What do we want for the Badger program?

wrestler_73 · January 10, 2024, 11:55:39 AM

I wonder if most people care at all about the Badger wrestling program. In a time period where Wisconsin High School wrestling has some of the best athletes and excitement....the only D-1 program seems pretty irrelevant to most.

Ledger · January 10, 2024, 02:13:36 PM

Hire anybody with WI ties. We've been on the wrong track since they fired Andy Rein.

Ghetto · January 10, 2024, 02:16:36 PM

I think the issue is that we don't support the current guy no matter who he is. Shouldn't we support them until they are gone?

vsmf2010 · January 10, 2024, 07:16:19 PM

Quote from: Ghetto on January 10, 2024, 02:16:36 PMI think the issue is that we don't support the current guy no matter who he is. Shouldn't we support them until they are gone?

My thoughts exactly and I felt the same way when Barry was here!

littleguy301 · January 10, 2024, 09:45:44 PM

Great idea and thoughts.

I wish UW Green Bay had a wrestling program. Maybe that would push the Badger and Green Bay.

We have had and have some outstanding wrestlers over the past few years. Gosh it would be great if a few of them stayed home.

I don't knownthe answer to the question. I wish each athlete in the program the best success possible. Talking crap about the coaches doesn't show great support of the program and for the athletes success.

I for one will talk nothing but positive for the rest of the season about the entire program!

Harris · January 11, 2024, 04:11:51 PM

I want the Badger coaching staff and student athletes to be successful on and off the mat regardless of who is in charge. I really enjoy supporting the home team. With that said, I think the coaching staff has to figure this out considering the data below and the past year with our current Athletic Director (AD) expecting more (Football and Hockey). I know the current coaching staff expects more as well because they have told me this to my face and in direct messages. Look at the difference the current men's hockey coach has made in his first year.

I copied part of Bono's bio on the Badger web page below detailing his success before coming to UW. One thing that struck me when looking up the data is that Bono has never achieved the same level of success at UW (Top UW finish 14th NCAA, 8th Big tourney, no NCAA champs) as his best year at SDSU (Top finish 12th NCAA, one NCAA champ). It is also interesting that Gross (who was a transfer from Iowa) is his only champion over a 14 year period of time. I am also surprised his best Big Ten tournament finish was his first year at UW (7th place in Big). I don't think finishing in the bottom half of the Big tournament is what the AD/Coaching Staff/Fans want long term even if they are finishing higher in the dual standings.

The real question instead of the poll above is how long does the current coaching staff have to make a difference. Currently, they are treading water at about the same level as Davis if I am going to be honest based on the facts below. I would be surprised if this level of performance is acceptable to them or the AD. Can this level of performance be improved without the support of the top clubs in and around the state? Personally, I would love to see the Badgers succeed without the need to bend the knee to any one club coach. The problem with the current situation is that the top AWA wrestlers are going elsewhere and the top Pinnacle guys have always been tough for UW to get and the schools they are going to are consistently outperforming the Badgers on most metrics.

I post this with the utmost respect to the coaching staff (I really like all of them a lot). I think they would agree they haven't gotten it done yet. I heard Bono on a podcast once say Covid derailed their momentum but every team/coach in the country was dealt the same hand and the top programs continue to excel and Covid was not a unique thing for UW. This should not be used as an excuse either.

I also am a little disappointed with the lack of transparency and communication regarding the Regional Training Center (RTC) and the UW team. Since Bono has taken over, a ton of things have happened to the detriment of the program but they were not communicated with the supporters of the RTC or Wisconsin wrestling. Think about this partial list that doesn't even include UW wrestlers/recruits coming and going over the past 5 years:

Sean Smalley (RTC Director) gone without a word
Newt Smerchek (RTC Director? who I love) gone without a word unless I missed it (I had to message him to find out why he wasn't involved any more)
Matt McDonough (UW coach) gone without a word for Gross
Ben Askren (RTC Director/coach) gone without a word
Women's RTC shut down without any warning or communication (What happened?

