Question for the group that knows more about the WIAA rules regarding eligibility than I do (probably most of you). Here is the scenario - Wrestler is injured first week of the season in a dual meet. Injury is severe to require pins and doctor figures 5-6 weeks of recovery before wrestler can be back on the mat. Wrestler cannot practice...can't run...can't really lift weights because of injury. So wrestler is not practicing...nor has he been medically cleared to wrestle.
Coach puts the kid in he line-up and has him walk out to take he forfeits (the team doesn't "need" the win by forfeit to win the dual meets).
So...is it it in violation of any WIAA rule to line up a wrestler who is not medically cleared to practice (much less compete) to receive forfeits or does the WIAA not address this type of eligibility issue? Don't want to run into something at the end of the season like DePere did last year.
Thanks for your input/thoughts
I would say no. It is more of an ethical question as to why you would do that. The only purpose would be to improve the wrestlers record by taking forfeits.
I don't think the WIAA would have a rule regarding this. If they had someone they can run out their the wrestler would have to medically default. Ethically I don't believe it is right, but he made weight and met all the requirements. I get the coach wanting to pad his record for when he comes back, but again ethically it is not right, maybe run it past your AD to see how they feel about this.
Pretty low by the coach, but I have seen coaches do it before as well! I believe it is in the rule book that no one should weigh in unless they are able to compete.
Quote from: numberone on December 22, 2017, 08:43:31 AM
It's in the rule book
numberone...could you or wrastle63 tell me where to find reference to this in the rule book? Thanks
Consider this, wrestler made weight. If the kid is totally committed to team, at practice everyday, made the grades to be eligible, following code conduct rules, etc.., he is doing what he can to support team during this difficult time in his short career. Why deny him the opportunity to help team out?
I don't have a rule book in front of me, but I think it says something that addresses the issue. Something like a team will not enter someone who is not eligible to wrestle. That is vague language, but I would say it applies here.
Quote from: Ghetto on December 24, 2017, 09:21:31 AM
I don't have a rule book in front of me, but I think it says something that addresses the issue. Something like a team will not enter someone who is not eligible to wrestle. That is vague language, but I would say it applies here.
Yes basically if they are not eligible they shouldn't step on the scale let alone the mat.
How do you get access to a rule book?
Do wrestlers have to make scratch weight to wrestle at weight class at some point in the season?
For example must a wrestler make 106 at some time in the season to wrestle at 106 after the weight allowance is available?
Quote from: thequad on December 24, 2017, 12:08:17 PM
How do you get access to a rule book?
Do wrestlers have to make scratch weight to wrestle at weight class at some point in the season?
For example must a wrestler make 106 at some time in the season to wrestle at 106 after the weight allowance is available?
The school orders them for us.
No. Kids do not have to make scratch weight to get the two pounds after Christmas or the third pound in February. They DO have to body fat test before Dec. 25th to get those pounds however.
Quote from: thequad on December 24, 2017, 12:08:17 PM
How do you get access to a rule book?
Do wrestlers have to make scratch weight to wrestle at weight class at some point in the season?
For example must a wrestler make 106 at some time in the season to wrestle at 106 after the weight allowance is available?
This might help ya, bud!
https://www.wiaawi.org/Sports/Wrestling/RulesRegulations.aspx
The only part in the rule book that I know about that might apply this is Rule 1-3-7. "Prior to the wrestling the head coach shall verify that all wrestlers will be in proper uniform,properly groomed,properly equipped, and ready to wrestle."
Our trainer said only concussion protocol makes a wrestler ineligible. I think we've all seen or heard about the kid with his knee wrapped up and braced wrestling till he can't stand anymore.
Thanks, guys!
Quote from: mhsfan2 on December 24, 2017, 04:05:45 PM
Our trainer said only concussion protocol makes a wrestler ineligible. I think we've all seen or heard about the kid with his knee wrapped up and braced wrestling till he can't stand anymore.
It seems the question isn't about a kid that is wrestling but shouldn't be. The question is in regards to an athlete that may not be medically cleared to wrestle but is lining up to take forfeits for the team.
In Woody's answer what does "ready to wrestle" really mean? I take it as ready to compete. So that would tell me that this coach/school is in voilation if the wrestler is not medially cleared.
Does the WIAA really NOT have a clear rule that addresses an athlete must be medically cleared before returning to competition after an injury?
I have to find my rule book but it sure would seem the WIAA would want to protect the athlete. Otherwise any over zealous parent or coach could push a kid back out into competition before they are medically cleared to do so. And if that is the case who is responsible if the kid gets hurt? The parent? They would have to sign off a lot of legal paperwork to make sure the school or coach is not held liable because schools and coaches make it very clear that the decision on who competes is theirs and not the parents.
