What's going on with US Greco team?

[numberone]

Why are they giving up the gut so easily? Is it coaching? I don't know it is. They seem to be struggling a ton on their defense. They all seem fine on their feet.

[DocWrestling]

No medals this year!   Looks like they will all be happy to get rid of forced par terre and any mat wrestling.

[TomM]

This is an overstatement, but nobody is very good in par terre, no matter where they are from. Just watched a few other guys get gutted out on four straight 2 pointers.
It's almost 'luck of the draw' sometimes as to who will get a passivity call first. IMO

[aarons23]

This is an overstatement, but nobody is very good in par terre, no matter where they are from. Just watched a few other guys get gutted out on four straight 2 pointers.
It's almost 'luck of the draw' sometimes as to who will get a passivity call first. IMO

You hit the nail on the head Tom...I hate the way passivity...way to much judgement that can ultimately decide the match.

[DocWrestling]

I say this all the time but I hate the format and most of the rules!

1) Having the whole weight class finished in a couple hours is just idiotic when you have a week.  Passivity increases with each round because the guys get tired.  Give hours or days between matches so they are always fresh and you will have more action.  Have every weight class wrestle a round or 2 each day.
2) So many other sports have pools to see who advances.  Would love to have the wrestlers be put into pools of 5 or 6 and get multiple matches and then have the winner/top wrestlers of the pools advance.  Wrestlers get more of the experience and a more fair process on advancing.  Could then maybe have 8 wrestlers advance to championship draw and they are seeded based on pool standings.  Run a double elimination tourney so then we end up with a true 3rd place and not two silly bronze medals.

[vsmf2010]

I say this all the time but I hate the format and most of the rules!

1) Having the whole weight class finished in a couple hours is just idiotic when you have a week.  Passivity increases with each round because the guys get tired.  Give hours or days between matches so they are always fresh and you will have more action.  Have every weight class wrestle a round or 2 each day.
2) So many other sports have pools to see who advances.  Would love to have the wrestlers be put into pools of 5 or 6 and get multiple matches and then have the winner/top wrestlers of the pools advance.  Wrestlers get more of the experience and a more fair process on advancing.  Could then maybe have 8 wrestlers advance to championship draw and they are seeded based on pool standings.  Run a double elimination tourney so then we end up with a true 3rd place and not two silly bronze medals.

Excellent points Doc. I hate that a someone wrestles their entire life for a chance at the Olympics, they finally get there, wrestle one match, lose on a pushout or subjective passivity call, do not get pulled through to repechage and they are done. The athletes deserve better. Pool wrestling across several days into a seeded 8-man bracket with full wrestlebacks to bronze would give a much more honest result. Also having the wrestler make weight more than once and on consecutive days would be a good thing as well.

[vsmf2010]

I totally agree with the last two posts. Some guys might get only one chance in their life to make it to the Olympics. And like Bisek's first opponent yesterday. You lose 1-0 and it's over dream done. I can't think of any other main sports where it's like that. I might be in the minority but I also think that there should be a team event as well.

A team event would be awesome. The World Cup is a great event and if you good duplicate that with the energy, country support, and coverage of the Olympics it would be great theater.

[bigG]

The Olympics can be very deflating to wrestling fans. Goofy reffing and an odd format make for tough-to-swallow wrestling. Still, I just love Greco because it's so fight like. With my knees as they are, it's the only style left I can still swing.

Great ideas, all of you.

[DocWrestling]

One match a day, maybe two with hours in between.

How about wild and crazy...
No time clock-  first one to 8 points wins.  wrestle for 30 minutes if you have to.  No passivity calls.  let wrestlers use there strategy.  They can all out attack when fresh. they can play rope a dope, they can sink back and play defense like Sweden did against the US women's soccer team.  Man vs. Man- who want it more.  Could have a rule that you must score two points in each 5 minutes or the other wrestler gets 2 points. LOL!

Something tells me that the system is the way it is because the wrestlers do not want to make weight more than once.   Wrestling's dirty little secret.

Do this and the guys that cut too much weight will gas out in matches and over course of making weight multiple days?

Truth is that these guys train so hard and hate that it is so subjective with the refs and there are minimal second chances.  International wrestling needs to put the guys on the mat and let them go at it.  That would create drama certainly more than the old hidden balls, or passivity, and forced par tarre.  Heck maybe they need to give guys more time on the mat because much of the only scoring came on gut wrenches.

[Ty Clark]

Perhaps changing wrestling in the Olympics to a dual format would be the way to go.

