Tournament Bracketing=Bloated Individual Records

matdad · January 19, 2019, 11:43:29 AM

In a recent post in a different thread, there was discussion of byes and defaults counting for wins. That discussion; along with some bracketing at a tournament today leads me to this: How many wrestlers records are bloated with wins they probably shouldn't have?

I understand the concept of awarding a win to wrestlers in a tournament who get a bye and then win their next match, but I do not understand why those wins should be awarded if the brackets are not built to properly for the number of wrestlers in them. At a tournament in the southern part of the state, the whole tournament is built with either 12 or 16 man brackets. There are 6 of the 12 person brackets that have 8 or fewer wrestlers in them. These brackets should've been built as 8 person brackets to better represent a wrestler's true record.

In a 12 person bracket with 7 wrestlers, the top seed gets byes the first two rounds. If that wrestler wins the 3rd round, they are awarded 3 wins for wrestling once. All of the other second round winners receive 2 wins for wrestling once. And, on the back side of the bracket, the 7th place winner would receive an extra win because of all the byes meeting on that side of the bracket.

I bet if the brackets at these tournaments were built to represent the actual number of wrestlers within them, there would be far fewer 50+ match winners each year.

South Coach · January 19, 2019, 09:41:26 PM

Thanks for coming to our tournament today! When we started this tournament a few years back I specifically wanted to give our kids the experience of a line bracketed tournament prior to our end of season run because with so many scrambles there a fewer and fewer line bracketed tourneys out there.

We have had between 12 and 15 teams every year. This year we had 14. The first year we ran a few 8 man brackets due to some weight classes having low numbers, and we realized that a #1 seed in one of our 12 man brackets with say 10 or 11 guys would get 4 wins on his record if he were to win his bracket (1 bye, 3 wins) and a #1 seed in an 8 man bracket with say 7 guys would get only 3 wins on his record (1 bye, 2 wins).

Last year we decided to run all 12 man in part to streamline the rounds and to make up for the difference. If you win our tournament, you get 4 wins on your record and we do not "penalize" a kid with one fewer win just because the teams he is competing against are not fielding a full lineup. After all, there were 14 teams and he showed up to wrestle! He was the best wrestler out of 14 schools regardless of how many were in his bracket, the same as the winner of a bracket with 11.

I do see your point of view and completely understand it as well. As an individual tournament it is different than a dual tournament where that same wrestler would be getting forfeits added to his record. I am not necessarily disagreeing with your point of view either in that many high school records do become "bloated" throughout the season. I am sharing this so you know that we have put thought into it and made a specific decision. It is not an easy cut and dry decision but one that I feel aligns with how many schools currently accumulate wins as well. To that point, I think that helps our kids (and those schools who attend our tournament) not be at a great disadvantage for seeding at regionals.

*Obviously the 16 man brackets were for any weights that went over 12.

Good discussion, and thanks again for coming to our tournament!

ramjet · January 20, 2019, 07:40:52 AM

It's not completely bloated as you say. They must win the match following the bye or they do not get that win on their record. So I think it fair to say the reason is the wrestler in 99% of the cases would love that first match and top seeds it's highly unlikely they would loose. Not impossible but the probably is low that's why they are a top seed they win. So as I see your point it's not fair to punish the wrestlers either. Like I said they would rather her wrestle the first match even though they have a high probability of winning that first round match.

wrastle63 · January 20, 2019, 11:23:08 AM

Agree with matdad. One win for a bye is fine, but if guys are getting two byes the bracket type is bloating records. So a wrestler wins two matches but gets four wins?

panther93 · January 20, 2019, 11:37:21 AM

I see it both ways. I don't like kids getting rewarded for not wrestling, but at the same time, it is not the kids fault that they didn't have an opponent. In the end if they are moving ahead in a tournament, I see a problem.

matdad · January 20, 2019, 12:51:40 PM

Quote from: ramjet on January 20, 2019, 07:40:52 AM
It's not completely bloated as you say. They must win the match following the bye or they do not get that win on their record. So I think it fair to say the reason is the wrestler in 99% of the cases would love that first match and top seeds it's highly unlikely they would loose. Not impossible but the probably is low that's why they are a top seed they win. So as I see your point it's not fair to punish the wrestlers either. Like I said they would rather her wrestle the first match even though they have a high probability of winning that first round match.

I think you missed my point. Take a look at the bracketing from Waukesha South in yesterday's tournament and tell me that the brackets shouldn't have been 8 person brackets for at least 6 of the weight classes. I bet this isn't the only tournament that this happens in.

bigoil · January 20, 2019, 01:18:18 PM

That would be a tough way to run a tournament , not fair on scoring, breaks, etc.

matdad · January 20, 2019, 02:29:33 PM

Quote from: bigoil on January 20, 2019, 01:18:18 PM
That would be a tough way to run a tournament , not fair on scoring, breaks, etc.

Can you explain why that would make the tournament so much more difficult to manage? There were two bracketing types used in the tournament, what difference would a third make?

The other thing that was allowed in this tournament that was a bit odd; teams were allowed to enter more than one wrestler per bracket. Some teams had as many as 4 wrestlers in a bracket. Now, in my way of thinking, means that more than just the varsity level wrestler was allowed to participate. Does that, in essence, make this a JV level tournament?

imnofish · January 20, 2019, 02:45:40 PM

Quote from: matdad on January 20, 2019, 02:29:33 PM
Quote from: bigoil on January 20, 2019, 01:18:18 PM
That would be a tough way to run a tournament , not fair on scoring, breaks, etc.

