I love tournament time and am always jacked up this time of season. A full year of practices and matches coming to an end and the winners moving on to the next weekend. With that said I think there needs to be a push for some changes to our current system.
#1- Regional tournaments need to be changed to Super-Regionals (two regionals together, 12-14 teams) with the top 4 kids at each weight moving on to Sectionals. We need to truly get the best 8 kids moving on. There are reginals that have 6 teams right now in D2 and D3 that barely fill brakets and others that are loaded. You could be the third best kid in the Section right now and not even get out of Regionals. I have alwasy fould it odd that 2 move on from Regionals, but then 3 from Sectionals.
#2-Super Regionals would also cut the number of refs needed that weekend way down. I don't want to bash reffing, it is a hard job, but there is a lot of bad reffing going on at regionals. Way too many inconsistant stalling calls and refs out of position in big matches. These can influence matches and it is not right for those kids that work hard all season.
#3-Teams advanceing in the Team Touranment should have to actually win a Dual Tournament. Duals are very different in nature. Teams are not allowed to use strategy in an individual tournament and depth does not come into play. Both of those are required in a dual meet. Follow Minnesota's lead on this.
Thoughts??
Couldn't agree with you more. It's good for our sport to have the best kids advance and the best teams advance and our current system doesn't do either.
I have wondered why these same ideas have not been implemented years ago
Quote from: panther93 on February 17, 2020, 09:50:30 AM
I love tournament time and am always jacked up this time of season. A full year of practices and matches coming to an end and the winners moving on to the next weekend. With that said I think there needs to be a push for some changes to our current system.
#1- Regional tournaments need to be changed to Super-Regionals (two regionals together, 12-14 teams) with the top 4 kids at each weight moving on to Sectionals. We need to truly get the best 8 kids moving on. There are reginals that have 6 teams right now in D2 and D3 that barely fill brakets and others that are loaded. You could be the third best kid in the Section right now and not even get out of Regionals. I have alwasy fould it odd that 2 move on from Regionals, but then 3 from Sectionals.
#2-Super Regionals would also cut the number of refs needed that weekend way down. I don't want to bash reffing, it is a hard job, but there is a lot of bad reffing going on at regionals. Way too many inconsistant stalling calls and refs out of position in big matches. These can influence matches and it is not right for those kids that work hard all season.
#3-Teams advanceing in the Team Touranment should have to actually win a Dual Tournament. Duals are very different in nature. Teams are not allowed to use strategy in an individual tournament and depth does not come into play. Both of those are required in a dual meet. Follow Minnesota's lead on this.
Thoughts??
We've had this discussion over and over again. What you are saying is been talked about ad nauseum on this board. I totally agree. There is a way to do it with a 16 man bracket without going over the 5 match limit if first round losers are eliminated. With the amount of byes anyway, it would be a very small amount of kids who are one and done. It used to be this way in D1 anyway. Not sure why we can't do it.
The referees needed would also go down.
Tournament strength is not always dual strength. Wisconsin is ranked in the top five but they are nowhere near a top five dual team. Proof is right here with our D1 college team.
I still do not think we have to waste everyone's time by having everyone qualify for the individual postseason.
Set a cutoff. If your season record is below winning percentage of .400 you do not qualify for the individual tournament.
It makes the bracket more manageable and simply gets rid of those first round pins that just lengthen the tournament and create match limitation issues.
Quote from: panther93 on February 17, 2020, 09:50:30 AM
#3-Teams advanceing in the Team Touranment should have to actually win a Dual Tournament. Duals are very different in nature. Teams are not allowed to use strategy in an individual tournament and depth does not come into play. Both of those are required in a dual meet. Follow Minnesota's lead on this.
Technically, they are in a Dual Tournament for Sectionals. It is a two team tournament.
If you wanted more teams in a team Sectional event, when exactly would this event take place? Right now the single dual team sectional is on Tuesday night. Would you have the teams wrestle a second round on Thursday night? Then go right into individual Sectional on that following Saturday? When are the kids suppose to do homework? How about downtime?
Division 1 already has 8 teams qualifying for Team State. That's a pretty amazing dual tournament in Madison. Maybe you're argument is meant to be for Division 2 and 3.