Pros

• It would only count as three events, not 18.
• It would allow us to go to 8, 10 or however many weights we want.
• It would also open the doors to introducing a style or two into the Olympics (grappling, sambo, etc.)... or at least take the attention away from wrestling having so many events.
• It would be far easier for casual fans to follow and support their country's team.
• It would be far easier to televise and put on a good production.
• "Extra" wrestlers could get opportunity to compete
• Potential for "super-matches" if wrestlers bump up

Cons

• Fewer countries represented (big thing with the IOC)
• No individual Olympic glory (still have the world championships every year)

[DarkKnight]

Great posts by all of you.


Sad to see the way wrestling is set up, didn't even get to watch anything of it and its over already. quite pathetic, get pools, get them action.

[bman]

I am going to condense my comments into one post that includes several replies.

"Why are they giving up the gut so easily?"
--If you mean why are Americans so easy to gut etc.? It is because our wrestlers are always years behind the rest of the world in learning how to defend from par terre.  Americans dabble in Greco for at most, about 5 months a year until they are college age.  Also, we often lose top Greco guys to college programs who go on to later compete in freestyle at the senior level.  The foreign wrestlers start with greco or Freestyle at around age 12, and they only do one style (with few exceptions).  Many countries only do Greco.  As far as foreign wrestlers getting turned, if a guy gets his lock, and it is tight, it is very hard for anyone to defend, period.    

"It's almost 'luck of the draw' sometimes as to who will get a passivity call first."
-- I agree.  Refs are human and whether they are conscious of it or not, the refs can be very subjective or just flat out screw some guys.

"One match a day, maybe two with hours in between."
-- The USA would win even fewer medals this way.  Please see answer above regarding our dabbling in Greco (and for that matter freestyle through our teens and beyond).  One way Americans have neutralized our delay in specializing in Greco or Freestyle and have won international matches against more talented wrestlers is to wear our opponents down, and exhaust them.  The fatigue inflicted can come directly from one match or build up throughout the grind of several matches in a few hours.  Watch Cary Kolat against the Iranian (Kolat got screwed, but he exhausts him).  Dennis Hall wasn't winning 3 World Level Medals by having better technique or more experience. He did it by beating on guys and wearing them out and breaking them mentally and physically.  Both Brands (and Gable) were the same way.  Constant pressure, constantly heavy, constantly attacking.  Giving wrestlers more time between matches actually takes an advantage away from the Americans.  Bisek beat Vlasov two years ago at the Worlds because Bisek wore him out to the point of exhaustion.  If foreign wrestlers have a longer recovery time or even a day between matches, they are going to be even harder to beat.

"Also having the wrestler make weight more than once and on consecutive days would be a good thing as well."
-- Good for whom?  The international wrestler that doesn't cut weight?  Who might that be?  An exception may be Provisor.  After moving up a weight class Provisor has had no trouble making weight, but very few others would want to weigh in on consecutive days, and few would see it as an advantage.

"I might be in the minority but I also think that there should be a team event as well."  Another person posted something very similar. "Perhaps changing wrestling in the Olympics to a dual format would be the way to go."
-- The IOC has already cut weight classes because they don't want any more matches and events in the Olympics, and besides, that is what the World Cup is for. Also, what if you are a total stud, but the rest of your nation doesn't have any real medal contenders?  That individual wouldn't be competing because their team would not qualify.  Madsen from Denmark is a total stud.  He has been in the World Finals 5 times or more and he got the silver yesterday.  Denmark isn't ever qualifying for a team event, and so Mr. Madsen would not have wrestled in the Olympics (nor would 2014 World Champion, Peter Bacsi from Hungary, or the Guenot brothers from France who were Gold and Bronze Medalists). 

One thing I do agree with is the repechage only being for those that lost to a finalist.  Have a true backside of the bracket.  The tournament goes so quick as it is anyway.  Adding those matches won't delay the time elapsed until Bronze and Gold Medal matches occur, since they have that long break in between them. I know the IOC wants to limit the number of matches, but I think this argument for change could actually be made.  Not so long ago they had pools, but they went to line bracketing and that is how they have decided to do it for now. 

[MarkK]

I have to admit.  watching this Olympics and the wrestling so far has been pretty disappointing.  I hope freestyle is better.  So far from a casual observer you see a guy role around and the match is over.   Not very exciting.

[knowgangs]

I am going to condense my comments into one post that includes several replies.

"Why are they giving up the gut so easily?"
--If you mean why are Americans so easy to gut etc.? It is because our wrestlers are always years behind the rest of the world in learning how to defend from par terre.  Americans dabble in Greco for at most, about 5 months a year until they are college age.  Also, we often lose top Greco guys to college programs who go on to later compete in freestyle at the senior level.  The foreign wrestlers start with greco or Freestyle at around age 12, and they only do one style (with few exceptions).  Many countries only do Greco.  As far as foreign wrestlers getting turned, if a guy gets his lock, and it is tight, it is very hard for anyone to defend, period.    