Can you explain why that would make the tournament so much more difficult to manage? There were two bracketing types used in the tournament, what difference would a third make?

The other thing that was allowed in this tournament that was a bit odd; teams were allowed to enter more than one wrestler per bracket. Some teams had as many as 4 wrestlers in a bracket. Now, in my way of thinking, means that more than just the varsity level wrestler was allowed to participate. Does that, in essence, make this a JV level tournament?

Typically, only one wrestler from each team can score team points, in that situation and that wrestler must be designated prior to the start of wrestling.

wrastle63 · January 20, 2019, 03:27:20 PM

Quote from: matdad on January 20, 2019, 02:29:33 PM
Quote from: bigoil on January 20, 2019, 01:18:18 PM
That would be a tough way to run a tournament , not fair on scoring, breaks, etc.

Can you explain why that would make the tournament so much more difficult to manage? There were two bracketing types used in the tournament, what difference would a third make?

The other thing that was allowed in this tournament that was a bit odd; teams were allowed to enter more than one wrestler per bracket. Some teams had as many as 4 wrestlers in a bracket. Now, in my way of thinking, means that more than just the varsity level wrestler was allowed to participate. Does that, in essence, make this a JV level tournament?

It wouldn't.

bigoil · January 20, 2019, 04:11:16 PM

It would throw the scoring off. Advancement points in a 16 man bracket vs 8 are different. The brackets should be consistent to ensure balance scoring.

matdad · January 20, 2019, 04:35:45 PM

Quote from: bigoil on January 20, 2019, 04:11:16 PM
It would throw the scoring off. Advancement points in a 16 man bracket vs 8 are different. The brackets should be consistent to ensure balance scoring.

That might be true. So maybe going to pool/scramble type formats might be more fitting to this tournament? I'm sure there are solutions to the issue without having all of the byes in the 12 person brackets. If you think about it, it really isn't fair to the top seeded wrestler who is sitting in the stands all morning without getting mat time. I'm sure as top wrestlers, they would welcome any mat time they can get.

bigoil · January 20, 2019, 04:51:06 PM

Quote from: matdad on January 20, 2019, 04:35:45 PM
Quote from: bigoil on January 20, 2019, 04:11:16 PM
It would throw the scoring off. Advancement points in a 16 man bracket vs 8 are different. The brackets should be consistent to ensure balance scoring.
That might be true. So maybe going to pool/scramble type formats might be more fitting to this tournament? I'm sure there are solutions to the issue without having all of the byes in the 12 person brackets. If you think about it, it really isn't fair to the top seeded wrestler who is sitting in the stands all morning without getting mat time. I'm sure as top wrestlers, they would welcome any mat time they can get.

I have seen a tournament this year that did a five man round robin at 106 and 8/12 man brackets depending on the weight class and the points scored were skewed by weight class. Score of the tournament looked closer than it really was.

South Coach · January 20, 2019, 04:51:36 PM

I think people may have missed the first part of my response where I said I specifically went with line brackets because we don't see them very often anymore and kids don't experience the elimination element or having to wrestle back through a bracket anymore because of all of the scramble formats and dual tourneys. When we have discussed this each year at the coaches meeting all of the coaches in attendance nod their heads in agreement, and then the return for the next year if they like the format. If they don't, they are welcome to find another tournament. If there wasn't enough interest in doing it this way we would change it.

I have read responses that include things like they "should" have been 8 man brackets or that maybe pool or scramble formats might be more fitting. What I am trying to communicate is that I recognize the issues that are being brought up, and we still created the type of brackets and tournament experiences that we want. The brackets should be exactly what they were because it is what we and the teams attending the tournament want for our teams at this point in the season, based upon the rest of our schedule.

CoachZ · January 20, 2019, 05:20:09 PM

Quote from: South Coach on January 20, 2019, 04:51:36 PM
I think people may have missed the first part of my response where I said I specifically went with line brackets because we don't see them very often anymore and kids don't experience the elimination element or having to wrestle back through a bracket anymore because of all of the scramble formats and dual tourneys. When we have discussed this each year at the coaches meeting all of the coaches in attendance nod their heads in agreement, and then the return for the next year if they like the format. If they don't, they are welcome to find another tournament. If there wasn't enough interest in doing it this way we would change it.

I have read responses that include things like they "should" have been 8 man brackets or that maybe pool or scramble formats might be more fitting. What I am trying to communicate is that I recognize the issues that are being brought up, and we still created the type of brackets and tournament experiences that we want. The brackets should be exactly what they were because it is what we and the teams attending the tournament want for our teams at this point in the season, based upon the rest of our schedule.

Run your tournament how you want to run it. Like you said if teams don't like it, they can find a different tournament. If members of this forum don't like it, maybe they should offer their services to help you run the tournament they way they see fit!

Really....why does this matter? So a kid gets a bye and on occasion two at a tournament. Big deal. They don't get them at the tournaments that really matter. Is a kid having a few more wins on his career record because he got two byes at a tournament really that big of a concern for some people?