Quote from: Ghetto on February 17, 2020, 11:18:57 AM
Quote from: panther93 on February 17, 2020, 09:50:30 AM
I love tournament time and am always jacked up this time of season. A full year of practices and matches coming to an end and the winners moving on to the next weekend. With that said I think there needs to be a push for some changes to our current system.
#1- Regional tournaments need to be changed to Super-Regionals (two regionals together, 12-14 teams) with the top 4 kids at each weight moving on to Sectionals. We need to truly get the best 8 kids moving on. There are reginals that have 6 teams right now in D2 and D3 that barely fill brakets and others that are loaded. You could be the third best kid in the Section right now and not even get out of Regionals. I have alwasy fould it odd that 2 move on from Regionals, but then 3 from Sectionals.
#2-Super Regionals would also cut the number of refs needed that weekend way down. I don't want to bash reffing, it is a hard job, but there is a lot of bad reffing going on at regionals. Way too many inconsistant stalling calls and refs out of position in big matches. These can influence matches and it is not right for those kids that work hard all season.
#3-Teams advanceing in the Team Touranment should have to actually win a Dual Tournament. Duals are very different in nature. Teams are not allowed to use strategy in an individual tournament and depth does not come into play. Both of those are required in a dual meet. Follow Minnesota's lead on this.
Thoughts??
We've had this discussion over and over again. What you are saying is been talked about ad nauseum on this board. I totally agree. There is a way to do it with a 16 man bracket without going over the 5 match limit if first round losers are eliminated. With the amount of byes anyway, it would be a very small amount of kids who are one and done. It used to be this way in D1 anyway. Not sure why we can't do it.
The referees needed would also go down.
Tournament strength is not always dual strength. Wisconsin is ranked in the top five but they are nowhere near a top five dual team. Proof is right here with our D1 college team.
Have the schools sign waivers to go over the 5 match limit. Other states do it why cannt Wisconsin follow suit. I forgot, the wiaa
Quote from: NoFooForU on February 17, 2020, 01:11:37 PM
Quote from: panther93 on February 17, 2020, 09:50:30 AM
#3-Teams advanceing in the Team Touranment should have to actually win a Dual Tournament. Duals are very different in nature. Teams are not allowed to use strategy in an individual tournament and depth does not come into play. Both of those are required in a dual meet. Follow Minnesota's lead on this.
Technically, they are in a Dual Tournament for Sectionals. It is a two team tournament.
If you wanted more teams in a team Sectional event, when exactly would this event take place? Right now the single dual team sectional is on Tuesday night. Would you have the teams wrestle a second round on Thursday night? Then go right into individual Sectional on that following Saturday? When are the kids suppose to do homework? How about downtime?
Division 1 already has 8 teams qualifying for Team State. That's a pretty amazing dual tournament in Madison. Maybe you're argument is meant to be for Division 2 and 3.
Not everyone has to qualify. have top two from each conference qualify. Right now we have 16 teams qualify to wrestle tomorrow in D1. Easily could make that 32 and send 4 teams to each team sectional and they wrestle 2 rounds like D2 and D3.
In D2 and D3 they have 4 teams at team sectionals. Could make it even 8 if you wanted and wrestle three rounds and get the kids out of school early.
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 17, 2020, 01:45:28 PM
Quote from: NoFooForU on February 17, 2020, 01:11:37 PM
Quote from: panther93 on February 17, 2020, 09:50:30 AM
#3-Teams advanceing in the Team Touranment should have to actually win a Dual Tournament. Duals are very different in nature. Teams are not allowed to use strategy in an individual tournament and depth does not come into play. Both of those are required in a dual meet. Follow Minnesota's lead on this.
Technically, they are in a Dual Tournament for Sectionals. It is a two team tournament.
If you wanted more teams in a team Sectional event, when exactly would this event take place? Right now the single dual team sectional is on Tuesday night. Would you have the teams wrestle a second round on Thursday night? Then go right into individual Sectional on that following Saturday? When are the kids suppose to do homework? How about downtime?
Division 1 already has 8 teams qualifying for Team State. That's a pretty amazing dual tournament in Madison. Maybe you're argument is meant to be for Division 2 and 3.