)
No RTC athletes left except current UW athletes/coaches

I have talked with numerous past RTC athletes and coaches and they have been very honest about what they think happened. If I am hearing these things, and I am not really in the NCAA wrestling community, I wonder what potential recruits and parents are hearing. Why doesn't the current coaching staff keep their supporters aware of these huge changes after they occur? Where is the transparency? Why would someone want to donate to the RTC if they are going to be kept in the dark? Why do I have to personally ask the coaching staff about these touchy subjects instead of them pro-actively communicating with the whole fan base. If they want to build trust with fans, club/high school coaches, and athletes they need to be more transparent and honest about these types of things. Up to this point, it has just been little sound bites here and there that don't really address the multiple elephants in the room. If someone responds to this post and tells me it is none of my business and the coaching staff owes me nothing, my response is that is exactly why the RTC is struggling to support UW wrestling and lacks big time donors. I, for one, do not want to donate to something without some accountability on how those funds are being used and communication about huge changes to the RTC and the program. You can't just cut the women's program and not even address why and still expect support. No communication just fuels conspiracy theories on what is actually going on. In the new world of college sports with Name Image Likeness (NIL) deals going down, how can the RTC/UW attract "mega" donors if they are not communicating what is actually happening. Changing the director/coach of the RTC is big news and needs to be addressed. Bono has been here 5 years and he has already had at least 3 RTC coaches/directors come and go. This is unusual at best and alarming at worst considering the other things that have happened at the same time (Women's RTC dropped).

Before Wisconsin
Bono spent six seasons prior to being hired at Wisconsin as the head coach at South Dakota State, establishing the Jackrabbits as a national contender and a powerhouse in the Big 12, coaching three conference champions in the program's three years in the league.

The Jackrabbits had their best season in the final year under Bono. Two-time All-American Seth Gross - a future Badger All-American and Assistant Coach - won the program's first national title at 133 pounds while the team placed 12th in the NCAA tournament, the highest finish of any Big 12 team.

Bono had coached five All-Americans at South Dakota State, including three in his last season with the Jackrabbits. He produced two the year before, marking the first All-Americans for South Dakota State at the Division I level. Bono had at least one NCAA Qualifier since taking the reins of the program and had a school-record seven in his final tournament with the Jackrabbits. Bono left SDSU with a 64-41 overall record, a total of 24 NCAA qualifiers, five All-Americans and one national champion.

Bono began his head coaching career with three seasons as the head coach at Chattanooga and led the Mocs to three Southern Conference titles, coaching two All-Americans and 19 NCAA qualifiers from 2006-09.

He began his coaching career as an assistant at his alma mater, Iowa State, for nine years and was named the National Wrestling Coaches Association Assistant Coach of the Year in 2002.

YEAR TEAM DUAL PCT. CONF. TOURN. FINISH NCAA CHAMPIONSHIP
2022-23 Wisconsin 8-8 .500 Big Ten 8th 16th / 29.0 points; 8 qualifiers
2021-22 Wisconsin 12-2 .857 Big Ten 8th 14th / 38.5 pounts; 9 qualifiers
2020-21 Wisconsin 1-6 .143 Big Ten 12th 23rd / 18.5 points; 4 qualifiers
2019-20 Wisconsin 11-6 .647 Big Ten 9th Canceled; 5 qualifiers
2018-19 Wisconsin 9-6 .600 Big Ten 7th 21st / 27 points; 6 qualifiers
Total 6th Year 41-28 .594 32 qualifiers
2017-18 South Dakota State 14-2 .875 Big 12 3rd 12th / 42.0 points
2016-17 South Dakota State 14-5 .737 Big 12 3rd 16th / 28.5 points
2015-16 South Dakota State 14-6 .700 Big 12 4th 5 qualifiers
2014-15 South Dakota State 11-8 .579 WWC 3rd 3 qualifiers
2013-14 South Dakota State 6-8 .429 WWC 5th 3 qualifiers
2012-13 South Dakota State 5-12 .294 WWC 5th 1 qualifier
Total 6 Years 64-41 .610
2008-09 Chattanooga 12-10 .545 Southern 1st T-52nd
2007-08 Chattanooga 11-6 .647 Southern 1st 37th
2006-07 Chattanooga 16-1 .941 Southern 1st 21st
Total 3 Years 39-17 .696
OVERALL 14th Year 144-86 .626

