Is fourth grade too early for ultracompetitive sports?

[dcmontgomery]

I think it depends on the kid.  I live in Duluth, MN where kids as early as kindergarten begin organized hockey.  By the time they are in 4th grade, they are in very competitive leagues at the Squirt level.  The deviation between players with differing abilities starts years before that.  Maybe that's because Duluth is just an incredible hockey town, but the kids at these level absolutely love it.  

As long as you have kids who enjoy the sport and parents who support them without pushing them too hard, 4th grade is not too young at all for kids to engage in competitive sports.  In Minnesota, that's only a few years away from when you can wrestle on varsity as well.  

[harley]

Wrestling and Basketball are two different sports. Completely different type of competitor/kid for each sport. In regard to wrestling and doing National Tournaments you can't compare to basketball. Wrestling is an individual sport and basketball is not. A wrestler will never get the talking/coaching instructions as a basketball team, let alone an individual basketball player....

My kids started competing in FS/GR in 2nd grade and 6th grade. The oldest loved it. Loved the beatings he took from the top kids in State. The youngest had a hard time with it as he was simply young and his cognitive development was not of his older brother. Going into the next season the youngest child started to get a mind set that most kids his age do not have. Some kids have a cognitive ability to adapt and over come adversity sooner then other children. Some kids feed off failure/challenges and strive to get better while most and I say most kids will not. Is it due to parenting??? NO.... It's the kid mental make up.....

If a parent wants to take his kids to National tourneys then let them. As stated by earlier post, it depends on each kid...

But to compare basketball and wrestling; I just do not see the comparison.

The article was about youth sports in general, not just basketball, but if I have to explain then it went over your head or you only read pieces of the article. I have seen so many youth wrestlers coached to win 1 minute periods, many that were multiple youth state champs but never high school state champs, we live in a win now society!! 

[harley]

I don't question your authenticity on that at all and I applaud you for that, you are completely correct about about the changing society we live in. I don't think I was much different as a wrestling parent as you were, I wish you and your children the best

[imnofish]

As a parent of a 4th grader I would like to hear the positives and negatives - as I have learned over the past 13 years (I have an older child as well) I am not the perfect parent - always interested in learning form others. imnofish - what has changed your perspective over the years?

What changed my perspective?  Coaching youth (Pre-school through 5th grade) and middle school for 20+ years.  Being a parent of a wrestler who began practicing at age 3 and competing at age 5.  Promoting high-intensity, high-profile experiences afforded me the opportunity to see an era when most of our top kids peaked in 7th grade, then dropped the sport within the next 3 years.  Some of our most talented kids did stay with wrestling, but underperformed in high school.  That underperformance was typically due to mental blocks established during the high pressure situations of youth participation, or in the transition period when other kids started to mature and be more competitive.  Kids who kept it pretty low-key until 7th or 8th grade tended to be more resilient, mentally tough, basically sound, and enthusiastic in their high school participation.  I have a nephew who didn't even start wrestling until 4th grade.  He peaked during his last couple years of high school and outperformed many "all-world" youth wrestlers from his past.  Too much (of anything), too soon, can be great fun for a while, but for most kids it eventually brings diminishing returns on that investment.  It's best to help young kids learn sound basic technique, keep pressure low, keep it fun, and let them gradually increase intensity as they physically and emotionally mature enough to handle it.  The fact that so many of us continue to do the opposite is a major contributor to the low participation rates now being experienced by many high school teams, IMO.

I should also add that our daughter's love was in track and field, which (in our region) afforded very few competitive opportunities before middle school, during her childhood.  We did take her to a few of those races and she seemed to enjoy being involved more than winning.  Otherwise, she just loved to run and would beg me to take her to the track.  She learned to love the activity when young, then started getting focused on competition in middle school.  Despite some very serious health issues, she never gave up and eventually worked her way to a state title.  Her mental toughness was driven by her love for the activity itself.  IMO, allowing her (a very shy girl) time to mature and find her own path to excellence was the key to her success.  High pressure early would have probably driven her away from the sport.

