Tournament Bracketing=Bloated Individual Records

[MNbadger]

Agreed!

I think people may have missed the first part of my response where I said I specifically went with line brackets because we don't see them very often anymore and kids don't experience the elimination element or having to wrestle back through a bracket anymore because of all of the scramble formats and dual tourneys. When we have discussed this each year at the coaches meeting all of the coaches in attendance nod their heads in agreement, and then the return for the next year if they like the format. If they don't, they are welcome to find another tournament. If there wasn't enough interest in doing it this way we would change it.

I have read responses that include things like they "should" have been 8 man brackets or that maybe pool or scramble formats might be more fitting. What I am trying to communicate is that I recognize the issues that are being brought up, and we still created the type of brackets and tournament experiences that we want. The brackets should be exactly what they were because it is what we and the teams attending the tournament want for our teams at this point in the season, based upon the rest of our schedule.

Run your tournament how you want to run it. Like you said if teams don't like it, they can find a different tournament. If members of this forum don't like it, maybe they should offer their services to help you run the tournament they way they see fit!

Really....why does this matter? So a kid gets a bye and on occasion two at a tournament. Big deal. They don't get them at the tournaments that really matter. Is a kid having a few more wins on his career record because he got two byes at a tournament really that big of a concern for some people?

[GradeTough]

I think people may have missed the first part of my response where I said I specifically went with line brackets because we don't see them very often anymore and kids don't experience the elimination element or having to wrestle back through a bracket anymore because of all of the scramble formats and dual tourneys. When we have discussed this each year at the coaches meeting all of the coaches in attendance nod their heads in agreement, and then the return for the next year if they like the format. If they don't, they are welcome to find another tournament. If there wasn't enough interest in doing it this way we would change it.

I have read responses that include things like they "should" have been 8 man brackets or that maybe pool or scramble formats might be more fitting. What I am trying to communicate is that I recognize the issues that are being brought up, and we still created the type of brackets and tournament experiences that we want. The brackets should be exactly what they were because it is what we and the teams attending the tournament want for our teams at this point in the season, based upon the rest of our schedule.

I agree also.

Run your tournament how you want to run it. Like you said if teams don't like it, they can find a different tournament. If members of this forum don't like it, maybe they should offer their services to help you run the tournament they way they see fit!

Really....why does this matter? So a kid gets a bye and on occasion two at a tournament. Big deal. They don't get them at the tournaments that really matter. Is a kid having a few more wins on his career record because he got two byes at a tournament really that big of a concern for some people?

[ramjet]

My point is this; it will all wash out at a regionals and sectionals.

[GradeTough]

My point is thus it will all wash out at a regionals and sectionals.

+100

[Dineen]

Waukesha South runs a great tournament, the format they use is done specifically for a reason which many coaches appreciate.  We have attended this tournament all three years they have run it.  At the end of the day, we are looking for competition that will help our wrestlers improve their skills, give them a worthwhile experience, and hopefully leave them with a love for the sport like all of us has.  The truth is many teams do not fill a complete line up for many reasons.  Many tournaments allow additional wrestlers to fill brackets.  These are positive things for the sport, of course we all wish that every team had a full line up, but the reality is that we need to build numbers in our sport.  Give credit to coaches and Athletic Directors for coming up with ways to provide worthwhile competition for all wrestlers, not just the top 1%.  Thank you to Waukesha South for another great day of competition

[mhsfan2]

Because a couple teams were not able to show up Sparta had a couple weights they changed the brackets to round robin. I didn't hear any coaches complaining about team scoring just glad to change things so all kids could get their 4 or 5 matches with as few FF as possible.

[wrastle63]

Yea it isn't about bloating records as much as it is getting the kids to wrestle as much as possible. Kids don't want to get two forfeits and wrestle two matches. They came out for the sport to compete.

[stbird]

I've never seen a bye count as a win. Forfeit yes, bye no. That is very strange and should be banned at the state level. Just because the coaches like it doesn' mean it is right.

[bigoil]

Byes have counted for wins as far as I can remember and that is at least 40 years. In fact, it also counts as a pin (not in you pin count but in terms of team points) if you win the next match.

Why shouldn't their be byes as not only a win but also a pin? Say in an 8 man bracket there is one opening and the seeding is such that the 1 seed gets a bye. You want to take away a win and a likely pin from his team? If you had no bye points, coaches would be arguing their 3 time undefeated state champ should be a two seed to allow them to get bonus points.

[joeski]

I think bird may be correct, and oil is as well. I looked at a tourney for our team from Sat. Our 170 had first round bye. Then won 3 matches. His record went up by 3 wins. But he pinned his opponent in the 2nd round, getting bonus points for both rounds and the advancement points. Now a forfeit I am sure adds to your record. Anyone else look at a tourney recently?

[DocWrestling]

There should be a way to do this especially with track wrestling.  If you invite 10 teams then each bracket could have 10 wrestlers in it.  If a team does not have a wrestler then enter them as "Forfeit Forfeit" for those teams.  "Forfeit Forfeit" is a wrestler and not just an open space on a bracket  If you have to wrestle against "Forfeit Forfeit" then you certainly should get a win as it is not your fault they do not have a wrestler. Just like a dual. But if you use a 16 man bracket and invite 10 teams then those other 6 spots would be byes and should not count as wins.

Instead of everything being a bye like it is now we should be able to discern between forfeit and bye.

I do like that more tournaments are NOT randomly assigning the "byes" and now just giving them to the top seeds.  Wrestling an unseeded wrestler against the top seed does not help either wrestler.

[bigoil]

I think bird may be correct, and oil is as well. I looked at a tourney for our team from Sat. Our 170 had first round bye. Then won 3 matches. His record went up by 3 wins. But he pinned his opponent in the 2nd round, getting bonus points for both rounds and the advancement points. Now a forfeit I am sure adds to your record. Anyone else look at a tourney recently?

Weird, were you at the Sparta invite? I checked quite a few tournaments and they all awarded a win for the bye but not the Sparta Invite. Yet the scoring is off because they used different types of brackets.  Example:
113 first place winner: 5 wins, 4 pins,              scored 24 points.
170 first place winner 3 wins, 2 pins and a TF   Scored 27.5 points.

6 man round robin vs 12 man bracket. The 12 man bracket must have received advancement points where the round robin didn't.

Doc, could you run these like they did, which seems right but then put them in the same bracket type to get the scoring consistent? Put them in a bracket 1-6 and they get advancement points and bonus but not on all 5 matches.

[joeski]

Yes. It was Sparta that I checked.

[DocWrestling]

Having different bracket types can make it better formats for the wrestlers depending on how many wrestlers are in each weight class but it does absolutely affect team scoring.