Ghetto · January 11, 2024, 09:11:27 PM

I couldn't agree more with the RTC comments above. I only hear through private messages here. There is some money going in and there's no public information of where that money is going.

There are no RTC athletes but the fundraising efforts continue.

MNbadger · January 12, 2024, 07:24:55 AM

"I have talked with numerous past RTC athletes and coaches and they have been very honest about what they think happened"

So what do they say happened in these instances?

Harris · January 12, 2024, 11:10:39 AM

Quote from: MNbadger on January 12, 2024, 07:24:55 AM"I have talked with numerous past RTC athletes and coaches and they have been very honest about what they think happened"

So what do they say happened in these instances?

It is not mine to share publicly. They are all on social media and have emails. Ask them why they left and most of them will tell you and some have posted publicly about certain issues if you follow them. Better yet, if they are an athlete, ask their parents. Ask the former women's RTC athletes how they felt when they were informed the week of a competition that they were shutting down and they had no where to train and no coaches anymore. Bono never said a word about the "why".

You are missing my point though. I want the UW and RTC staff to tell us what happened when big changes happen, not some fan on the internet. I don't want to hear it through the grapevine. Address the elephants in the room head on with your fan base and donors. It goes a long way to build trust and accountability and will lead to more financial support.

I understand things happen at every school and you will always have situations where people come and go for various reasons, but the number of issues have been unusually large over the past 6 years for the RTC and UW. Think about these changes and the lack of communication/transparency:

Evan Wick (Cal Poly)
Ethan Rotondo (Cal Poly)
Connor Brown (Missouri)
Kyle Burwick (Nebraska)
Austin Gomez (Michigan)
Greyson Clark (Purdue)
James Rowley (Purdue)
Hayden Copass (Purdue)
Ismael Ayoub (Nebraska?)
Laird Root (North Carolina)
Miguel Estrada (Iowa)
Michaela Beck (Iowa HWC)
Erin Golston (TWU)
Ronna Gross (Coaching at UWSP?)
Matt McDonough (Cornell DIII coach in Iowa)
Ben Askren
Sean Smalley (Works with UW ticket office)
Newt Smerchek (Helping out with high school wrestling Monona Grove McFarland, still listed on RTC site)

Who am I missing? That's quite a list for a five year period of time (18 people, 4 coaches/directors, and closing the women's RTC). You don't have to be a detective to understand there are issues. The question is, what are they doing in the future to overcome these types of issues? I think it starts with transparency and communication. Everyone knows there are issues, don't just ignore them publicly and let people speculate. We still haven't heard from Bono what happened with AWA. That was a big change when they lost Askren but he has taken shots at Bono publicly and Bono has never fought back. Why?

I understand the coaching staff is limited to what they can share about potential recruits and athletes on the roster but saying nothing about the issues is not working and hurts recruiting. At least give us the main cause of the issue without naming names and the path forward so we have confidence in where we are going. Many of us are sick of, "next year is the year." The results speak for themselves and the current staff needs to communicate openly the path forward IMO. I understand they don't have to share these things, but you can't ask for donations and expect people to give if you are experiencing these types of dramatic changes and don't say anything. It's just not a good look. Just the RTC issues alone are huge and we heard nothing.

I love this coaching staff and I want them to succeed but the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. The coaching staff needs to change the way they are doing things if they want to get to the next level. The coaching staff is made up of World class athletes who are great people. Taking that next step involves communicating on what happened in the past and providing a realistic plan towards success in the future to build back trust, help with recruiting, and increase financial support. Doing things the way they have always done them is not working in the new NIL environment of college sports.