"It's almost 'luck of the draw' sometimes as to who will get a passivity call first."
-- I agree.  Refs are human and whether they are conscious of it or not, the refs can be very subjective or just flat out screw some guys.

"One match a day, maybe two with hours in between."
-- The USA would win even fewer medals this way.  Please see answer above regarding our dabbling in Greco (and for that matter freestyle through our teens and beyond).  One way Americans have neutralized our delay in specializing in Greco or Freestyle and have won international matches against more talented wrestlers is to wear our opponents down, and exhaust them.  The fatigue inflicted can come directly from one match or build up throughout the grind of several matches in a few hours.  Watch Cary Kolat against the Iranian (Kolat got screwed, but he exhausts him).  Dennis Hall wasn't winning 3 World Level Medals by having better technique or more experience. He did it by beating on guys and wearing them out and breaking them mentally and physically.  Both Brands (and Gable) were the same way.  Constant pressure, constantly heavy, constantly attacking.  Giving wrestlers more time between matches actually takes an advantage away from the Americans.  Bisek beat Vlasov two years ago at the Worlds because Bisek wore him out to the point of exhaustion.  If foreign wrestlers have a longer recovery time or even a day between matches, they are going to be even harder to beat.

"Also having the wrestler make weight more than once and on consecutive days would be a good thing as well."
-- Good for whom?  The international wrestler that doesn't cut weight?  Who might that be?  An exception may be Provisor.  After moving up a weight class Provisor has had no trouble making weight, but very few others would want to weigh in on consecutive days, and few would see it as an advantage.

"I might be in the minority but I also think that there should be a team event as well."  Another person posted something very similar. "Perhaps changing wrestling in the Olympics to a dual format would be the way to go."
-- The IOC has already cut weight classes because they don't want any more matches and events in the Olympics, and besides, that is what the World Cup is for. Also, what if you are a total stud, but the rest of your nation doesn't have any real medal contenders?  That individual wouldn't be competing because their team would not qualify.  Madsen from Denmark is a total stud.  He has been in the World Finals 5 times or more and he got the silver yesterday.  Denmark isn't ever qualifying for a team event, and so Mr. Madsen would not have wrestled in the Olympics (nor would 2014 World Champion, Peter Bacsi from Hungary, or the Guenot brothers from France who were Gold and Bronze Medalists).  

One thing I do agree with is the repechage only being for those that lost to a finalist.  Have a true backside of the bracket.  The tournament goes so quick as it is anyway.  Adding those matches won't delay the time elapsed until Bronze and Gold Medal matches occur, since they have that long break in between them. I know the IOC wants to limit the number of matches, but I think this argument for change could actually be made.  Not so long ago they had pools, but they went to line bracketing and that is how they have decided to do it for now.  

Excellent post but I'm going to add one thing.  Overseas wrestlers start much earlier than 12 years old.  In Russia we saw wrestlers as young as 4 begin their training.  It wasn't playing games and doing gymnastics.   Wrestlers as young as 11 (if they show promise) are invited to Moscow to an all boys school who trains in wrestling full time.  In Belgium they say that their goal is to get their youth to join wrestling before they are introduced to other sports around the age of 5 - 6.  

In every country I've visited for youth wrestling (9 so far), their youth start Freestyle & Greco around 5 - 6 years old.  The only exception was speaking to a coach from the United Kingdom who said that in their country on the youth level it's virtually all Freestyle and not introduced to Greco until they are older.  

Training overseas is year around 2 - 3 days a week, however in Israel youth wrestle 6 days a week.  Some of my sons friends from Sweden & Finland say they train anywhere from 5 - 10 times a week (wrestling or workouts).  Generally by 12 years old they've already focusing on one style.  Rarely have I seen wrestlers who train in both styles.  Most clubs teach only one style.  In Hungary their wrestling federation forces the kids to train in Freestyle a few months out of the year and I'm told most of the kids hate it--they rather do Greco.  In Estonia I was told by one coach that "Men do Greco and the boys that were not good enough to get on the national Greco team switch to Freestyle."  Some countries only focus on Greco such as the Netherlands.  One Swedish wrestler told me in his country "Boys do Greco, girls do Freestyle."  

In Slovakia, clubs are partly financed by the government.  The better your wrestlers (including their youth) place at international events dictates how much money their club receives from the government.

From my experience, overseas they start younger, are one sport athletes and are one style wrestlers from a young age.  There is no such thing as high school or college wrestling overseas.  While our wrestlers have goals of being a state champ or national champ or wrestling in college, their wrestlers have bigger goals from a younger age.  Although there is several tournaments they train for and have goals of winning, overseas the wrestler's main goal is representing their country in international competition and that's encouraged and emphasized at a much younger age than here in the US.

[BDbacker]

^^^^^^Very interesting post. Thanks for that perspective.