Not everyone has to qualify. have top two from each conference qualify. Right now we have 16 teams qualify to wrestle tomorrow in D1. Easily could make that 32 and send 4 teams to each team sectional and they wrestle 2 rounds like D2 and D3.
In D2 and D3 they have 4 teams at team sectionals. Could make it even 8 if you wanted and wrestle three rounds and get the kids out of school early.
32 teams is a waste of time. I cant name 32 teams in D1 that could compete at that level. I think 16 is the right number, just need to get the correct 16 teams in. Look at the D1 regional results.... some Regional winners are benefiting from their placement. Some are hurt. Get the right teams into a dual tournament and no one will complain. Also, need to seed them. Football, Basketball, Volleyball do this. Wrestling should be no different.
Quote from: panther93 on February 17, 2020, 09:50:30 AM
I love tournament time and am always jacked up this time of season. A full year of practices and matches coming to an end and the winners moving on to the next weekend. With that said I think there needs to be a push for some changes to our current system.
#1- Regional tournaments need to be changed to Super-Regionals (two regionals together, 12-14 teams) with the top 4 kids at each weight moving on to Sectionals. We need to truly get the best 8 kids moving on. There are reginals that have 6 teams right now in D2 and D3 that barely fill brakets and others that are loaded. You could be the third best kid in the Section right now and not even get out of Regionals. I have alwasy fould it odd that 2 move on from Regionals, but then 3 from Sectionals.
#2-Super Regionals would also cut the number of refs needed that weekend way down. I don't want to bash reffing, it is a hard job, but there is a lot of bad reffing going on at regionals. Way too many inconsistant stalling calls and refs out of position in big matches. These can influence matches and it is not right for those kids that work hard all season.
#3-Teams advanceing in the Team Touranment should have to actually win a Dual Tournament. Duals are very different in nature. Teams are not allowed to use strategy in an individual tournament and depth does not come into play. Both of those are required in a dual meet. Follow Minnesota's lead on this.
Thoughts??
Agreed! Section dual tournament (to advance to team state) works well in Minnesota, was held this past weekend with the individual sectionals his weekend (Friday evening and Saturday).
If I had control of the WIAA in all team sports I would not have all teams qualify for the championship tournament.
I would create criteria based on records and such for each division.
The top 32 teams would qualify for the state championship tournament that ends in Madison with a state championship.
Then I would take the next 32 teams and create a D1 "silver" division and seed it and just compete to the completion of the bracket in home gyms. Do the same for D2, D3, etc.
Then I would do the same for the next 32 teams in a "bronze" division
Then I would do the same for the final 32 teams in a "copper division.
Let teams of similar talent battle it out in a single elimination tournament of similarly talented teams. Every team would think they might be able to win their division and have some fun.
No reason for the #15 seed team to travel an hour to get killed by the #2 seed in any sport
For individual wrestling I would do the same. Host a super-regional instead of regionals or sectionals. Have a gold bracket made up of all wrestlers over .500 record. These are wrestlers trying to get to Then have a silver division for those under .500 which is just another tournament. Eliminates unnecessary matches that take time and count as matches and makes it more fun for the wrestlers that have no fantasy of qualifying for state. I bet if you asked every wrestler in a sectional if they wanted to wrestle in the gold division to go to state or another "silver" tournament where the best guys are removed they would choose the silver division and would likely only have about 8 kids in the "gold" division at most for each sectional.
Those less successful wrestlers then have goals to make it into the gold bracket the next year
They only problem with having to have a .400 winning % is teams will now take every single forfeit they can to make sure the kid has a .400 winning %.
As for the teams if you took the 1st and 2nd place from each conference (placed them in different sectionals) and seeded the entire state team tournament you will 99.9% of the time get the best dual teams at state.
Have 4 schools wrestle the Tuesday before regional (which would eliminate 3/4 of the teams the very first night and the winner moves on. And then again the Tuesday after regional. I'm not sure how many teams you would start with but I would sure think you could get it down to 4 or 8 left pretty quick.
Quote from: missinghome on February 17, 2020, 04:19:38 PM
They only problem with having to have a .400 winning % is teams will now take every single forfeit they can to make sure the kid has a .400 winning %.
As for the teams if you took the 1st and 2nd place from each conference (placed them in different sectionals) and seeded the entire state team tournament you will 99.9% of the time get the best dual teams at state.
