Skill levels at tourneys

briggs · February 09, 2016, 11:01:02 AM

I was wondering if I could get some opinions on skill levels. When filling out these entry forms or on Track, they ask your wrestlers experience/skill level. I hate to say this but I have a kid that has some experience but just has not taken the next step in his level. What is the fair/honest answer?

imnofish · February 09, 2016, 11:11:26 AM

Man, that's a tough one. Ratings are so subjective and case specific that it's really hard to standardize them, IMO. Sounds like he's an average kid right now, but I've never seen him wrestle; nor have I seen the quality of his opponents. Just try and be as honest as possible in your assessment and let the chips fall where they may.

Jzelinski · February 09, 2016, 12:24:48 PM

Here is how I tackle this. If he is a state qualifier he is in the very least a good ranking. State place winner excellent. For the first year or 2 depending how the progression has been beginner. Anything after 2 years Average, again depending on the progression. Again just JMO.

bkraus · February 09, 2016, 12:36:51 PM

Quote from: Jzelinski on February 09, 2016, 12:24:48 PM
Here is how I tackle this. If he is a state qualifier he is in the very least a good ranking. State place winner excellent. For the first year or 2 depending how the progression has been beginner. Anything after 2 years Average, again depending on the progression. Again just JMO.

Exactly right. You are not doing the kid any good by sand bagging him. I saw a kid entered in a tournament a couple weeks back as a beginner that had 49 wins in the last 2 years. He's not a beginner.

tyben · February 09, 2016, 02:00:10 PM

I think it also depends if they are old or young for their bracket. A good 3rd grader might only be average when wrestling 4th graders, or a good 2006 might be average in a 05-06 bracket. I really wish we would not let kids wrestle two ratings higher or lower than their ranking, even if there are no other options at the tournament. In a sport with numbers declining at the rate we have we need to do a way better job of making wrestling a better experience for the beginner to average wrestler.

briggs · February 09, 2016, 03:21:58 PM

Great feedback, it is appreciated. I really would like to see more of these beginner-type tournaments. I like the concept and I think it would improve our numbers. Last Friday night I was at a tourney and remember why wrestling is getting a bad rap. A lot of bad parents mat side.

Numbers · February 09, 2016, 04:25:58 PM

For as easy as it is to blame the parents. The tournament directors need to get a finger pointed at them as well. They get final say on the brackets.

Actual bracket from last year 2006-2007
58 Beginner
60 Good
57 Excellent
60 Good
60 Excellent

Pin/Pin/Pin/Forfeit Guess who is not wrestling this year.

briggs · February 10, 2016, 08:52:20 AM

We have confronted a couple parents at our youth tourney and we seem to get the same response. The wrestler really "needs" to get a win, that is why they were bumped down in skill level, weight etc.. I think if they "need" a win maybe they are going about the sport the wrong way.

babywhales · February 10, 2016, 09:22:08 AM

Two years ago at our Tournament we started using Birth Year Bracketing with the following separation criteria:

State Placer
State Qualifier
Usually takes 1st or 2nd
Usually takes 2nd and 3rd
Usually takes 3rd and 4th
Beginner - 1st year wrestler

We went to objective separation criteria that we can double check.

We shut down registration 2 days before the tournament and spend 7-10 hours bracketing the tournament. We know a high % of the kids and pick up on lots of the parents who are not honest.

We have seen parents with multiple year state qualifiers enter kids as "usually take 3rd or 4th". We have seen state placers entered as "usually takes 2nd and 3rd". We have seen a lot of parents enter 2 and 3 year wrestlers enter as "Begineer-1st year wrestler". However, we can look up the wrestlers profile and adjust the brackets accordingly.

Our pins per bracket ratio has dropped significantly over the past two years as the variability of the comparable talent in the bracket has been greatly reduced. We are very pleased with this criteria yet understand we can not complete remove the parents who will manipulate registration to give their kids an edge.

Ghetto · February 10, 2016, 09:28:05 AM

Quote from: babywhales on February 10, 2016, 09:22:08 AM
Two years ago at our Tournament we started using Birth Year Bracketing with the following separation criteria:

State Placer
State Qualifier
Usually takes 1st or 2nd
Usually takes 2nd and 3rd
Usually takes 3rd and 4th
Beginner - 1st year wrestler

We went to objective separation criteria that we can double check.

We shut down registration 2 days before the tournament and spend 7-10 hours bracketing the tournament. We know a high % of the kids and pick up on lots of the parents who are not honest.

We have seen parents with multiple year state qualifiers enter kids as "usually take 3rd or 4th". We have seen state placers entered as "usually takes 2nd and 3rd". We have seen a lot of parents enter 2 and 3 year wrestlers enter as "Begineer-1st year wrestler". However, we can look up the wrestlers profile and adjust the brackets accordingly.

Our pins per bracket ratio has dropped significantly over the past two years as the variability of the comparable talent in the bracket has been greatly reduced. We are very pleased with this criteria yet understand we can not complete remove the parents who will manipulate registration to give their kids an edge.

I think that having objective, factual levels is better than generalizations.

