Poll
Question:
Will Amos be HWT next year?
Option 1: Yes
votes: 13
Option 2: No
votes: 32
Thoughts on Amos?
Quote from: wrestler_73 on March 09, 2022, 10:29:27 AM
Thoughts on Amos?
With Trent back, I assume it is another year at 197 or a redshirt.
I really don't think Amos looks that big
I agree Amos has not looked big relative to many others at 197.
After seeing Braxton at 197 this year, I believe HWT is in his future. He looks like he has no energy at 197 compared to the way he was attacking this summer in freestyle.
Just watched his match vs Rutgers again. He did not look particularly large compared to Bulsak. His legs were a bit bigger.
Quote from: mkm13 on March 09, 2022, 11:03:36 AM
I agree Amos has not looked big relative to many others at 197.
I have no thought on it, because I do not know him, I do not watch him weigh in, ask him what he eats, etc.
Go on the Bugenhagen diet and lifting plan. He will beat Hilger next year at 230.
He obviously has international goals as well as college goals.
1. He wrestled at 97kg (214 pounds) for the junior worlds.
2. He wrestled at 220 pounds. in high school.
It showed great discipline to be able to wrestle at 197 pounds this year. I am sure it was a challenging cut/maintenance for him and likely affected his performance (explosiveness, endurance, and ability to chain wrestle). Visually he was not as aggressive as we saw him during the international season.
Could he wrestle heavy at 225-235 and still be the same guy internationally. I actually think that would help him internationally because he wouldn't be trying to rebuild strength after each college season at 197.
He is caught in a tough spot. He is definitely a case study why college should have a 220 weight class. That being said I hope to see him wrestle at Heavyweight weighing 230-235 pounds. Yes he would give up weight to many and may indeed have to redshirt.
I am sure he and the coaches have a plan going forward. I can't wait to see the Braxton I saw in high school and during international season.
Kyle Snyder did pretty well at 97kg and Hwt in college. It's possible.
Quote from: Gutwrench on March 10, 2022, 10:02:12 AM
Kyle Snyder did pretty well at 97kg and Hwt in college. It's possible.
I 100% agree.
A beast is a beast. I think Braxton can be that good.
The season's not over. He has wrestled and lost a lot of tough close matches. Minor adjustments are needed.
Braxton has said he has his weight under control now. He could still make a run at Nationals this year!
Quote from: Wisconsin Wrestling Fan on March 10, 2022, 10:24:43 AM
The season's not over. He has wrestled and lost a lot of tough close matches. Minor adjustments are needed.
Braxton has said he has his weight under control now. He could still make a run at Nationals this year!
I completely agree with this and we all hope he has an outstanding tournament.
We just haven't seen the same explosiveness, aggression, and chain wrestling we have seen from him during the international circuit. We are doing nothing more than thinking out loud.
Quote from: onwisconsin on March 10, 2022, 10:33:59 AM
Quote from: Wisconsin Wrestling Fan on March 10, 2022, 10:24:43 AM
The season's not over. He has wrestled and lost a lot of tough close matches. Minor adjustments are needed.
Braxton has said he has his weight under control now. He could still make a run at Nationals this year!
I completely agree with this and we all hope he has an outstanding tournament.
We just haven't seen the same explosiveness, aggression, and chain wrestling we have seen from him during the international circuit. We are doing nothing more than thinking out loud.
Agreed. Just thinking out loud having conversation. I agree on BA looking tentative however. I will say that it seems nobody wants to tie up with BA either. They probably don't want their shoes hitting the lights when Brax take them for a toss. Similar to how people stayed away from tying up with Thielke.
It is hard to know how much of it is weight or possible injury and how much of it is simply just the differences in folkstyle, freestyle, and greco. Some of what he is great at in freestyle and greco just do not translate that well to high end folkstyle (this is common for most, just pointing out there are differences at play). Having said that, I expected him to have more success on his feet against top guys than he has had.
High end folkstyle is really hard, especially if you are not training for it year round when other top guys are.
Quote from: mkm13 on March 10, 2022, 10:55:47 AM
High end folkstyle is really hard, especially if you are not training for it year round when other top guys are.