Have 4 schools wrestle the Tuesday before regional (which would eliminate 3/4 of the teams the very first night and the winner moves on. And then again the Tuesday after regional. I'm not sure how many teams you would start with but I would sure think you could get it down to 4 or 8 left pretty quick.
Agree with the FF issue, you know how much protecting your seed we see in college, would that start in high school now? Also, what about strength of schedule? Teams that go the big tournaments now get punished if they lose as opposed to teams that don't do any of the big ones?
I don't think that is going to happen with kids under .400 winning percentage. If you had a second "silver" division for them to still wrestle in they would likely rather wrestle in that.
My guesses....
Maybe 10% of wrestlers qualify for state
Maybe 20% of wrestlers think they can qualify for state
The other 70% just want a chance to wrestle and have some fun. They would rather have a chance to wrestle against kids of similar talent at the end of the year versus going out and wrestling the #1 or #2 seed and getting pinned and that is the end of their year?
Let's take D1 sectionals with 16 teams. Let's say we get rid of regionals and have a super-sectional. One of the main reasons we don't have it is due to it needing to be two days with match limitations.
1) 8 wrestlers advanced and 8 did not. I am pretty sure that we knew the 90% that would advance and those that would not before the regionals were wrestled. Did we just waste all the wrestlers, coaches, and families time by adding another Saturday to their schedule?
2) What if before we wrestled at all we seeded all 16 wrestlers and the top 8 were placed in the "gold" division with a chance to go to state? The other 8 were placed in a "silver" division and were allowed to wrestle in a consolation bracket. This eliminates issue of match limitations and can all be done in one shorter day.
3) There are kids that qualified for sectionals this upcoming weekend that only got there because of low numbers. They know they will get pinned in 1 minute and then season is over. I bet a lot of these kids if given the choice prior to regionals would have chosen to wrestle in the "silver division". They had no illusions of making it to state and are just being used as bracket fillers.
Let's have a system that meets the needs and wants of all kinds of wrestlers that are each getting something different out of the sport. Then set up a dual meet tournament system where these wrestlers do have an impact on the state team by either getting a victory or not getting pinned.
I would bet that in typical D1 sectional there are no more than 5 or 6 wrestlers that truly believe they could make it to state and the rest would gladly choose to wrestle in the "silver division" to have a chance to win a tournament even if a consolation tourney.
I like the idea of a Silver division/group. But I would open that up (Gold and Silver) to any wrestler.... Varsity and JV. We could do away with the WI challenge Series then. There are some JV wrestlers that can compete at a high varsity level, their just stuck behind a REALLY good varsity kid. Usually ranked high. Of course, not all JV kids are in this situation.
8 Sections for each division
Weekend I Section Team Duals (We do a pigtail on Wednesday) Friday three rounds
Section champs go to state (8 team state bracket)
Weekend II Section Individual Tournament (Friday/Saturday)
Top two per weight go to state (16 man state bracket)
Weekend III "State"
Thursday Team Dual Championships
Friday/Saturday Individual Championships
This seems much simpler than the suggestions for changing the present WI. System than the ones I have seen mentioned (especially with some getting byes, etc.).
I like the silver division rule. Maybe, if possible, the winner of the silver bracket gets a wrestle off against the lowest gold team qualifier? Like final X.
Just a thought.
All Great Ideas: Here are some thoughts. This is with a D2 and D3 slant, but could be considered in D1.
There are two views to consider. The strength of the teams and the strength of each weight class. First of all, I believe everyone deserves a shot or individuals will be looking to pad records or sit kids out to hit that cut off. With that said, when we hear about a tough regional the imbalance in teams is what dominates the conversation. Within many team sports, they seed to create a greater liklihood of the toughest teams meeting later on the trail.
What if each of the sites were determined ahead of time then we seed the teams in that sectional and assign them similar to team sports. In many cases that also takes care of the individuals though it wouldn't be perfect. Then we work around the school district's seeds that are hosting.
Regional A - Seed 1, 8, 9, 16, 17, 24, 25
Regional B Seed 2, 7, 10, 15, 18, 23, 26
Regional C Seed 3, 6, 11, 14, 19,22,27
Regional D Seed 4, 5, 12, 13, 20, 21, 28
That would be the basic premise, but if the host school was one of the seeds then that group with the corresponding seed would go to that regional.
