WIAA Eligibility Question

[stbird]

Would it also be legal to fat test a kid at every weight to have them available to take forfeits even if they don't participate in a single practice the entire year and don't know how to wrestle? 

[bulldog]

Would it also be legal to fat test a kid at every weight to have them available to take forfeits even if they don't participate in a single practice the entire year and don't know how to wrestle? 

Well based on the rule (or lack thereof)...sure. I have not looked at the rule book myself yet. I find it amazing if the WIAA does not address this topic.

[bigG]

Ethics issue; but not a legal one, me thinks. Hard to prove that a kid is not medically cleared. The burden of proof would be on the third party. HIPAA will be the blockade.

[npope]

Ethics issue; but not a legal one, me thinks. Hard to prove that a kid is not medically cleared. The burden of proof would be on the third party. HIPAA will be the blockade.

That's a good point, but the NFL seems to trample all over HIPAA.

While a long time ago, I broke my hand in the fall of my senior year and the school wouldn't let me on the mat until a doctor "cleared" me. Now, I don't exactly know what "cleared" means nor do I know whether the barrier came at the school level or the WIAA level. But I do know that my coach would have likely fought any such barriers if they weren't formal rules. But again, a long time ago.

[bulldog]

Ethics issue; but not a legal one, me thinks. Hard to prove that a kid is not medically cleared. The burden of proof would be on the third party. HIPAA will be the blockade.

HIPPA? I could see maybe but the school requires a pass for a concussion test. No HIPPA issues on that. And I don't think it would be a HIPPA issue if the school (and WIAA) require a medical release on file to be able to return to practice and/or competition. Kid has to pass a physical to be elegible to compete in HS sports. No HIPPA issues regarding that.

My kid got injured and the school required a note from the doctor that stated he was cleared to return. So I don't think HIPPA comes into play. And "cleared"...IMO is twofold 1) a medical doctor has signed off on return to activity and 2) the athlete can compete without limitations.

If the athlete can't compete in a match then he shouldn't be lined up to receive a forfeit. Say it a different way...what would happen if the kid walked up to the table to receive a forfeit and the opposing coach sent out somebody they didn't line up but did weigh in at the weight class. If the wrestler would then have to forfeit he shouldn't have been there in the first place.

I agree...it is an ethics thing (now) but if this is being done then the WIAA should set the standards. I read the rule book last night. It is surprising how little the rules address actual athlete health beyond a nod to hydration and illegal holds.

[kneeslide]

If a wrestler is ineligible for any reason they are not allowed to weigh in or accept a forfeit.  This includes being being medically cleared.  Thus if a wrestler is not medically cleared they are ineligible.  This can be found in the winter season regulations on the wiaa website.  Following copied from the WIAA season regulations: 

"d. In addition, during the regular season and tournament series, wrestlers who are ineligible (for any reason) may not participate
in pre-meet warm-ups or any pre-meet activity, including weigh-ins, during the period of ineligibility. Violation of this
provision will result in the deletion of all individual and team points for that weight class and the wrestler will be subject to
suspension as outlined in 8.a."

Good luck to everyone the rest of the season

[bigG]

If a wrestler is ineligible for any reason they are not allowed to weigh in or accept a forfeit.  This includes being being medically cleared.  Thus if a wrestler is not medically cleared they are ineligible.  This can be found in the winter season regulations on the wiaa website.  Hope this helps. 
Good luck to everyone the rest of the season

How can one prove either medically unclear to begin with or not yet cleared as the issue progresses?

Not trying to be a jerk; but I deal with HIPAA enough at my job that it can be obstructive to cleaning up this ethics issue.

[kneeslide]

If a wrestler is ineligible for any reason they are not allowed to weigh in or accept a forfeit.  This includes being being medically cleared.  Thus if a wrestler is not medically cleared they are ineligible.  This can be found in the winter season regulations on the wiaa website.  Hope this helps. 
Good luck to everyone the rest of the season

How can one prove either medically unclear to begin with or not yet cleared as the issue progresses?

Not trying to be a jerk; but I deal with HIPAA enough at my job that it can be obstructive to cleaning up this ethics issue.