We get reminded of this over and over, but to a certain extent it still surprises me. I think there is more crossover with freestyle and folkstyle, but doing both at an elite level is not as common as one would initially think.
I have faith in Braxton however!
Quote from: Gutwrench on March 10, 2022, 11:09:46 AM
Quote from: mkm13 on March 10, 2022, 10:55:47 AM
High end folkstyle is really hard, especially if you are not training for it year round when other top guys are.
We get reminded of this over and over, but to a certain extent it still surprises me. I think there is more crossover with freestyle and folkstyle, but doing both at an elite level is not as common as one would initially think.
I have faith in Braxton however!
Quote from: mkm13 on March 10, 2022, 10:55:47 AM
It is hard to know how much of it is weight or possible injury and how much of it is simply just the differences in folkstyle, freestyle, and greco. Some of what he is great at in freestyle and greco just do not translate that well to high end folkstyle (this is common for most, just pointing out there are differences at play). Having said that, I expected him to have more success on his feet against top guys than he has had.
High end folkstyle is really hard, especially if you are not training for it year round when other top guys are.
It might be interesting to get Ben Peterson's take on this.
What is not mentioned anywhere yet??
He is adjusting to college life also. That means classes and other distractions.
Nobody has mentioned wrestling being fun. I am guessing he would be having a lot more fun with wrestling and college life if he did not have to cut so much weight
I honestly hope for his sake he goes to heavyweight even if it meant a little less college success
Quote from: onwisconsin on March 10, 2022, 10:05:44 AM
Quote from: Gutwrench on March 10, 2022, 10:02:12 AM
Kyle Snyder did pretty well at 97kg and Hwt in college. It's possible.
I 100% agree.
A beast is a beast. I think Braxton can be that good.
I also said on that. Looking at Braxtons results in high school and worlds he seems to be more suited for a heavier weight but that is just me.
A 225 weight class in college would fit Braxton to a tee but since we dont have it Braxton is a smaller HWT at this time. I also think part of him looking small at 197 is the fact he maybe a little sucked down.
I'm trying to think who was great at Freestyle but not at Folk...anyone have ideas? Serious question, I can't think of any...seems any of our elite freestyler's were/are elite folkstyler's as well. Greco...totally different story.
With that being said/asked, I am totally confused as to why BA's freestyle success didn't translate to folkstyle success...personally he doesn't look particularly "big" for the weight class so not sure how the weight cut would be that big of an impact. Wouldn't think it is a mental thing given he has performed on the world stage. Who knows...maybe it is a weight and style thing?? Wish him the best though!
John Peterson:
1X NAIA AA (5th place). Multiple time World Champ, Multiple time Olympic medalist-one gold.
Ben Peterson 2X NCAA Champ, multiple time World level and Olympic level medalist.
Quote from: imnofish on March 10, 2022, 11:15:17 AM
Quote from: Gutwrench on March 10, 2022, 11:09:46 AM
Quote from: mkm13 on March 10, 2022, 10:55:47 AM
High end folkstyle is really hard, especially if you are not training for it year round when other top guys are.
We get reminded of this over and over, but to a certain extent it still surprises me. I think there is more crossover with freestyle and folkstyle, but doing both at an elite level is not as common as one would initially think.
I have faith in Braxton however!
Quote from: mkm13 on March 10, 2022, 10:55:47 AM
It is hard to know how much of it is weight or possible injury and how much of it is simply just the differences in folkstyle, freestyle, and greco. Some of what he is great at in freestyle and greco just do not translate that well to high end folkstyle (this is common for most, just pointing out there are differences at play). Having said that, I expected him to have more success on his feet against top guys than he has had.
High end folkstyle is really hard, especially if you are not training for it year round when other top guys are.
It might be interesting to get Ben Peterson's take on this.
Quote from: MNbadger on March 10, 2022, 12:48:12 PM
John Peterson:
1X NAIA AA (5th place). Multiple time World Champ, Multiple time Olympic medalist-one gold.