[trout1]

I liked the hope of getting a scholarship part. Instead of spending $75.00/hr on individual training and $500.00 to be on a team in fourth grade take that money and invest it, so your kid doesn't need a scholarship. If they truly have that amazing talent to get a scholarship they will. Just take a look at your own conference's history and add up all the athletes that received an athletic scholarship vs. how many competed and it a very low percentage.

[imnofish]

Imnofish- you have great insight and thanks for sharing. I guess the one thing I didn't mention from our experience  is when we go to the bigger tournament such as Nationals in Iowa, Dominate in the Dells, State FS/GR is we put an emphasis  on having fun. We have several families that attend  with us as well and the kids look at this time as fun in a pool with their buddies and at the hotel. As parents we let the kids wrestle then once the match is over, win or lose we always tell the kids great job. At times the kids give us a look when the outcome isn't what they wanted to achieve but once the tournament is done we all have fun together whether at dinner, hotel stays or even on the ride home. 10-20 years from now the kids won't be talking about a win they may have had in a big tournament but I'm sure they will all reminisce of the phone they had together with throw friends during the wrestling trip.

I would say the one and most important factor when competing is to tell your kids to have fun. Yes it's a lame response  but it's the truth.

We focused on having fun, too.  What we found out is that it doesn't take away the stresses associated with the event.  We had some kids placing high at state and national events; then dropping the sport in middle school.  They told me they got sick of the pressure and all the time they were investing.  That's when we totally backed off of the high-pressure stuff.  The time period following that decision is when we had the most WIAA medalists.

[DocWrestling]

#1) It depends on the coach.  I have seen good and bad.  You need a coach with the proper perspective.  One that can teach the sport, make it fun, and teach the kids to compete and work hard without worrying too much about the result.  This is a coach that realizes that 5 minutes after the competition the kids will be smiling and playing whether they won or lost.  This is a coach that realizes it is a marathon of building an athlete and whether they win or lose that day does not mean they are a worse or better team/player.  It is a coach the realizes the competitions are simply to allow athletes to test their skills and learn to compete and for coaches to take not of what needs to be worked on in practice.  It takes a coach with perspective that realizes if he coaches 4th grade every year he might actually have a player earn a scholarship once every 10 years depending on the sport
2) It depends on sport.  Team sports are easier to introduce vs. individual sports as there is less pressure on the athlete
3) It depends on the parents.  Overbearing parents dreaming of scholarships will ruin an athlete and coach real fast and take all the fun out of it
4) It depends on the player.  Some kids are ready and some are not.  Some kids do it because they love that sport and others do it simply because they are good at it and others do it because there parents want them to.

Sports are just like academics in my mind.  We take the best in each academic subject in separate them in groups by 4th grade to challenge them and make them better.  If done right the kids have more fun with this challenge and advancement.  Sports are the same way.  It is no fun for an athlete who loves a sport and wants to do it all the time to find like minded players to play and improve vs. playing with other kids who have no passion for the sport or interest or talent in the sport.  Again you need perspective from coach and parents because kids cannot make all the decisions and need to realize what is not healthy or fun.

In conclusion, it really depends on the coach to give a quality experience.  

[imnofish]

#1) It depends on the coach.  I have seen good and bad.  You need a coach with the proper perspective.  One that can teach the sport, make it fun, and teach the kids to compete and work hard without worrying too much about the result.  This is a coach that realizes that 5 minutes after the competition the kids will be smiling and playing whether they won or lost.  This is a coach that realizes it is a marathon of building an athlete and whether they win or lose that day does not mean they are a worse or better team/player.  It is a coach the realizes the competitions are simply to allow athletes to test their skills and learn to compete and for coaches to take not of what needs to be worked on in practice.  It takes a coach with perspective that realizes if he coaches 4th grade every year he might actually have a player earn a scholarship once every 10 years depending on the sport
2) It depends on sport.  Team sports are easier to introduce vs. individual sports as there is less pressure on the athlete
3) It depends on the parents.  Overbearing parents dreaming of scholarships will ruin an athlete and coach real fast and take all the fun out of it
4) It depends on the player.  Some kids are ready and some are not.  Some kids do it because they love that sport and others do it simply because they are good at it and others do it because there parents want them to.