I took my son to a beginner tournament last weekend. The kid he got smashed by in his first match was in his fourth year, according to a parent from the same area. That's not a beginner.

bkraus · February 10, 2016, 10:39:34 AM

Quote from: babywhales on February 10, 2016, 09:22:08 AM
Two years ago at our Tournament we started using Birth Year Bracketing with the following separation criteria:

State Placer
State Qualifier
Usually takes 1st or 2nd
Usually takes 2nd and 3rd
Usually takes 3rd and 4th
Beginner - 1st year wrestler

We went to objective separation criteria that we can double check.

We shut down registration 2 days before the tournament and spend 7-10 hours bracketing the tournament. We know a high % of the kids and pick up on lots of the parents who are not honest.

We have seen parents with multiple year state qualifiers enter kids as "usually take 3rd or 4th". We have seen state placers entered as "usually takes 2nd and 3rd". We have seen a lot of parents enter 2 and 3 year wrestlers enter as "Begineer-1st year wrestler". However, we can look up the wrestlers profile and adjust the brackets accordingly.

Our pins per bracket ratio has dropped significantly over the past two years as the variability of the comparable talent in the bracket has been greatly reduced. We are very pleased with this criteria yet understand we can not complete remove the parents who will manipulate registration to give their kids an edge.

I love this concept. What tourney is this? I will bring my kid next year if not too far away or another conflict.

imnofish · February 10, 2016, 11:51:31 AM

Quote from: babywhales on February 10, 2016, 09:22:08 AM
Two years ago at our Tournament we started using Birth Year Bracketing with the following separation criteria:

State Placer
State Qualifier
Usually takes 1st or 2nd
Usually takes 2nd and 3rd
Usually takes 3rd and 4th
Beginner - 1st year wrestler

We went to objective separation criteria that we can double check.

We shut down registration 2 days before the tournament and spend 7-10 hours bracketing the tournament. We know a high % of the kids and pick up on lots of the parents who are not honest.

We have seen parents with multiple year state qualifiers enter kids as "usually take 3rd or 4th". We have seen state placers entered as "usually takes 2nd and 3rd". We have seen a lot of parents enter 2 and 3 year wrestlers enter as "Begineer-1st year wrestler". However, we can look up the wrestlers profile and adjust the brackets accordingly.

Our pins per bracket ratio has dropped significantly over the past two years as the variability of the comparable talent in the bracket has been greatly reduced. We are very pleased with this criteria yet understand we can not complete remove the parents who will manipulate registration to give their kids an edge.

I like this concept. Not so subjective and open to interpretation. Verifiable credentials enhance parental accountability, with today's internet tools.

babywhales · February 10, 2016, 12:27:30 PM

Quote from: bkraus on February 10, 2016, 10:39:34 AM
Quote from: babywhales on February 10, 2016, 09:22:08 AM
Two years ago at our Tournament we started using Birth Year Bracketing with the following separation criteria:

State Placer
State Qualifier
Usually takes 1st or 2nd
Usually takes 2nd and 3rd
Usually takes 3rd and 4th
Beginner - 1st year wrestler

We went to objective separation criteria that we can double check.

We shut down registration 2 days before the tournament and spend 7-10 hours bracketing the tournament. We know a high % of the kids and pick up on lots of the parents who are not honest.

We have seen parents with multiple year state qualifiers enter kids as "usually take 3rd or 4th". We have seen state placers entered as "usually takes 2nd and 3rd". We have seen a lot of parents enter 2 and 3 year wrestlers enter as "Begineer-1st year wrestler". However, we can look up the wrestlers profile and adjust the brackets accordingly.

Our pins per bracket ratio has dropped significantly over the past two years as the variability of the comparable talent in the bracket has been greatly reduced. We are very pleased with this criteria yet understand we can not complete remove the parents who will manipulate registration to give their kids an edge.

I love this concept. What tourney is this? I will bring my kid next year if not too far away or another conflict.

The Portage Kick Off Classic. Second Sunday of December.

Numbers · February 10, 2016, 12:43:12 PM

Quote from: babywhales on February 10, 2016, 09:22:08 AM

State Placer
State Qualifier
Usually takes 1st or 2nd
Usually takes 2nd and 3rd
Usually takes 3rd and 4th
Beginner - 1st year wrestler

Very nice flyer for the Portage tournament last year. These bracketing criteria were not listed though. Just the age divisions. It would be nice to have bracketing criteria on all tournament flyers (beyond birth year or grade). Of course it is still more important that the tournament directors use the information they are provided.

DocWrestling · February 10, 2016, 12:55:25 PM

I agree that beginners should not be wrestling good and excellent.

Maybe it would be better if we simply went to two divisions

2005/2006 age group
Gold division- For the good and excellent type wrestlers
Silver division- for the beginners and average

I think this would work better because trackwrestling would not go mainly by just weight. You could extend the weight differences a little bit. I would rather a kid wrestle a heavier beginner within reason than wrestle a good or excellent kid that weighs the same.

I also think parents would think twice of entering a good wrestler in the "silver" division because it would be more obvious for people to notice their cheating and their egos would get in the way because they would not want their kid in the "silver" division.