Seems awful risky on the schools part and a bit irresponsible for the WIAA not to have addressed this. Boy...I would have the AD put this back to the WIAA before I line that kid up.
Would it also be legal to fat test a kid at every weight to have them available to take forfeits even if they don't participate in a single practice the entire year and don't know how to wrestle?
Quote from: stbird on December 26, 2017, 01:24:45 PM
Would it also be legal to fat test a kid at every weight to have them available to take forfeits even if they don't participate in a single practice the entire year and don't know how to wrestle?
Well based on the rule (or lack thereof)...sure. I have not looked at the rule book myself yet. I find it amazing if the WIAA does not address this topic.
Ethics issue; but not a legal one, me thinks. Hard to prove that a kid is not medically cleared. The burden of proof would be on the third party. HIPAA will be the blockade.
Quote from: bigG on December 27, 2017, 10:30:11 AM
Ethics issue; but not a legal one, me thinks. Hard to prove that a kid is not medically cleared. The burden of proof would be on the third party. HIPAA will be the blockade.
That's a good point, but the NFL seems to trample all over HIPAA.
While a long time ago, I broke my hand in the fall of my senior year and the school wouldn't let me on the mat until a doctor "cleared" me. Now, I don't exactly know what "cleared" means nor do I know whether the barrier came at the school level or the WIAA level. But I do know that my coach would have likely fought any such barriers if they weren't formal rules. But again, a long time ago.
Quote from: bigG on December 27, 2017, 10:30:11 AM
Ethics issue; but not a legal one, me thinks. Hard to prove that a kid is not medically cleared. The burden of proof would be on the third party. HIPAA will be the blockade.
HIPPA? I could see maybe but the school requires a pass for a concussion test. No HIPPA issues on that. And I don't think it would be a HIPPA issue if the school (and WIAA) require a medical release on file to be able to return to practice and/or competition. Kid has to pass a physical to be elegible to compete in HS sports. No HIPPA issues regarding that.
My kid got injured and the school required a note from the doctor that stated he was cleared to return. So I don't think HIPPA comes into play. And "cleared"...IMO is twofold 1) a medical doctor has signed off on return to activity and 2) the athlete can compete without limitations.
If the athlete can't compete in a match then he shouldn't be lined up to receive a forfeit. Say it a different way...what would happen if the kid walked up to the table to receive a forfeit and the opposing coach sent out somebody they didn't line up but did weigh in at the weight class. If the wrestler would then have to forfeit he shouldn't have been there in the first place.
I agree...it is an ethics thing (now) but if this is being done then the WIAA should set the standards. I read the rule book last night. It is surprising how little the rules address actual athlete health beyond a nod to hydration and illegal holds.
If a wrestler is ineligible for any reason they are not allowed to weigh in or accept a forfeit. This includes being being medically cleared. Thus if a wrestler is not medically cleared they are ineligible. This can be found in the winter season regulations on the wiaa website. Following copied from the WIAA season regulations:
"d. In addition, during the regular season and tournament series, wrestlers who are ineligible (for any reason) may not participate
in pre-meet warm-ups or any pre-meet activity, including weigh-ins, during the period of ineligibility. Violation of this
provision will result in the deletion of all individual and team points for that weight class and the wrestler will be subject to
suspension as outlined in 8.a."
Good luck to everyone the rest of the season
Quote from: kneeslide on December 27, 2017, 12:59:18 PM
If a wrestler is ineligible for any reason they are not allowed to weigh in or accept a forfeit. This includes being being medically cleared. Thus if a wrestler is not medically cleared they are ineligible. This can be found in the winter season regulations on the wiaa website. Hope this helps.
Good luck to everyone the rest of the season
How can one prove either medically unclear to begin with or not yet cleared as the issue progresses?
Not trying to be a jerk; but I deal with HIPAA enough at my job that it can be obstructive to cleaning up this ethics issue.
Quote from: bigG on December 27, 2017, 01:12:06 PM
Quote from: kneeslide on December 27, 2017, 12:59:18 PM
If a wrestler is ineligible for any reason they are not allowed to weigh in or accept a forfeit. This includes being being medically cleared. Thus if a wrestler is not medically cleared they are ineligible. This can be found in the winter season regulations on the wiaa website. Hope this helps.
Good luck to everyone the rest of the season
How can one prove either medically unclear to begin with or not yet cleared as the issue progresses?
Not trying to be a jerk; but I deal with HIPAA enough at my job that it can be obstructive to cleaning up this ethics issue.