Ben Peterson 2X NCAA Champ, multiple time World level and Olympic level medalist.Quote from: imnofish on March 10, 2022, 11:15:17 AM
Beat me to it. He took second at state in HS - but that was it prior to the small college success he began to experience while wrestling for Stout. But things exploded once his brother Ben got rolling and went to ISU; both brothers were exposed to Gable and the top level talent in that room. Suffice to say, John came from a long way back to achieve his successes.
Quote from: dman on March 10, 2022, 12:32:09 PM
I'm trying to think who was great at Freestyle but not at Folk...anyone have ideas? Serious question, I can't think of any...seems any of our elite freestyler's were/are elite folkstyler's as well. Greco...totally different story.
With that being said/asked, I am totally confused as to why BA's freestyle success didn't translate to folkstyle success...personally he doesn't look particularly "big" for the weight class so not sure how the weight cut would be that big of an impact. Wouldn't think it is a mental thing given he has performed on the world stage. Who knows...maybe it is a weight and style thing?? Wish him the best though!
I would say there are many examples of people who have had great freestyle results at junior levels but were not great college folkstyle wrestlers. I would say there is not many examples of elite freestyle wrestlers at the senior level who were not great folkstyle wrestlers. I am not sure Braxton as at that level in freestyle yet at the senior level. Kollin Moore beat him pretty quick (as he would with most everyone who is not elite).
Does anyone have a list of freestyle wins Braxton has against really good freestyle wrestlers (beat them after having success at college or senior level, not at junior levels)? This is not a knock on Braxton, other than just acknowledging he is young and still has time to develop.
Quote from: mkm13 on March 10, 2022, 03:06:47 PM
Quote from: dman on March 10, 2022, 12:32:09 PM
I'm trying to think who was great at Freestyle but not at Folk...anyone have ideas? Serious question, I can't think of any...seems any of our elite freestyler's were/are elite folkstyler's as well. Greco...totally different story.
With that being said/asked, I am totally confused as to why BA's freestyle success didn't translate to folkstyle success...personally he doesn't look particularly "big" for the weight class so not sure how the weight cut would be that big of an impact. Wouldn't think it is a mental thing given he has performed on the world stage. Who knows...maybe it is a weight and style thing?? Wish him the best though!
I would say there are many examples of people who have had great freestyle results at junior levels but were not great college folkstyle wrestlers. I would say there is not many examples of elite freestyle wrestlers at the senior level who were not great folkstyle wrestlers. I am not sure Braxton as at that level in freestyle yet at the senior level. Kollin Moore beat him pretty quick (as he would with most everyone who is not elite).
Does anyone have a list of freestyle wins Braxton has against really good freestyle wrestlers (beat them after having success at college or senior level, not at junior levels)? This is not a knock on Braxton, other than just acknowledging he is young and still has time to develop.
Right off the top of my head he has wins over T.J Dudley, Scottie Boykin and Michael Boykin.
Both Boykins were not great in folksyle either. Braxton would have a good chance of beating both right now at their peak in folkstyle.
The only big win I remembered was Dudley. His success was at lighter weights, so i am not sure what weight differemce their was. Either way that was an impressive win.
My point in this is Braxton is still young and has a lot of time to improve in college folkstyle and senior freestyle. I thibk he will.
Quote from: mkm13 on March 10, 2022, 08:46:30 PM
Both Boykins were not great in folksyle either. Braxton would have a good chance of beating both right now at their peak in folkstyle.
The only big win I remembered was Dudley. His success was at lighter weights, so i am not sure what weight differemce their was. Either way that was an impressive win.
My point in this is Braxton is still young and has a lot of time to improve in college folkstyle and senior freestyle. I thibk he will.
Scottie Boykin is currently the 3rd ranked 92 Kg guy behind The Matrix and Nate Jackson so I think that would qualify him as a really good Freestyle wrestler.
RANK NAME CLUB PREVIOUS
1 J'den Cox OTC 1
2 Nate Jackson NJRTC 2
3 Scottie Boykin Spartan Combat RTC 9
4 Nino Bonaccorsi Pittsburgh WC 9 (97)
5 Rocky Elam Tiger Style WC 6
6 Andy Smith SERTC NR
7 Isaac Trumble Wolfpack RTC NR
8 Tim Dudley New England RTC 5
9 Jake Woodley Oklahoma RTC 10
10 Willie Miklus Michigan WC NR
Quote from: littleguy301 on March 10, 2022, 11:28:11 AM
Quote from: onwisconsin on March 10, 2022, 10:05:44 AM
Quote from: Gutwrench on March 10, 2022, 10:02:12 AM
Kyle Snyder did pretty well at 97kg and Hwt in college. It's possible.
