What a shame

MNbadger · January 15, 2016, 02:13:58 PM

Very unfair to make a forfeit worth more than a fall. Not doable
I have always been in favor of blind draws. You can still forfeit but you can't move a wrestler.
We keep talking about duals. If you are short wrestlers maybe tournaments are a better venue for competition.
We are lamenting more forfeits while claiming more kids will compete if we have more duals. I think we have gone more and more to duals in the last twenty years. If duals encourage more participation why are we having the numbers issue?
I think going away from duals would increase participation. It is no fun for anyone going into a match knowing the outcome because you can only field 8, 10, 12 wrestlers. Decreasing weights will do little to change this. You can compete in individual tournaments and measure your success based on your placing as a team.

DocWrestling · January 15, 2016, 02:15:37 PM

The sport is the loser here. Your son still gets a victory and if they had wrestled that often in the past the result would have not likely been any different. There is no doubt of disappointment of a wrestler or a parent to train all week, make weight, and not get the chance to wrestle.

But what it really affects is the sport seen by those that are not diehard losers like all of us hanging out on a wrestling message board. The sport is not going to lose us. But it will lose others when he duals are half of the season and newbie wrestlers and parents just can't find the excitement in it all.

We lose those on the fringe already in the sport and we do not gain those thinking about joining.

I am just being honest in that duals have become pretty boring. Even if the matches are wrestled not many are all that competitive, another thing fewer weight classes would improve.

It is also why I think if we bring back JV which is greatly helped by fewer weight classes and then we should wrestle varsity and JV on side by side mats. The whole night is shorter and less drawn out and there is a lot more energy and fans in the building with two matches going on. Otherwise parents just come and go when there kid wrestles.

DocWrestling · January 15, 2016, 02:24:24 PM

I think the WIAA could help by not counting quadrangulars as multiple events. Bring in 4 teams and wrestle every team in a night on two mats. Add a 3rd mat for JV's to wrestle exhibitions. Make it worth while for travel. To do this then allow for more events like this but just put a max on number of matches allowed by a wrestler before regionals.

MarkK · January 15, 2016, 02:32:42 PM

Whatever happens. I'd like to see dual meets more often than tournaments. Dual meets used to be all we had except for a few tournaments. Full jv meets before the dual and a few matches that were neither jv or varsity. Of course we had 10 weights but the truth is we could have filled 14 easy. Jv and varsity. That day is gone. I know. Ticket sales for 14 weight classes and3 divisions makes it extremely hard to go back. The powers that be only get revenue from the tournament series and those are full at the championship level. Coaches have to make this happen. I like dual meets because your best wrestler can only score 6 points for your team and your worst can only lose 6. In between every has a part in making their team successful. When the outcome is already decided by forfeits. Nobody wins

Mack · January 15, 2016, 02:38:27 PM

Quote from: DocWrestling on January 15, 2016, 02:15:37 PM
The sport is the loser here. Your son still gets a victory and if they had wrestled that often in the past the result would have not likely been any different. There is no doubt of disappointment of a wrestler or a parent to train all week, make weight, and not get the chance to wrestle.

But what it really affects is the sport seen by those that are not diehard losers like all of us hanging out on a wrestling message board. The sport is not going to lose us. But it will lose others when he duals are half of the season and newbie wrestlers and parents just can't find the excitement in it all.

We lose those on the fringe already in the sport and we do not gain those thinking about joining.

I am just being honest in that duals have become pretty boring. Even if the matches are wrestled not many are all that competitive, another thing fewer weight classes would improve.

It is also why I think if we bring back JV which is greatly helped by fewer weight classes and then we should wrestle varsity and JV on side by side mats. The whole night is shorter and less drawn out and there is a lot more energy and fans in the building with two matches going on. Otherwise parents just come and go when there kid wrestles.

My take away from this comment is the part about the die hard losers hanging out on the wrestling message boards. This is what I've become. I was sort of in denial, but there it is.

OneEyedFatMan · January 15, 2016, 02:44:57 PM

Biggest shame of my coaching life was not wrestling a challenger who presumably had cut some weight to face our guy for a dual meet.
Yes, we won the dual but I felt lower than whale poop.
I had promised his parents that if he weighed in, I wouldn't wrestle him. Just using him for the forfeit.
My wrestler was ill.

My shame, for sure. I would never do it again.

buc65 · January 15, 2016, 04:01:11 PM

Quote from: missinghome on January 15, 2016, 09:30:44 AM
You guy's are cherry picking stuff out to make an excuse. I don't care how many different reasons you think you can find I was there I know why! If I could give more information on this I would but it would be taken off. I am not, nor have I ever questioned doing things to benefit the team or even for that matter the individual. On Tuesday he stayed at that weight and wrestled when he could have moved up 5 lbs to wrestle a very good wrestler. This time he doesn't wrestle. MN if your 60 no way did that happen in your day. Coaches have always moved guys around for the better of the team but never to just not have to wrestle someone. The point of this post was not to have people make excuses for what we all know is happening in wrestling, but to bring awareness so maybe a change will happen. How can things be changed? That is what this post was for. Am I frustrated? Oh yea, not just for the kid that didn't wrestle but for what it shows are sport has become. One more little piece to fill in the puzzle. This team can't win a duel meet because you have to give up 6 points for every forfeit. Do the math! And he did this in more then one match! Like i said "what a shame"