I would think that you would report it to the athletic director and the WIAA and if it is proven that they are not medically cleared then they would deduct the team points earned by the ineligible wrestler. As a referee we do not get involved. We would not ask for the medical clearance papers as we just weigh in the wrestlers and assume everyone is eligible based on the coach's confirmation.
Quote from: kneeslide on December 27, 2017, 12:59:18 PM
If a wrestler is ineligible for any reason they are not allowed to weigh in or accept a forfeit. This includes being being medically cleared. Thus if a wrestler is not medically cleared they are ineligible. This can be found in the winter season regulations on the wiaa website. Following copied from the WIAA season regulations:
"d. In addition, during the regular season and tournament series, wrestlers who are ineligible (for any reason) may not participate
in pre-meet warm-ups or any pre-meet activity, including weigh-ins, during the period of ineligibility. Violation of this
provision will result in the deletion of all individual and team points for that weight class and the wrestler will be subject to
suspension as outlined in 8.a."
Good luck to everyone the rest of the season
The section you cut & pasted is under
8. FLAGRANT OR UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT AND INELIGIBLE ATHLETES
I don't see anything in those regs about being medically cleared other than in the concussion section.
I agree that it's unethical but I don't see a regulation, which is the issue when you try to regulate ethics.
Quote from: imwi on December 27, 2017, 01:33:11 PM
Quote from: kneeslide on December 27, 2017, 12:59:18 PM
If a wrestler is ineligible for any reason they are not allowed to weigh in or accept a forfeit. This includes being being medically cleared. Thus if a wrestler is not medically cleared they are ineligible. This can be found in the winter season regulations on the wiaa website. Following copied from the WIAA season regulations:
"d. In addition, during the regular season and tournament series, wrestlers who are ineligible (for any reason) may not participate
in pre-meet warm-ups or any pre-meet activity, including weigh-ins, during the period of ineligibility. Violation of this
provision will result in the deletion of all individual and team points for that weight class and the wrestler will be subject to
suspension as outlined in 8.a."
Good luck to everyone the rest of the season
The section you cut & pasted is under
8. FLAGRANT OR UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT AND INELIGIBLE ATHLETES
I don't see anything in those regs about being medically cleared other than in the concussion section.
I agree that it's unethical but I don't see a regulation, which is the issue when you try to regulate ethics.
Look at the statement that I cut and pasted. It states "wrestlers who are ineligible (for any reason) may not participate". This includes all INELIGIBLE ATHLETES for any reason. If they are not medically cleared then they are ineligible.
That's your interpretation, which is my point, it's not specifically stated anywhere, we (the good guys) are all just saying that's the way it should be. I'm not disagreeing that he should be ineligible, I'm just saying that it's not stated in any of the regs. I took "ineligible" in that context to mean code violation or something similar since it's in with Flagrant Misconducts.
8. FLAGRANT OR UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT AND INELIGIBLE ATHLETES
a. A student, disqualified from a contest for flagrant or unsportsmanlike conduct, is suspended from interscholastic
competition for no less than the next competitive event (but not less than one complete game or meet).
b. Athletes who are ineligible during the WIAA Tournament (for any reason) may not appear in uniform, participate in warm-ups,
and may not participate in the awards ceremony at the WIAA Tournament. Exception: An injured athlete will be allowed to
participate in the awards ceremony provided he/she is included in the roster allotment for that game. During the regular season,
schools should establish their own policy as to whether athletes are allowed to be in uniform and participate in pregame and
postgame activity, if they are ineligible to compete due to flagrant and/or unsportsmanlike conduct, athletic and/or academic
code violations, or for any other reason.
c. Any player who in the judgment of the official, intentionally spits on, strikes, slaps, kicks, pushes or aggressively physically
contacts an official at any time shall be immediately ineligible for competition a minimum of 90 calendar days from the date
of the confrontation. In addition, the player is ineligible to compete for the first 25% of the next season in that same sport.
d. In addition, during the regular season and tournament series, wrestlers who are ineligible (for any reason) may not participate
in pre-meet warm-ups or any pre-meet activity, including weigh-ins, during the period of ineligibility. Violation of this
provision will result in the deletion of all individual and team points for that weight class and the wrestler will be subject to
suspension as outlined in 8.a.
Quote from: bigG on December 27, 2017, 01:12:06 PM
Quote from: kneeslide on December 27, 2017, 12:59:18 PM
If a wrestler is ineligible for any reason they are not allowed to weigh in or accept a forfeit. This includes being being medically cleared. Thus if a wrestler is not medically cleared they are ineligible. This can be found in the winter season regulations on the wiaa website. Hope this helps.
Good luck to everyone the rest of the season
How can one prove either medically unclear to begin with or not yet cleared as the issue progresses?