I would think that you would report it to the athletic director and the WIAA and if it is proven that they are not medically cleared then they would deduct the team points earned by the ineligible wrestler.  As a referee we do not get involved.  We would not ask for the medical clearance papers as we just weigh in the wrestlers and assume everyone is eligible based on the coach's confirmation.

[imwi]

If a wrestler is ineligible for any reason they are not allowed to weigh in or accept a forfeit.  This includes being being medically cleared.  Thus if a wrestler is not medically cleared they are ineligible.  This can be found in the winter season regulations on the wiaa website.  Following copied from the WIAA season regulations: 

"d. In addition, during the regular season and tournament series, wrestlers who are ineligible (for any reason) may not participate
in pre-meet warm-ups or any pre-meet activity, including weigh-ins, during the period of ineligibility. Violation of this
provision will result in the deletion of all individual and team points for that weight class and the wrestler will be subject to
suspension as outlined in 8.a."

Good luck to everyone the rest of the season

The section you cut & pasted is under
8. FLAGRANT OR UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT AND INELIGIBLE ATHLETES

I don't see anything in those regs about being medically cleared other than in the concussion section.

I agree that it's unethical but I don't see a regulation, which is the issue when you try to regulate ethics.

[kneeslide]

If a wrestler is ineligible for any reason they are not allowed to weigh in or accept a forfeit.  This includes being being medically cleared.  Thus if a wrestler is not medically cleared they are ineligible.  This can be found in the winter season regulations on the wiaa website.  Following copied from the WIAA season regulations:

"d. In addition, during the regular season and tournament series, wrestlers who are ineligible (for any reason) may not participate
in pre-meet warm-ups or any pre-meet activity, including weigh-ins, during the period of ineligibility. Violation of this
provision will result in the deletion of all individual and team points for that weight class and the wrestler will be subject to
suspension as outlined in 8.a."

Good luck to everyone the rest of the season

The section you cut & pasted is under
8. FLAGRANT OR UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT AND INELIGIBLE ATHLETES

I don't see anything in those regs about being medically cleared other than in the concussion section.

I agree that it's unethical but I don't see a regulation, which is the issue when you try to regulate ethics.

Look at the statement that I cut and pasted.  It states "wrestlers who are ineligible (for any reason) may not participate".  This includes all INELIGIBLE ATHLETES for any reason.  If they are not medically cleared then they are ineligible.

[imwi]

That's your interpretation,  which is my point, it's not specifically stated anywhere, we (the good guys) are all just saying that's the way it should be.  I'm not disagreeing that he should be ineligible, I'm just saying that it's not stated in any of the regs.  I took "ineligible" in that context to mean code violation or something similar since it's in with Flagrant Misconducts.


8. FLAGRANT OR UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT AND INELIGIBLE ATHLETES

a. A student, disqualified from a contest for flagrant or unsportsmanlike conduct, is suspended from interscholastic
competition for no less than the next competitive event (but not less than one complete game or meet).

b. Athletes who are ineligible during the WIAA Tournament (for any reason) may not appear in uniform, participate in warm-ups,
and may not participate in the awards ceremony at the WIAA Tournament. Exception: An injured athlete will be allowed to
participate in the awards ceremony provided he/she is included in the roster allotment for that game. During the regular season,
schools should establish their own policy as to whether athletes are allowed to be in uniform and participate in pregame and
postgame activity, if they are ineligible to compete due to flagrant and/or unsportsmanlike conduct, athletic and/or academic
code violations, or for any other reason.

c. Any player who in the judgment of the official, intentionally spits on, strikes, slaps, kicks, pushes or aggressively physically
contacts an official at any time shall be immediately ineligible for competition a minimum of 90 calendar days from the date
of the confrontation. In addition, the player is ineligible to compete for the first 25% of the next season in that same sport.

d. In addition, during the regular season and tournament series, wrestlers who are ineligible (for any reason) may not participate
in pre-meet warm-ups or any pre-meet activity, including weigh-ins, during the period of ineligibility. Violation of this
provision will result in the deletion of all individual and team points for that weight class and the wrestler will be subject to
suspension as outlined in 8.a.