A lot of advantages to this balance. Basketball makes it work, I think wrestling could.
Quote from: nutman on February 18, 2020, 10:36:50 AM
All Great Ideas: Here are some thoughts. This is with a D2 and D3 slant, but could be considered in D1.
There are two views to consider. The strength of the teams and the strength of each weight class. First of all, I believe everyone deserves a shot or individuals will be looking to pad records or sit kids out to hit that cut off. With that said, when we hear about a tough regional the imbalance in teams is what dominates the conversation. Within many team sports, they seed to create a greater liklihood of the toughest teams meeting later on the trail.
What if each of the sites were determined ahead of time then we seed the teams in that sectional and assign them similar to team sports. In many cases that also takes care of the individuals though it wouldn't be perfect. Then we work around the school district's seeds that are hosting.
Regional A - Seed 1, 8, 9, 16, 17, 24, 25
Regional B Seed 2, 7, 10, 15, 18, 23, 26
Regional C Seed 3, 6, 11, 14, 19,22,27
Regional D Seed 4, 5, 12, 13, 20, 21, 28
That would be the basic premise, but if the host school was one of the seeds then that group with the corresponding seed would go to that regional.
A lot of advantages to this balance. Basketball makes it work, I think wrestling could.
EXACTLY.
Incredibly hard to make it 100% even for all individuals, but if you at least divide the top teams that would make a huge difference. At least get the top 8 seperated so you get the best teams to team sectionals.
Quote from: wrastle63 on February 18, 2020, 10:45:11 AM
EXACTLY.
Incredibly hard to make it 100% even for all individuals, but if you at least divide the top teams that would make a huge difference. At least get the top 8 seperated so you get the best teams to team sectionals.
Anything to prevent the situation we are in now with D1. Mukwonago, Kaukauna, Burlington, and Bay Port. Two of the top 6 teams in state will get bounced in Sectional matches. And, let us not forget about De Pere (#5 last week) that couldn't make it out of it's Regional (lost to Kaukauna at individual regional). So, all in, 3 of the top 6 teams would be out before the final 8.
Quote from: NoFooForU on February 18, 2020, 11:03:04 AM
Quote from: wrastle63 on February 18, 2020, 10:45:11 AM
EXACTLY.
Incredibly hard to make it 100% even for all individuals, but if you at least divide the top teams that would make a huge difference. At least get the top 8 seperated so you get the best teams to team sectionals.
Anything to prevent the situation we are in now with D1. Mukwonago, Kaukauna, Burlington, and Bay Port. Two of the top 6 teams in state will get bounced in Sectional matches. And, let us not forget about De Pere (#5 last week) that couldn't make it out of it's Regional (lost to Kaukauna at individual regional). So, all in, 3 of the top 6 teams would be out before the final 8.
In D2, in the last rankings prior to Regionals, 6 of the top 12 teams were in the same sectional. 3 of those teams got bounced in Regionals (Freedom, Luxemburg-Casco, Wittenberg-Birnamwood, all losing to other ranked teams at regionals), and Oconto Falls entered the current rankings, so 4 teams at Team Sectionals, all ranked, 3 get bounced, 1 gets to move to state. I don't know how you fix any of that until the WIAA decides it cares about more than finding the best team, and outside of the way the Regional champion is picked, the current system does that. As fans, coaches, and wrestlers, we care more about the advancement to sectionals and state than the WIAA seems to.. The big hole with their stance is picking the best Regional dual team based on an individual tourney, which in some cases might actually eliminate a dual team with a better chance of winning a state title.
Need to eliminate individual regionals.
D1-16 man brackets, must win first match (make quarters) to wrestle back.
D2/3-32 man brackets, must also advance to quarters to wrestle back.
Quote from: Numbers on February 18, 2020, 11:57:43 AM
Need to eliminate individual regionals.
D1-16 man brackets, must win first match (make quarters) to wrestle back.
D2/3-32 man brackets, must also advance to quarters to wrestle back.
My point is why have #1 wrestle against #16 in first round- We all know what that result will be. Why have #1 wrestle against #32?