Their social media presence is behind and they need outside help with this. If they can build the UW and RTC brand, then they add value to potential athletes NIL possibilities similar to what other schools have done. Right now, UW and the RTC have very little NIL value to a potential athlete and I would argue are actually a detriment. The exposure is just not there compared to UW's competitors. Who on the UW or RTC staff has this unique skill set? All I see is posting about results and upcoming matches. They need a world class social media expert who can help them build their brand and help with transparency and communication. Go look at the RTC website and then go look at the Penn State social media presence. We are talking amateurs trying to compete with professionals. If you follow this you will know Cael Sanderson hired Justin Basch to help him with this years ago before the success. Justin doesn't live near Penn State, never went to Penn state, but he did have a successful social media company. Look at Iowa State. They have Stalemates supporting them. Iowa has a huge fan base, Dan Gable and Spencer Lee. Nebraska is being touted by Willie Saylor all the time. Penn has Jordan Burroughs and Nebraska had him before. Missouri has Ben Askren. Minnesota has Gable plus the Pinnacle club. Michigan has Cliff Keen with a bunch of big names and social media exposure. The list goes on and on.

Wrestling Guru · January 12, 2024, 04:01:38 PM

Harris, I could not agree more with your posts. The lack transparency and success is something that needs to be addressed.

I want the badger wrestling program to be successful but right now it is not.

Ben Askren as head coach puts us top 5 in the next 5 years.

PAUL · January 12, 2024, 04:50:27 PM

Very alarming information when it's all stacked up like this - the list of names if fairly heartbreaking. I will say the transparency thing bothered me a few years back. I had a (small) monthly donation going directly to the program. I increased my small monthly donation - it was still small but I had faith that the team and program was on the rise. Then I heard somehow (not sure I recall how) that the guy who was sending out emails about the RTC - thank you notes, etc. - was no longer on the scene. I didn't know the guy nor did I have any specific loyalty to him, however it kinda raised a red flag that basically (to my knowledge) nothing was said. I stopped my donation - again it wasn't a lot but I wonder how many other people maybe did the same thing. Running a successful organization like this requires excellence in every area - fundraising, communications, PR, coaching, etc., etc. - and if stuff isn't getting done properly (or at all) the entire operation will suffer, there are no shortcuts. This can then prove to be fatal given the current competitive environment - maybe not quickly but gradually the organization begins a "death spiral" toward oblivion.

wrestlemania · January 12, 2024, 09:05:06 PM

Man you've just got to love these kinds of threads

We've been on the wrong track since they fired Andy Rein

Really? How many team titles did he coach, hmmm? I know he did help put UW on probation for a number of years that wrecked the program and had Barry Davis spend much of his early career cleaning up. But if Wisconsin ties are that important to you, perhaps Mitch Hull is available?

Ben Askren as head coach puts us top 5 in the next 5 years.

No, he puts UW on probation for five years. Unlike the club scene there are actual rules and regulations that college coaches have to follow and if you violate them, bad things can follow (as Andy Rein can attest to). Not that Ben would care

"I heard Bono on a podcast once say Covid derailed their momentum but every team/coach in the country was dealt the same hand and the top programs continue to excel and Covid was not a unique thing for UW"

But what was unique for UW was the onerous restrictions on public gatherings on the UW campus, the City of Madison and Dane County itself due to COVID that lasted to near 2022. Many other UW sports were hurt by these restrictions, wrestling included. I thought I had read here that Bono wanted to be able to use Askren's AWA facilities to train outside Madison which Ben insisted on charging the program for (and there might have been some other red tape involved in that scheme as well) which needless to say wrecked relations between the two parties irrevocably. So if you're thinking COVID-19 shouldn't have been that big of a deal, think again, at least as far as Wisconsin was concerned.

It is not mine to share publicly.

And yet you whine about transparency...