[bulldog]

If a wrestler is ineligible for any reason they are not allowed to weigh in or accept a forfeit.  This includes being being medically cleared.  Thus if a wrestler is not medically cleared they are ineligible.  This can be found in the winter season regulations on the wiaa website.  Hope this helps. 
Good luck to everyone the rest of the season

How can one prove either medically unclear to begin with or not yet cleared as the issue progresses?

Not trying to be a jerk; but I deal with HIPAA enough at my job that it can be obstructive to cleaning up this ethics issue.

BigG...nope, you raise a valid point. HIPAA is very touchy about what you can and cannot do. I spent a time dealing with medical records and your hands were tied very tightly. But a parent can sign off on releasing the information to a school/trainer/coach/athletic director. I am not saying you need to give all the information but simply ask for a "medically cleared to compete" form from a doctor once the injured athlete is cleared.

I am actually surprised that schools do not require this to cover their own butts. Say my kid breaks something. My kid tells the coach he is clear (before he really should be). The coach puts him back in the line-up and he gets re-injured. Who is responsible?

The parent? Nope...parent didn't tell the coach anything

The kid? Nope...he is a minor. He can't make a decision based on his health as a minor.

The coach? Probably somewhat...

The school? That is who the lawyers (and maybe insurance companies) are going to go after

Why wouldn't a school cover their butts by simply having a release on file that the athlete has been cleared to compete? I am not an expert but I don't think that would infringe on any HIPPA laws.

[imwi]

Does your school know every athlete that gets injured?

[oneshot]

That's your interpretation,  which is my point, it's not specifically stated anywhere, we (the good guys) are all just saying that's the way it should be.  I'm not disagreeing that he should be ineligible, I'm just saying that it's not stated in any of the regs.  I took "ineligible" in that context to mean code violation or something similar since it's in with Flagrant Misconducts.


8. FLAGRANT OR UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT AND INELIGIBLE ATHLETES

a. A student, disqualified from a contest for flagrant or unsportsmanlike conduct, is suspended from interscholastic
competition for no less than the next competitive event (but not less than one complete game or meet).

b. Athletes who are ineligible during the WIAA Tournament (for any reason) may not appear in uniform, participate in warm-ups,
and may not participate in the awards ceremony at the WIAA Tournament. Exception: An injured athlete will be allowed to
participate in the awards ceremony provided he/she is included in the roster allotment for that game. During the regular season,
schools should establish their own policy as to whether athletes are allowed to be in uniform and participate in pregame and
postgame activity, if they are ineligible to compete due to flagrant and/or unsportsmanlike conduct, athletic and/or academic
code violations, or for any other reason.

c. Any player who in the judgment of the official, intentionally spits on, strikes, slaps, kicks, pushes or aggressively physically
contacts an official at any time shall be immediately ineligible for competition a minimum of 90 calendar days from the date
of the confrontation. In addition, the player is ineligible to compete for the first 25% of the next season in that same sport.

d. In addition, during the regular season and tournament series, wrestlers who are ineligible (for any reason) may not participate
in pre-meet warm-ups or any pre-meet activity, including weigh-ins, during the period of ineligibility. Violation of this
provision will result in the deletion of all individual and team points for that weight class and the wrestler will be subject to
suspension as outlined in 8.a.

imwi - are you saying the "good guys" do not want to address something like this and prefer to leave it vague so it can be hard to interpret and ultimately a minor athlete could be put in harms way by an unethical coach? Or are you saying the "good guys" would never put an athlete in the line up who is not clear to compete?

I am just picking on you and showing how a statement in writing can quickly be interpreted incorrectly.

It is an interpretation. So the question is who would the WIAA interpret this? Does "ineligible (for any reason)" include medical reasons? And does "FLAGRANT OR UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT AND INELIGIBLE ATHLETES" include athletes who are ineligible to compete due to medical ineligibility?

[imwi]

Touche'

I think if it got reported to the WIAA, there would be action taken.  It's clearly wrong, just as it's wrong to fake an injury to avoid getting pinned, etc, but we know it happens.