Wouldn't the bottom 50% just rather against each other for extra quality matches versus being a sacrificial lamb for the top seeds to pad their record?
You could even give all wrestlers the choice? Do you want to wrestle in the gold division to try to make it to state or would you rather wrestle in the silver division. I would bet more would choose silver division than the gold division.
We need more "silver" divisions at all tournaments. I think it would help with growth of wrestlers and improve retention.
Quote from: NoFooForU on February 18, 2020, 11:03:04 AM
Quote from: wrastle63 on February 18, 2020, 10:45:11 AM
EXACTLY.
Incredibly hard to make it 100% even for all individuals, but if you at least divide the top teams that would make a huge difference. At least get the top 8 seperated so you get the best teams to team sectionals.
Anything to prevent the situation we are in now with D1. Mukwonago, Kaukauna, Burlington, and Bay Port. Two of the top 6 teams in state will get bounced in Sectional matches. And, let us not forget about De Pere (#5 last week) that couldn't make it out of it's Regional (lost to Kaukauna at individual regional). So, all in, 3 of the top 6 teams would be out before the final 8.
DePere actually got beat by Bay Port in their regional at Green Bay Preble. However, Kimberly - another solid team - did get beat by Kaukauna at the Kimberly regional. I do like what Minnesota does with team sectionals - and then team and individual state on the same weekend. I am sure there are some negatives I am missing.
Quote from: madeyson on February 18, 2020, 01:33:07 PM
Quote from: NoFooForU on February 18, 2020, 11:03:04 AM
Quote from: wrastle63 on February 18, 2020, 10:45:11 AM
EXACTLY.
Incredibly hard to make it 100% even for all individuals, but if you at least divide the top teams that would make a huge difference. At least get the top 8 seperated so you get the best teams to team sectionals.
Yes DePere edged out by 2.5 points at regionals by Bayport, a team that lost the dual 40-27. With 12 of those 27 by forfeit, though 6 were going to happen anyway. There has to be a better system than one that leaves the fifth ranked team home on Tuesday
Anything to prevent the situation we are in now with D1. Mukwonago, Kaukauna, Burlington, and Bay Port. Two of the top 6 teams in state will get bounced in Sectional matches. And, let us not forget about De Pere (#5 last week) that couldn't make it out of it's Regional (lost to Kaukauna at individual regional). So, all in, 3 of the top 6 teams would be out before the final 8.
DePere actually got beat by Bay Port in their regional at Green Bay Preble. However, Kimberly - another solid team - did get beat by Kaukauna at the Kimberly regional. I do like what Minnesota does with team sectionals - and then team and individual state on the same weekend. I am sure there are some negatives I am missing.
So wrestling is hurting for numbers and you want to allow State tournament participation by excluding a larger portion of wrestlers? Or categorizing them by records? ::)
How about the kid that got hurt in football rehabs to come back and could place state but his record is non-existent. Exclude him?
How about the kid that wrestles nothing but top,tier competition record Amy not reflect it but he is good wrestler put him the silver division? Let a kid go on that has a 40-1 record but wrestled all weak tournaments? Gold division?
My goodness just take a week or so and enjoy the ride, let this thing play out .....
Quote from: ramjet on February 18, 2020, 02:07:54 PM
So wrestling is hurting for numbers and you want to allow State tournament participation by excluding a larger portion of wrestlers? Or categorizing them by records? ::)
How about the kid that got hurt in football rehabs to come back and could place state but his record is non-existent. Exclude him?
How about the kid that wrestles nothing but top,tier competition record Amy not reflect it but he is good wrestler put him the silver division? Let a kid go on that has a 40-1 record but wrestled all weak tournaments? Gold division?
My goodness just take a week or so and enjoy the ride, let this thing play out .....
Amen.
Thank you madeyson. my information was flawed, but you saw my point and helped the conversation by clearing it up.
Quote from: ramjet on February 18, 2020, 02:07:54 PM
So wrestling is hurting for numbers and you want to allow State tournament participation by excluding a larger portion of wrestlers? Or categorizing them by records? ::)
How about the kid that got hurt in football rehabs to come back and could place state but his record is non-existent. Exclude him?
