Stat ? referring byes

[shouldvewrestled]

Kid is JV level wrestler who only gets put in for forfeits and at tournaments where he will get placement points just for being there. Goes 7-4 on the year with no actual wins just forfeits and byes. Actual record 0-4. He will get a higher seed at regionals than a 10-10 kid who actually probably won at least 6-8 matches. Is that fair? There are cases on both sides but still say its silly you get credit for them as a win. Kids get credit all the time for 100, 150 wins when in actuality many barely even actually wrestled that many matches.

Is that scenario fair - probably not, but that is again the beauty of wrestling - teaches so many life lessons.   Life isn't always fair, does everyone have the same home life, same high schools, same teachers, same colleges - to go after that same job.  Nope - it's about overcoming adversity.  

Is it fair that some kids come into regionals with 8-12 losses when their competition was a combination of - the MN Christmas tourney, Dvorak, Badgerstate, BiState, Midstates, Marty Loy, Cheeshead, etc.....   vs. Teams that wrestled the Wickware open,  the Birchwood bash, the Stonelake Invitational (Fictitious N of Hwy 8 tourneys - FYI) and come in with only one or two losses?

I do take you to task for the "Kids get credit all the time for 100, 150 wins when in actuality many barely even actually wrestled that many matches"  I would like to see that list,  Yea there probably are a few kids (106lb's would be my guess) that maybe have 100+ wins and maybe 15-20 of those over the 3-4 yrs were forfeits, but that is pretty rare, unless you have some statistics you would like to toss out?  100 + wins are impressive at any school and it's a little disparaging to toss out a blanket statement like that.

Its obvious you have someone close to you that has a .500 record and may not get the best draw verses another kid, What I'm struggling with is - I'm guessing your D2/3 - he isn't going to have the top kid in the first round.  So even if he does have a match the first round he has to win to be the #2 in that regional anyway - right, because even if he ends up facing the top kid in the second round, he can still wrestle back to second - so what am I missing?  

Life isn't fair, use that as a teaching moment fight through it.  There isn't one fix out there that fixes all the injustice in the world let alone in the seeding meetings.  

Trust me - I could list a laundry list of "things that weren't fair for jr" (in my mind) over the past year and half, but we need to teach them to persevere through that (even if outcome isn't fun to watch your child go through - and I could tell you stories) and honestly I think he is a much better person today because of it.  

100 wins is a huge accomplishment, so is 90, so is 20 for some kids.  Many of the older guys barely wrestled 100 matches if they were a 4 year wrestler.  You talk about teaching life lessons, so giving you a win for not wrestling is a good life lesson?  Counting those in your 100 wins is a good life lesson?  Those kids did wrestle their butts off and nobody can take that away from them.  Still 20 years down the road when their name is on a stat sheet saying they won 107 matches is misleading when over those four years they probably did have more than 7-8 FF's/byes on their record.  Will say I shouldn't have said they never actually wrestled 100 matches, with loses said wrestlers did most likely wrestle that many.

The only reason to give them the win is for a seed in a regional or individual tournament. If it all plays itself out in the end why does it matter either way then?  Guess we should stop talking about it.

[shouldvewrestled]

Don't forget the wrestle back for 2nd, so in reality this time of the year, can really play its self out.

At regionals with D2/3 - they send through 3 - thought it was 2?  Also, if you loose the first round at regionals (with no bye) - your screwed then right?

What are you talking about?

In D2/D3 if you lose first round of regionals you are done, best you can get is 5th.  They only take 2 from regionals, think many forget that.

Yeah but in the senerio that is proposed the kid that is 7-4 ( Actually 0-4 minus FF's) is probably gonna get outted in the first round anyways. So would it matter where he was seeded?

It would matter to the other kids since he would get the 2 seed.  2 seed would get a bye to second round. He won't make it to sectionals but the 4 seed and 5 seed would have to wrestle first round.  Loser is done.  When the 3,4,5 seed are all equal that is a big deal.  One of them is done first round never getting a shot at a wrestle back. But life's not fair so who cares.