I 100% agree.
A beast is a beast. I think Braxton can be that good.
I also said on that. Looking at Braxtons results in high school and worlds he seems to be more suited for a heavier weight but that is just me.
A 225 weight class in college would fit Braxton to a tee but since we dont have it Braxton is a smaller HWT at this time. I also think part of him looking small at 197 is the fact he maybe a little sucked down.
I don't know if he's suited for a higher weight or not. He doesn't look particularly big for a 197...but watching him in the past(through Flo or Youtube) vs now, it seems like he's just lost a little confidence in the shot. I don't see the aggressive, attacking style that I've seen in the past. And I don't know that is really all that rare, is it?
I wasn't a highly touted prospect and I didn't Wrestle in the B1G, but at each level of Wrestling, that was always something I had to overcome. The mental aspect of it. He's Wrestling AA's almost every week...and if you start giving up points on your shots, it's natural that you're going to become a little more hesitant to shoot. However Cael does it, those guys seem to Wrestle with an almost careless attitude. "Sure, we'll give up 1, but we'll get it back if we keep shooting." There is a reason PSU has won 8 of the last 10 titles. It's not easy to get a kid to think like that.
From my perspective...that seems to be a bigger issue than his weight. That, and given that a year ago, after AJ Ferrari took the first step to becoming a possible 5-timer, there were discussions about who was better, he or Braxton Amos. That's a LOT to expect out of a Freshmen in the B1G. It also leads me to believe that maybe Amos needs to work on his squat! /s
Quote from: vsmf2010 on March 10, 2022, 09:26:56 PM
Quote from: mkm13 on March 10, 2022, 08:46:30 PM
Both Boykins were not great in folksyle either. Braxton would have a good chance of beating both right now at their peak in folkstyle.
The only big win I remembered was Dudley. His success was at lighter weights, so i am not sure what weight differemce their was. Either way that was an impressive win.
My point in this is Braxton is still young and has a lot of time to improve in college folkstyle and senior freestyle. I thibk he will.
Scottie Boykin is currently the 3rd ranked 92 Kg guy behind The Matrix and Nate Jackson so I think that would qualify him as a really good Freestyle wrestler.
RANK NAME CLUB PREVIOUS
1 J'den Cox OTC 1
2 Nate Jackson NJRTC 2
3 Scottie Boykin Spartan Combat RTC 9
4 Nino Bonaccorsi Pittsburgh WC 9 (97)
5 Rocky Elam Tiger Style WC 6
6 Andy Smith SERTC NR
7 Isaac Trumble Wolfpack RTC NR
8 Tim Dudley New England RTC 5
9 Jake Woodley Oklahoma RTC 10
10 Willie Miklus Michigan WC NR
I think we also need to clarify what "really good" means. He is "really good", but his ranking here is not surprising when looking at the list below him (non olympic weight and a lot of top guys either moved on or are at 86kg and 97 kg).
Keep in mind Braxton is in basically every match this year, he has just happened to lose every close match against the top guys in folkstyle. He is not far off from the top guys, the margin of error is just really small. He just needs to figure out how to come out how to come out on top. I think he will figure it out, he is still really young. It may be next weekend, it may be next year, or it may be several years.
Quote from: mkm13 on March 11, 2022, 07:21:57 AM
Quote from: vsmf2010 on March 10, 2022, 09:26:56 PM
Quote from: mkm13 on March 10, 2022, 08:46:30 PM
Both Boykins were not great in folksyle either. Braxton would have a good chance of beating both right now at their peak in folkstyle.
The only big win I remembered was Dudley. His success was at lighter weights, so i am not sure what weight differemce their was. Either way that was an impressive win.
My point in this is Braxton is still young and has a lot of time to improve in college folkstyle and senior freestyle. I thibk he will.
