The number one debate on this forum relates to the coaching of the Wisconsin team. One way to judge (other than overall ranking) would be to judge the progress of the individual wrestlers. I am curious how people would characterize the growth/improvement of the individual wrestlers (as it relates to their performance and their hype coming into the program, etc).
For example: I believe Isaac Jordan's success is more a byproduct of his immense talent coming into the room (and previous training) than a result of the tweaking and improvement by the Wisconsin coaching staff. That being said, he has also not regressed through the years. Thus, I would conclude he's just meeting expectations.
Etc. I would love to see a weight class by weight class take on it...
They are improving at 125, 149, 184. 165 is self motivated but they haven't screwed him up.133 is not as good but that is due to injury and he still could get on the podium. 174 is not improving.
The question is, how will they be next year, with experience and talent at 125, 133, 149, 165, 174,184 and 285? Adding a couple of freshmen with potential, could Davis have the last laugh and have his best performance ever, say five all Americans and two champions?
Yes.
Next year is a long way off but 3 AAs one a champ, is a reasonable expectation. 125, 149, 174, and 184 potential RD of 12 guys and if you make it that far anything can happen.
Getting beat by a CMU team that is having a down year, can't be seen as a positive. Although a few guys wrestled well last night, the badgers should never lose that dual.
Where is Angry Fish, did he get in trouble again ??? ???
Quote from: Ivan Stankowski on February 19, 2016, 07:48:48 AM
Where is Angry Fish, did he get in trouble again ??? ???
I sent him a PM asking that same question. If I don't hear back (because he would be blocked from using that account) I think it would be safe to assume...
Quote from: lizard king on February 19, 2016, 07:18:45 AM
Getting beat by a CMU team that is having a down year, can't be seen as a positive. Although a few guys wrestled well last night, the badgers should never lose that dual.
CMU is 10-5 this year; 3-1 against Big Ten opponents; ranked around 18, depending on the poll. If that is a down year for them.... :o And Bucky is definitely in a down year for a couple of reasons. I guess I am just not overly surprised by their results. More to the point, I am disappointed that a couple of the Badgers simply aren't able to turn the corner and be better than average contributors in duals. I feel bad for those guys.
CMU is a good team just not as good as they were 5-10 years ago. It is a great program, Borelli is a coach that does the most with the least. It's pretty amazing what he has been able to do with that program coming from the MAC and competing against 3 other in-state D1 programs for recruits, two of which are in the B10.
I agree that CMU is a good program, I have watched many, many of their matches in the last 5 years and I believe they are not as strong this year. We are constantly reminded of the grind of the Big10, and how much better the Big10 is over the really weak MAC and other conferences, but then when the badgers lose to a CMU team who has been in the middle of that conference lately, then all of a sudden they are a strong team? The badgers should be able to beat them. No excuses.
Badgers definitely are not improving,wouldnt really say regressing either.Need to figure out how to get better Div1 caliber talent on the roster. ???
The 2012 recruiting class rankings
http://www.d1collegewrestling.net/Recruiting_Rankings2012.html
These guys would be seniors if they didn't RS
2013
http://www.d1collegewrestling.net/Recruiting_Rankings2013.html
2014
http://www.d1collegewrestling.net/Recruiting_Rankings2014.html
2015
http://www.d1collegewrestling.net/Recruiting_Rankings2015.html
Rankings don't mean a ton but can be used as a projection. UW recruiting classes were in the top 25 all but 1 of the last four years.
I know the jury is still out on a few guys but from those 4yrs how many guys have worked out?? ???
Quote from: coconut joe on February 19, 2016, 03:00:04 PM
here's some food for thought while we wait for next year...
Ryan Taylor leads the Badgers with 11 takedowns this season despite wrestling just four matches. That speaks volumes about UW's issues.
Wisconsin's 10 starters have scored 44 takedowns this season. They have given up 91.
Ryan Taylor (11-6), Isaac Jordan (9-1) and Brock Horwath (5-3) are the only UW starters to score more takedowns than they have allowed.
174-HWT as areas of concern. Those four starters have scored just 12 TDs and allowed 45 in 77 total matches.
Revisiting that Taylor stat, he has 11 of UW;s 44 takedowns. That means a guy with just 4 matches has 25 percent of the team's offense.
This was posted by someone else but it was sent to us and we found it interesting. Thoughts?
I would never consider myself a great wrestling mind but how does RT have a record of 11-6 and only 4 matches??? Are you only counting Big Ten matches?