[Quack]

Don't forget the wrestle back for 2nd, so in reality this time of the year, can really play its self out.

At regionals with D2/3 - they send through 3 - thought it was 2?  Also, if you loose the first round at regionals (with no bye) - your screwed then right?

What are you talking about?

In D2/D3 if you lose first round of regionals you are done, best you can get is 5th.  They only take 2 from regionals, think many forget that.

Yeah but in the senerio that is proposed the kid that is 7-4 ( Actually 0-4 minus FF's) is probably gonna get outted in the first round anyways. So would it matter where he was seeded?

It would matter to the other kids since he would get the 2 seed.  2 seed would get a bye to second round. He won't make it to sectionals but the 4 seed and 5 seed would have to wrestle first round.  Loser is done.  When the 3,4,5 seed are all equal that is a big deal.  One of them is done first round never getting a shot at a wrestle back. But life's not fair so who cares.

The kid that was done out of 4 and 5 since 3 would get a shot at 2, probably wasn't gonna make it anyways, since that kid couldn't get past the one one ahead of him anyway.

[shouldvewrestled]

Don't forget the wrestle back for 2nd, so in reality this time of the year, can really play its self out.

At regionals with D2/3 - they send through 3 - thought it was 2?  Also, if you loose the first round at regionals (with no bye) - your screwed then right?

What are you talking about?

In D2/D3 if you lose first round of regionals you are done, best you can get is 5th.  They only take 2 from regionals, think many forget that.

Yeah but in the senerio that is proposed the kid that is 7-4 ( Actually 0-4 minus FF's) is probably gonna get outted in the first round anyways. So would it matter where he was seeded?

It would matter to the other kids since he would get the 2 seed.  2 seed would get a bye to second round. He won't make it to sectionals but the 4 seed and 5 seed would have to wrestle first round.  Loser is done.  When the 3,4,5 seed are all equal that is a big deal.  One of them is done first round never getting a shot at a wrestle back. But life's not fair so who cares.

The kid that was done out of 4 and 5 since 3 would get a shot at 2, probably wasn't gonna make it anyways, since that kid couldn't get past the one one ahead of him anyway.

You're not getting it obvisously.  The kids that got the 3,4, and 5 seed were all equal wrestlers and the kid who gets the 2 seed because of FFs/byes is the 5th best wrestler.  The (0-4) wrestler is the one who gets the 2 seed.  If seeded correctly where the 3,4,5 seeds actually get the 2,3,4 seeds, 4 wrestles the 1 seed and loses but most likely gets a wrestleback as the 1 seed would win in the finals.  The 2,3 seeds wrestle each other, loser gets 4 seed and thus they all get a shot at that 2nd spot for sectionals.  If the 0-4 kid gets the 2 seed because he has 7 FF's/byes on his record one of those wrestlers is done right away never getting their shot at wrestling for a wrestleback.
The key is the 2-4 best wrestlers in the scenario are all equal wrestlers ability wise.  Should get a shot at wrestling it out not between the three of them.

[ElectricGuy]

Don't forget the wrestle back for 2nd, so in reality this time of the year, can really play its self out.

At regionals with D2/3 - they send through 3 - thought it was 2?  Also, if you loose the first round at regionals (with no bye) - your screwed then right?

What are you talking about?

In D2/D3 if you lose first round of regionals you are done, best you can get is 5th.  They only take 2 from regionals, think many forget that.

Yeah but in the senerio that is proposed the kid that is 7-4 ( Actually 0-4 minus FF's) is probably gonna get outted in the first round anyways. So would it matter where he was seeded?

It would matter to the other kids since he would get the 2 seed.  2 seed would get a bye to second round. He won't make it to sectionals but the 4 seed and 5 seed would have to wrestle first round.  Loser is done.  When the 3,4,5 seed are all equal that is a big deal.  One of them is done first round never getting a shot at a wrestle back. But life's not fair so who cares.