Sports are just like academics in my mind.  We take the best in each academic subject in separate them in groups by 4th grade to challenge them and make them better.  If done right the kids have more fun with this challenge and advancement.  Sports are the same way.  It is no fun for an athlete who loves a sport and wants to do it all the time to find like minded players to play and improve vs. playing with other kids who have no passion for the sport or interest or talent in the sport.  Again you need perspective from coach and parents because kids cannot make all the decisions and need to realize what is not healthy or fun.

In conclusion, it really depends on the coach to give a quality experience.  

What about parents?  My biggest challenge was often overzealous parents who wanted to micromanage their kids.  They tended to promote poor technique and too much pressure.

[DocWrestling]

If a parent really wants a scholarship, the easiest way is an academic scholarship.  Put your money into academic tutors.

No athlete has ever received a scholarship that did not compete in high school and all sports are littered with athletes that were stars in their youth that did not compete in high school.

A great coach has goals to teach the sport in a way that everyone wants to return the next year to learn more.  If you give it to them all by teaching everything rather than building and making everything seem like "THE IT COMPETITION" there is no place to go and kids get bored each subsequent year

[imnofish]

My observation/opinion based on 34 years teaching/coaching and involvement in wrestling for 46 years:
Wrestling is NEVER NOT 'ultracompetitive'.  Every wrestling encounter between two individuals (in competition) is ultracompetitive.
Only in some controlled practices or training or demonstration is it not.
I believe 'kids' need to be emotionally and intellectually ready and prepared (read: matured) to be in 'ultracompetitive' situations and 'handle it', whether it be wrestling or other endeavors.
If they are not emotionally and intellectually prepared (mature enough) attrition is accelerated (more kids quit sooner and more often). We can all give countless examples.
Overall, in my experience, my wrestlers who began wrestling in 7-8-9th grade (ages 12-13-14) were far more excited, coachable, motivated, driven overall than wrestlers who had been through the 'grind' of wrestling since 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 years of age. Granted, there were some exceptions, but they were few.
In my opinion, for wrestling, this emotional and intellectual maturity occurs about 7th or 8th grade for the general population.  I believe kids and wrestling are best served when kids begin 'out of town' competition at 12 or 13 years of age.
This does not serve the monetary collection system and accolade system currently in place using younger kids as the vehicle, so I don't see it changing.

That is quite consistent with my own observations, Tom.  I think there is plenty of research and anecdotal information out there that backs us up, too.  One thing that I've noticed in discussions on this topic is that those with kids currently following the high-pressure youth sports formula, along with those whose kids did so and succeeded in high school or college, are most likely to defend it; conversely, those whom have coached for a long time tend to focus on the broader context.  To me, this implies that the real question we need to discuss is what is our primary objective?  We seek to build top-level athletes, but we also want high participation rates.  Obviously, the two expectations are contradictory.  As we have focused on developing elite athletes, overall participation rates have dropped.  So, do we believe in the inherent personal value of participation for all kids?  ...or do we place a higher value on individual excellence for a select few?  If it's the latter, did we not have top competitors in the days before the onset of overly-competitive youth sports?  One thing that I and some of our former top athletes have discussed is the lack of day-to-day competition for many of the top athletes...  and how that is often evidenced by sloppy technique.  Maybe, our top athletes would ultimately be more sound in the basic skills, if they had more consistent challenges. 

[Dale Einerson]

If a parent really wants a scholarship, the easiest way is an academic scholarship.  Put your money into academic tutors.

No athlete has ever received a scholarship that did not compete in high school and all sports are littered with athletes that were stars in their youth that did not compete in high school.

A great coach has goals to teach the sport in a way that everyone wants to return the next year to learn more.  If you give it to them all by teaching everything rather than building and making everything seem like "THE IT COMPETITION" there is no place to go and kids get bored each subsequent year

The absolutely, positively "easiest" way to get your schooling paid for is by joining the military.  I say that meaning it, knowing full well the responsibility and commitment and honor that are earned that way are not necessarily easy to do, just guaranteed, provided you can stomach the idea of potentially being exposed to the all too frequent IED.

