What a shame

[bigG]

I'm with you missinghome, the point is very clear that coach is telling you and everyone else that he is not a good enough coach or competent enough to get wrestlers ready to step on the mat. He has no faith in his abilities or in his wrestlers

The point is only clear if you think you know more than you do. If there is something else than your clarity is yours only and not in line with reality. Things get scary when "clear as day" doesn't jibe with reality. I believe there's a term for this.

Maybe Missinghome does live with the kid, or sees him every day. Maybe not. I dunno. I do know what is often times "obvious" turns out to be someone who thought they knew more than they really did.

[lizard king]

This has bothered me for years.   The problem is, there are good reasons and bad reasons.  Moving people to get the team win, good reason.  Forfeiting because you don't want the apposing team to get momentum, (I have been told that), I feel is a bad reason.   If you love the sport, you do "owe it to the fans" and "owe it to the sport".  At the same time you are not doing the sport any good when you make a kid quit.  But, you don't mind putting him out there to take a forfeit either?  I guess I am saying I do not know what the answer is but all coaches should do their very best to put kids on the mat.  When you have a very good kid, in some parts of the state he will be lucky to actually get 20 matches.

[Barou]

The purpose of a forum is for debate. I get that. We know the kid very well. We know the school very well. We know the coach very well. No injury and no sickness. We talked to people after the match. Also no freshman! And no first year wrestler. They have wrestled each other since about 4th grade. If you read my first post I stated he is HM in the rankings. His coach simply did not want him to lose.... period. Back in my day no one would ever have done this! My 2 cents worth on why it happens now is learned behavior. Here's why. And we all watch this happen. From kindergarten on, parents, coaches, and kids choose which tournament they go to, which weight they wrestle, and which level they put down. All great things that can make you better, or things you can use to manipulate the system. Don't go here because this kid might be there, put down beginner so you don't get the tough kid, move up or cut weight to avoid another 4th grader. It happens everyday. And now it has moved into the high schools.

I understand your frustration.  For what it's worth it happens in the college world as well all the way up to D1.  They do it "to protect the seed".

[missinghome]

You guy's are cherry picking stuff out to make an excuse. I don't care how many different reasons you think you can find I was there I know why! If I could give more information on this I would but it would be taken off. I am not, nor have I ever questioned doing things to benefit the team or even for that matter the individual. On Tuesday he stayed at that weight and wrestled when he could have moved up 5 lbs to wrestle a very good wrestler. This time he doesn't wrestle. MN if your 60 no way did that happen in your day. Coaches have always moved guys around for the better of the team but never to just not have to wrestle someone. The point of this post was not to have people make excuses for what we all know is happening in wrestling, but to bring awareness so maybe a change will happen. How can things be changed? That is what this post was for. Am I frustrated? Oh yea, not just for the kid that didn't wrestle but for what it shows are sport has become. One more little piece to fill in the puzzle. This team can't win a duel meet because you have to give up 6 points for every forfeit. Do the math! And he did this in more then one match!  Like i said "what a shame"

[ramjet]

You guy's are cherry picking stuff out to make an excuse. I don't care how many different reasons you think you can find I was there I know why! If I could give more information on this I would but it would be taken off. I am not, nor have I ever questioned doing things to benefit the team or even for that matter the individual. On Tuesday he stayed at that weight and wrestled when he could have moved up 5 lbs to wrestle a very good wrestler. This time he doesn't wrestle. MN if your 60 no way did that happen in your day. Coaches have always moved guys around for the better of the team but never to just not have to wrestle someone. The point of this post was not to have people make excuses for what we all know is happening in wrestling, but to bring awareness so maybe a change will happen. How can things be changed? That is what this post was for. Am I frustrated? Oh yea, not just for the kid that didn't wrestle but for what it shows are sport has become. One more little piece to fill in the puzzle. This team can't win a duel meet because you have to give up 6 points for every forfeit. Do the math! And he did this in more then one match!  Like i said "what a shame"

Well we can only react to the information posted we cannot speculate on the specific circumstances of this particular situation.

[MarkK]

It's called giving the benefit of the doubt after countless umpteen years of seeing this happen.  It is not cherry picking.  And yes it happened in the 80's too.   Statistically maybe it's more today.  I don't know.  But I've seen it for years and years.   Again it may be frustrating but having gone through that frustration and seeing the multiple reasons for it, it is best to leave it alone and and let them live with whatever reasons they have.   You certainly have to live with it too.   Frustrated not seeing the matches happen, I get it.  Questioning the motives is a lot harder.