Scottie Boykin is currently the 3rd ranked 92 Kg guy behind The Matrix and Nate Jackson so I think that would qualify him as a really good Freestyle wrestler.
RANK NAME CLUB PREVIOUS
1 J'den Cox OTC 1
2 Nate Jackson NJRTC 2
3 Scottie Boykin Spartan Combat RTC 9
4 Nino Bonaccorsi Pittsburgh WC 9 (97)
5 Rocky Elam Tiger Style WC 6
6 Andy Smith SERTC NR
7 Isaac Trumble Wolfpack RTC NR
8 Tim Dudley New England RTC 5
9 Jake Woodley Oklahoma RTC 10
10 Willie Miklus Michigan WC NR
I think we also need to clarify what "really good" means. He is "really good", but his ranking here is not surprising when looking at the list below him (non olympic weight and a lot of top guys either moved on or are at 86kg and 97 kg).
Keep in mind Braxton is in basically every match this year, he has just happened to lose every close match against the top guys in folkstyle. He is not far off from the top guys, the margin of error is just really small. He just needs to figure out how to come out how to come out on top. I think he will figure it out, he is still really young. It may be next weekend, it may be next year, or it may be several years.
Not disputing any of that for sure. Cox is 1 and Boykin is 3 but there seems like a mile between them. Interesting though are the current college wrestlers on this list, Bonaccorsi, Elam, Trumble and Woodley. All below Boykin and guys I would have thought Braxton could beat this year and still do. You watch his matches and so many of them you feel like he is the better wrestler.
He does seem to lack some confidence based on what appears to me to be because of his lack of success in certain positions throughout the season. He does appear at times to be unsure. At the beginning of the season he seemed to shoot himself out of matches and now appears to be reluctant to pull the trigger. I have tremendous confidence in him and the coaches and every match I think he may turn the corner, get the key takedown or 2 that he needs and he will be off and running. I would have not been surprised at all if he would have beaten Hoffman and Schultz last weekend wrestling in the semis and knocking on the door. 197 is so physical that the matches are all so close. Of his 9 losses he has lost 3 in SV, 8-7, 3-1 (twice), 5-3, 6-2 and 8-3. Most or all of those he was in striking distance with 15 seconds to go. He will get there.
Quote from: Vir Fortis on March 10, 2022, 11:34:42 PM
Quote from: littleguy301 on March 10, 2022, 11:28:11 AM
Quote from: onwisconsin on March 10, 2022, 10:05:44 AM
Quote from: Gutwrench on March 10, 2022, 10:02:12 AM
Kyle Snyder did pretty well at 97kg and Hwt in college. It's possible.
I 100% agree.
A beast is a beast. I think Braxton can be that good.
I also said on that. Looking at Braxtons results in high school and worlds he seems to be more suited for a heavier weight but that is just me.
A 225 weight class in college would fit Braxton to a tee but since we dont have it Braxton is a smaller HWT at this time. I also think part of him looking small at 197 is the fact he maybe a little sucked down.
I don't know if he's suited for a higher weight or not. He doesn't look particularly big for a 197...but watching him in the past(through Flo or Youtube) vs now, it seems like he's just lost a little confidence in the shot. I don't see the aggressive, attacking style that I've seen in the past. And I don't know that is really all that rare, is it?
I wasn't a highly touted prospect and I didn't Wrestle in the B1G, but at each level of Wrestling, that was always something I had to overcome. The mental aspect of it. He's Wrestling AA's almost every week...and if you start giving up points on your shots, it's natural that you're going to become a little more hesitant to shoot. However Cael does it, those guys seem to Wrestle with an almost careless attitude. "Sure, we'll give up 1, but we'll get it back if we keep shooting." There is a reason PSU has won 8 of the last 10 titles. It's not easy to get a kid to think like that.
From my perspective...that seems to be a bigger issue than his weight. That, and given that a year ago, after AJ Ferrari took the first step to becoming a possible 5-timer, there were discussions about who was better, he or Braxton Amos. That's a LOT to expect out of a Freshmen in the B1G. It also leads me to believe that maybe Amos needs to work on his squat! /s
I definitely think you are on to something. My son and I were talking about how Cael and PSU have changed college wrestling. I do not remember as many teams wrestling with that "reckless abandon" that they wrestle with before he got there. I have watched interviews with DT, Nolf, Zain and others and they talk about how CS took the pressure off of them and encouraged them to just make a "game" out of it with game being just to score and win positions. They were able to wrestle with out the stress and pressure of winning and losing. Obviously they start with very talented wrestlers so that helps but they are not the only talented wrestlers.
