to do more wrestling, then do it.  If they show any signs of lacking desire and effort, then cut back, encourage other things.  The kid will show you how much they want to do something if you make it available and/or encourage it without pressure and the decision is theirs.  How many of your kids play video games year 'round?  Are you concerned about burnout?  Do you pack up the game console and put it away from March until November?  Do they get sick of gaming and quit gaming forever, and instead switch activities to the reading of books?   Nope.... Burnout doesn't happen if the kid wants to do it, plain and simple.  If they "burnout" it may be due to other circumstances (as previously mentioned) such as constant weight cutting, or too many competitions, or they just don't like it enough to do it more that they currently are.

[DocWrestling]

Here we get pretty good numbers in the lower ages and then it really dwindles and that is a problem.  Is that different overseas?   Do many drop out?

Or is it because it is more popular in their culture that more stay with it or do they have less opportunities and distractions compared to American kids that I think make our kids softer and more distracted

[TomM]

2007 Greco World Champions United States

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_World_Wrestling_Championships

[DarkKnight]

Will wrestling be in the next Olympics??

Anyhow, many of the men can come back wiser and be more prepared, they have a ton of potential left untapped, which is a positive.

[Ghetto]

Here's my take on what wrestling needs- it should adopt one style in the future. Freestyle is a more complete form of wrestling when compared to Greco so that style should go by the wayside.  Then it will be one style for men and one for women and it can just be called wrestling.  At that point it will make sense for American schools to switch to the new single style of international wrestling.  It would mean more success on the world stage for Americans which should only feed interest in wrestling which should lead to more success.

I'm in.