Not trying to be a jerk; but I deal with HIPAA enough at my job that it can be obstructive to cleaning up this ethics issue.
BigG...nope, you raise a valid point. HIPAA is very touchy about what you can and cannot do. I spent a time dealing with medical records and your hands were tied very tightly. But a parent can sign off on releasing the information to a school/trainer/coach/athletic director. I am not saying you need to give all the information but simply ask for a "medically cleared to compete" form from a doctor once the injured athlete is cleared.
I am actually surprised that schools do not require this to cover their own butts. Say my kid breaks something. My kid tells the coach he is clear (before he really should be). The coach puts him back in the line-up and he gets re-injured. Who is responsible?
The parent? Nope...parent didn't tell the coach anything
The kid? Nope...he is a minor. He can't make a decision based on his health as a minor.
The coach? Probably somewhat...
The school? That is who the lawyers (and maybe insurance companies) are going to go after
Why wouldn't a school cover their butts by simply having a release on file that the athlete has been cleared to compete? I am not an expert but I don't think that would infringe on any HIPPA laws.
Does your school know every athlete that gets injured?
Quote from: imwi on December 27, 2017, 01:49:53 PM
That's your interpretation, which is my point, it's not specifically stated anywhere, we (the good guys) are all just saying that's the way it should be. I'm not disagreeing that he should be ineligible, I'm just saying that it's not stated in any of the regs. I took "ineligible" in that context to mean code violation or something similar since it's in with Flagrant Misconducts.
8. FLAGRANT OR UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT AND INELIGIBLE ATHLETES
a. A student, disqualified from a contest for flagrant or unsportsmanlike conduct, is suspended from interscholastic
competition for no less than the next competitive event (but not less than one complete game or meet).
b. Athletes who are ineligible during the WIAA Tournament (for any reason) may not appear in uniform, participate in warm-ups,
and may not participate in the awards ceremony at the WIAA Tournament. Exception: An injured athlete will be allowed to
participate in the awards ceremony provided he/she is included in the roster allotment for that game. During the regular season,
schools should establish their own policy as to whether athletes are allowed to be in uniform and participate in pregame and
postgame activity, if they are ineligible to compete due to flagrant and/or unsportsmanlike conduct, athletic and/or academic
code violations, or for any other reason.
c. Any player who in the judgment of the official, intentionally spits on, strikes, slaps, kicks, pushes or aggressively physically
contacts an official at any time shall be immediately ineligible for competition a minimum of 90 calendar days from the date
of the confrontation. In addition, the player is ineligible to compete for the first 25% of the next season in that same sport.
d. In addition, during the regular season and tournament series, wrestlers who are ineligible (for any reason) may not participate
in pre-meet warm-ups or any pre-meet activity, including weigh-ins, during the period of ineligibility. Violation of this
provision will result in the deletion of all individual and team points for that weight class and the wrestler will be subject to
suspension as outlined in 8.a.
imwi - are you saying the "good guys" do not want to address something like this and prefer to leave it vague so it can be hard to interpret and ultimately a minor athlete could be put in harms way by an unethical coach? Or are you saying the "good guys" would never put an athlete in the line up who is not clear to compete?
I am just picking on you and showing how a statement in writing can quickly be interpreted incorrectly.
It is an interpretation. So the question is who would the WIAA interpret this? Does "ineligible (for any reason)" include medical reasons? And does "FLAGRANT OR UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT AND INELIGIBLE ATHLETES" include athletes who are ineligible to compete due to medical ineligibility?
Touche'
I think if it got reported to the WIAA, there would be action taken. It's clearly wrong, just as it's wrong to fake an injury to avoid getting pinned, etc, but we know it happens.
Quote from: imwi on December 27, 2017, 01:55:08 PM
Does your school know every athlete that gets injured?
Dang...I would hope so. Okay...maybe not somebody that got injured outside of the school (I can find a loophole in any scenario if I try hard enough).
But oneshot's example states the athlete was injured IN a dual meet. I would hope the school knows he is injured if he was hurt in a meet. Also...a coach isn't blind. Kid gets in a car accident...it gets back to the coach. So yeah...I do think the coach knows the athletes that get injured.
Sorry, I didn't mean the coach, he obviously put this kid out there knowing he was injured. I meant the administration, as in the AD and such. Maybe I need to go back and read the original post. I thought the coach put the kid out there to take the forfeit knowing the kid was injured and couldn't wrestle. Obviously he's not concerned about what's right & wrong and he's not going to worry about lawyers coming after the school apparently.