How about the kid that wrestles nothing but top,tier competition record Amy not reflect it but he is good wrestler put him the silver division? Let a kid go on that has a 40-1 record but wrestled all weak tournaments? Gold division?
My goodness just take a week or so and enjoy the ride, let this thing play out .....
None of those wrestlers would be eliminated from trying to qualify for state in any system I would support. I would never want to eliminate any wrestler with goals of making it to state. Nobody is going to eliminate a kid like Mesenbrink or a kid that goes out and wrestles a tough schedule. But that is 30% of varsity wrestlers at most. We are not going to lose those wrestlers. Wrestling does have a huge retention problem amongst that other 70%. Heck I would just let the wrestlers choose which division "gold" or "silver" based on what there goals are and how they would like to end the year. Ask the wrestlers if they want to go wrestle the #1 seed or would they rather end the year with matches against kids similar in talent. Look at all the kids that did not qualify for sectionals and how their season ends. Think about those that did qualify for sectionals and know they have no chance of winning their first match on Saturday and will be one and done. Talk to those kids and I bet they would choose to wrestle in a silver bracket instead and have a chance to have some quality matches with hope of getting their hand raised a couple more times.
To me it is a win-win. Good for the lower tier wrestlers and better for the upper tier wrestlers because they can wrestle a supersectional all in one day and not have geography be as big of a factor. Wrestling wins overall because it frees up a weekend for all or better yet allows time for a team dual state tournament process that is more fair.
Quote from: ramjet on February 18, 2020, 02:07:54 PM
My goodness just take a week or so and enjoy the ride, let this thing play out .....
You state "enjoy the ride". My point is that facts prove that many are not "enjoying the ride" because retention of wrestlers AND coaches is a problem.
I understand 16 does not want to make weight to wrestle 1. But if there was no regional team points to be earned to qualify for team sectionals, that kid with actual match wins you can count on one hand probably stays home. Yet some kids won regionals this week by just making weight.
I doubt the WIAA will set standards to qualify for individual regionals. There are slot(s) for each varsity competitor per team. It is the team coach who decides if someone enters or not.
The dearth of coaches is from too much regulation and record keeping (weight certification, weight descent plans, etc.). Your system in WI is more onerous than ours in MN. If I had to do all the trackwrestling stuff my assistant does I would simply not coach at all.
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 18, 2020, 04:17:47 PM
Quote from: ramjet on February 18, 2020, 02:07:54 PM
My goodness just take a week or so and enjoy the ride, let this thing play out .....
You state "enjoy the ride". My point is that facts prove that many are not "enjoying the ride" because retention of wrestlers AND coaches is a problem.
I don't agree with you Doc on Gold and Silver divisions. We don't need any more of the everybody gets a trophy thing. In my opinion that is where the numbers dropping thing is all coming from. Could you imagine if you did this in other sports. You loose your first playoff game in football and then you get to go play again? Again my opinion is you take away from the "champion" by watering it down with more levels.
Quote from: missinghome on February 18, 2020, 08:15:02 PM
I don't agree with you Doc on Gold and Silver divisions. We don't need any more of the everybody gets a trophy thing. In my opinion that is where the numbers dropping thing is all coming from. Could you imagine if you did this in other sports. You loose your first playoff game in football and then you get to go play again? Again my opinion is you take away from the "champion" by watering it down with more levels.
Wait, wait, wait.. WHAT ABOUT DOUBLE ELIMINATION?
Quote from: TomM on February 18, 2020, 08:30:13 PM
Quote from: missinghome on February 18, 2020, 08:15:02 PM
I don't agree with you Doc on Gold and Silver divisions. We don't need any more of the everybody gets a trophy thing. In my opinion that is where the numbers dropping thing is all coming from. Could you imagine if you did this in other sports. You loose your first playoff game in football and then you get to go play again? Again my opinion is you take away from the "champion" by watering it down with more levels.
Wait, wait, wait.. WHAT ABOUT DOUBLE ELIMINATION?
Has not been at D1 sectionals in over 3 decades.
And also missing at D1 state for 4 per bracket.
Should be added for state but at least super sectionals could have wrestlebacks for top 8.