I think when you look at Austin and DJ they employ a lot of those same things and one of the reasons why they are doing so well. The feeling is the more exchanges the better and "I am going to get where I am good, I will win those positions and score".
first question to be answered is does Trent come back for another year? I hear right now Trent ragdolls Braxton in practice, ok, maybe not ragdoll but dominates him. Now does Braxton putting on some pounds to get him to HWY change that? I don't know. HWY has changed a lot with these cut from HS football, athletic, fast guys with full tanks go at it. I know I am one that has been surprised BA has not had the success, win/loss, that I thought he was going to have. I hope he sticks with the Badgers and grows into college. I could see him move to just focusing on international.
Quote from: dad 2 5 on March 13, 2022, 12:44:48 PM
first question to be answered is does Trent come back for another year? I hear right now Trent ragdolls Braxton in practice, ok, maybe not ragdoll but dominates him. Now does Braxton putting on some pounds to get him to HWY change that? I don't know. HWY has changed a lot with these cut from HS football, athletic, fast guys with full tanks go at it. I know I am one that has been surprised BA has not had the success, win/loss, that I thought he was going to have. I hope he sticks with the Badgers and grows into college. I could see him move to just focusing on international.
Seems unlikely he'd quit College and just focus on Freestyle. It's one thing if you're a Greco Wrestler, but you'd be walking away from free training, school and access to the RTC without having to worry about much. And for what? His problem is primarily on his feet at the moment from what I can tell.
I also have little doubt Hillger can handle Amos in practice. I'd be pretty surprised if he couldn't. Hillger's a smaller, athletic HWT and has...what, 35 pounds on Amos? Maybe 25 in a normal practice, but he's a stud. 2X AA and his losses are almost all to top 10 HWTs in a year when the weight is particularly loaded.
As for Hillger coming back, his goal going into this season was to be a 2X National Champ...now barring Jeff Gillooly inserting himself into this situation and stationing himself outside of the Twin Cities, that's just not going to happen, but I suppose it does point toward what direction he may be leaning toward next year.
Quote from: Vir Fortis on March 13, 2022, 10:49:53 PM
As for Hillger coming back, his goal going into this season was to be a 2X National Champ...now barring Jeff Gillooly inserting himself into this situation and stationing himself outside of the Twin Cities, that's just not going to happen, but I suppose it does point toward what direction he may be leaning toward next year.
If I am reading this correctly, you are intimating that Steveson's presence is what is standing between Hillger and a title, much less two. While I have always been a fan of his, I would suggest that that "wall of barriers" standing between Thor and being a national champ is stacked about six or seven deep. He is going to have trouble simply getting to the podium this year, much less being among the top finishers - but hoping for the best and that he has a good tournament.
Quote from: npope on March 14, 2022, 07:16:53 AM
Quote from: Vir Fortis on March 13, 2022, 10:49:53 PM
As for Hillger coming back, his goal going into this season was to be a 2X National Champ...now barring Jeff Gillooly inserting himself into this situation and stationing himself outside of the Twin Cities, that's just not going to happen, but I suppose it does point toward what direction he may be leaning toward next year.
If I am reading this correctly, you are intimating that Steveson's presence is what is standing between Hillger and a title, much less two. While I have always been a fan of his, I would suggest that that "wall of barriers" standing between Thor and being a national champ is stacked about six or seven deep. He is going to have trouble simply getting to the podium this year, much less being among the top finishers - but hoping for the best and that he has a good tournament.
HWT is certainly a different beast than it was even 3 years ago. Trent did wrestle Cassioppi WAY better at Big Tens. Hoping that he is peaking and wrestles his best at NCAAs. As I posted in a different thread his path is difficult, but very doable to AA. Not many 17 seeds can say that they have beat or outplaced almost every guy that is in there path. Obviously minus Gable.