The kid that was done out of 4 and 5 since 3 would get a shot at 2, probably wasn't gonna make it anyways, since that kid couldn't get past the one one ahead of him anyway.

+1 Exactly

So back to the 100 wins - so the better kids should get less wins because they are better (bye's not counting as a win)?    If I were a better kid (and if they had a choice) - I would be saying - give someone else the byes - like the #4, #5, etc..   I'll take the last seeds - then the last seeds can face all the #1's and #2's in the first round so the better kid gets a "win" - then you will be on here saying it's not fair that the last seeds have to wrestle the #1's and #2's the first rounds since the byes were past down..

Move on already........   as for your last post argument - you just made ours - he lost to either the 3,4,5 guy so he isn't finishing in the top two anyways so he wasn't going.  You have no argument.

[shouldvewrestled]

Don't forget the wrestle back for 2nd, so in reality this time of the year, can really play its self out.

At regionals with D2/3 - they send through 3 - thought it was 2?  Also, if you loose the first round at regionals (with no bye) - your screwed then right?

What are you talking about?

In D2/D3 if you lose first round of regionals you are done, best you can get is 5th.  They only take 2 from regionals, think many forget that.

Yeah but in the senerio that is proposed the kid that is 7-4 ( Actually 0-4 minus FF's) is probably gonna get outted in the first round anyways. So would it matter where he was seeded?

It would matter to the other kids since he would get the 2 seed.  2 seed would get a bye to second round. He won't make it to sectionals but the 4 seed and 5 seed would have to wrestle first round.  Loser is done.  When the 3,4,5 seed are all equal that is a big deal.  One of them is done first round never getting a shot at a wrestle back. But life's not fair so who cares.

The kid that was done out of 4 and 5 since 3 would get a shot at 2, probably wasn't gonna make it anyways, since that kid couldn't get past the one one ahead of him anyway.

+1 Exactly

So back to the 100 wins - so the better kids should get less wins because they are better (bye's not counting as a win)?    If I were a better kid (and if they had a choice) - I would be saying - give someone else the byes - like the #4, #5, etc..   I'll take the last seeds - then the last seeds can face all the #1's and #2's in the first round so the better kid gets a "win" - then you will be on here saying it's not fair that the last seeds have to wrestle the #1's and #2's the first rounds since the byes were past down..

Move on already........   as for your last post argument - you just made ours - he lost to either the 3,4,5 guy so he isn't finishing in the top two anyways so he wasn't going.  You have no argument.

I guess you like taking credit for something you never actually did I guess that's ok and a great life lesson.  I guess we shouldn't even wrestle matches because the seeding meeting puts the best kid at #1 and nobody can beat them so just give them the trophy.  Many times there are 3 wrestlers where if they wrestle each other they usually all go 1-1 but because A beat B and B beat C obviously C could never beat A is your argument.

And if you care the most about getting 100 wins then sure draw in all byes so the best kids could get a first round match.  On average I would say many kids get 5 wins a year by a FF or a bye, (just a guess no actual numbers run) if you are a 4 year wrestler that's 20 wins.  If you like saying you had 104 wins for your career counting those 20 go ahead.

[Quack]

Don't forget the wrestle back for 2nd, so in reality this time of the year, can really play its self out.

What are you talking about?

In D2/D3 if you lose first round of regionals you are done, best you can get is 5th.  They only take 2 from regionals, think many forget that.

Yeah but in the senerio that is proposed the kid that is 7-4 ( Actually 0-4 minus FF's) is probably gonna get outted in the first round anyways. So would it matter where he was seeded?

It would matter to the other kids since he would get the 2 seed.  2 seed would get a bye to second round. He won't make it to sectionals but the 4 seed and 5 seed would have to wrestle first round.  Loser is done.  When the 3,4,5 seed are all equal that is a big deal.  One of them is done first round never getting a shot at a wrestle back. But life's not fair so who cares.