The next "easiest" way to get post-secondary schooling paid for is through proven academic accomplishment. And, just like athletics, you don't get to just use the results you had as you entered college, you still have to turn in remarkable results throughout college or those monies disappear.

Another "easy" way to get schooling paid for is to be a star at work; then get your employer to pay for some or all of it. This availability has dropped off considerably.  It was one of the very common take-aways during The Great Recession; it doesn't help that college tuition is up 1,000% in the past 20 years.

It is not easy to get an athletic scholarship.  I have posted several times, with admittedley varying mathemathical arguments, but if you aren't a starter and an AA on a D1 or D2 team, you are paying some, perhaps significant, portion of your college costs.

It is easier to pay for schooling received at 2 year schools, because it is less expensive.

Private colleges have significant leeway in what they can do to support tuition, than what we experience in our publicly supported Wisconsin system.

But, unless you are Alex Dieringer or Jake Sueflohn in the flesh, you are paying...and I would surmise they were paying a portion their Freshman and perhaps Sophomore years.

Looked at another way, there was a thread a couple weeks back that talked about how the participation rates dropped off considerably year after year, beginning around late elementary school.  Would seem if we started with hyper competitive situations later, the drop-off might not be so severe.

[Say-Say]

To give a yes or no answer I'd have to also say yes.  4th grade is too early.

There are exceptions to any rule, and kids who can be born in headgear and wrestle through college.  But for the majority of kids, they have a good chunk of 5-7 years where they can tolerate and excel at something.  I'd rather mine peak during a college experience or, if they don't want the college experience, to peak at senior year of high school (which would start them as 6th graders).

[DocWrestling]

My coaching philosophy is just that.  The pinnacle of 99% of athletes is their senior year of high school so prepare and build them for that.

Then of course the first rule is that you have to get them to their senior year with a desire for that sport yet.  We all know many great athletes drop out prior.

[jaguarwrestler]

I personally think interest and participation is a sport at ages 7-9 is great, if they having a burning desire to earn a scholarship or make a career of the sport I see no reason to bring them to an ultra-competitive state until they are at least 12 or 13... I can't imagine that a 9 year old will have a large benefit from being ultra-competitive over a 13 year old when they are both 18. If my son wrestles it will be limited to just practice the first year, maybe 1 competition the second year and work my way up the scale and I won't be starting him at 4 or 5, more like 7-8. No one cares that your kid was a national champ at age 8, the other kids will all catch up even if they start later. You give me a 12 year old that never wrestled but wants to be dedicated to the sport and I bet he will be just as good as the kid that started at 5 when they are both 17. Get your kids involved with sports, but let them be kids because the time from age 7 to age 17 will fly by and you never get it back. You will never see me driving my 9 year old across state lines for some national tournament, to me that is more for the parents ego than anything.

[imnofish]

I personally think interest and participation is a sport at ages 7-9 is great, if they having a burning desire to earn a scholarship or make a career of the sport I see no reason to bring them to an ultra-competitive state until they are at least 12 or 13... I can't imagine that a 9 year old will have a large benefit from being ultra-competitive over a 13 year old when they are both 18. If my son wrestles it will be limited to just practice the first year, maybe 1 competition the second year and work my way up the scale and I won't be starting him at 4 or 5, more like 7-8. No one cares that your kid was a national champ at age 8, the other kids will all catch up even if they start later. You give me a 12 year old that never wrestled but wants to be dedicated to the sport and I bet he will be just as good as the kid that started at 5 when they are both 17. Get your kids involved with sports, but let them be kids because the time from age 7 to age 17 will fly by and you never get it back. You will never see me driving my 9 year old across state lines for some national tournament, to me that is more for the parents ego than anything.

Yep.  I just saw a father of one of our former elementary school standouts and he proudly reminded me of how his son was a silver medalist at Nationals.  I was kind and didn't remind him that his boy did not wrestle in high school.