[bkraus]

You guy's are cherry picking stuff out to make an excuse. I don't care how many different reasons you think you can find I was there I know why! If I could give more information on this I would but it would be taken off. I am not, nor have I ever questioned doing things to benefit the team or even for that matter the individual. On Tuesday he stayed at that weight and wrestled when he could have moved up 5 lbs to wrestle a very good wrestler. This time he doesn't wrestle. MN if your 60 no way did that happen in your day. Coaches have always moved guys around for the better of the team but never to just not have to wrestle someone. The point of this post was not to have people make excuses for what we all know is happening in wrestling, but to bring awareness so maybe a change will happen. How can things be changed? That is what this post was for. Am I frustrated? Oh yea, not just for the kid that didn't wrestle but for what it shows are sport has become. One more little piece to fill in the puzzle. This team can't win a duel meet because you have to give up 6 points for every forfeit. Do the math! And he did this in more then one match!  Like i said "what a shame"

Well we can only react to the information posted we cannot speculate on the specific circumstances of this particular situation.

Agreed 100%.  Don't come on here saying something, with partial information and claim "I know it all, you are all wrong."  If you want legitimate conversation, lay the cards on the table.  Otherwise you will get all the what ifs scenarios that could possibly happen.

[bigG]

It's called giving the benefit of the doubt after countless umpteen years of seeing this happen.  It is not cherry picking.  And yes it happened in the 80's too.   Statistically maybe it's more today.  I don't know.  But I've seen it for years and years.   Again it may be frustrating but having gone through that frustration and seeing the multiple reasons for it, it is best to leave it alone and and let them live with whatever reasons they have.   You certainly have to live with it too.   Frustrated not seeing the matches happen, I get it.  Questioning the motives is a lot harder.

I'll back you on the 80's thing. I remember is like yesterday. I don't remember too much from yesterday, though. Selective memory.

How many times in our lives are we certain of something, only to learn our certainty was not the truth.

I know I've eaten enough crow to know not to jump to conclusions. But, I'm sure I'll screw up again. Human nature.

As the only counselor in a small town district, I can tell the "certain" stuff happens every day; and very frequently the certainty is confident speculation that may brush against reality; but often with important details missing.

Put all the exclamation points you want on it. Just means you're THAT certain. Doesn't make you right, though. Doesn't make you wrong; but sure doesn't make you right.

[MarkK]

Fish, I think it really depends.  Maybe the lesson is you live to fight another day.  Maybe the lesson is it is better to win the war than to win the battle.  Maybe the lesson is I value your health more than you do at this time.   Assuming there is no good reason to forfeit you are right you are not teaching a good lesson.   There is a lot to be learned from wrestling even when you are pretty certain you are going to lose.  I don't remember losing to too many people more than once.  I made the most of my losses so that in the end most of my losses allowed me to win in the end.  Sometimes that win wasn't a raised hand in victory.  You learn a lot about yourself.  You do learn that in the face of adversity you sometimes face it regardless of the outcome.  Bravery is often defined by that.   I respect that. 

I think, however, most of the pushback has been we can jump to a lot of conclusions as to why a coach, team, parent, athlete would forfeit a match.  Sometimes instead of accusing the opponent of negative motives it might be wiser to consider there may be extenuating circumstances.  That is what I take from it.   From another perspective ultimately you can run but you can't hide.  Unless of course you change weight classes for regionals. 

[MNbadger]

"That's commie talk. I don't think it, and I don't speak it. "

Seriously? 

Many, many coaches (coaches you are fans of) and coaches better than many of us forfeit for many reasons.  Enough of the blustering. 

[MarkK]

Fish, I think it really depends.  Maybe the lesson is you live to fight another day.  Maybe the lesson is it is better to win the war than to win the battle. 

That's commie talk. I don't think it, and I don't speak it.

Sorry Senator McCarthy I am not now nor have I ever been a member of the Communist Party.

[Jzelinski]

I wrestled in the mid 90's and I was forfeited to a lot for all the reasons above and probably a few more... So nothing new... Why let this chap your hide? take it as a compliment and move on.