The kid that was done out of 4 and 5 since 3 would get a shot at 2, probably wasn't gonna make it anyways, since that kid couldn't get past the one one ahead of him anyway.

You're not getting it obvisously.  The kids that got the 3,4, and 5 seed were all equal wrestlers and the kid who gets the 2 seed because of FFs/byes is the 5th best wrestler.  The (0-4) wrestler is the one who gets the 2 seed.  If seeded correctly where the 3,4,5 seeds actually get the 2,3,4 seeds, 4 wrestles the 1 seed and loses but most likely gets a wrestleback as the 1 seed would win in the finals.  The 2,3 seeds wrestle each other, loser gets 4 seed and thus they all get a shot at that 2nd spot for sectionals.  If the 0-4 kid gets the 2 seed because he has 7 FF's/byes on his record one of those wrestlers is done right away never getting their shot at wrestling for a wrestleback.

Ok I do understand what you are saying, but you aren't understanding it fully. So take 1-5 kids. number 2 is the 0-4 kid. So 1 gets a bye. 2 gets a bye. 3 gets a bye. 4 and 5 battle it out. one kid doesn't make it. lets call him number 5. He is out. Ok lets finish this out. 1 beats 4.  4 heads for 3rd. 3 beats 2. 2 heads for 3rd. 1 wins it. 3 is in second and 4 beats 2. There is a wrestle back and it really doesn't matter who wins. Since they are equal.  So, 2 didnt make it, and 5 didnt make it, also one of 3 or 4 didnt make it. What really changed?

Look at it in the other way, the 2 kids actually ends up in the 5th spot and doesn't make it because he took 5th. when it comes to regionals, what is the difference between 5th and 4th? you don't go, your not an alternate, unless two kids ahead of you can't go for some reason. The only thing thing that is different, is the number 5 kid can't have sour grapes because he can beat the number 4 kid.

At regionals with D2/3 - they send through 3 - thought it was 2?  Also, if you loose the first round at regionals (with no bye) - your screwed then right?

[Quack]

The biggest thing is the advancement point for the team, 3-4-5 could all get some, and the 2 kid wouldn't get any

[shouldvewrestled]

Don't forget the wrestle back for 2nd, so in reality this time of the year, can really play its self out.

What are you talking about?

In D2/D3 if you lose first round of regionals you are done, best you can get is 5th.  They only take 2 from regionals, think many forget that.

Yeah but in the senerio that is proposed the kid that is 7-4 ( Actually 0-4 minus FF's) is probably gonna get outted in the first round anyways. So would it matter where he was seeded?

It would matter to the other kids since he would get the 2 seed.  2 seed would get a bye to second round. He won't make it to sectionals but the 4 seed and 5 seed would have to wrestle first round.  Loser is done.  When the 3,4,5 seed are all equal that is a big deal.  One of them is done first round never getting a shot at a wrestle back. But life's not fair so who cares.

The kid that was done out of 4 and 5 since 3 would get a shot at 2, probably wasn't gonna make it anyways, since that kid couldn't get past the one one ahead of him anyway.

You're not getting it obvisously.  The kids that got the 3,4, and 5 seed were all equal wrestlers and the kid who gets the 2 seed because of FFs/byes is the 5th best wrestler.  The (0-4) wrestler is the one who gets the 2 seed.  If seeded correctly where the 3,4,5 seeds actually get the 2,3,4 seeds, 4 wrestles the 1 seed and loses but most likely gets a wrestleback as the 1 seed would win in the finals.  The 2,3 seeds wrestle each other, loser gets 4 seed and thus they all get a shot at that 2nd spot for sectionals.  If the 0-4 kid gets the 2 seed because he has 7 FF's/byes on his record one of those wrestlers is done right away never getting their shot at wrestling for a wrestleback.

