Excessive use of the chin (question)

kabrvi · February 03, 2014, 01:13:22 PM

At a youth tournament this weekend I watched a 6 or 7th grade kid use his chin very aggressively.

He was in the top position and would get an arm bar and just grind away. I mean he would just bury it.

I knew two of the kids he did it to and their shoulder area was still bothering them well after the match

It was my position, and several other parents position, that this was "dirty". His coach appeared adamant that there was nothing wrong with this excessive use in spite of several parents yelling, "watch his chin" to the poor youth wrestler referee who was caught in the middle of it.

IMO, this is no different than a wrestler taking the point of his elbow and driving it in a kid's back or neck to improve a pinning advantage which I believe to be illegal.

But, I really don't know the rule and the next time I witness something like this I would like to approach it with full knowledge of what is allowed.

It was really bad and I will be the first to acknowledge it is a tough sport that inflicts pain, but this didn't seem right.

So, what is the rule on this?

Thanks.

DrWhargoul · February 03, 2014, 01:51:34 PM

Nothing about it here: http://lexfridman.com/blogs/training/files/2013/12/2012-13-Wrestling-Rules-Book-for-IA.pdf

Or here: http://awn.theopenmat.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/RULEBOOK_2013.pdf

Granted I only text searched the word "chin".

bman · February 03, 2014, 01:55:43 PM

Protect the kid, but out the coach. Something that isn't clearly defined in the rules may still be illegal, and if nothing else is still very
unsportsmanlike. There is no place for that in youth wrestling. If a coach is encouraging kids or at the very least defending it, shame on that coach. They also should be prepared for the rest of the community to know they think it's ok. Is it wrong to out them? If they are bothered by being outed, then deep down, they know it's bush league crap.

DocWrestling · February 03, 2014, 02:17:43 PM

Unsportsmanlike conduct can have a broad definition and not all actions can be listed in a rule book.

tim krause · February 03, 2014, 02:23:48 PM

well i have kids that use there chin to help pin an opp. i agree some go to far and use it like it is a move. you talk about outing coaches and it being bush league crap. but if your wrestling a a kid and he bottles up and does nothing and stalls out a match what is that i have taught my kids to be aggressive and work to get what they need. sometimes a little chin in the back is what is needed to get the kid to move or open up.
it is no different than digging your knuckles in to a side to get him to move so you can get that half nelson. or pressureing on a knee when you have a single leg. or pushing a kid off the mat durning a stopage

i understand where your comming from but repectfully disagree on outing coaches. it is very hard to find people willing to help with a program cause its all good as long as little johnny is looking good but as soon as it goes south parents are quick to blame the coach.

DrWhargoul · February 03, 2014, 02:37:22 PM

Quote from: DocWrestling on February 03, 2014, 02:17:43 PM
Unsportsmanlike conduct can have a broad definition and not all actions can be listed in a rule book.

True enough. I saw a kid kick another in the face last year. 8th graders I think. There was absolutely no force behind it; he was honestly just trying to get the other kid to turn in a certain direction. But I thought very little of the tactic and it did not get called by the official. (I don't recall if it was a HS kid or an adult any longer)

DocWrestling · February 03, 2014, 02:47:27 PM

It is all in eye of the ref. Was their a purpose to using the chin, foot, etc? Was it excessive? Was the intent to hurt the indiviual?

Some can call a head slap right away and the next guy will let the two wrestlers box.

The hard part is that refs usually only call such things if and only when the other wrestler is hurt or cries.

bigoil · February 03, 2014, 03:23:41 PM

Chin is a great extra hand, didn't see it but find it hard to see it being unsportsmanlike.

thequad · February 03, 2014, 04:02:20 PM

Any action used just to cause pain is illegal.

Tonto · February 03, 2014, 04:30:01 PM

Wrestling itself can be painfull, how can any painfull action be illegal? Any action to use pressure or apply pressure would be legal. The only way I could see this illegal if it was a repeating spearing motion.

tim krause · February 03, 2014, 04:37:50 PM

Quote from: thequad on February 03, 2014, 04:02:20 PM
Any action used just to cause pain is illegal.

so the the headlock the arm bar and the power half should all be illegal. This is wrestling not ballot

imwi · February 03, 2014, 04:44:38 PM

Quote from: tim krause on February 03, 2014, 04:37:50 PM
Quote from: thequad on February 03, 2014, 04:02:20 PM
Any action used just to cause pain is illegal.
so the the headlock the arm bar and the power half should all be illegal. This is wrestling not ballot

It's ballet not ballot and read what the guy said, anything used "JUST" for pain is illegal

DocWrestling · February 03, 2014, 04:58:05 PM

The ref has the right to interpret the intent just like they do in any other sport. Causing pain to get an advantage is illegal otherwise we might as well make squeezing the jimmies legal or why not just shoot a high crotch and bury your fist into the opponents belly button.

The ref has the right to determine when it is a head butt and when it is incidental or within the normal movements for wrestling.

Can pinching be legal?

It is about intent. I have seen switches called for unsportsmanlike conduct because the wrestler violently threw an elbow at his opponent. It was not a natural move and intent was meant to be maliscious.

I do think a coach telling youth wrestlers to bury his chin in the back of someone is bush league and may earn your wrestler a victory but at what cost to the sport as a whole. You can bee the champ after everyone else quits!

bigoil · February 03, 2014, 09:37:21 PM

Quote from: DocWrestling on February 03, 2014, 04:58:05 PM
The ref has the right to interpret the intent just like they do in any other sport. Causing pain to get an advantage is illegal otherwise we might as well make squeezing the jimmies legal or why not just shoot a high crotch and bury your fist into the opponents belly button.

The ref has the right to determine when it is a head butt and when it is incidental or within the normal movements for wrestling.

Can pinching be legal?

It is about intent. I have seen switches called for unsportsmanlike conduct because the wrestler violently threw an elbow at his opponent. It was not a natural move and intent was meant to be maliscious.

I do think a coach telling youth wrestlers to bury his chin in the back of someone is bush league and may earn your wrestler a victory but at what cost to the sport as a whole. You can bee the champ after everyone else quits!

I am going to assume the kid was wrestling not just burying his chin in the back. There were referees present and even HS refs will discern between wrestling and mauling.

Performance · February 05, 2014, 06:08:03 PM

This is wrestling! I have coached many years and teach pressure points in youth wrestling. So yea maybe I should be one of those outed for teaching such a brutal thing and being big meany in this tough sport ha ha..