D2 Sectional Imbalance Redux

[Houndhead]

Unless somebody is willing to come up with a plan as Luke suggested, this is a waste of time. The imbalance is not that big. The SW sectional is down this year, but has traditionally been the same as the NW, with the NE being slightly stronger. I say seed the top 4 teams in each sectional and put them in different regionals. D2#195  there were no place winners from the NE. Do you hear the other sectionals crying that it is not fair for 4th place Timmy to sit home?

[thequad]

At least we could go to a super regional!

[FoldEmUp]

I've said it before the NE is a great area for WI wrestling, probably the best. That doesn't mean they should just get 7 guys to state from every weight. The state tournament is about crowning a champion. They give medals out to other places yes, but the goal is to find the champion. If you got 3rd at regionals or 4th at sectionals, you had your chance vs your areas competition. The other area kids work hard too and CARE about making that trip just as much as the NE, and to come on here and say they aren't deserving because they're from the "other" sectionals is just wrong.

This is why the WIAA has such difficult for WIAA to make changes whether it is changing regionals or conferences.  There is always a lack of parity and some kids are getting screwed from the state tournament experience in NE Wisconsin and thus others are getting a much easier path.  Those with the easier path or benefits of geography will fight this to the end.  Tough for everyone to look out for the good of the sport.  Many other sports have made that change with seeding and caring less about geography but wrestling always seems to be the last to react.  The same issues with D3 regionals in the North where they barely get enough wrestlers but those schools with the benefit love it

It seems to me that what advocates are really promoting is effectively seeding the entire state, prior to Regionals.  Reality is that plenty of kids from the "lesser" areas of the state defeat those from the "preferred" areas.  To what extent is it fair to engineer the entire state tournament series with the express purpose of advancing more kids from a particular region?  Has anyone considered the potential impact on the sport elsewhere?  Sorry, but there will be fluctuations, over time.  Some individual regional and sectional brackets will always be loaded, regardless of geography.  Outcomes will not be guaranteed.  What should we do, seed each weight class statewide and reassign individual wrestlers accordingly?  You can't consistently engineer outcomes, without harming the sport, in my opinion.

I don't think anyone here is saying there is a perfect answer but rather that things can certainly be done more equitably.  I proposed simply looking at the historical quality of teams over a 5-10 year period so there aren't rapid fluctuations.  There are teams in the southern portion of the Wrightstown Sectional (namely Freedom, Wrightstown, Two Rivers, Denmark, etc.) that have sustained quality programs and there are teams in the northern portion of the Campbellsport Sectional that have had historically much less success (St. Lawrence Seminary, New Holstein, etc.) and merely switching two of the prior teams with two of the latter could do a lot in terms of balancing things out considering that the Wrightstown Sectional is the strongest and Campbellsport Sectional the weakest year in and year out.  Right now the imbalance is horrendous and needs to be addressed.  That's a pretty simple fix to make things a lot better and doesn't require much change or engineering.  Everything else stays the same. Geography can't be the sole determinant.  That's a simple rule that's easy to follow, but it is also a lazy one.  They should make exceptions to draw boundaries that aren't necessarily squares, but are flexible like political districts.  It will never be perfect, but it can be better and needs to be.

[FoldEmUp]

Unless somebody is willing to come up with a plan as Luke suggested, this is a waste of time. The imbalance is not that big. The SW sectional is down this year, but has traditionally been the same as the NW, with the NE being slightly stronger. I say seed the top 4 teams in each sectional and put them in different regionals. D2#195  there were no place winners from the NE. Do you hear the other sectionals crying that it is not fair for 4th place Timmy to sit home?

I have the data over the past 5-6 years to add to the data I posted here from this year that proves that wrong. (http://wiwrestling.info/index.php?topic=52316.0)  Oconto Falls is now Wrightstown and Cedar-Grove Belgium is now Campbellsport.

It isn't just a blip in the radar.  The imbalance in D2 between the best performing sectional (Wrightstown) and the worst performing sectional (Campbellsport) at state is astronomical.