As the heading says it states "AND Ineligible Athletes"
"8. FLAGRANT OR UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT AND INELIGIBLE ATHLETES"
That being said an athlete who is not medically cleared is not eligible to compete. I am sure if you called Wade Labecki he would state the same thing. At the end of the day it would have to be reported to the WIAA and they would rule on it. As I mentioned referees do not get involved.
Have a Happy New Year
Thanks for the input kneeslide. I would agree that a ref would "assume" anyone who steps on a scale is eligible.
I wouldn't want a school to get in trouble and I would also hate to see something like what happened with De Pere last year happen again. Maybe this is different and maybe it would only affect the dual meets that were wrestled but it would suck if it got out before regionals and this was because a coach wanted to pad an athletes record. It would seem very pointless and unfair to the other athletes on the team.
Thanks for all the input from everyone.
Quote from: kneeslide on December 27, 2017, 02:15:54 PM
As the heading says it states "AND Ineligible Athletes"
"8. FLAGRANT OR UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT AND INELIGIBLE ATHLETES"
That being said an athlete who is not medically cleared is not eligible to compete. I am sure if you called Wade Labecki he would state the same thing. At the end of the day it would have to be reported to the WIAA and they would rule on it. As I mentioned referees do not get involved.
Have a Happy New Year
Agree 100% on calling Wade
Is calling Wade the best answer for oneshot? In my experience unless oneshot is a coach or AD Wade will tell him/her that the WIAA responds to the AD not to parents. So should oneshot put the question to the AD and let the AD handle it? I have never received a straight answer from the WIAA other than "WIAA member schools police themselves and are responsible to enforce the rules"
This clearly an ethics issue. It's up to the parents and coaches based on the recommendations of doctors. There are wrestlers who wrestle injured (e.g. Spencer Lee in PA finals). It really comes down to the coach deciding if the other team had somebody at that weight would the wrestler compete? The only way to know for sure is make sure you have a full roster.
This is clearly not an issue the WIAA is prepared to cope with. Nobody can require an individual's doctor to provide private patient information; the doctor is under no obligations the WIAA might demand. Also, there any standard by which a kid is declared "not eligible" due to a medical condition (other than say the dreaded skin conditions?). Is a kid declared ineligible if he has a hang nail? How about if he has a broken leg? No where in the WIAA guidelines are these issues addressed. So, if I am a doctor and a parent comes to me asking me to sign some WIAA document (which really doesn't even exist) saying that a given kid is cleared to compete, my answer is "try someplace else." There is no reason in the world I should open myself up to that kind of liability if I were the doctor(what if the kid gets hurt in the next match?). And as noted above, there really is no "cleared to compete" form that the WIAA provides to doctors. So what constitutes a "cleared to compete" notice?
It is all very slippery and undefined. If I am a doctor I would simply refuse to participate in the process and I can't believe the WIAA has any formal process in place. My conclusion is that this is a house of cards that the WIAA does not deal with...and hopes no one actually exams very closely.
So, back to the original question - yes, a kid can step on the mat and claim a forfeit even if he couldn't physically perform - nothing exists to stop him (if I was a ref I wouldn't touch this one with a ten foot pole). Make weight, be academically eligible, comply with the school's code of conduct...who is going to step in to block the claiming of the forfeit points?
npope...how would this be different than being cleared by a concussion protocol? A trainer or doctor runs an athlete through a series of test to determine if the athlete is clear to compete after a concussion. I have seen a relapse after an athlete has been cleared by the concussion protocol. Or if a trainer says an athlete can continue to wrestle at a tournament the trainer could potentially open himself to a lawsuit if that athlete were injured more than a basic examination could determine.
So there are potential pitfalls in any scenario. But ignoring doesn't make the situation go away.
You sign a WIAA form on concussions not sprained ankles or broken bones. If a trainer is involved, they will not allow a return to action but even that is up to the school, not smart to go against trainer advice.
Quote from: bulldog on December 27, 2017, 08:25:29 PM
npope...how would this be different than being cleared by a concussion protocol? A trainer or doctor runs an athlete through a series of test to determine if the athlete is clear to compete after a concussion. I have seen a relapse after an athlete has been cleared by the concussion protocol. Or if a trainer says an athlete can continue to wrestle at a tournament the trainer could potentially open himself to a lawsuit if that athlete were injured more than a basic examination could determine.
So there are potential pitfalls in any scenario. But ignoring doesn't make the situation go away.
That is a good question, but bigoil might have answered that in the next post. But the fact is that HIPAA does exist as a Federal law and that law forbids the release of personal medical information without the consent of the patient - period. I don't know exactly what the WIAA or schools are doing within their own settings or what waivers they are requiring kids' parents to sign at the beginning of a season, but without such a waiver process can you think of any way a doctor would publicly comment on the health of a private patient?