Quote from: npope on February 19, 2016, 08:53:30 AM
Quote from: lizard king on February 19, 2016, 07:18:45 AM
Getting beat by a CMU team that is having a down year, can't be seen as a positive. Although a few guys wrestled well last night, the badgers should never lose that dual.
CMU is 10-5 this year; 3-1 against Big Ten opponents; ranked around 18, depending on the poll. If that is a down year for them.... :o And Bucky is definitely in a down year for a couple of reasons. I guess I am just not overly surprised by their results. More to the point, I am disappointed that a couple of the Badgers simply aren't able to turn the corner and be better than average contributors in duals. I feel bad for those guys.
Don't they have 5 seniors? that is half the team. I agree, I don't think they are having a down year.
I thought they listed RT as 5-4 after last night's win. As to improving, regressing, or staying the same. I think Crone is improving along with RC, JJ, and Brock. Others... Let's leave it at that. I know every team deals with injury but I know several of the guys are battling it. I think Trevor hit it on the head when he spoke about confidence a couple of weeks ago. Those guys that are improving and RT are guys that walk out on to the mat knowing they are getting their hand raised.
These stats must be referring to dual meets, or only Big Ten dual meets. Clearly if Jordan is 20-0 he has more than 9 takedowns, and we have more than 44 takedowns for the season as a team.
Since this must be referring to dual meets and we lost to Penn State, Iowa, Ohio State, and Nebraska by quite a bit, the numbers are not surprising. Would we like them to be better? Of course.
Overall, I think we have been showing a lot more fight lately. I like how we have had quite a few dual meets in February - I think this busy schedule helps our preparation for the Big Tens.
Zeke has stayed the same so far this year - unbeaten !
Quote from: dad 2 5 on February 19, 2016, 03:21:54 PM
Quote from: npope on February 19, 2016, 08:53:30 AM
Quote from: lizard king on February 19, 2016, 07:18:45 AM
Getting beat by a CMU team that is having a down year, can't be seen as a positive. Although a few guys wrestled well last night, the badgers should never lose that dual.
CMU is 10-5 this year; 3-1 against Big Ten opponents; ranked around 18, depending on the poll. If that is a down year for them.... :o And Bucky is definitely in a down year for a couple of reasons. I guess I am just not overly surprised by their results. More to the point, I am disappointed that a couple of the Badgers simply aren't able to turn the corner and be better than average contributors in duals. I feel bad for those guys.
Don't they have 5 seniors? that is half the team. I agree, I don't think they are having a down year.
They won the MAC 11 straight years from 2002-2012 this year they have lost 2 duals in the MAC already and still have ODU. To me this is a step back or a down year for them. During their run they had multiple AAs a year and a finalist every now and then, I don't see them getting an AA this year. Yes, some of this has to do with the addition of Mizzou, but they still aren't as good as they were just a few years ago.
This is a good read, didn't know Borelli wrestled at the Citadel.
http://www.cmuchippewas.com/sports/m-wrestl/mtt/tom_borrelli_903093.html
Micah, I think they have had several starter out during those losses. They still have potential to have a very high NCAA finish. But we are getting off topic of IRS. I am interested in seeing some of the young guys and how much they improve. Ritter, Martin, ES all look to have solid careers ahead of them.
I don't see them getting an AA this year.
CMU has a few guys that have a shot at being an All American.
It is certainly not a sure thing, but I predict that they get one AA. The kid that beat Crone
was a backup to start the season but has won 12 matches in
a row, according to the announcer. I sure hope the coach gives that kid a shot.
Jordan came into college no more talented than 50-75% of the starters on the top teams (Iowa, PSU, OSU, etc).
If Jordan's success is a byproduct of his talent coming in, you could say the same for 95% of the elite college wrestlers. The difference is PSU, OSU, and Iowa bring in 2 guys of that talent level every year. People can talk all they want about improving or regressing, but it is extremely uncommon for a high school kid to not come in as a top 100 recruit or struggle in the national high school tournaments and have success in the big 10.
For UW to get better, it will have to start with bringing in better talent.
Quote from: mkm13 on February 20, 2016, 07:40:18 AM
Jordan came into college no more talented than 50-75% of the starters on the top teams (Iowa, PSU, OSU, etc).