Quote from: missinghome on February 18, 2020, 08:15:02 PM
I don't agree with you Doc on Gold and Silver divisions. We don't need any more of the everybody gets a trophy thing. In my opinion that is where the numbers dropping thing is all coming from. Could you imagine if you did this in other sports. You loose your first playoff game in football and then you get to go play again? Again my opinion is you take away from the "champion" by watering it down with more levels.
Football allows this. If you don't qualify for the playoffs you can schedule another game against a different team that also did not make the playoffs. College wrestling tournaments do this.
I agree with you that everyone does not deserve a trophy. That is why I don't think every wrestler or team should qualify for the championship postseason. But I do believe that every athlete and team likes to compete and have fun especially if they know they might have a chance to get a victory.
I am just not into wasting time with matchups that have a 99% probability of outcome and I don't think the loser in these matchups is having any fun. This is an individual tournament. In a dual it is much different because it is all about the team and a wrestler does not have to win to help his team.
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 18, 2020, 04:17:47 PM
Quote from: ramjet on February 18, 2020, 02:07:54 PM
My goodness just take a week or so and enjoy the ride, let this thing play out .....
You state "enjoy the ride". My point is that facts prove that many are not "enjoying the ride" because retention of wrestlers AND coaches is a problem.
If that s the case then we would only have those who qualified for state come back each year. Yet new wrestlers join and some quit. But that's anything in life. Your thinking is flawed if you think 70% are NOT enjoying the ride. Maybe not enjoying the fact they didn't make it to state. The great thing about the sport is many come back and keep trying or they reach other goals acceptable to them. 70% my goodness that is ridiculous ...... ::)
Completely agree with your recommendations. The current format is broken and does not allow for the best wrestlers and teams to move forward to the state tournament. Case in point is Arrowhead. They are no way in the top tier of teams in the state and do not deserve to be in the state team tournament, but they benefit because they are constantly put in weak regionals/sectionals. There are plenty of higher ranked teams that will not make the tourney because they are in tough Regionals/Sectionals.
We need to force the WIAA to make a change
Quote from: YAAFAHB on February 20, 2020, 09:12:28 AM
Completely agree with your recommendations. The current format is broken and does not allow for the best wrestlers and teams to move forward to the state tournament. Case in point is Arrowhead. They are no way in the top tier of teams in the state and do not deserve to be in the state team tournament, but they benefit because they are constantly put in weak regionals/sectionals. There are plenty of higher ranked teams that will not make the tourney because they are in tough Regionals/Sectionals.
We need to force the WIAA to make a change
A couple things here.... I would insert the word "all" into your second sentence...
"The current format is broken and does not allow
all for the best wrestlers and teams to move forward..."
This would be more accurate.
Second point is regarding Arrowhead... They are one of the best teams in the State. They have 6-7 kids highly ranked and may end up with more than one State champ (O'Toole is a given). Not every team is capable of fielding 14 kids that are highly regarded. This is rarely the case. But, I do think Arrowhead has more success as a tournament team than a dual team, mostly because they have 3-4 hammers in their line up that will advance in a bracket and get those extra bonus points.
Do I think they benefit from getting in a lessor Regional, yes. But that doesn't mean they are any less of a top tier team.
Quote from: NoFooForU on February 20, 2020, 09:35:59 AM
Quote from: YAAFAHB on February 20, 2020, 09:12:28 AM
Second point is regarding Arrowhead... They are one of the best teams in the State. They have 6-7 kids highly ranked and may end up with more than one State champ (O'Toole is a given). Not every team is capable of fielding 14 kids that are highly regarded. This is rarely the case. But, I do think Arrowhead has more success as a tournament team than a dual team, mostly because they have 3-4 hammers in their line up that will advance in a bracket and get those extra bonus points.
Do I think they benefit from getting in a lessor Regional, yes. But that doesn't mean they are any less of a top tier team.
I should clarify. They are a good individual team, but not a good dual team and that is the problem with the current format of who gets into the State Team Tournament. There are plenty of teams better of them, who are in the same location within the state, that deserve to be in the state team tournament more than Arrowhead.
Quote from: YAAFAHB on February 20, 2020, 09:44:17 AM
There are plenty of teams better of them, who are in the same location within the state, that deserve to be in the state team tournament more than Arrowhead.
??? ???
The only team that can make a claim would be Burlington. That ride ended.