If you were a doctor, would you even want to get pulled into a potential lawsuit because the schools/WIAA have some sort of loose (poorly conceived) process for managing the return to competition process? I mean, who actually declares a kid ineligible because of injury? The doctor? The coach? The school? You yourself have a son who has been down this path a couple of times already - has the doctor ever filled out an "ineligible for competition" form that you know of? Has the doctor ever picked up the phone and called the coach? School? WIAA? If I am the doctor's insurance company I would have specific clauses in his/her medical malpractice policy that voids coverage if the doctor does anything like that; that's serious violations of the Federal law. Granted, the doctor may have provided the parent with a note saying that junior has recovered from his "broken finger," but that note is put into the hands of the parent - not anyone else. And too, the note won't make any kind of assessment as to whether junior is fit to wrestle again. I mean, how many doctors do you know that actually know what it means to be "fit" to wrestle? Doctors are (generally) smart people (whose typical exposure to wrestling is the WWE on TV) and so are their insurance carriers. Those carriers specifically delineate what a doctor can and can't say in such communications and you can be sure that insurance carriers are telling doctors to just state the facts - don't pronounce judgments that are beyond their medical training; that would be a law suit waiting to happen.
One earlier poster who is a ref stated that he merely weighs in the kids that step on the scale - nothing more. So, while I understand the well-intentioned motives of the parties involved, there is no formal infrastructure (such as standardized "released for athletic competition" or "not eligible for competition" forms) in place whereby an individual's private medial records are handed over to a public party (school or WIAA) without the specific consent of the student's parents. And too, if I were a doctor and someone put such a form in front of me I wouldn't sign it; it's not my job to make that determination (whether the WIAA wants to pull me into the conversation or not).
Please note that the requirement that all students to provide evidence of having passed an annual physical is different. The school/WIAA is requiring that all school/WIAA sponsored athletes provide such evidence - if someone doesn't want to provide such evidence then the school/WIAA says they can't compete - it is a decision the parents of the kids makes - not the doctor. Parents have the right to make that information public - not the doctor. Also, there is a standard form and process in place collecting that information and waiver agreements and ALL WIAA athletes participate in it. The doctor is making no assertions as to the kid's fitness for a given sport other than to say the kid has two nuggies, no heart murmur, etc. It is that standardization across ALL athletes that makes that intake system feasible; schools have a structured system in place to take in this information. The same cannot be said of the injuries of individual athletes; a school/WIAA simply cannot manage that level of information. Imagine if a coach had to file an official report every time junior had a sprained ankle and couldn't compete for a given event but would be fine next week...simply impossible for a public school to oversee such a system.
So, while I am not overly familiar with the WI school system nor the WIAA specifically (I live out of state), I can say with some certainty (given familiarity with the Federal law and the medical malpractice system) that the necessary web of communication between parents, doctors, schools, and the WIAA would have to be extremely well-developed to actually be able to implement a student-athlete-fit-to-compete system, on a case-by-case basis.
But I could be wrong...as my wife has informed me on at least a couple of occasions.
good points npope...I will throw a wrench in your explanation. You are correct...both our boys had injuries that required a doctor to be involved. One had a torn shoulder muscle and one a torn ligament in the foot. In both cases the school required a doctors clearance before they boys were allowed back to practice and competition. We are fortunate that the doctor we have seen over the years has a history in martial arts and wrestling so he does understand what the sports are. I know that is rare.
But my point is that the school did not know the doctors background and the school required a doctor to clear the boys for return to the sport. That doesn't seem to be that much of an odd request. Also...in the case of the youngest boy the doctor was more than happy to call the school's athletic trainer and discuss the injury and his prognosis (with our okay, of course). He was also open to talking to the AD and the coach if they wanted to discuss it. We were fine with it and gave the okay to the doctor to have these conversations. We probably had to sign some paperwork but no big deal (in my opinion).
Also your point about a coach filing a report when junior sprains an ankle...they sprain an ankle or twist something and in almost every case that I have seen the athlete sees a trainer. The trainer is not an employee of the school but an employee of a clinic. That trainer has to fill out paperwork and file it so the work is done and on file already. The coach isn't the guy that should be dealing with making a medical decision anyway. Why would he want to put himself in a situation where he made the decision that a kid could compete and set himself up for potential litigation? The coach is not a medical expert and by no means should be giving medical advice.That is the job of the trainers and if the trainer does not have enough medical knowledge to make a recommendation then the athlete should be refereed to a doctor.