[DocWrestling]

My impression is that the team part of wrestling is slowly dying and is much different than the 80's.  Because of this wrestling is hurting for fans at duals.  The forfeits have always happened to great wrestlers.   The better the wrestler the more forfeits they are likely to earn.

- There is a low percentage of duals where the outcome is not known.  Things like I heard about last night do not occur where an 0-14 hockey team beat a 14-0 hockey team.  Even when it is not an upset many basketball or hockey games are "competitive".
- With too many weight classes, many matches are not wrestled and/or "marquee" matches are not wrestled.

Because of the above many parents do not make the drive to away meets.  If you have a great wrestler then it is likely he may not wrestle or will just pin some kid in 1 minute.  If you have a marginal wrestler, he might just get pinned quickly?  Simply the unknown keeps fans/parents away.  Parents are most interested in their own kid rather than the team.

What is my solution?
1) Fewer weight classes- getting drastic like 10 might even be a good number for duals (have 14 for big tournaments)-  a) Increased chances of a team having all weight classes filled and with varsity level wrestlers, b) larger lb difference between weight classes so less likely to move around wrestlers, c) could have competitive JV matches also with a team aspect.
2) Go to a blind draw-  Coaches submit their lineups blindly to official after they have seen everyone weigh in.  No moving around then.  If you weighed in a guy at the weight class, he must wrestle or it costs you 8 team points or something rather than 6 points.

In the end I think you end up with better competition and better matches which means a better experience for wrestlers and fans and helps improve the sport.  Wrestling is not going to grow as just an individual sport.  Kids will join to be part of a team and more fans will come to watch a team!

I know this will probably hijack this thread but 10 weight classes like this would likely be doable by a great majority of teams (dropping one weight class to 13 is not going to make much difference),  115, 125, 135, 145, 155, 165, 175, 190, 210, 285.  For JV's I would reduce every weight class by 5 lbs.  Get rid of growth allowance and extra pounds for consecutive days.  You make those weight classes scratch every time you get on scale.

[ramjet]

"That's commie talk. I don't think it, and I don't speak it. "

Seriously? 

Many, many coaches (coaches you are fans of) and coaches better than many of us forfeit for many reasons.  Enough of the blustering. 

Where'd you wrestle MNBadger? France?

 

[MarkK]

My impression is that the team part of wrestling is slowly dying and is much different than the 80's.  Because of this wrestling is hurting for fans at duals.  The forfeits have always happened to great wrestlers.   The better the wrestler the more forfeits they are likely to earn.

- There is a low percentage of duals where the outcome is not known.  Things like I heard about last night do not occur where an 0-14 hockey team beat a 14-0 hockey team.  Even when it is not an upset many basketball or hockey games are "competitive".
- With too many weight classes, many matches are not wrestled and/or "marquee" matches are not wrestled.

Because of the above many parents do not make the drive to away meets.  If you have a great wrestler then it is likely he may not wrestle or will just pin some kid in 1 minute.  If you have a marginal wrestler, he might just get pinned quickly?  Simply the unknown keeps fans/parents away.  Parents are most interested in their own kid rather than the team.

What is my solution?
1) Fewer weight classes- getting drastic like 10 might even be a good number for duals (have 14 for big tournaments)-  a) Increased chances of a team having all weight classes filled and with varsity level wrestlers, b) larger lb difference between weight classes so less likely to move around wrestlers, c) could have competitive JV matches also with a team aspect.
2) Go to a blind draw-  Coaches submit their lineups blindly to official after they have seen everyone weigh in.  No moving around then.  If you weighed in a guy at the weight class, he must wrestle or it costs you 8 team points or something rather than 6 points.

In the end I think you end up with better competition and better matches which means a better experience for wrestlers and fans and helps improve the sport.  Wrestling is not going to grow as just an individual sport.  Kids will join to be part of a team and more fans will come to watch a team!

I know this will probably hijack this thread but 10 weight classes like this would likely be doable by a great majority of teams (dropping one weight class to 13 is not going to make much difference),  115, 125, 135, 145, 155, 165, 175, 190, 210, 285.  For JV's I would reduce every weight class by 5 lbs.  Get rid of growth allowance and extra pounds for consecutive days.  You make those weight classes scratch every time you get on scale.

Oh great. Now all the junior high inclusion mafia are going to come outta the woodwork. 

BTW.  I agrree