Ok I do understand what you are saying, but you aren't understanding it fully. So take 1-5 kids. number 2 is the 0-4 kid. So 1 gets a bye. 2 gets a bye. 3 gets a bye. 4 and 5 battle it out. one kid doesn't make it. lets call him number 5. He is out. Ok lets finish this out. 1 beats 4.  4 heads for 3rd. 3 beats 2. 2 heads for 3rd. 1 wins it. 3 is in second and 4 beats 2. There is a wrestle back and it really doesn't matter who wins. Since they are equal.  So, 2 didnt make it, and 5 didnt make it, also one of 3 or 4 didnt make it. What really changed?

Look at it in the other way, the 2 kids actually ends up in the 5th spot and doesn't make it because he took 5th. when it comes to regionals, what is the difference between 5th and 4th? you don't go, your not an alternate, unless two kids ahead of you can't go for some reason. The only thing thing that is different, is the number 5 kid can't have sour grapes because he can beat the number 4 kid.

At regionals with D2/3 - they send through 3 - thought it was 2?  Also, if you loose the first round at regionals (with no bye) - your screwed then right?

I understand all that but problem is the one who is out first is the one who could actually win in the wrestleback round.  It's all fixed if the coach at the seeding meeting says my 7-4 kid is actually 0-4 and should get 5 seed, but that wouldn't happen most likely.

In your scenario the 5 seed is out first.  Lets say if the 2 seed is actually put in at 0-4 and thus gets the 5 seed and 5 seed in turn gets the 4 seed.

Kid who is out first now wins first round vs (0-4) kid.  Loses to 1 seed goes for 3rd.  2 beats 3 so 3 goes for third.  1 beats 2 and 4 beats 3.   4 now gets a wrestleback and beats 2 and goes to sectionals.  Before he is done first round.  Now he's going to sectionals.  (Key is all 3 kids 2,3 and 4 seed are only separated by say 1 win or loss so basically same record/ability).

[Quack]

He didnt beat the number 4 or 5 kid, so how was he gonna beat the kid for 2nd? Just so you know, someone has to lose

[Quack]

I would be more ticked if someone asked for a 5th or last seed to beat the number 1 kid because he was out sick or injured all year and was just that good. Doing that the number 1 kid could have a tougher time and not make it especially is the number 2 kid and the number 1 kid were pretty equal.

[shouldvewrestled]

I would be more ticked if someone asked for a 5th or last seed to beat the number 1 kid because he was out sick or injured all year and was just that good. Doing that the number 1 kid could have a tougher time and not make it especially is the number 2 kid and the number 1 kid were pretty equal.

Would agree with this. This isn't the case in the scenario though. Can't ask for a lower seed.  Still if someone asks for 2 seed coach could say my kid is actually 0-4, all wins came from FF's/byes.

Granted I know its not a happen every year type scenario.  Just saying FF/byes can affect seeding and why not just put actual matches wrestled record.  Your best kids its most likely not going to affect if they don't get say 5 more wins on their record in their actual placing in the tournament.

[justaclone22]

Be a trendsetter shouldve... have your squad not count their forfeits and byes in their records from here going forward. Maybe it will catch on.

[shouldvewrestled]

He didnt beat the number 4 or 5 kid, so how was he gonna beat the kid for 2nd? Just so you know, someone has to lose

Yeah worst thing about sports is someone has to lose  .  First round matches and wrestlebacks are different pressure levels.  Outcomes of matches can depend on when you wrestle someone.  

[shouldvewrestled]

Be a trendsetter shouldve... have your squad not count their forfeits and byes in their records from here going forward. Maybe it will catch on.

I wouldn't mind it, doubt anybody on the Ellsworth coaching staff would care either but why take away wins from your kids records when noone else is? Not really a huge huge issue to be a trendsetter for.  Just a topic of discussion on a wrestling forum.