Passing a physical as required by the WIAA is an example of how things change to look out for the health of the athlete. 50 years ago I don't think (the WIAA was formed in 1895) the WIAA required a physical for athletes in sports. Why would they? Kids showed up and played the sport. But at some point they got this crazy thought that athletes should be physically fit and a doctor should confirm it. About 20 years ago the WIAA did not require wrestlers to pass a hydration test or skin fold to make weight. But after some bad things happened the WIAA thought maybe they should have kids prove they are hydrated and not cutting more weight than they should. Schools do have a structured system to take in this information. They have a system to keep track of annual physicals are on file and parental contact information is updated. They have a system of trainers to review injuries and document the injuries and suggest a rehab regiment.
A trainer has the final say if an athlete is clear to compete or not. I have seen a trainer walk out during a wrestling meet, walk up to the scorers table and tell the official that a kid that was lined up was not cleared to compete. That kid did not compete even though the coach wanted him to. The parents were pissed and said they would sign off to allow the kid to compete. The trainer stood her ground and the athlete did not compete (turned out in this case the athlete was going to take a forfeit)
So I am not saying you are wrong (I will let your wife continue to have that pleasure) but I have seen in my own experience a school require a doctor to clear an athlete before they are allowed back in competition.
I am guessing you are probably right. I am guessing that the WIAA and the schools would rather have a loose involvement in these types of matters so they can pass responsibility onto someone else. They just want to hear from the athlete "I am good to go coach"...
I would assume in all cases schools require any player that consults with a doctor to have a note of clearance to return. This has been my experience. We make this clear with youth coaches as well.
The doctor then has control but the patient could lie (sometimes even without parent knowledge). This is why the school requires note directly from the doctor. If they let an athlete compete (which would include weighing in) without a note of clearance to return they are opening themselves to huge liability.
Losing a lawsuit on player safety would cost a lot of money. That liability could fall directly on the coach and cost him his job.
Thank you DocWrestling...I thought maybe the only two schools my boys have gone to required a doctor clearance to return to competition. So back to the original post from oneshot...is it any violation in regards to the WIAA if a coach lines up a kid for competition who has not been cleared by a doctor to compete? Maybe more specifically if the athlete is under a doctors care.
It's not really any of the doctor's business whether the kid competes or not. The doctor can make a recommendation, but it's up to the kid and the parents whether they follow the recommendation or not. Same with the school. If the kid shows up ready to wrestle he ought to be allowed to wrestle. Schools are getting way to involved in parental decision making.
Quote from: stbird on December 29, 2017, 09:59:31 AM
It's not really any of the doctor's business whether the kid competes or not. The doctor can make a recommendation, but it's up to the kid and the parents whether they follow the recommendation or not. Same with the school. If the kid shows up ready to wrestle he ought to be allowed to wrestle. Schools are getting way to involved in parental decision making.
I am not sure what the law says or what the WIAA rules are but this is not how schools function. Liability and player safety are the most important to schools and better be for coaches.
People keep on bringing up concussions. There is no difference between a concussion or knee injury in terms or getting clearance from a doctor. The doctor and the school are there to protect the athlete from himself and to protect the athlete from his or her parents.
Unfortunately these rules are having the opposite affect on player safety. Athletes are now avoiding reporting injuries and avoiding visiting doctors due to fear of being held out. Some coaches even try to keep their athletes away from trainer. Many athletes know who to go to and who not to go to for medical care based on that doctor's reputation of holding kids out. Some pediatricians are way to cautious and will remove kids for 2 weeks for a mild bruise or sprain.
As far as I know, no athlete is FORCED to seek medical clearance except in cases of a concussion or for skin infection in wrestling. But once an athlete seeks medical consult AND the trainer/school/coach knows about they will and should require a note that clears that athlete to return to activity.
Ultimately a lot of this falls on the coach and trainer. As a coach I would take this very seriously
Doc, Stbird is correct from my experience... there is no note needed after a athlete seeks medical attention, even at the college level. It is up to the athlete/parent and coach to determine when the athlete is ready to compete. Concussion is a different protocol that the trainer has a procedure the athlete needs to complete before they can return. And this is only if a trainer is aware of the concussion and documents it.
Quote from: Tonto on December 29, 2017, 12:54:59 PM
Doc, Stbird is correct from my experience... there is no note needed after a athlete seeks medical attention, even at the college level. It is up to the athlete/parent and coach to determine when the athlete is ready to compete. Concussion is a different protocol that the trainer has a procedure the athlete needs to complete before they can return. And this is only if a trainer is aware of the concussion and documents it.
You could be right but it is not that way around here and I think that would be small minority functioning that way. No coach makes enough money to take a risk and allow an athlete to compete in contrast to medical recommendations. Even if the parent and athlete demand to play it is the coach that will be responsible for player safety.