[ramjet]

I've said it before the NE is a great area for WI wrestling, probably the best. That doesn't mean they should just get 7 guys to state from every weight. The state tournament is about crowning a champion. They give medals out to other places yes, but the goal is to find the champion. If you got 3rd at regionals or 4th at sectionals, you had your chance vs your areas competition. The other area kids work hard too and CARE about making that trip just as much as the NE, and to come on here and say they aren't deserving because they're from the "other" sectionals is just wrong.

This is why the WIAA has such difficult for WIAA to make changes whether it is changing regionals or conferences.  There is always a lack of parity and some kids are getting screwed from the state tournament experience in NE Wisconsin and thus others are getting a much easier path.  Those with the easier path or benefits of geography will fight this to the end.  Tough for everyone to look out for the good of the sport.  Many other sports have made that change with seeding and caring less about geography but wrestling always seems to be the last to react.  The same issues with D3 regionals in the North where they barely get enough wrestlers but those schools with the benefit love it

Until they get on the mat at Sectionals and pinned in 20 seconds then it's not so fun....

[Houndhead]

I've said it before the NE is a great area for WI wrestling, probably the best. That doesn't mean they should just get 7 guys to state from every weight. The state tournament is about crowning a champion. They give medals out to other places yes, but the goal is to find the champion. If you got 3rd at regionals or 4th at sectionals, you had your chance vs your areas competition. The other area kids work hard too and CARE about making that trip just as much as the NE, and to come on here and say they aren't deserving because they're from the "other" sectionals is just wrong.

This is why the WIAA has such difficult for WIAA to make changes whether it is changing regionals or conferences.  There is always a lack of parity and some kids are getting screwed from the state tournament experience in NE Wisconsin and thus others are getting a much easier path.  Those with the easier path or benefits of geography will fight this to the end.  Tough for everyone to look out for the good of the sport.  Many other sports have made that change with seeding and caring less about geography but wrestling always seems to be the last to react.  The same issues with D3 regionals in the North where they barely get enough wrestlers but those schools with the benefit love it

It seems to me that what advocates are really promoting is effectively seeding the entire state, prior to Regionals.  Reality is that plenty of kids from the "lesser" areas of the state defeat those from the "preferred" areas.  To what extent is it fair to engineer the entire state tournament series with the express purpose of advancing more kids from a particular region?  Has anyone considered the potential impact on the sport elsewhere?  Sorry, but there will be fluctuations, over time.  Some individual regional and sectional brackets will always be loaded, regardless of geography.  Outcomes will not be guaranteed.  What should we do, seed each weight class statewide and reassign individual wrestlers accordingly?  You can't consistently engineer outcomes, without harming the sport, in my opinion.

I don't think anyone here is saying there is a perfect answer but rather that things can certainly be done more equitably.  I proposed simply looking at the historical quality of teams over a 5-10 year period so there aren't rapid fluctuations.  There are teams in the southern portion of the Wrightstown Sectional (namely Freedom, Wrightstown, Two Rivers, Denmark, etc.) that have sustained quality programs and there are teams in the northern portion of the Campbellsport Sectional that have had historically much less success (St. Lawrence Seminary, New Holstein, etc.) and merely switching two of the prior teams with two of the latter could do a lot in terms of balancing things out considering that the Wrightstown Sectional is the strongest and Campbellsport Sectional the weakest year in and year out.  Right now the imbalance is horrendous and needs to be addressed.  That's a pretty simple fix to make things a lot better and doesn't require much change or engineering.  Everything else stays the same. Geography can't be the sole determinant.  That's a simple rule that's easy to follow, but it is also a lazy one.  They should make exceptions to draw boundaries that aren't necessarily squares, but are flexible like political districts.  It will never be perfect, but it can be better and needs to be.

Now here is an actual plan instead of just whining.

[ramjet]

Here's another way of looking at it:  Do all geographic areas have the same depth of talent, on an annual basis?  If not, then how do you propose the WIAA fixes that imbalance?

Certainly not easy or simple. However sending wrestlers who are not ready for high level of those Sectionals talent pool is a total injustice to those who can compete but get left out because of the Regional structure.

It's really not geographic when you have teams from western or west central Wisconsin traveling long distances to be in the Bonduel Sectional. It can and should be restructured.



If there is a will there is a way but I do not think there is a will to try.

What teams from the western part of the state are traveling to Bonduel? Pittsville is the geographical center of the state. I can't think of any teams west of there going to Bonduel.