What are the "elephants" we're not dealing with here, hmmm?

Since you're not going to share with the rest of the class, Let me opine that I don't think I am wrong to believe that a lot of these disputes and departures, personal or otherwise, have do to money and support, the lack of which killed the women's RTC at UW from what I remember back at the time. If you don't have the money, you can't do much of anything and top wrestlers won't show up because they wish to actually eat while training full time and if you can't support them and their families, again, they won't show up. And if you don't have the money, you can't do things like hire a social media director (although I'm they could find some punk kid on campus who knows something about computers that would work cheap) the way other programs have done. It's that simple. And it may well be they won't attract anyone to train at their RTC until a sizeable kitty is built up over time, which is probably why you're donating while no one is training.

"Running a successful organization like this requires excellence in every area - fundraising, communications, PR, coaching, etc., etc. - and if stuff isn't getting done properly (or at all) the entire operation will suffer, there are no shortcuts"

Agreed but it also requires money too. Can't get around that. Excellence costs.

"We still haven't heard from Bono what happened with AWA. That was a big change when they lost Askren but he has taken shots at Bono publicly and Bono has never fought back. Why?

Because being a college wrestling coach at the D-I level is a 24/7 job and the last thing Bono has time to do is to get into spitting matches with Askren, so he has wisely avoided this. Nor are they going to issue press releases from people leaving stating "UW is too cheap to compete", or something along those lines.

Harris · January 12, 2024, 10:50:04 PM

Great points wrestlemania. Here are my responses for the ones I brought up:

"I heard Bono on a podcast once say Covid derailed their momentum but every team/coach in the country was dealt the same hand and the top programs continue to excel and Covid was not a unique thing for UW"

But what was unique for UW was the onerous restrictions on public gatherings on the UW campus, the City of Madison and Dane County itself due to COVID that lasted to near 2022. Many other UW sports were hurt by these restrictions, wrestling included. I thought I had read here that Bono wanted to be able to use Askren's AWA facilities to train outside Madison which Ben insisted on charging the program for (and there might have been some other red tape involved in that scheme as well) which needless to say wrecked relations between the two parties irrevocably. So if you're thinking COVID-19 shouldn't have been that big of a deal, think again, at least as far as Wisconsin was concerned.

I would disagree that UW had it worse than what happened at most schools. Just look at the Ivy League and you still see Cornell staying on top even when their head coach and NCAA runner up left for other schools and IVY wrestling taking a year off when other schools kept wrestling. Every school had to fight through this adversity and it is disingenuous to act like UW had some unique experience.

It is not mine to share publicly.

And yet you whine about transparency...

What are the "elephants" we're not dealing with here, hmmm?

Since you're not going to share with the rest of the class, Let me opine that I don't think I am wrong to believe that a lot of these disputes and departures, personal or otherwise, have do to money and support, the lack of which killed the women's RTC at UW from what I remember back at the time. If you don't have the money, you can't do much of anything and top wrestlers won't show up because they wish to actually eat while training full time and if you can't support them and their families, again, they won't show up. And if you don't have the money, you can't do things like hire a social media director (although I'm they could find some punk kid on campus who knows something about computers that would work cheap) the way other programs have done. It's that simple. And it may well be they won't attract anyone to train at their RTC until a sizeable kitty is built up over time, which is probably why you're donating while no one is training.

As I said above, ask them yourself. It's not mine to share publicly. I think we all know what the elephants are (McDonough, Smalley, Askren, Smerchek, Dropping Women's program, etc.). How did you hear about these things? From the coaching staff or from others on social media? I would rather hear it from the coach. It is my opinion that getting supporters to donate money is much easier when the coaching staff keeps the donors aware of what is going on. When you have 4 new RTC leaders in 5 years and discontinue the women's program without any communication, it is an issue that needs to be addressed with donors. To make matters worse, one of those former RTC coaches runs one of the top five high school clubs in the country and just happens to be within an hour of Madison. If money is the main issue, I think transparency and communication are great first steps to help solve the money problem as explained in my posts above.