If Jordan's success is a byproduct of his talent coming in, you could say the same for 95% of the elite college wrestlers. The difference is PSU, OSU, and Iowa bring in 2 guys of that talent level every year. People can talk all they want about improving or regressing, but it is extremely uncommon for a high school kid to not come in as a top 100 recruit or struggle in the national high school tournaments and have success in the big 10.
For UW to get better, it will have to start with bringing in better talent.
So, coaching has obviously been essential to Zeke's success, given his lack of high-level practice partners.
Quote from: mkm13 on February 20, 2016, 07:40:18 AM
Jordan came into college no more talented than 50-75% of the starters on the top teams (Iowa, PSU, OSU, etc).
If Jordan's success is a byproduct of his talent coming in, you could say the same for 95% of the elite college wrestlers. The difference is PSU, OSU, and Iowa bring in 2 guys of that talent level every year. People can talk all they want about improving or regressing, but it is extremely uncommon for a high school kid to not come in as a top 100 recruit or struggle in the national high school tournaments and have success in the big 10.
For UW to get better, it will have to start with bringing in better talent.
The biggest difference I think that sets PSU apart from everyone is their ability to develop talent. Any team can have a top 5 recruiting class, the Badgers have had a few, but PSU under Cael never misses. Almost every single top guy they bring in hits. If they do miss on a guy or two they can take a guy like Conaway and turn him into a top 5 guy. The PSU team last year was their JV team outside a few guys and they were still a force. I also think Cael does a great job of managing his RS to put together teams in the future.
Getting top talent always helps but that is just 50% of the equation.
Quote from: Micah on February 20, 2016, 08:17:22 AM
Quote from: mkm13 on February 20, 2016, 07:40:18 AM
Jordan came into college no more talented than 50-75% of the starters on the top teams (Iowa, PSU, OSU, etc).
If Jordan's success is a byproduct of his talent coming in, you could say the same for 95% of the elite college wrestlers. The difference is PSU, OSU, and Iowa bring in 2 guys of that talent level every year. People can talk all they want about improving or regressing, but it is extremely uncommon for a high school kid to not come in as a top 100 recruit or struggle in the national high school tournaments and have success in the big 10.
For UW to get better, it will have to start with bringing in better talent.
The biggest difference I think that sets PSU apart from everyone is their ability to develop talent. Any team can have a top 5 recruiting class, the Badgers have had a few, but PSU under Cael never misses. Almost every single top guy they bring in hits. If they do miss on a guy or two they can take a guy like Conaway and turn him into a top 5 guy. The PSU team last year was their JV team outside a few guys and they were still a force. I also think Cael does a great job of managing his RS to put together teams in the future.
Getting top talent always helps but that is just 50% of the equation.
I agree and last year's psu team was better than any of Barry davis' teams.....ever. It amazes me that the level of acceptance hasn't gotten to the point that UW loses to central Michigan and nobody blinks an eye. Just another loss. What is bd's best dual win? The highest ranked team he has beaten? Our basketball coach beat #2 on the road for seven straight last week and he can't shake the interim title.
Quote from: Barou on February 20, 2016, 11:27:12 AM
It amazes me that the level of acceptance hasn't gotten to the point that UW loses to central Michigan and nobody blinks an eye.
A CMU team that was ranked 19th in the nation. So, evidently there is some quality there, or at least those doing the rankings think so. So the Badgers have a close loss to the number 19th ranked team in the nation. The basketball team lost to UW-Milwaukee and other similar power houses - and beaten some good teams, as well. You cherry-pick meets to highlight the "excellent" results of the BB team while ignoring the obvious stumbles. That hurts your argument's credibility. The wrestlers also beat the 16th ranked team (Rutgers) in a dual. Nobody was peeing in their pants about that and claiming that the Badgers "had arrived."
Yes, this year's wrestling team is nothing to write home about - got that. Check. These results aren't all that uncommon for the Badgers as of late. Got that, too. Check. At the end of the day, the coaching staff should be held accountable (if someone actually needs to be held accountable for the results of a collegiate athletic program that can't support itself...at virtually any institution) for the results. Got that also. Check.
I think everyone recognizes exactly who these Badger wrestlers are this year - a relatively average team in the bigger scheme of things; someone who can beat (or lose to) most any other team in the 25-15 range in the rankings. Would the fans like to see a better team on a regular basis? It would seem so - understandably. But this is not something new - it has been like this for a long time. So one more loss (or win) to an average team isn't something that is going to get the fan-base worked up into a frenzy. CMU isn't a bad team and this is not the straw that would break the proverbial camel's back.