.

West central look at travel time Stratford to Bonduel . Why the geographic locations and placement may be blue to be tweeked so you are not stacking a sectional so to speak.

One hour and 34 minutes from Stratford to Bonduel. Chequamegon traveled 3 hours to get to the Independence sectional.

How far is Stratford from the other sectionals?

One hour and fifty three minutes to Independence.

So you know I am ok with that sectional it is one of the deepest and competitive in the State. The Regionals however building up to it are really lame. But then part of the issue overall is the decline of wrestling. But thanks to Mother Nature perhaps we will see more athletes involved in Greco/FS ? Because golf and baseball and softball might be a little later this year. 

[FoldEmUp]

I've said it before the NE is a great area for WI wrestling, probably the best. That doesn't mean they should just get 7 guys to state from every weight. The state tournament is about crowning a champion. They give medals out to other places yes, but the goal is to find the champion. If you got 3rd at regionals or 4th at sectionals, you had your chance vs your areas competition. The other area kids work hard too and CARE about making that trip just as much as the NE, and to come on here and say they aren't deserving because they're from the "other" sectionals is just wrong.

This is why the WIAA has such difficult for WIAA to make changes whether it is changing regionals or conferences.  There is always a lack of parity and some kids are getting screwed from the state tournament experience in NE Wisconsin and thus others are getting a much easier path.  Those with the easier path or benefits of geography will fight this to the end.  Tough for everyone to look out for the good of the sport.  Many other sports have made that change with seeding and caring less about geography but wrestling always seems to be the last to react.  The same issues with D3 regionals in the North where they barely get enough wrestlers but those schools with the benefit love it

It seems to me that what advocates are really promoting is effectively seeding the entire state, prior to Regionals.  Reality is that plenty of kids from the "lesser" areas of the state defeat those from the "preferred" areas.  To what extent is it fair to engineer the entire state tournament series with the express purpose of advancing more kids from a particular region?  Has anyone considered the potential impact on the sport elsewhere?  Sorry, but there will be fluctuations, over time.  Some individual regional and sectional brackets will always be loaded, regardless of geography.  Outcomes will not be guaranteed.  What should we do, seed each weight class statewide and reassign individual wrestlers accordingly?  You can't consistently engineer outcomes, without harming the sport, in my opinion.

I don't think anyone here is saying there is a perfect answer but rather that things can certainly be done more equitably.  I proposed simply looking at the historical quality of teams over a 5-10 year period so there aren't rapid fluctuations.  There are teams in the southern portion of the Wrightstown Sectional (namely Freedom, Wrightstown, Two Rivers, Denmark, etc.) that have sustained quality programs and there are teams in the northern portion of the Campbellsport Sectional that have had historically much less success (St. Lawrence Seminary, New Holstein, etc.) and merely switching two of the prior teams with two of the latter could do a lot in terms of balancing things out considering that the Wrightstown Sectional is the strongest and Campbellsport Sectional the weakest year in and year out.  Right now the imbalance is horrendous and needs to be addressed.  That's a pretty simple fix to make things a lot better and doesn't require much change or engineering.  Everything else stays the same. Geography can't be the sole determinant.  That's a simple rule that's easy to follow, but it is also a lazy one.  They should make exceptions to draw boundaries that aren't necessarily squares, but are flexible like political districts.  It will never be perfect, but it can be better and needs to be.

Now here is an actual plan instead of just whining.

There is more coming in terms of a google maps plot of a new configuration (for most there are no changes at all) and the logic (research) behind it.  Stay tuned.

[DocWrestling]

I agree the teams and depth fluctuate over time so why not just keep changing it over time?

I think even mixing it up even more would add excitement for the sport as regionals or even sectionals would not be the same rematches from regular season and conference season.  With regionals and geography so many of the matches are the same ones that were wrestled even back in 6th grade.

Basketball teams are excited when in the post season they get to go compete against someone out of conference and out of region.

[Houndhead]

I am also in favor of eliminating regionals and just having a Super sectional.

[ramjet]

I am also in favor of eliminating regionals and just having a Super sectional.

Exactly some conferences are looking at getting rid of the Conference tournaments because they wrestle the same guys two weekends in a row. Seems that weekend could be recovery or seek out an out of conference tournament.