No player at UW-Madison or for the Packers where they control the health care is going to compete without medical clearance. They may beg to play like Rodgers supposedly did and medical team may cave in but they still need that clearance from the doctors. I bet the Green Bay packers medical team had Rodgers sign a consent form that he understood what harms could come from playing so they could not be sued.
Youth coaches to high school coaches continue to take on more liability with player safety. High schools manage it pretty well. If you are a youth coach you better make sure you are protecting yourself with having concussion forms signed by all athletes and should have liability insurance so you are not risking all.
Quote from: stbird on December 29, 2017, 09:59:31 AM
It's not really any of the doctor's business whether the kid competes or not. The doctor can make a recommendation, but it's up to the kid and the parents whether they follow the recommendation or not. Same with the school. If the kid shows up ready to wrestle he ought to be allowed to wrestle. Schools are getting way to involved in parental decision making.
I think I misread your statement the first time. You are saying that schools should stay out of things that are up to parents to decide? If so...I agree. Yes..a doctor can make a recommendation and I (the parent) can ignore the doctors recommendation. I believe I am the legal guardian of the minor child and that minor child is MY responsibility. I (the parent) accept a lot of responsibility for that child. If he does something illegal I can be held responsible.
But a parent will take recommendations from a professional for the well being of their child. If a doctor say he should not compete and the parent says "he is cleared"...that goes back on the parent...EXCEPT the school says it is the coaches final decision on who competes. So the kid competes and now it is the coach who is held responsible. IF there was a form that was signed off on by parent and/or physician it should clear a coach of responsibility.
I can currently tell a coach all day long that Johnny is clear and is fine. But currently it is the coaches final decision. Thus (I would believe) in a court the school/coach is responsible. I can pressure someone to do something they shouldn't all day long. But I am not responsible for the act just because I pressured the person into doing it. Maybe I am an accomplice but not the main rule breaker.
Quote from: Tonto on December 29, 2017, 12:54:59 PM
Doc, Stbird is correct from my experience... there is no note needed after a athlete seeks medical attention, even at the college level. It is up to the athlete/parent and coach to determine when the athlete is ready to compete. Concussion is a different protocol that the trainer has a procedure the athlete needs to complete before they can return. And this is only if a trainer is aware of the concussion and documents it.
One big difference...at the college level the athlete is a legal adult. A legal adult can make their own decisions. In HS most athletes are minors. There is no need for an athlete to seek medical attention...true. There is also no need for a coach to allow an athlete to compete. A school/coach has all the right to deny allowing the athlete into practice/competition at any time. So very simple...no clearance no competition.
And at the college level, the coach depends on the recommendation from a team of trainers and medical professionals to determine if the athlete can compete. Cousin of mine is a trainer at a UW school. If she says the athlete is not ready to go...the athlete does not go...period. The coach will not overrule that. Imagine the lawsuit a university would face if it got out that the coach went against medical advice. And it doesn't matter if it is a broken finger or a concussion. Or if a doctor said otherwise. If she don't sign off Johnny don't compete. She is the final say...period
That is true. It is the coach and school responsible for player safety.
The opposite would be to simply send the kids out if they are willing to play. No trainers needed anymore. No coaches trained in CPR needed. If the kid gets hurt mom or dad must come out of the stands and take care of them.
We now have trainers almost at all events. Clinics provide trainers because it generates them business and exposure. Trainers provide a system that protects kids from themselves and their parents.
All injuries matter and should be treated like concussions as far as being evaluated and possibly being held out to heal. I do wish more doctors would be a little less cautious and left it up to athlete and parent more often and the better ones do. All the talk is about head injuries and CTE in old football players. The truth is that if you go to NFL hall of fame weekend or talk to past NFL players they complain more about how there ankles, knees, hips, shoulders feel than they do their heads. All injuries can affect rest of life if not handled correctly initially. Playing through extremity pain can have same long term affects. Many limp or have replacements in their 40's.
I have a simple rule. If I think allowing an athlete to play will increase likelihood of long term harm then I will hold them out. If playing will only lead to possible short term aggravation then I leave it up to tolerance of athlete and parent permission.
Dang this thread has gotten long. DocWrestling...good for you. I hope there are more coaches out there like you. You make a great point that this is a HS sport. It is not the olympics or a way of life. Many kids hopefully will look back on their HS wrestling experience fondly and some may be dissapointed because an injury caused them to miss a season or part of a season but it could be worse. I know many people today that have problems because of a HS sports injury. I would rather see my kid be able to walk well in 30 years because a coach kept them out of competition instead of one more win in their HS wrestling career.
I agree with you oneshot. It may be painful. I know my son has sat out much of at least 3 seasons for various medical issues. It held him back but he and I are better for it.