As far as social media is concerned, it doesn't take a lot of money to be good at creating content and to build your brand. You don't need to hire someone full time as evidenced by what Basch solutions is doing for the NLWC at Penn State. He runs a full time media company and NLWC is just one of his many clients. I do like your idea of involving students to help as well. You made a joke about it but all it takes is the right person working with someone like Basch and you have a great start. If I am remembering correctly, I think Basch helped Gross with his social media presence as an athlete.

"We still haven't heard from Bono what happened with AWA. That was a big change when they lost Askren but he has taken shots at Bono publicly and Bono has never fought back. Why?

Because being a college wrestling coach at the D-I level is a 24/7 job and the last thing Bono has time to do is to get into spitting matches with Askren, so he has wisely avoided this. Nor are they going to issue press releases from people leaving stating "UW is too cheap to compete", or something along those lines.

Every college coach at the D-I level has to do the same job as Bono. Some are good with communication, some are not but I would argue the time spent is well worth it. How much time does it take to communicate to your donors what is happening when you make big changes? As far as Askren is concerned, I think it was unwise to not address the issues head on but I understand your point. I guess I would ask you, what does Bono have to lose at this point?

Your point about not putting out press releases every time someone leaves is missing my point. I am talking more about the RTC. Changing the leadership or cutting a program with no communication and then asking for financial support just doesn't make good business sense to me and ultimately hurts the UW wrestling program.
[/quote]

Wrestling Guru · January 13, 2024, 08:53:20 AM

Ben Askren as head coach puts us top 5 in the next 5 years.

"No, he puts UW on probation for five years. Unlike the club scene there are actual rules and regulations that college coaches have to follow and if you violate them, bad things can follow (as Andy Rein can attest to). Not that Ben would care

"

I guess I have two questions from your reply.

1. Why do you assume he would have us on probation? He has clearly competed at the highest level and never been in trouble for any allegations of illegal behavior. To assume that about someone is a direct shot at their character and quite frankly, incorrect.

2. Why are you on the Bono bandwagon? What has he done so well that should convince other Badger wrestling fans to continue to support him?

Lastly, where did the Monday videos go, the posts, the press conferences? As soon as the badgers started to get worse, Bono quit promoting the team... just an observation.

walden_hiker · January 13, 2024, 09:29:48 AM

Quote from: Wrestling Guru on January 13, 2024, 08:53:20 AMBen Askren as head coach puts us top 5 in the next 5 years.

"No, he puts UW on probation for five years. Unlike the club scene there are actual rules and regulations that college coaches have to follow and if you violate them, bad things can follow (as Andy Rein can attest to). Not that Ben would care "

I guess I have two questions from your reply.

1. Why do you assume he would have us on probation? He has clearly competed at the highest level and never been in trouble for any allegations of illegal behavior. To assume that about someone is a direct shot at their character and quite frankly, incorrect.

2. Why are you on the Bono bandwagon? What has he done so well that should convince other Badger wrestling fans to continue to support him?

Lastly, where did the Monday videos go, the posts, the press conferences? As soon as the badgers started to get worse, Bono quit promoting the team... just an observation.

Just not a true statement. The videos are now on Tuesdays via the badger den podcast. I actually like these much more because he goes much more in depth and provides a lot of the information people on this thread claim is not being communicated. Much more meaningful than the one minute jump around videos. For transparency, I am a badger fan with no ties to Bono. I want Bono to succeed because it means the badgers succeed. I have no insider knowledge but feel like I can answer many of the questions everyone is claiming is not transparent just by watching the many interviews that are out there. Bono and company are not going to individually call everyone up but they do invite you to ask questions and they generally answer them. Furthermore, do any coaches make a press release when a college student leaves the program and explain why a student leaves school?? Not going to happen!

Badgers pulled off a great win yesterday and here we go with the same topic, Bono vs Askren. This is getting pretty tired. This discussion has been had countless times.