Maybe the opponent didn't want to get beat for the 13th time in 3 years. You said these kids have wrestled 12 times in the past 3 years and your kid has won every time. Is there any thing really wrong with not wanting to lose to the same opponent in a meaningless (already decided) dual? I don't think there is. Maybe the other kid and his coach feel that they will have a better chance at conference / regionals / sectionals, wherever it may be later in the season if they don't take a loss at this point in the season. It may be the right move on their part, or at least they think it is the right move on their part, to prepare that wrestler both mentally and physically for matches later in the season.

npope · January 15, 2016, 04:17:27 PM

Quote from: OneEyedFatMan on January 15, 2016, 02:44:57 PM
Biggest shame of my coaching life was not wrestling a challenger who presumably had cut some weight to face our guy for a dual meet.
Yes, we won the dual but I felt lower than whale poop.
I had promised his parents that if he weighed in, I wouldn't wrestle him. Just using him for the forfeit.
My wrestler was ill.

My shame, for sure. I would never do it again.

I think you are too hard on yourself (that comes from the Pope, Fish). There are reasons for not sending a kid out on the mat. The rationale for it isn't black and white - rather, it is shades of grey. At the extreme, I get it - dodging a guy for the sake of dodging doesn't help too many people. But to whom does a coach owe his first allegiance? His kid? The opponent? the audience? The sport of wrestling? As I mentioned earlier, I had a kid who wasn't very competitive as a freshman but we threw him to the wolves anyway because he was the best we had...and he ended up quitting. I don't think that was good for anyone. Knowing when to put a kid on the mat and not to do so it not always an easy decision.

OneEyedFatMan · January 15, 2016, 04:22:25 PM

Haha--good one!

Quote from: The Angry Fish on January 15, 2016, 04:15:31 PM
Quote from: OneEyedFatMan on January 15, 2016, 02:44:57 PM
Biggest shame of my coaching life was not wrestling a challenger who presumably had cut some weight to face our guy for a dual meet.
Yes, we won the dual but I felt lower than whale poop.
I had promised his parents that if he weighed in, I wouldn't wrestle him. Just using him for the forfeit.
My wrestler was ill.

My shame, for sure. I would never do it again.

Go see a priest and get a blessing homie. Works for me when I've got something gnawing at me. I once got punked out by some jerk in spandex. Guy was riding his mountain bike on the road and I almost hit him with my car. So I stop my vehicle and mouth off to this clown. Unintidated, this guy acts like he wants to throw hands? I almost killed the guy? He flew right out in front of me from the woods. I was in my mid 30's back then. This fool was in his 20's. Needless to say I backed down. I drove away feeling microscopic. The dude was wearing spandex in public,cyclist attire. I'm not accustomed to backing down in those situations. It's my stupid ego. After almost 20 years I still think about it. I want a do over, that jerk needed a smack in the mouth,and his bike thrown down a hill. Guess I'm going to see Father this weekend. I gotta let this go.

The only thought that gives me comfort is that I didn't take a beating from some smart mouthed punk wearing spandex.

woody53 · January 15, 2016, 04:54:09 PM

True story. The team I coached for many years. Wisconsin Heights. Had many down years before the District decided it was gone. We had a match that we could win, if us coaches were creative. we talked to the wrestlers about this. They were behind us to do what ever we could to win a match. We Won ! After it was over. I was proud of my team. They were not happy with the win. My wrestlers thought they cheated it. Never been more proud of my team, yet disappointed in myself.

MNbadger · January 15, 2016, 05:36:41 PM

"It would explain a lot."

Please, enlighten me.

missinghome · January 15, 2016, 05:47:23 PM

Amen Mr. Fish. And Buc65 then fine don't wrestle him. But then don't weigh in, don't shake his hand in introductions, and don't warm up on the side lines like you are going to wrestle, then once we send out a kid don't come out. Remember there was no way for them to win the duel with only 6 kids. Our kid had probably 20 people that came to see him wrestle from aunts and uncles to his 82 yr old Grandfather. If the coach is gonna do that then be man enough to say so before the match (yea like that would ever happen) but like AF said what lesson did that wrestler learn? I am surprised no one sees the irony in this coach only having 6 wrestlers out.

MNbadger · January 15, 2016, 06:30:43 PM

Man AF, you have many demons. Now it's people who wear spandex?! I happen to do so when I bike as well. Would you assume you can kick my rear end for this reason? I am assumng not.

MNbadger · January 15, 2016, 06:33:06 PM

I am still waiting for you to explain the comment about France..........
I don't want to make any assumptions about your intelligence until I am sure of your intent.

ramjet · January 15, 2016, 07:58:40 PM

Quote from: MNbadger on January 15, 2016, 06:30:43 PM
Man AF, you have many demons. Now it's people who wear spandex?! I happen to do so when I bike as well. Would you assume you can kick my rear end for this reason? I am assumng not.

Spandex is just bad stuff wore it one time riding a low racer recumbent went down on my rear at 32 MPH on the pavement that slide on my right cheek was something I will NEVER forget. OH yea it was not near as bad as the peroxide I asked my wife to pour on the wounded area. YEEEEEEEEEOOOOOOOOOOOO In the Walmart parking lot !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh yea that was not near as bad as two days later when it got worse and the nurse had to pick out the burned and melted spandex out of my rear. NEVER AGAIN COTTON man that is way better in fact Carharts that stuff skids a long ways before it gives way................

Tough guys bad drivers back down faster when you are wearing Carharts...........

MNbadger what's is more important individual development of any wrestler or the team win?